if they charged per hour or whatever that would go against what they really want... they want you to be hooked and keep paying. By punishing you for being an addict they're shooting themselves in the monetary foot. Doing it monthly rather than timebased keeps their hardcores hooked and playing and as long as they're shooting up, they're paying <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
~frowns at liku~ If I met a bot I logged it off, reported it or teleported it to the monster pit ><
gem: I didnt say charge per hour, I said give me all the hours that are in a month, or some thing close to that. That way I dont feel ripped off when I pay $10 ang get 8 hours of gaming done that month
Hmm, I wonder..... what is it that p2p offers that makes it "worth" itself?
I mean there's RPG JK2 servers, so its not the opportunity for roleplay (BBoards and MUDs are usually free too). Its not constant upgrades, because patches should be free. Could any claim that they add to the universe you play in (ie not a patch or expansion pack, but proper updated storylines and plots) ??
Just wondering what sets those big mplayer games from the others out there.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 11 2003, 05:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 11 2003, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ~frowns at liku~ If I met a bot I logged it off, reported it or teleported it to the monster pit >< <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the best part, I was reported like there was no tomorrow, I came home from school... and he was still happily killing and stealing everyone's loot. I just played the game like a 3D Chatroom with a purpose.
if you charge it every 720 hours it's still an hourly rate, it's just the 'hour' is a lot bigger ^^;
As for what sets them apart from all else at the moment it's the fact it's MMO... that's it really. Talk about 'evolving and changing' all you want but none of the games really do it. They just get expansions every now and then. If they really wanted to back that crud up they'd have things like the animal population and stuff changing based on what players do. If people go about casting fire all the time the monsters would slowly build up a fire resistance... that would be evolving and changing =/ They seriously need to start putting in stuff that changes because of player actions instead of slapping some new stuff in every now and then and labelling it 'evolution'
<b>Liku edit:</b> as for botting I know reporting didn't work so I didn't resort to it much... chances are if your bot ever bumped into me I teleported it to the lutie pen (no way out without fly/moth wings) or got logged out because of rather silly security hole left in the bot program meaning you could whisper certain things to them and take them over =P
Nothing wrong with treating it like a chatroom, but botting doesn't come under that... it comes under being a lazy, selfish pig with no regard for others.
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Nov 11 2003, 08:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 11 2003, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Evercrack, the scourge of free time everywhere.
Hmm, I wonder..... what is it that p2p offers that makes it "worth" itself?
I mean there's RPG JK2 servers, so its not the opportunity for roleplay (BBoards and MUDs are usually free too). Its not constant upgrades, because patches should be free. Could any claim that they add to the universe you play in (ie not a patch or expansion pack, but proper updated storylines and plots) ??
Just wondering what sets those big mplayer games from the others out there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Add a point to this:
Its not for the PK. I hope. PK generally appeals to those who enjoy having skilled fights. Just having stacked equipment and stats isnt skill. Jedi Knight everyone is set to the same bar, everyone has the same opportunity to win. The sad truth is the person who spends more time online in a MMORPG is going to win 99% of the time.
exactly... there's no 'roleplaying' really half the time and no skill that's for sure. It's really just a stack up for how much of your life you've wasted on it.
<b>Super Saiyan Neo Sephiroth:</b> "OMG!!! I SPENT LIKE 208409380843 OWARZ ON TEH GAME!!! THAT MAEKZ ME TEH LEET PERSUN!!!"
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 11 2003, 07:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 11 2003, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's really just a stack up for how much of your life you've wasted on it.
<b>Super Saiyan Neo Sephiroth:</b> "OMG!!! I SPENT LIKE 208409380843 OWARZ ON TEH GAME!!! THAT MAEKZ ME TEH LEET PERSUN!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But this can be applied to every game everywhere, not just pay-to-play games. People spend hours and hours in games like Warcraft and Counter Strike and even Natural Selection, its all just a matter of prefference.
Unfortunately this thread seems to have devolved into "Lets bash pay-to-play games".
