<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yet when the US actually does something that it wants without getting the approval of the rest of the world... Its the bad guy. Regardless of the validity of such actions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it's the bad guy when it goes against the wishes of the majority of the world's nations. What makes you think they wouldn't be? That is a little thing we call democracy.
Let me give you an example. The apartheid regime in South Africa. These white supremists believed they were doing the right thing. They believed that black people truely were inferiour beings and had to be kept down. Almost the entire world disagreed with them, and acted accordingly, with things like sanctions. The apartheid government wasn't happy about this because they were absolutly convinced that what they were doing was not only nessessary, but also completly correct.
The US invaded Iraq despite almost the whole world disagreeing with them. The US was, and is, absolutly convinced that what they did was not only nessessary, but also completly correct. Does that make it good? No it does not. No more than South Africa's apartheid leaders were correct.
And if you want to get into the "validity of such actions" then step back and ask yourself why the US has failed to find any WMD or connections to Al Quaeda in Iraq.
<!--QuoteBegin--othell+Nov 4 2003, 02:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Nov 4 2003, 02:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that makes what you say credible how? You've provided one source ( jewsnotzionists.com ) that has amazingly similar views as yourself. Someone who is against Israel. So I still have to wonder... How is this a credible source? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So I'm assuming you didn't read <a href='http://www.jewsnotzionists.org' target='_blank'>Jews Not Zionists</a>, and I'm assuming you <b>won't</b> read it. One last try, and then I'm done with you. The site is run by Rabbi Yisroel Weiss. He is a <a href='http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm' target='_blank'>Neturei Karta International</a> spokesperson. Neturei Karta International is an anti-Zionist organization whose goals are in part to separate Judaism from Zionism, and to also show how dangerous Zionism can be. Nothing more. Are you afraid to read it because you're afraid you might actually learn something new, or be exposed to something that won't ever be aired on CNN? Will it help if I post a hundred sites that aim to expose Zionism for what it really is? Or will you simply discredit them all because they don't match YOUR opinion?
You do realize that calling into question the credibility of sources of information is not a valid argument against a position, right? I cannot prove anything to you if all you do is sit back and call into question every source of information I have, and that is exactly what you're doing. Sooner or later you'll realize that in this world there is no such thing as an unbiased, purely independent news organization. Not so long as money has anything to do with it. And then, hopefully, you'll soon realize that the content these same media companies produce can be influenced by those who <b>own</b> the companies and by those who can <b>squeeze</b> the companies. The sites I am referencing have no political agenda of their own; they are not attempting to define their own Jewish state, gain control of a government, win large defense contracts, or anything of the sort. They do not rely on advertising to fund their site or their organization. They are purely an organization devoted to fighting back against Zionism, because it is so evil.
So again, one last time... are you going to read it? I challenge you to visit <a href='http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm' target='_blank'>Neturei Karta International</a> and read the "About Us" section. I challenge you to learn something new about organizations that oppose Zionism. I don't expect you to agree with it, all I want is for you read it and learn about your opponent before attempting to flatly discredit it. If you choose not to do this, then you are unmovable and absolutely closed-minded on your position and I have no desire to debate with you any further.
Actually, The United States passed a law that would allow themselves to attack Holland in case a US citizen was held in the international criminal court. Yay!
Evis, just because you think Zionists are evil, does not mean everyone else does. The fact is as of now the only hinderence to peace in that area is the arabs. The Syrians are training terrorists, the Palestinians refuse to even make a serious attempt at getting their country under controll. Israel is being far to nice if you ask me, they are attacked almost every week by suicide bombers, many of these attacks during or before peace talks. Now ask yourself who is the bigger threat, the attackers or the defenders? Don't give me garbage about how the jews took their land, whats done is done, the arabs are the ones who can't get over it and make peace, they are the ones who continue the cycle of voilence.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Nov 4 2003, 01:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Nov 4 2003, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People can complain about the way the Jews have come into being, but everyone is bloody short on the answers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here is a proposed answer to the problem. Yes, it's from Jews opposed to Zionism, and yes... it matches my own. It is the author's opinion and only a proposal for how we might proceed to achieve peace. He uses a series of rhetorical questions and then answers them to make his argument. Note his opinion that war thus far has not achieved anything other than countless deaths.
<a href='http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/homeintro.htm' target='_blank'>The Middle East Quandary – The Traditional View</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Middle East Quandary – The Traditional View (from a pamphlet distributed by Neturei Karta)
Once again the death toll mounts in the Holy Land.
Once again Zionist “doves” and “hawks” lock horns as to the proper response.
Is there any real alternative to the seeming never ending spiral of death and killing?
These are the questions which Jews of various persuasions are asking themselves today. Few and far between are those who believe that salvation lies in the camp of Brak or that of Sharon. A sense of being check mated has enveloped Zionism and with it those unfortunate souls who have allied themselves to it over the years.
In the paragraphs to follow we ask the reader to thoughtfully re-examine some of the current fashionable assumptions concerning the state of Israel and the Zionist movement.
