Besides gorging when needed, I LERK virtually exclusively. I probably have more game time as LERK then any other alien class, except maybe gorg, in 2.0+. I also play NS alot, alothough on mostly pub servers so maybe im biased or whatever, but I consider myself to be an expert Lerk. I can often play an entire round of NS without dieing once as a Lerk, while still getting many kills, and **** of the COM. I can usually spend my first 32 res on Lerk+Redempt and then get enough RES from Kill to be the first on my team with 100 res. I usually stay Lerk though, I suck at ONOS/FADE compared to other players of similar experiance. Anyhoo, I feel that I have the experiance in Lerk to really say, Umbra sucks. PERIOD.
1) It sucks. It doesnt block enough or last long enough to be usefull.
2) If I do give umbra support, nobody uses it. NOBODY. I dont think I have ever seen a fellow alien intentionally use my umbra in 2.0+. Maybe they know it sucks, or they dont know how it works, but Im betting on the first. Its far easier for me to spike a bunch of offending marines to death than to try and do umbra support, and more effective.
3) Umbra is stationary, but Aliens are not. How in hell is a lerk supposed to umbra a bunch of running skulks, or a blinking FADE. Onos maybe, but at that point I may have Primal Scream which , in my opinion is better. It has a larger area of effect, lasts longer, and allows your freinds to do more damage to marines than umbra would protect them from. Umbra is a weapon I use only on wall of lames that are getting hammered, or if I am goofing around.
4) Based on my personnal experiances, Umbra is useless vs shotties. I mean completley useless. Regardless of how many pellets it currently stops, enough get through to make umbra's effects pretty much negligable.
5) Umbra is weak in 2.0+, but was strong in 1.04-, something between these would be nice...
6) Maybe its different on clan servers or whatever, but in my opinion pubs are the bread and butter of NS, and are the majority.
Let it be clear that this is not a flaming rant. I really dont care what happens to umbra in the long run, as Ive managed to do ok without it. So long as I dont lose spore and spike at first hive in the next updates Im cool with Lerk 100%.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueTorpeedo+Nov 12 2003, 08:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueTorpeedo @ Nov 12 2003, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So long as I dont lose spore and spike at first hive in the next updates Im cool with Lerk 100%. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I heard they are removing spike from 2.01. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I could be repeating misinformation, though.
<!--QuoteBegin--WarpZone+Nov 12 2003, 09:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WarpZone @ Nov 12 2003, 09:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--BlueTorpeedo+Nov 12 2003, 08:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueTorpeedo @ Nov 12 2003, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So long as I dont lose spore and spike at first hive in the next updates Im cool with Lerk 100%. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I heard they are removing spike from 2.01. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I could be repeating misinformation, though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah.. 2.1 currently has bite instead of spike.. Oh well. There have been many lerk bite kills VS jetpacks lately, so its all good. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Of course, it is beta and is subject to change. As for umbra, if it hasn't changed from 2.01 to 2.1, then its fine as it is. Umbra + lerk bite = no chance at all for the marine under attack. Also, as for the reason why Umbra only blocks while you are in it, instead of just blocking bullets that go through it, (I'm pretty sure someone brought this up earlier) that is easy. It is just too damn hard. Currently all the checks are done for the person being hit. It just goes "Okay, are you in umbra? Oh, you are? BLOCKED!" if it stopped all bullets passing through it, then it would have to check from the person shooting in such it would be more like "Are you firing at umbra? Are you sure? Wait, is the person in front or behind the umbra? oh.. I see? Um.. er.. blocked?" Yeah.. Basically you can't do that kind of check. Too prone to bugginess. Plus, you could just have lerks shoot umbra anywhere and be safe as long as it was some where between them and the marine.. Which causes balance issues.
cs does it with wooden doors and it works fine, there is also a similar penalty for shooting though an ally at an enemy, so evidently, shoot-through penalties cant be that hard to program on the HL engine. I dont see why umbra has to be different from any other hl entity when it comes to shoot-through.