What ever happened to doing what we do, and letting others do what they do? Live and let live, not live and bash-everyone-else's-ways-of-living.
not really grimm... NS is <b>you</b> improving. It takes skill to get good. You could play for hours just mucking about and barely improve or go super intense and learn a lot in a short time. Point is it's personal improvement instead of just a bunch of silly numbers going up over time. Same goes for CS. Even warcraft is like that except it's your strategic reasoning and planning that improve.
In the end you're no better in an MMORPG than when you started. The only real difference is your numbers are bigger. That's a waste of time. Improving your mental-processes or hand-eye coordination is time well spent. I guess I can't shout too loudly because some people enjoy it and if that's what they enjoy then fine but I don't like the pitfall the industry is falling into that makes them think all MMORPGs have to be so mind-numblingly unskilled and uninteractive.
the reason we even got onto this is because these are the only type of pay to play games out there really with a few small exceptions (WWII online and planetside maybe). If there were some genuinely innovative and fun games people would probably be more likely to pay to play but while they constantly churn out the same drivel with new license names plastered over the treadmills I still think pay to play will be a curse word to many gamers out there <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Nov 11 2003, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Nov 11 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are some pay to play RPGs or whatnot that are decent, then there are are other games that just sucked.
WW2 Online, pay money to buy game,
Take game home and cant play it b/c its a laggy, buggy, poor looking POS, sure they wont hcarge you until the numerous and many update patches come out and when they do its still a pos. And by then you cant return it anyways.
Thats y you should at least wait a long time to buy game to see how it turns out, byt then your behind everyone lol. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which version are you playing?
The newly released 1.10 looks great!
And yes WWII Online had a bad release, but that was what? 2 and a half years ago. So why do you think they are STILL pacthing the game?
Becuase there are a lot of people who play it, and enjoy it, like me.
In other words: Don't rag on my game <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 11 2003, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 11 2003, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS is <b>you</b> improving. It takes skill to get good. You could play for hours just mucking about and barely improve or go super intense and learn a lot in a short time. Point is it's personal improvement instead of just a bunch of silly numbers going up over time. Same goes for CS. Even warcraft is like that except it's your strategic reasoning and planning that improve. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It also depends on what type of MMO it is. People can improve their self in Planetside because it is very much an FPS, so they could improve strategies and skills there.
I understand about the whole RPGs and MMORPGs though, and how people are running around with characters to level up and such. (I still remember that discussion from irc a while back).
You pay for your entertainment. Spend what you like, where you like.
Also, RPGs are all about stats! not "skill" in the FPS sense of the word. Dont pay for an MMO<b>RPG</b> If you cant stand the stats system.
I am waiting for something between an RPG and and FPS (Prolly try Planetside soon) Though, if your gonna spend hours building a character , I think its only fair that you have something to show for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Parasite+Nov 11 2003, 11:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Parasite @ Nov 11 2003, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, RPGs are all about stats! not "skill" in the FPS sense of the word. Dont pay for an MMO<b>RPG</b> If you cant stand the stats system. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd have to go into this long lecture about what I really mean when I bash the stats system, but basically I see too many RPGs that focus specifically on upgrading your character and getting better items and being the best just to be the best. Basically, the games turn into calculator games, which detract from what an RPG really is: A Role Playing Game. When I want to play a role of a character, I want to learn about the area that I'm in and the people that are there and why I have to go on these quests, rather than just "I'm so close to levelling I'ma go kill stuff for five hours".
Story is always most important in an RPG, but many games forget that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Solki+Nov 12 2003, 01:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Solki @ Nov 12 2003, 01:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why do you people moan about paying to play a game.
Ok lets see...
A trip to the cinema:
£6 for tickets £3 for food A couple more for other stuff.
Total: £10ish Entertainment: 1 - 2hours
A Pay to play game:
£10ish a month.
Entertainment: up to a month.
Make your own decisions. And dont forget... The money goes to hosting the servers and peoples salaries...
Thxkbai <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Excuse me, but your argument is absolute bunk. The point is not what other things in the world you have to pay continuously to use. The point is that, given the choice between paying once for a game and paying many times for a game, given that the games are equally good, no sane person will pick the game where they pay repeatedly. The only reason people DO is because these games are deliberately designed to be addictive.