We have cast our viewpoint in question and answer format in the dialogue between an enquiring mind (EM) and a traditional Torah sage (TTS).
EM -- Why is now, in particular, the time for a rethinking of old assumptions?
TTS – Frankly everyone is exhausted. The Israeli state has not delivered its promised goods. It is far from a safe haven for Jews. On the contrary it is in a perpetual situation of war and terror. Neither fighting nor peace negotiations seem to succeed. “Orthodox” pronouncements of devotion to further war no longer inspire.
EM – But isn’t that because . . .
TTS – Yes, yes, I know. Not enough real fighting and war or not enough real concessions for peace. Listen, I said we would be going beyond the old clich?s not wallowing in them.
EM -- OK. What’s your angle?
TTS – First mistake. It’s not my angle.
EM – Whose is it?
TTS – It is the “angle” of the Jewish people since our exile began, namely, that we are homeless due to our sins and that only repentance and G-d’s miraculous mercy can end exile. Not tanks and bombs. It seems that this is fairly clear today, don’t you think?
EM – So, you’re one of those ultra-Orthodox fanatics against the state of Israel?
TTS – Always beware of media stereotyping. When Zionism began it was opposed by the overwhelming majority of Torah leaders and rank and file observant Jews. It is only since 1948 that the strange hybrid of quasi - Zionism best exemplified by the Agudath Israel movement came into being. This position wanted all the results of Zionism, a state with wars and sovereignty but refused to participate in the killing and dying necessary. It demanded money and protection from a state it refused to defend. Zionists have justifiable despised this position.
EM – But that’s the Charedi position? The ultra- Orthodox, isn’t it?
TTS – Again, don’t let the ill informed media think for you It is the Agudah position. Take the money and run. It is not the traditional view at all. The traditional view opposed Zionism. It regarded as vastly secondary who were the Zionists or how they ran their state. This traditional point of view is consistent and coherent. It refuses and has always refused state money and sees the real problem as the existence of the state itself
EM – But the state protects them doesn’t it?
TTS – Quite the contrary. The ancestors of those who adopt this view lived in large numbers in the Holy land long before Zionists arrived and provoked the native Muslim population. They lived at peace with their non - Jewish neighbors. It was after the immigration began, which sought political rule, that animosity started. So, Zionism has protected no one. At first it endangered the old Jewish inhabitants of the Holy Land. Then it endangered the millions who lived there. Finally, it has plunged into danger Jewry world wide and many others, including Americans anywhere around the world.
EM – The state is a reality. You can’t wish it away. Today there is no alternative. It is protecting millions.
TTS – For 52 years, actually for 100 years, we have heard how, first we’ll have to fight a bit, then Israel will be a safe haven for Jews. It hasn’t happened. How many wars are needed? How many deaths till we say that too many people have died, until we are willing to admit that it was a lie, a horrible lie? A false guarantee that delivered the reverse of what it promised?
EM – So, what do you propose now?
TTS – First, let’s get it clear that you are proposing nothing. You have no solution. All your solutions have been tried. Both war and peace have been attempted. For decades you have mocked our constant references to Talmudic statements which predict endless bloodshed as a punishment for seeking to prematurely end the exile. For a moment, just a moment pause and consider that everything we foretold has come true. Nothing you envisioned has. Maybe our Talmudic sages were right, after all?
EM – Again what is your plan?
TTS – Well, first we have to cleanse our minds and hearts of Zionist understandings of history. 1) We cannot shoot our way out of Divine punishment. 2) It is a grave sin to kill or be killed in order to establish pre-Messianic Jewish rule over the Holy Land. 3) The Israeli state in no way represents Jewry or Judaism. 4) Its “keeping” or “giving away” land has nothing to do with Jewry or Judaism. 5) Zionism – the arrogant usurpation of Divine Providence, must always fail, as foretold in Bible and Talmud and by Torah leaders over the centuries. 6) Jewish aggression against non –Jews is antithetical to our Torah mission.
EM – Your plan?
TTS – Our short term plan is to lesson somewhat the anti-Jewish sentiment which Zionism has created around the world and particularly in Islamic countries. We seek to inform the nations of the world that the dispossession of the Palestinians which exploded in 1948 but which had really been taking place since the turn of the century was wrong. And, that Torah Jewry had no part in this evil action. In general, we want to present an alternative to, so called, organized Jewry which forever wanders the globe seeking, in the true spirit of Zionism, to sew the seeds of hate against the nations.
EM – And long term?
TTS – We pray for a peaceful dismantling of the state.
EM – Is this realistic?
TTS – Is the current slavish devotion to Zionism realistic? Has it achieved anything except an endless body count and exacerbated anti-Semitism? The Almighty governs the affairs of men. Would all Jews see the evils of Zionism and then approach the Palestinian people in a spirit of reconciliation, with a sincere desire to relinquish control of the Holy Land the results would be surprisingly pleasant. In the meantime , though, our task is to disassociate ourselves from the heresy of Zionism and the evils it has perpetrated. By so doing we will sanctify the Creator’s Name and restore the Torah dignity of the Jewish people.