Because it's a weapon, not a mapper entity? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I belive right now umbra creates a status effecting location, but im pretty sure that it could be made to be a mapper entity, it has been done with aliens structures already. (altough impulses are different then weapons)
maby im totally wrong though <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Swiftspear+Nov 13 2003, 06:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Nov 13 2003, 06:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cs does it with wooden doors and it works fine, there is also a similar penalty for shooting though an ally at an enemy, so evidently, shoot-through penalties cant be that hard to program on the HL engine. I dont see why umbra has to be different from any other hl entity when it comes to shoot-through. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This would be the borked half-arsed CS penetration your talking about ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm curious, how exactly did you go about testing this ? Was it with a mate on a private server ? Did you use pistols at close range ? Or an LMG from mid-range ? Just wondering ...
<!--QuoteBegin--gekigarion+Nov 13 2003, 07:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gekigarion @ Nov 13 2003, 07:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was just thinking one thing:
Good thing we pointed it out, but shouldn't this be in the bug forum? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh yeah, like that's an active forum.
Also, it isn't hard to program in umbra, I mean, look at 1.04... it worked great then, everyone knows that. It made you unkillable to weapons.
i dissagree, most pubs i playon lerks use umbra. after the initial hide in the vent and spore ip phase. ie 2hives, fades and onos come into play. lerks are essential at this time mainly as a confidence boost. they help coordinate attacks and increase the lifespan of all units.
UMBRA 'ing an onos will often make him go in. +will make him last longer, hopefully enough time to get out.
Heh Idk where you play, I face fades in 3-4 minutes of gamestart <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 13 2003, 08:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 13 2003, 08:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see much umbra on pubs. actually... I noticed in non-competitive games that, umbra is very rare....hmm <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, people noticed how badly it sucks
Before, I thought with 2/3's rate of coverage, it would make you 3 times the lerk, fade, onos, etc.
So if I had a team of 3 people with 100 res, instead of having them all go onos, I would ask for one lerk, and 2 onos. In theory, we'd be as tough as <b>6</b> friggen onos. But, that's wrong, SO WRONG, you are actually only getting 1 out of 3 bullets missing you, making you only as good as 3 onos, except you are only as tough as 3 onos... but not as much firepower as 3 onos. Wow... so cool... not.
Next time I won't tell pubbers false info, I'll ask for another onos or fade or whatever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm curious, how exactly did you go about testing this ? Was it with a mate on a private server ? Did you use pistols at close range ? Or an LMG from mid-range ? Just wondering ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i used my laptop + my normal pc and let a lerk attack all the time with umbra (backed up by three defense and three movement chambers / +adrenaline). then i build a turret with los to the defence chamber. the turret fires about 135 bullets in 2 minutes and thus i counted the hits and calculated the misses. this was more efficient than counting both: misses and hits. its damn difficult to note both at the same time. the first impressions were gained by pistol shots onto the lerk... its the same. there is no difference between buildings in umbra and aliens in umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> dissagree, most pubs i playon lerks use umbra. after the initial hide in the vent and spore ip phase.
...
therefore even 25% umbra still helps <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well umbra is mostly used by nubcakes that think it deals damage to marines or buildings. just don't think about playing on german pubs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
25% do help of course, but it makes it a horrible ability. it should be damn powerful one.
<!--QuoteBegin--rockst4r+Nov 12 2003, 04:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rockst4r @ Nov 12 2003, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks for reporting this. I passed it along to our QA lead (grepdashv) who will check to see if the problem still exists and will add it to our bug database so that we can be sure to fix it before 2.1 is released.
Max <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i guess my job is done... hopefully the are able to solve the problem.
thx a lot Max <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good, good.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
I will say what forlon says without being cynical
can you make umbra a more effective blocker that it currently is, having it be shootable like spores is a big advantage, but in it's nerfed state it is weak, please fix it or look into it
It should deffinitly block alot more than 25%, but didnt, a long time ago, used to block something like 7/8 bullets? but now, i never see umbra used, lerks just spam spores for kills
Nice one with the turrets. Do you get the same effect with someone shooting you with a pistol ? Because it could be a turret bug that effects lerks only !
Here's something for those of you who have never taken statistics, or simply have forgotten.
Let's start with an example: coin flipping. ~50% chance of getting either a heads or tails on any given coin toss. Does that mean you always get 5 heads and 5 tails if you flip 10 coins? No, of course not! There's a really high chance that you will get somewhere between an 8-2 and 2-8, which, at the boundaries, it would mean getting 80% of either heads or tails in this trial (not 50%).