You can buy DVDs, right? You're suggesting that the fact that you can purchase a DVD once and watch it as many times as you like is silly because you have to pay more than once to see it at the movies...? That's what your argument equates to.
I dislike these kind of games. Not a single one has offered anything I've found interesting. They're designed to take your money, take your time, and keep you playing for as long as possible.
One interesting alternative is the system implemented by <a href='http://www.achaea.com/' target='_blank'>Achaea</a>, an excellent MUD. The game has two kinds of currency: gold, which is dropped by monsters, used to buy most generic items and used in basic trade between players; and credits, which can be converted into "lessons" (skill points), used to purchase very high-end abilities and items. Credits can be bought for gold from people who possess them, awarded as prizes by Divine beings, or purchased with real money online. What makes this so interesting is that Achaea is not purely PK based, nor purely monster hunting based, nor purely RPing. That means that someone who purchases credits can have a much more powerful character than someone who does not, but that only matters if both the players are PK'ers.
like grimm said, stats don't make an RPG. They were something once introduced back in the pen and paper days to help DMs out when they had to make decisions but instead of just being a helpful guideline they've become this horrible monster that's dug it's roots through the games and warped what it means to be an RPG. RPGs don't need stats... it might surprise you but zelda is a perfectly good example of a stat-less rpg and it's <b>fun</b> =3
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I sometimes wish Morrowind was an MMORPG, just because I enjoy it immensely. It just really seems to work well for one. The battle system is great, and the levelling/stat system doesn't really require you to go killing things, just so long as your major/minor skills are being used, of course, that would probably need to be changed slightly. Hell, the world could be considered larger than any MMORPG I've personally played anyway, and the expansions make it even more so. I'd be more than willing to p2p if it was one.
RO, while a decent game (with good graphics...So I'm a sprite ****, sue me.), it just comes down to who has the best equip slotted with the best cards. Skill doesn't come into it at all. Getting people going "OMG I pwn yuo all in PvP LOL" is so annoying. Of course you're gonna win if you have full +6 to +9 armour and weapons, a thara frog shield (-50% damage from demi-humans), a weapon with several hydra cards (+20% damage to demi-humans), or what have you.
Gravity are also major **** and neglect the international servers, but that's neither here nor there. Either way, most p2p MMORPG games you'll find won't really be worth it, unless the emphasis isn't on the underlying numbers. Those kind of games are just glorified chat rooms.
yup, the only reason RO came up though was it's payment method. It might be very pretty and friendly with some interesting areas to explore but it still has the horrible number crunching in the background and brain-killing level treadmills inherent to all MMORPGs. The payment method of a free game but with pay to play to actually go on it was more interesting considering most people here were complaining of buying the game <b>then</b> paying a monthly fee. I was asking if taking the price of the game out of the equation like gravity did would change their minds (assuming the game was worth paying for monthly of course ^~ )
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 12 2003, 08:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 12 2003, 08:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yup, the only reason RO came up though was it's payment method. It might be very pretty and friendly with some interesting areas to explore but it still has the horrible number crunching in the background and brain-killing level treadmills inherent to all MMORPGs. The payment method of a free game but with pay to play to actually go on it was more interesting considering most people here were complaining of buying the game <b>then</b> paying a monthly fee. I was asking if taking the price of the game out of the equation like gravity did would change their minds (assuming the game was worth paying for monthly of course ^~ )<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't paticularly mind the idea of paying for the game first, so long as it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as a "single purchase" game, ideally only costing as much as manufacture and s&h of the CD itself (ie. ~£3-10). You'll find most small company MMORPGs are handled the same way as RO was (downloadable client instead of purchased). <a href='http://www.ragnarokonline.com' target='_blank'>Ragnarok Online</a>, <a href='http://pristontale.com' target='_blank'>Priston Tale</a> and <a href='http://www.shininglore.com' target='_blank'>Shining Lore</a> (wonder whatever happened to the international beta of that? It kinda...didn't happen or something) are all examples (though PT is so monotonously boring...)