EM – In the meantime it seems that not many are interested in your message?
TTS – First. Many have continued the original Torah true anti-Zionist belief system over the last century. They number in the hundreds of thousands. As far as the others are concerned there is a sense of total exhaustion. Half hearted efforts at peace accomplish nothing. The moral burden of the refugee question is overwhelming. The right offers only further war and terror and death in “defense” of the Holy Sites. Behind all the clich?s is the ever growing sense that Zionism is dead. It has failed utterly. With G-d’s help this sense will harden into a clear realization. May this brief conversation serve as a signpost on that path back to truth. And may the Creator’s mercies extend to all our people.
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Nov 4 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Nov 4 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note his opinion that war thus far has not achieved anything other than countless deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You continue to blame Israel for the actions of the Palestinians. Its silly to continue to do that. Israel is not wanting war. Saying they do is beyond stupidity. Israel is the one that continues to be attacked... Yet when they try to do something proactive they are perceived as the villians. They are only protecting themselves. Regardless if Israel is controlled by Zionists or not... They are not making war. They are not there to fight. They are not there to **** anyone off.
Israel is there. Israel wants to live in peace... Even with the Arabs. Israel does not want to fight.
Is this really that hard to understand? Israel is not starting any of this fighting. Israel is there to stay. It won't leave. It will continue to protect itself. The Palestinians are the problem here... The countries surrounding Israel are a problem as well.
Its kinda humorous that this guy's solution is the same as Israel's enemies... That all the Jews ( Zionist or not ) must leave ( which is the same as saying that Israel as a soveriegn state should not exist ).
And if you would have read what he quoted you would have seen that Israelies lived in peace before the Zionists got there. Although it doesn't take into account the immigration of Islamic exiles who also wanted political power.
But if Israel completely withdrew all military presence from Palestine and then they continued their attacks wouldn't this be actual justification for a real war, instead of a back and forth retaliation situation we see today?
All Israels continued aggression is doing is making leaders like Arafet more popular with the people.
<!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Nov 4 2003, 02:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Nov 4 2003, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Evis, just because you think Zionists are evil, does not mean everyone else does. The fact is as of now the only hinderence to peace in that area is the arabs. The Syrians are training terrorists, the Palestinians refuse to even make a serious attempt at getting their country under controll. Israel is being far to nice if you ask me, they are attacked almost every week by suicide bombers, many of these attacks during or before peace talks. Now ask yourself who is the bigger threat, the attackers or the defenders? Don't give me garbage about how the jews took their land, whats done is done, the arabs are the ones who can't get over it and make peace, they are the ones who continue the cycle of voilence. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I understand that. My objective is not to argue endlessly with people who stand on the opposite side, since that has obviously proved to be of no use whatsoever. Instead, I am only trying to teach you that there is a darker side to Zionism that you may not know about. Please take into consideration that what you know from reading your daily newspaper and watching the boob toob does not necessarily provide you with adequate information to make an educated decision, particularly when it comes to foreign affairs. You nor I have been there or been a part of this, so we have only the information at our fingertips from which to base our opinions. Therefore, please understand that there are opinions from the other side, and there IS information that may lead you to rethink your stance.
All I'm asking is that you consider the opposite side and at least understand where we stand. You don't have to agree, but at least understand what we're saying. You still have the right to choose which side you want to be on... and I can't stop you from doing that. All I can do is provide enough information to make a justified opinion. If you restrict yourself to only a select range of information, you are limiting your ability to think objectively about the issue, and you are forcing yourself to be exclusionary and biased. I have no energy to debate people who won't even attempt to understand what the opposing side has to say.
If you'd like to debate this information upon reading and digesting it, I am all for that. That much I would like to discuss. I will not discuss things if you merely repeat the pre-conceived notions and bias you started with. This forum sounds like an army of mass-media spouting broken records. I know, it's hard, but <b><i>please</i></b> try to understand that the mass media here filters information for you. You only hear what certain people want you to hear, no matter how hard you'd like to think otherwise. Far too many people offer their opinion without examining all sides of the equation, and those kinds of people frankly don't make for a very interesting dicussion. If all I want to read about is "poor Israel" all I'd have to do is watch CNN all day long; I don't need everyone here to repeat it over and over for me. Post something I don't already know, and maybe we can both learn something.