Now, if we brought the number of coins flipped close to infinity, the actual recorded result would get closer and closer to 50%, which is what it should be. This, my friends, is the principle behind large sample sizes. In this case, it would take at least several hundred shots to get to a significant sample size, with which we could draw actual conclusions. There was nowhere close to enough in the initial experiment (which could have produced results between 80 some % and 50 some % very easily, and 25% uncommonly but realistically). On the 3rd page (I think) there was a similar trial with 300-some tries, and it was much closer to the target.
I'm not saying that the conclusion that something is borked with umbra is wrong, but I am saying that the way to got to that conclusion is flawed.
(Note: there's much more to statistics than this. I figured I lose half of you if I went into probability distributions and bell curves and standard deviation and...)
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 13 2003, 05:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 13 2003, 05:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see much umbra on pubs. actually... I noticed in non-competitive games that, umbra is very rare....hmm <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes.. and of course we all know competitive(vets/clannies) players know what's best when playing ns...
I kinda have my doubts about coin flips being exactly 50-50 anyways... thanks to the uneven mass distribution caused the designs etched in the 'head' and 'tail' side I've got a funny feeling I know why people usually opt for heads most of the time =P
<!--QuoteBegin--Silicon+Nov 13 2003, 02:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silicon @ Nov 13 2003, 02:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 13 2003, 05:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 13 2003, 05:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see much umbra on pubs. actually... I noticed in non-competitive games that, umbra is very rare....hmm <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes.. and of course we all know competitive(vets/clannies) players know what's best when playing ns... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, that's what <i>I'm</i> saying!
Comments
1) It sucks. It doesnt block enough or last long enough to be usefull.
2) If I do give umbra support, nobody uses it. NOBODY. I dont think I have ever seen a fellow alien intentionally use my umbra in 2.0+. Maybe they know it sucks, or they dont know how it works, but Im betting on the first. Its far easier for me to spike a bunch of offending marines to death than to try and do umbra support, and more effective.
3) Umbra is stationary, but Aliens are not. How in hell is a lerk supposed to umbra a bunch of running skulks, or a blinking FADE. Onos maybe, but at that point I may have Primal Scream which , in my opinion is better. It has a larger area of effect, lasts longer, and allows your freinds to do more damage to marines than umbra would protect them from. Umbra is a weapon I use only on wall of lames that are getting hammered, or if I am goofing around.
4) Based on my personnal experiances, Umbra is useless vs shotties. I mean completley useless. Regardless of how many pellets it currently stops, enough get through to make umbra's effects pretty much negligable.
5) Umbra is weak in 2.0+, but was strong in 1.04-, something between these would be nice...
6) Maybe its different on clan servers or whatever, but in my opinion pubs are the bread and butter of NS, and are the majority.
Let it be clear that this is not a flaming rant. I really dont care what happens to umbra in the long run, as Ive managed to do ok without it. So long as I dont lose spore and spike at first hive in the next updates Im cool with Lerk 100%.
I heard they are removing spike from 2.01. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I could be repeating misinformation, though.
I heard they are removing spike from 2.01. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I could be repeating misinformation, though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah.. 2.1 currently has bite instead of spike.. Oh well. There have been many lerk bite kills VS jetpacks lately, so its all good. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course, it is beta and is subject to change.
As for umbra, if it hasn't changed from 2.01 to 2.1, then its fine as it is. Umbra + lerk bite = no chance at all for the marine under attack.
Also, as for the reason why Umbra only blocks while you are in it, instead of just blocking bullets that go through it, (I'm pretty sure someone brought this up earlier) that is easy. It is just too damn hard. Currently all the checks are done for the person being hit. It just goes "Okay, are you in umbra? Oh, you are? BLOCKED!" if it stopped all bullets passing through it, then it would have to check from the person shooting in such it would be more like "Are you firing at umbra? Are you sure? Wait, is the person in front or behind the umbra? oh.. I see? Um.. er.. blocked?" Yeah.. Basically you can't do that kind of check. Too prone to bugginess. Plus, you could just have lerks shoot umbra anywhere and be safe as long as it was some where between them and the marine.. Which causes balance issues.
maby im totally wrong though <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
This would be the borked half-arsed CS penetration your talking about ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Good thing we pointed it out, but shouldn't this be in the bug forum?