But having to pay for a game that costs the same as any regular one, with a monthly fee on top? No thanks.
I can't get into Diablo II anymore... never have since PSO =/
lol seph ^^ PT hasn't hit pay to play yet has it? As for shining lore another company took over it's production and knowing the way things go it's probably korean-only now so we'll never see it again. But yeah... I don't mind pay to play in itself as long as I think it's worth paying for <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Main trouble in P2P games for me is called Pain2Pay. Its not that I would mind paying 2-5€ for playing masterful creation of art in web, thats not going to be much even in full year. The problem itself is paying method. Credit card is very rare around here and wouldnt myself even afford that in student-budget. Cheque itself costs around 10€ if I recall right, plus the 2€ for the game. Havent never tried PayPal, but theres just got to be some problem with that too. Multinational money transferring is not fun. And most P2P games are quite boring too, they have to be directed for biggest mass of humans possible - and big masses like their games simple and with top 500 list. And what else would take longer than simply raising experience and level-cap to ridiculous hights and challenging 5000 peeps to get there. They play and pay happily ever after and never get bored when even slightest change is welcomed open hearted in their simple mind <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> And again, theres is couple/one game which I would be ready to pay if the paying method itself wouldnt take months and lot of effort plus triple the money they want actually.
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 12 2003, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 12 2003, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> like grimm said, stats don't make an RPG. They were something once introduced back in the pen and paper days to help DMs out when they had to make decisions but instead of just being a helpful guideline they've become this horrible monster that's dug it's roots through the games and warped what it means to be an RPG. RPGs don't need stats... it might surprise you but zelda is a perfectly good example of a stat-less rpg and it's <b>fun</b> =3
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> However off topic that may be, it's right. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> The thing is though, if you get a group of people in a game like Diablo 2, or NwN, and have decent chars that could take a beating/deal dmg back it's pretty fun to run into the harder parts of the game just to come out by the skin of your teeth. Also I played on an NwN server once where the DM gave out exp for RPing and other things which was helpful since it'd take hours to level unless you did a ton of quests, which took a long time to complete.
I mean I don't mind p2p, and I'll likely get into it after my next PC upgrade, but the fact is I'd like to know WHAT I'm paying for.
I mean MUDs are free, and I can login for some moderate RPG or more likely 4 hours of going to Sundhaven in order to level up by killing every single thing in the zone.
I can do that for free, I'd rather not buy a game plus X amount of cash per month only to see snazzy graphics of people wiping out whole zones so they can level up.
I'm not bashing, just trying to raise a valid point. What ARE you paying for?
<!--QuoteBegin--Grimm+Nov 12 2003, 06:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grimm @ Nov 12 2003, 06:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Story is always most important in an RPG, but many games forget that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but think about how RPG stories are usually told, they usually focus on a single character and his/her plight. Avenging a loved ones death, finding the sacred item to save the world, unravel the mystery to save the world etc. Theyre all very linear, quest after quest gameplay, even though a clever bit of game design covers that up, there is still a great deal of building a character up to a point they can fight the next boss, next set of enemies, talk to the oracle, obtain the new item or new magic spell.
Most RPG's are about "the one". The one who becomes king, the one who saves the world, the one who didnt know he was the one and so on. How can you apply such a story to a thousand people? Not everyone can be "the one", and if everyone has equal chance to be the one, what happens when someone becomes the one? All you can really do is give players an immersive environment and a rich history, and allow them to affect the world in whatever way possible.
Of course the game becomes increasingly dificult, and players need to build up in one way or another to play at a harder level. Otherwise, theres no new challenges, the game becomes stagnant after a while.
I dont think its the games that forget about story over stats, I think its the players.
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 12 2003, 11:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 12 2003, 11:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> like grimm said, stats don't make an RPG. They were something once introduced back in the pen and paper days to help DMs out when they had to make decisions but instead of just being a helpful guideline they've become this horrible monster that's dug it's roots through the games and warped what it means to be an RPG. RPGs don't need stats... it might surprise you but zelda is a perfectly good example of a stat-less rpg and it's <b>fun</b> =3
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zelda? Replace stats with Rupees, items....new weapons etc. You still have to "level up" in a very linear fashion to go on to the next challenge. You have to beat the dragon with the sword so you can get the boomerang so you can beat the rhino etc.