<!--QuoteBegin--othell+Nov 4 2003, 02:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Nov 4 2003, 02:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You continue to blame Israel for the actions of the Palestinians. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is my last response to you; I have no energy or desire to discuss this with you any longer.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Eviscerator+Nov 4 2003, 03:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eviscerator @ Nov 4 2003, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here is a proposed answer to the problem. Yes, it's from Jews opposed to Zionism, and yes... it matches my own. It is the author's opinion and only a proposal for how we might proceed to achieve peace. He uses a series of rhetorical questions and then answers them to make his argument. Note his opinion that war thus far has not achieved anything other than countless deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I only see 2 activities suggested by TTS:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We seek to inform the nations of the world that the dispossession of the Palestinians which exploded in 1948 but which had really been taking place since the turn of the century was wrong. And, that Torah Jewry had no part in this evil action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We pray for a peaceful dismantling of the state.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Apologize" and "Pray". I sure hope they've spent a bit more time developing their plan.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Nov 4 2003, 02:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Nov 4 2003, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But if Israel completely withdrew all military presence from Palestine and then they continued their attacks wouldn't this be actual justification for a real war, instead of a back and forth retaliation situation we see today? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well withdrawal would have to include not only military, but people as well. It is naive to think that Arabs will simply forget about what came before. What you're suggesting is the "live peacefully together in a Jewish state" alternative. That hasn't worked, and can not work. The solution he proposes is the dismantling of the state of Israel. A Jewish state is altogether heresy in pure Judaism; they were exiled by their God and are not allowed to return to their home land until the coming of the Messiah. Living in Palestine is blasphemy to Judaism.
In order to resettle the millions of Jews living in Israel, he proposes a campaign to demonstrate to nations that Judaism and Zionism are complete opposites, and to prove to Arabs that they no longer support Zionism whatsoever. A tough challenge, to say the least. Until someone powerful and courageous enough to put their foot down and enact that kind of extreme change in global Jewish ideology comes along, we will continue to see bloodshed and violence. As the Rabbi put it, the Jewish punishment of exile is only going to remain indefinitely if violence is used in an attempt to continue the Zionists' blasphemous ways in the supposed name of Jewry.
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Nov 4 2003, 04:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Nov 4 2003, 04:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And if you would have read what he quoted you would have seen that Israelies lived in peace before the Zionists got there. Although it doesn't take into account the immigration of Islamic exiles who also wanted political power.
But if Israel completely withdrew all military presence from Palestine and then they continued their attacks wouldn't this be actual justification for a real war, instead of a back and forth retaliation situation we see today?
All Israels continued aggression is doing is making leaders like Arafet more popular with the people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There was no Palestine when Israel was created. The Palestinians were given the chance to create their own nation as the Jews created one... But they wanted it all. They did not want to split it with the Jews.
Over the past 4 years we have seen one cease-fire after another... All in the hopes of creating peace. However... The cease-fires are not broken by Israel. They are broken by the Palestinians ( usually the militants. e.g. Hamas, Islamic Jihad ). And if you think Israel should just stand back and let them continue to kill innocent Israeli citizens... That's rediculous!
The Palestinians break a cease-fire... Israel retaliates... Palestinians retaliate in return... Yet they started it. Israel would just as soon leave them alone... But they can't. Israel is not going to disappear. It is here to stay.
The Palestinians have been given so many chances for peace... Yet they take those chances and throw them into the face of the Israeli's with car bombs aimed at innocent civilians.
Israel is fighting for its right to survive... The Palestinians are fighting not to survive... but to get rid of Israel. The Palestinians are not fighting to survive... They could have that without fighting... So the only conclusion is that they do not want peace with Israel.
They have been given chance after chance after chance... For over 50 years now. Yet they continue to attack Israel because they refuse to live in peace with it.
It really is not that hard to understand that Israel is not making war... They are only responding to attacks against their citizens.
----------------------
Evis, I suggest you get some sleep. It should help that no energy problem... Possibly other problems as well....
Also you must keep in mind that Israel is a democratic states, with similar freedoms the US has, there's really no reason it can't be the "bigger nation" and just stop the hostile retaliations. They aren't targeting the people causing the violence anyway, destroying an apartment complex mostly filled with civilians because a random person was paid 10 ten thousand dollars to blow himself up in a cafe by a terrosist organizaton.
It would be like Canada suddenly spawning a terrorist group that hates America and has someone blow up a diner in Detroit and the US tactically nukes Quebec, a little uncalled for.
PS neither one of them had a state to beging with so using the "we were here first" argument doesn't fly.
Evis: That's what I meant by withdrawl, total and complete.
<!--QuoteBegin--Spooge+Nov 4 2003, 02:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spooge @ Nov 4 2003, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I only see 2 activities suggested by TTS:"Apologize" and "Pray". I sure hope they've spent a bit more time developing their plan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well as you might imagine, and can probably easily deduce from the past century of violence and bloodshed, more violence and war surely isn't the answer.
You summarized his plan in two words; it is more complex than that:
1. Lesson somewhat the anti-Jewish sentiment which Zionism has created, particularly in Islamic countries. 2. Inform the world of how Judaism and Zionism are complete opposites. 3. Inform the world of how Zionism is blasphemous to Judaism. 4. Inform the world how the mass immigration into Israel and expulsion of Palestinians was wrong. 5. Pray for peace
Given the first four, and an honest, compassionate people willing to accept those actions on both sides, perhaps it's just the optimistic side of me that feels that ought to be enough to warrant a peaceful solution. If you don't think that is possible under the guise that perhaps people are determined to be hateful and revengeful regardless of the best intentions, then you have no hope for anything other than more war and bloodshed for eternity. Note that none of this (short of #5) has been attempted thus far, so there is no history or track record to point to its likelihood of success or failure.