Good thing we pointed it out, but shouldn't this be in the bug forum? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yeah, like that's an active forum.
Also, it isn't hard to program in umbra, I mean, look at 1.04... it worked great then, everyone knows that. It made you unkillable to weapons.
after the initial hide in the vent and spore ip phase.
ie 2hives, fades and onos come into play.
lerks are essential at this time mainly as a confidence boost.
they help coordinate attacks and increase the lifespan of all units.
UMBRA 'ing an onos will often make him go in. +will make him last longer,
hopefully enough time to get out.
therefore even 25% umbra still helps
Yeah, people noticed how badly it sucks
Before, I thought with 2/3's rate of coverage, it would make you 3 times the lerk, fade, onos, etc.
So if I had a team of 3 people with 100 res, instead of having them all go onos, I would ask for one lerk, and 2 onos. In theory, we'd be as tough as <b>6</b> friggen onos. But, that's wrong, SO WRONG, you are actually only getting 1 out of 3 bullets missing you, making you only as good as 3 onos, except you are only as tough as 3 onos... but not as much firepower as 3 onos. Wow... so cool... not.
Next time I won't tell pubbers false info, I'll ask for another onos or fade or whatever.
Given 2/3 probabillity of blocking a hit the probabillity of ending up with the result 52 hits out of 69 is roughly 1 in 10^12(one in a trillion).
In 98% of cases you should end up with 15 to 32 hits out of 69 shots fired.
umbra only works at 1/3 blocking ratio.
which is vastly different to what is claimed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i used my laptop + my normal pc and let a lerk attack all the time with umbra (backed up by three defense and three movement chambers / +adrenaline). then i build a turret with los to the defence chamber. the turret fires about 135 bullets in 2 minutes and thus i counted the hits and calculated the misses. this was more efficient than counting both: misses and hits. its damn difficult to note both at the same time. the first impressions were gained by pistol shots onto the lerk... its the same. there is no difference between buildings in umbra and aliens in umbra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> dissagree, most pubs i playon lerks use umbra.
after the initial hide in the vent and spore ip phase.
...
therefore even 25% umbra still helps <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well umbra is mostly used by nubcakes that think it deals damage to marines or buildings. just don't think about playing on german pubs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
25% do help of course, but it makes it a horrible ability. it should be damn powerful one.
Max <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i guess my job is done... hopefully the are able to solve the problem.
thx a lot Max <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good, good.
can you make umbra a more effective blocker that it currently is, having it be shootable like spores is a big advantage, but in it's nerfed state it is weak, please fix it or look into it
Let's start with an example: coin flipping. ~50% chance of getting either a heads or tails on any given coin toss. Does that mean you always get 5 heads and 5 tails if you flip 10 coins? No, of course not! There's a really high chance that you will get somewhere between an 8-2 and 2-8, which, at the boundaries, it would mean getting 80% of either heads or tails in this trial (not 50%).
Now, if we brought the number of coins flipped close to infinity, the actual recorded result would get closer and closer to 50%, which is what it should be. This, my friends, is the principle behind large sample sizes. In this case, it would take at least several hundred shots to get to a significant sample size, with which we could draw actual conclusions. There was nowhere close to enough in the initial experiment (which could have produced results between 80 some % and 50 some % very easily, and 25% uncommonly but realistically). On the 3rd page (I think) there was a similar trial with 300-some tries, and it was much closer to the target.
I'm not saying that the conclusion that something is borked with umbra is wrong, but I am saying that the way to got to that conclusion is flawed.
(Note: there's much more to statistics than this. I figured I lose half of you if I went into probability distributions and bell curves and standard deviation and...)
yes.. and of course we all know competitive(vets/clannies) players know what's best when playing ns...
if you've taken statistics you will realize this and can even calculate it
yes.. and of course we all know competitive(vets/clannies) players know what's best when playing ns... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that's what <i>I'm</i> saying!
yes.. and of course we all know competitive(vets/clannies) players know what's best when playing ns... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that's what <i>I'm</i> saying! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hahahaha