If you apply that to an MMORPG you still have the same problem that stats bring about. Not everyone can be Link, but nearly everyone will try to be.
<!--QuoteBegin--Parasite+Nov 12 2003, 03:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Parasite @ Nov 12 2003, 03:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Nov 12 2003, 11:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Nov 12 2003, 11:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> like grimm said, stats don't make an RPG. They were something once introduced back in the pen and paper days to help DMs out when they had to make decisions but instead of just being a helpful guideline they've become this horrible monster that's dug it's roots through the games and warped what it means to be an RPG. RPGs don't need stats... it might surprise you but zelda is a perfectly good example of a stat-less rpg and it's <b>fun</b> =3
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Zelda? Replace stats with Rupees, items....new weapons etc. You still have to "level up" in a very linear fashion to go on to the next challenge. You have to beat the dragon with the sword so you can get the boomerang so you can beat the rhino etc.
If you apply that to an MMORPG you still have the same problem that stats bring about. Not everyone can be Link, but nearly everyone will try to be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, you could have stats but they wouldn't show/you couldn't edit them, instead they'd go up slowly as you do stuff and your character changes and gets stronger. Like lets say you do something that uses dexterity or agility, and pass it, your agility/dex would be closer to "leveling" or it would "level". Same with skills, the more you excersize that skill, the better it would get till you reach a limit depending on how your current character is.
Trust me, I managed to be a Journeyman Swordsman. That's 75% in swordsman. I spent my entire time walking around, killing things. About 40-60 hours. If it moved, it died.
<!--QuoteBegin--Smoke Nova+Nov 12 2003, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Smoke Nova @ Nov 12 2003, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> which encourages botting.
That's what UO does Deronok. it's bloody boring.
Trust me, I managed to be a Journeyman Swordsman. That's 75% in swordsman. I spent my entire time walking around, killing things. About 40-60 hours. If it moved, it died. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why GM/Admins are important, to stop botting and such, as well as to make random events to keep the game going.
For me with EverQuest, it was definitely worth the $60 I spent merely on the P2P fees.
For the first 5 months I played, it was the best gaming I'd ever had. The last month I felt it getting stale, but regardless, exploring the world and levelling up was hella fun for me, along with the social aspect of the game.
P2P really is just a matter of preference, depends on how much you like the game.
Comments
~frowns at liku~ If I met a bot I logged it off, reported it or teleported it to the monster pit ><
Hmm, I wonder..... what is it that p2p offers that makes it "worth" itself?
I mean there's RPG JK2 servers, so its not the opportunity for roleplay (BBoards and MUDs are usually free too). Its not constant upgrades, because patches should be free. Could any claim that they add to the universe you play in (ie not a patch or expansion pack, but proper updated storylines and plots) ??
Just wondering what sets those big mplayer games from the others out there.
That's the best part, I was reported like there was no tomorrow, I came home from school... and he was still happily killing and stealing everyone's loot. I just played the game like a 3D Chatroom with a purpose.
As for what sets them apart from all else at the moment it's the fact it's MMO... that's it really. Talk about 'evolving and changing' all you want but none of the games really do it. They just get expansions every now and then. If they really wanted to back that crud up they'd have things like the animal population and stuff changing based on what players do. If people go about casting fire all the time the monsters would slowly build up a fire resistance... that would be evolving and changing =/
They seriously need to start putting in stuff that changes because of player actions instead of slapping some new stuff in every now and then and labelling it 'evolution'
<b>Liku edit:</b> as for botting I know reporting didn't work so I didn't resort to it much... chances are if your bot ever bumped into me I teleported it to the lutie pen (no way out without fly/moth wings) or got logged out because of rather silly security hole left in the bot program meaning you could whisper certain things to them and take them over =P
Nothing wrong with treating it like a chatroom, but botting doesn't come under that... it comes under being a lazy, selfish pig with no regard for others.