<!--QuoteBegin--othell+Nov 4 2003, 03:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Nov 4 2003, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Palestinians have been given so many chances for peace... Yet they take those chances and throw them into the face of the Israeli's with car bombs aimed at innocent civilians.
Israel is fighting for its right to survive... The Palestinians are fighting not to survive... but to get rid of Israel. The Palestinians are not fighting to survive... They could have that without fighting... So the only conclusion is that they do not want peace with Israel.
They have been given chance after chance after chance... For over 50 years now. Yet they continue to attack Israel because they refuse to live in peace with it.
It really is not that hard to understand that Israel is not making war... They are only responding to attacks against their citizens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> come on, dont pretend things are so black and white. im a self confessed idiot when it comes to Israel/ Palestine, but even I recognise that Israel isnt as innocent as you make out..
what about the Palestinians forcecd from their homes by bulldozers, and that wall being built well outside Israeli land borders to 'protect' new Isreali homes?
<!--QuoteBegin--dr.d+Nov 4 2003, 03:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Nov 4 2003, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Evis: That's what I meant by withdrawl, total and complete. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh, okay, misunderstood what you said. If the attacks continue, and they may very well, you have to assume it is just part of the price you pay for admitting wrong doing. A mass-murderer does not get to walk free purely because he confesses to his crimes and admits he was wrong. His punishment is reduced because he gave himself up and confessed. I would imagine, like in the Nuremburg trials, that certain people will be tried and punished for their roles in the crimes against humanity. And many of them should be executed or imprisoned. The trials will involve criminals from <b>both</b> sides. Upon proper punishment to those who have done wrong, I think the world can move forward in peace. Like we have in Germany and Japan today. Those who flee from prosecution will probably be hunted down by vigilantes or secret op squads, just like the Nazi war criminals were.
<!--QuoteBegin--Melatonin+Nov 4 2003, 05:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Nov 4 2003, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> come on, dont pretend things are so black and white. im a self confessed idiot when it comes to Israel/ Palestine, but even I recognise that Israel isnt as innocent as you make out..
what about the Palestinians forcecd from their homes by bulldozers, and that wall being built well outside Israeli land borders to 'protect' new Isreali homes? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh... Israel has definately made mistakes and committed acts that are questionable... But show me someone who hasnt. I've never said Israel is innocent. I'm just saying that the burden of peace rests with the Palestinians at this time.
People want to condemn Israel because it is a Zionist state. Big woop. Zionism is really just the belief that Jews should have a country to call their own. Zionism does not claim to be Judaism. They are separate. One is a belief in an an idea, the other is a religion. Worlds of difference. The VERY SMALL sects of Judasim that say that Israel should not exist are only that... VERY SMALL sects. Israel is only a Jewish state in the sense that the majority of the population is Jewsih. Israel, however, has a secular government. It is democratic. Israel federally recognizes all major Jewish, Christian, and Islamic holidays ( e.g. banks are closed on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day ). So saying that Israel, as a nation is heresy to Judaism is a minority opinion. The vast majority of Jews do not hold this belief ( somewhere around 95% ). Why? Because Israel is not a Jewish state in the sense of Jewish law. Israel doesn't even have a constitution. Why? Because no one political party has EVER had a majority within the Israeli government.
Prior to the creation of Israel, it was a British mandate ( from the League of Nations after WWI ). At this time both Jews and Arabs on the east we considered Palestinians. After Israel was created, the Palestinian Jews considered themselves Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs continued to be thought of as Palestinians. Jordan is really the ancient land called Palestine. The Palestinians were given the chance to create their own state along side Israel. Well... Needless to say they did not. Israel has been attacked numerous times throughout its existence. Each time they have pushed the antagonizers ( neighboring states and the Palestinians ) back. After these confrontations, especially after the 6 day war, Israel had gained huge swaths of land from the attackers ( does it really matter where Israel got its military assets? I mean, where did Jordan and Syria and Egypt get theirs? They sure as heck didn't come up with it on their own ). Over the years, Israel has given LARGE portions of this land back... With the intention of having peaceful relations with neighboring states. Well... That seems to have happened to an extent... Except for the part about the Palestinians being financed and supplied by these neighbors ( but I suppose that's peace from them since its not out-right confrontation ).
<!--QuoteBegin--othell+Nov 4 2003, 08:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Nov 4 2003, 08:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There was no Palestine when Israel was created. The Palestinians were given the chance to create their own nation as the Jews created one... But they wanted it all. They did not want to split it with the Jews.
Over the past 4 years we have seen one cease-fire after another... All in the hopes of creating peace. However... The cease-fires are not broken by Israel. They are broken by the Palestinians ( usually the militants. e.g. Hamas, Islamic Jihad ). And if you think Israel should just stand back and let them continue to kill innocent Israeli citizens... That's rediculous!
The Palestinians break a cease-fire... Israel retaliates... Palestinians retaliate in return... Yet they started it. Israel would just as soon leave them alone... But they can't. Israel is not going to disappear. It is here to stay.
The Palestinians have been given so many chances for peace... Yet they take those chances and throw them into the face of the Israeli's with car bombs aimed at innocent civilians.
Israel is fighting for its right to survive... The Palestinians are fighting not to survive... but to get rid of Israel. The Palestinians are not fighting to survive... They could have that without fighting... So the only conclusion is that they do not want peace with Israel.
They have been given chance after chance after chance... For over 50 years now. Yet they continue to attack Israel because they refuse to live in peace with it.
It really is not that hard to understand that Israel is not making war... They are only responding to attacks against their citizens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Palestinians also object to the fact that Israel has built illegal camps right in the middle of its land.
Also you seem to think the term 'Palestinians" is interchangeable with "militant extremists"
Anyway the subject is very intesesting and can be found -> <a href='http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm</a>
Its a shame that a debate about the European view on Israel has turned into Israel vs Palestine, I was quite looking forward to defending European views.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Personally, I think the primary reason this conflict has continued so relentlessly is because of the organizational differences in both sides. This was most evident to me when the israeli military had decimated the palestinian police force, and confined Arafat to a half destroyed apartment, but was still holding him responsible for terrorist attacks. Somehow they expected him from that situation to be able to exert control over the terrorist groups despite having no means of enforcing it.
People just continuously blame people who aren't responsible, and that just perpetuates the cycle of "you shot first" "no you did". Palestinian terrorists attack the Israeli population for the actions of the Israeli government, and the Israeli government attacks the Palestinian people and government for the actions of Palestinian terrorists. As a result, virtually every time someone gets killed, the receiving side sees it as unprovoked and the attacking side sees it as retaliation. There need to be fundamental shifts in the structure and the structural understanding of both sides before any progress can occur. Either that or one side just needs to give up.
Is 'peace' the abcense of war, or the abcense of threat? If 'abcense of war', I'd agree with Evis that the US and Israel are the biggest threats to 'peace'. Yes, be sure to save this thread. :-)
Thats not to say its a bad thing to move from a threating peace into a war which removes a threat, creating 'abcense of threat' peace. Not all peace is good peace, ala WWI
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Nov 4 2003, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Nov 4 2003, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally, I think the primary reason this conflict has continued so relentlessly is because of the organizational differences in both sides. This was most evident to me when the israeli military had decimated the palestinian police force, and confined Arafat to a half destroyed apartment, but was still holding him responsible for terrorist attacks. Somehow they expected him from that situation to be able to exert control over the terrorist groups despite having no means of enforcing it.
People just continuously blame people who aren't responsible, and that just perpetuates the cycle of "you shot first" "no you did". Palestinian terrorists attack the Israeli population for the actions of the Israeli government, and the Israeli government attacks the Palestinian people and government for the actions of Palestinian terrorists. As a result, virtually every time someone gets killed, the receiving side sees it as unprovoked and the attacking side sees it as retaliation. There need to be fundamental shifts in the structure and the structural understanding of both sides before any progress can occur. Either that or one side just needs to give up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Arafat is a big hinderance to peace. He will not give up any of his real power to those who wish to start a true Palestinian government. That is why the former Palestinian PM quit after only a few months in office and the current interim PM has already stated that he will not seek the position after his time is up. Arafat still has the ability to control many of the terrorist organizations. Saying otherwise is really foolish.
To the bit about confusing the Palestinian people with the terrorrists... That's up for debate. The terrorrists hide with the Palestinian population... They attack fellow Palestinians who cooperate with the Israelis.... They have the support of a good portion of the Palestinian population ( how much I wont even attempt to guess ).
The Israeli government doesn't directly attack the Palestinian people. They actually try not to inflict civilian casualties... Its a very difficult thing to do and unfortunately not very effective... But that does not mean they should just stop their activities and let the terrorrists attack at will.
The Palestinians want all the land. Not just what they have now, but that which Israel resides upon. On top of this... Much of the "Palestinian" land could be considered that of Israel after the failed attempts to destroy Israel by war. Israel acquired that by winning those wars. So claiming that those settlements are illegal is a stretch. If they had not attacked Israel, they would have much more land than they are being given now.
Before anyone brings up the plight of the Plestinian refugees... You have to consider the fact that Israel is not kicking them out. They are leaving on their own accord because of constant battles between Israeli forces and militants. Something that really cannot be fully blamed on Israel. I hear very little about the jews that were expelled from Iraq and other Arab nations when Israel was created... Those refugees didn't leave on their own accord. They were told to get out.
It really should be no surprise that Israel expands its terrority... Considering it is the one that is constantly attacked... Which is far different than starting a war with the goal of gaining land.