Hmm, I wonder..... what is it that p2p offers that makes it "worth" itself?
I mean there's RPG JK2 servers, so its not the opportunity for roleplay (BBoards and MUDs are usually free too). Its not constant upgrades, because patches should be free. Could any claim that they add to the universe you play in (ie not a patch or expansion pack, but proper updated storylines and plots) ??
Just wondering what sets those big mplayer games from the others out there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add a point to this:
Its not for the PK. I hope. PK generally appeals to those who enjoy having skilled fights. Just having stacked equipment and stats isnt skill. Jedi Knight everyone is set to the same bar, everyone has the same opportunity to win. The sad truth is the person who spends more time online in a MMORPG is going to win 99% of the time.
<b>Super Saiyan Neo Sephiroth:</b> "OMG!!! I SPENT LIKE 208409380843 OWARZ ON TEH GAME!!! THAT MAEKZ ME TEH LEET PERSUN!!!"
<b>Super Saiyan Neo Sephiroth:</b> "OMG!!! I SPENT LIKE 208409380843 OWARZ ON TEH GAME!!! THAT MAEKZ ME TEH LEET PERSUN!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this can be applied to every game everywhere, not just pay-to-play games. People spend hours and hours in games like Warcraft and Counter Strike and even Natural Selection, its all just a matter of prefference.
Unfortunately this thread seems to have devolved into "Lets bash pay-to-play games".
What ever happened to doing what we do, and letting others do what they do? Live and let live, not live and bash-everyone-else's-ways-of-living.
In the end you're no better in an MMORPG than when you started. The only real difference is your numbers are bigger. That's a waste of time. Improving your mental-processes or hand-eye coordination is time well spent. I guess I can't shout too loudly because some people enjoy it and if that's what they enjoy then fine but I don't like the pitfall the industry is falling into that makes them think all MMORPGs have to be so mind-numblingly unskilled and uninteractive.
the reason we even got onto this is because these are the only type of pay to play games out there really with a few small exceptions (WWII online and planetside maybe). If there were some genuinely innovative and fun games people would probably be more likely to pay to play but while they constantly churn out the same drivel with new license names plastered over the treadmills I still think pay to play will be a curse word to many gamers out there <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
WW2 Online, pay money to buy game,
Take game home and cant play it b/c its a laggy, buggy, poor looking POS, sure they wont hcarge you until the numerous and many update patches come out and when they do its still a pos. And by then you cant return it anyways.
Thats y you should at least wait a long time to buy game to see how it turns out, byt then your behind everyone lol. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which version are you playing?
The newly released 1.10 looks great!
And yes WWII Online had a bad release, but that was what? 2 and a half years ago. So why do you think they are STILL pacthing the game?
Becuase there are a lot of people who play it, and enjoy it, like me.
In other words: Don't rag on my game <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and P2P is worth it if you like the game.
It also depends on what type of MMO it is. People can improve their self in Planetside because it is very much an FPS, so they could improve strategies and skills there.
I understand about the whole RPGs and MMORPGs though, and how people are running around with characters to level up and such. (I still remember that discussion from irc a while back).
Also, RPGs are all about stats! not "skill" in the FPS sense of the word. Dont pay for an MMO<b>RPG</b> If you cant stand the stats system.
I am waiting for something between an RPG and and FPS (Prolly try Planetside soon) Though, if your gonna spend hours building a character , I think its only fair that you have something to show for it.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd have to go into this long lecture about what I really mean when I bash the stats system, but basically I see too many RPGs that focus specifically on upgrading your character and getting better items and being the best just to be the best. Basically, the games turn into calculator games, which detract from what an RPG really is: A Role Playing Game. When I want to play a role of a character, I want to learn about the area that I'm in and the people that are there and why I have to go on these quests, rather than just "I'm so close to levelling I'ma go kill stuff for five hours".
Story is always most important in an RPG, but many games forget that.
Ok lets see...
A trip to the cinema:
£6 for tickets
£3 for food
A couple more for other stuff.