Evis for christ sake stop acting like you have this all knowing all pure news source. I get my news from the above sources, FOX, CNN, TIME, and Newsweek. Sometimes others but thats the mainstay. Personaly I trust anyone of them(well maybe not FOX) over any website. Now don't say I'm "brainwashed" by the zionists who I'm sure your going to say own all of them. They all have different opinons on different subjects. Don't discredit people or call them closeminded because they refuse to belive "JewsnotZionists.com" over CNN, can you blame them?
<!--QuoteBegin--Jammer+Nov 4 2003, 06:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jammer @ Nov 4 2003, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is 'peace' the abcense of war, or the abcense of threat? If 'abcense of war', I'd agree with Evis that the US and Israel are the biggest threats to 'peace'. Yes, be sure to save this thread. :-)
Thats not to say its a bad thing to move from a threating peace into a war which removes a threat, creating 'abcense of threat' peace. Not all peace is good peace, ala WWI
Did that make any sense? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So the US and Israel are threats to peace because they are the ones being attacked...
Or in the US's case... It is seeking to remove those who threaten its own peace....
<!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Nov 4 2003, 04:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Nov 4 2003, 04:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Evis for christ sake stop acting like you have this all knowing all pure news source. I get my news from the above sources, FOX, CNN, TIME, and Newsweek. Sometimes others but thats the mainstay. Personaly I trust anyone of them(well maybe not FOX) over any website. Now don't say I'm "brainwashed" by the zionists who I'm sure your going to say own all of them. They all have different opinons on different subjects. Don't discredit people or call them closeminded because they refuse to belive "JewsnotZionists.com" over CNN, can you blame them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reasa, relax. You getting upset at me is not achieving anything. All I have asked you to do is consider the other side. You cannot discredit my sources of information just like I cannot discredit yours. So given that premise, one can only consider ALL sources of information and make their own judgements. Yes, believe it or not, I check CNN.com and ABCNews.com daily, I read Newsweek on occasion, and my local newspapers as well. I do not limit my sources of information at all, and that includes web sites that would not be able to publish a magazine or run a major TV network. I'm sorry that you think someone has to have a lot of money and power in order to be credible, but that is not my fault. Believe it or not, there are ways to find information outside of the press. When you get into college you will understand what research is like and how you'll have to find information from sources other than what you see on TV and read in glossy print. If you intend to limit your scope for the rest of your life, you will quickly find out that no one will find <b>you</b> credible. And yes, I could very easily show you how all of the sources you mentioned are influenced and censored by people with ulterior motives. Money, greed, and power hath no bound in a capitalist society. However that is against forum rules so I can't do that.
So now, like with Othell, I will ask you again... have you read any of that information or do you simply refuse to even understand an opposing view? If you simply refuse to even attempt to understand the opposing side, then YES, you are closed-minded. It's an <b>opinion site</b>, not some all-knowing all-pure news site. I never claimed it was. I don't care what information you trust or not, if you don't listen to opposing views to at least understand them then you are by definition a closed-mind. If you read the information, then discuss it and tell me why you feel it's wrong. If you refuse to do this based only on the fact that you think the site is not credible, then you are not obeying the forum rules and this will be my last reply to you. I have no desire to continue to argue with CNN robots. Ignoring people is much safer for me and helps to avoid thread lock.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jammer+Nov 4 2003, 04:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jammer @ Nov 4 2003, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is 'peace' the abcense of war, or the abcense of threat? If 'abcense of war', I'd agree with Evis that the US and Israel are the biggest threats to 'peace'. Yes, be sure to save this thread. :-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh man, hell has frozen over! If there ever was a sign of the coming Apocalypse, this is it!
No one is forceing you to reply, if you don't want to argue with "CNN robots". I would much rather be a CNN robot then someone who thinks Zionists were behind 9/11, but no that would make me "closeminded". Closeminded is a broad term, and it varys with people. You see I look at your links, there is a gap between, "this is crap" and "*reads* ok, this is still crap". Just because a good 90% of America will not belive your ideas, or your sources, does not mean their closeminded, it might just might mean your wrong. But who am I to say that being a 12 yr. old CNN robot, with no free will.
<!--QuoteBegin--reasa+Nov 4 2003, 05:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Nov 4 2003, 05:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You see I look at your links, there is a gap between, "this is crap" and "*reads* ok, this is still crap". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for your reply.
This is a public forum, my posts are for everyone, you don't need to thank me as if it was just for you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Lets not waste space, simply thanking each other, post something relavent and keep the debate going.
Let's put this in perspective, you get 20 people killed, you ride your whole army into the enemy country and capture it, that will do nothing more but raise more anger...
Comments
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Of course it's the bad guy when it goes against the wishes of the majority of the world's nations. What makes you think they wouldn't be? That is a little thing we call democracy.
Let me give you an example. The apartheid regime in South Africa. These white supremists believed they were doing the right thing. They believed that black people truely were inferiour beings and had to be kept down. Almost the entire world disagreed with them, and acted accordingly, with things like sanctions. The apartheid government wasn't happy about this because they were absolutly convinced that what they were doing was not only nessessary, but also completly correct.