Total: £10ish
Entertainment: 1 - 2hours
A Pay to play game:
£10ish a month.
Entertainment: up to a month.
Make your own decisions. And dont forget... The money goes to hosting the servers and peoples salaries...
Thxkbai <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me, but your argument is absolute bunk. The point is not what other things in the world you have to pay continuously to use. The point is that, given the choice between paying once for a game and paying many times for a game, given that the games are equally good, no sane person will pick the game where they pay repeatedly. The only reason people DO is because these games are deliberately designed to be addictive.
You can buy DVDs, right? You're suggesting that the fact that you can purchase a DVD once and watch it as many times as you like is silly because you have to pay more than once to see it at the movies...? That's what your argument equates to.
I dislike these kind of games. Not a single one has offered anything I've found interesting. They're designed to take your money, take your time, and keep you playing for as long as possible.
One interesting alternative is the system implemented by <a href='http://www.achaea.com/' target='_blank'>Achaea</a>, an excellent MUD. The game has two kinds of currency: gold, which is dropped by monsters, used to buy most generic items and used in basic trade between players; and credits, which can be converted into "lessons" (skill points), used to purchase very high-end abilities and items. Credits can be bought for gold from people who possess them, awarded as prizes by Divine beings, or purchased with real money online. What makes this so interesting is that Achaea is not purely PK based, nor purely monster hunting based, nor purely RPing. That means that someone who purchases credits can have a much more powerful character than someone who does not, but that only matters if both the players are PK'ers.
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
RO, while a decent game (with good graphics...So I'm a sprite ****, sue me.), it just comes down to who has the best equip slotted with the best cards. Skill doesn't come into it at all. Getting people going "OMG I pwn yuo all in PvP LOL" is so annoying. Of course you're gonna win if you have full +6 to +9 armour and weapons, a thara frog shield (-50% damage from demi-humans), a weapon with several hydra cards (+20% damage to demi-humans), or what have you.
Gravity are also major **** and neglect the international servers, but that's neither here nor there. Either way, most p2p MMORPG games you'll find won't really be worth it, unless the emphasis isn't on the underlying numbers. Those kind of games are just glorified chat rooms.
I don't paticularly mind the idea of paying for the game first, so long as it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as a "single purchase" game, ideally only costing as much as manufacture and s&h of the CD itself (ie. ~£3-10). You'll find most small company MMORPGs are handled the same way as RO was (downloadable client instead of purchased). <a href='http://www.ragnarokonline.com' target='_blank'>Ragnarok Online</a>, <a href='http://pristontale.com' target='_blank'>Priston Tale</a> and <a href='http://www.shininglore.com' target='_blank'>Shining Lore</a> (wonder whatever happened to the international beta of that? It kinda...didn't happen or something) are all examples (though PT is so monotonously boring...)
But having to pay for a game that costs the same as any regular one, with a monthly fee on top? No thanks.
lol seph ^^
PT hasn't hit pay to play yet has it? As for shining lore another company took over it's production and knowing the way things go it's probably korean-only now so we'll never see it again.
But yeah... I don't mind pay to play in itself as long as I think it's worth paying for <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Its not that I would mind paying 2-5€ for playing masterful creation of art in web, thats not going to be much even in full year. The problem itself is paying method. Credit card is very rare around here and wouldnt myself even afford that in student-budget. Cheque itself costs around 10€ if I recall right, plus the 2€ for the game. Havent never tried PayPal, but theres just got to be some problem with that too. Multinational money transferring is not fun.
And most P2P games are quite boring too, they have to be directed for biggest mass of humans possible - and big masses like their games simple and with top 500 list. And what else would take longer than simply raising experience and level-cap to ridiculous hights and challenging 5000 peeps to get there. They play and pay happily ever after and never get bored when even slightest change is welcomed open hearted in their simple mind <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And again, theres is couple/one game which I would be ready to pay if the paying method itself wouldnt take months and lot of effort plus triple the money they want actually.
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
However off topic that may be, it's right. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The thing is though, if you get a group of people in a game like Diablo 2, or NwN, and have decent chars that could take a beating/deal dmg back it's pretty fun to run into the harder parts of the game just to come out by the skin of your teeth. Also I played on an NwN server once where the DM gave out exp for RPing and other things which was helpful since it'd take hours to level unless you did a ton of quests, which took a long time to complete.
I mean MUDs are free, and I can login for some moderate RPG or more likely 4 hours of going to Sundhaven in order to level up by killing every single thing in the zone.
I can do that for free, I'd rather not buy a game plus X amount of cash per month only to see snazzy graphics of people wiping out whole zones so they can level up.
I'm not bashing, just trying to raise a valid point. What ARE you paying for?
True, but think about how RPG stories are usually told, they usually focus on a single character and his/her plight. Avenging a loved ones death, finding the sacred item to save the world, unravel the mystery to save the world etc. Theyre all very linear, quest after quest gameplay, even though a clever bit of game design covers that up, there is still a great deal of building a character up to a point they can fight the next boss, next set of enemies, talk to the oracle, obtain the new item or new magic spell.
Most RPG's are about "the one". The one who becomes king, the one who saves the world, the one who didnt know he was the one and so on. How can you apply such a story to a thousand people? Not everyone can be "the one", and if everyone has equal chance to be the one, what happens when someone becomes the one? All you can really do is give players an immersive environment and a rich history, and allow them to affect the world in whatever way possible.
Of course the game becomes increasingly dificult, and players need to build up in one way or another to play at a harder level. Otherwise, theres no new challenges, the game becomes stagnant after a while.
I dont think its the games that forget about story over stats, I think its the players.
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zelda? Replace stats with Rupees, items....new weapons etc. You still have to "level up" in a very linear fashion to go on to the next challenge. You have to beat the dragon with the sword so you can get the boomerang so you can beat the rhino etc.
If you apply that to an MMORPG you still have the same problem that stats bring about. Not everyone can be Link, but nearly everyone will try to be.
RPGs are really about playing a character, experiencing them evolving as people (not killing monsters all day until a number goes pop) and discovering the world around them... y'know... the world that isn't filled with monsters that seem to have no point in life than to run around preset areas without ever hunting, grazing, herding or any of the things that would make them actually have the illusion of having some spark of soul to them instead of just being another cog in the great stupid levelling mechanism. Though my zelda example is still guilty of creatures being rather pointless, because you're not standing there killing them all day (unless you want to... it doesn't really improve your character so it's not needed most of the time) you don't really notice. That and you're too busy enjoying the story and link becoming better as his bag of cool kit expands while experiencing cool stuff and meeting interesting characters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zelda? Replace stats with Rupees, items....new weapons etc. You still have to "level up" in a very linear fashion to go on to the next challenge. You have to beat the dragon with the sword so you can get the boomerang so you can beat the rhino etc.
If you apply that to an MMORPG you still have the same problem that stats bring about. Not everyone can be Link, but nearly everyone will try to be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, you could have stats but they wouldn't show/you couldn't edit them, instead they'd go up slowly as you do stuff and your character changes and gets stronger. Like lets say you do something that uses dexterity or agility, and pass it, your agility/dex would be closer to "leveling" or it would "level". Same with skills, the more you excersize that skill, the better it would get till you reach a limit depending on how your current character is.
That's what UO does Deronok. it's bloody boring.
Trust me, I managed to be a Journeyman Swordsman. That's 75% in swordsman. I spent my entire time walking around, killing things. About 40-60 hours. If it moved, it died.
That's what UO does Deronok. it's bloody boring.
Trust me, I managed to be a Journeyman Swordsman. That's 75% in swordsman. I spent my entire time walking around, killing things. About 40-60 hours. If it moved, it died. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why GM/Admins are important, to stop botting and such, as well as to make random events to keep the game going.
For the first 5 months I played, it was the best gaming I'd ever had. The last month I felt it getting stale, but regardless, exploring the world and levelling up was hella fun for me, along with the social aspect of the game.
P2P really is just a matter of preference, depends on how much you like the game.