The US invaded Iraq despite almost the whole world disagreeing with them. The US was, and is, absolutly convinced that what they did was not only nessessary, but also completly correct. Does that make it good? No it does not. No more than South Africa's apartheid leaders were correct.
And if you want to get into the "validity of such actions" then step back and ask yourself why the US has failed to find any WMD or connections to Al Quaeda in Iraq.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I'm assuming you didn't read <a href='http://www.jewsnotzionists.org' target='_blank'>Jews Not Zionists</a>, and I'm assuming you <b>won't</b> read it. One last try, and then I'm done with you. The site is run by Rabbi Yisroel Weiss. He is a <a href='http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm' target='_blank'>Neturei Karta International</a> spokesperson. Neturei Karta International is an anti-Zionist organization whose goals are in part to separate Judaism from Zionism, and to also show how dangerous Zionism can be. Nothing more. Are you afraid to read it because you're afraid you might actually learn something new, or be exposed to something that won't ever be aired on CNN? Will it help if I post a hundred sites that aim to expose Zionism for what it really is? Or will you simply discredit them all because they don't match YOUR opinion?
You do realize that calling into question the credibility of sources of information is not a valid argument against a position, right? I cannot prove anything to you if all you do is sit back and call into question every source of information I have, and that is exactly what you're doing. Sooner or later you'll realize that in this world there is no such thing as an unbiased, purely independent news organization. Not so long as money has anything to do with it. And then, hopefully, you'll soon realize that the content these same media companies produce can be influenced by those who <b>own</b> the companies and by those who can <b>squeeze</b> the companies. The sites I am referencing have no political agenda of their own; they are not attempting to define their own Jewish state, gain control of a government, win large defense contracts, or anything of the sort. They do not rely on advertising to fund their site or their organization. They are purely an organization devoted to fighting back against Zionism, because it is so evil.
So again, one last time... are you going to read it? I challenge you to visit <a href='http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm' target='_blank'>Neturei Karta International</a> and read the "About Us" section. I challenge you to learn something new about organizations that oppose Zionism. I don't expect you to agree with it, all I want is for you read it and learn about your opponent before attempting to flatly discredit it. If you choose not to do this, then you are unmovable and absolutely closed-minded on your position and I have no desire to debate with you any further.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a proposed answer to the problem. Yes, it's from Jews opposed to Zionism, and yes... it matches my own. It is the author's opinion and only a proposal for how we might proceed to achieve peace. He uses a series of rhetorical questions and then answers them to make his argument. Note his opinion that war thus far has not achieved anything other than countless deaths.
<a href='http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/homeintro.htm' target='_blank'>The Middle East Quandary – The Traditional View</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The Middle East Quandary – The Traditional View
(from a pamphlet distributed by Neturei Karta)
Once again the death toll mounts in the Holy Land.
Once again Zionist “doves” and “hawks” lock horns as to the proper response.
Is there any real alternative to the seeming never ending spiral of death and killing?
These are the questions which Jews of various persuasions are asking themselves today. Few and far between are those who believe that salvation lies in the camp of Brak or that of Sharon. A sense of being check mated has enveloped Zionism and with it those unfortunate souls who have allied themselves to it over the years.
In the paragraphs to follow we ask the reader to thoughtfully re-examine some of the current fashionable assumptions concerning the state of Israel and the Zionist movement.
We have cast our viewpoint in question and answer format in the dialogue between an enquiring mind (EM) and a traditional Torah sage (TTS).
EM -- Why is now, in particular, the time for a rethinking of old assumptions?
TTS – Frankly everyone is exhausted. The Israeli state has not delivered its promised goods. It is far from a safe haven for Jews. On the contrary it is in a perpetual situation of war and terror. Neither fighting nor peace negotiations seem to succeed. “Orthodox” pronouncements of devotion to further war no longer inspire.
EM – But isn’t that because . . .
TTS – Yes, yes, I know. Not enough real fighting and war or not enough real concessions for peace. Listen, I said we would be going beyond the old clich?s not wallowing in them.
EM -- OK. What’s your angle?
TTS – First mistake. It’s not my angle.
EM – Whose is it?
TTS – It is the “angle” of the Jewish people since our exile began, namely, that we are homeless due to our sins and that only repentance and G-d’s miraculous mercy can end exile. Not tanks and bombs. It seems that this is fairly clear today, don’t you think?
EM – So, you’re one of those ultra-Orthodox fanatics against the state of Israel?
TTS – Always beware of media stereotyping. When Zionism began it was opposed by the overwhelming majority of Torah leaders and rank and file observant Jews. It is only since 1948 that the strange hybrid of quasi - Zionism best exemplified by the Agudath Israel movement came into being. This position wanted all the results of Zionism, a state with wars and sovereignty but refused to participate in the killing and dying necessary. It demanded money and protection from a state it refused to defend. Zionists have justifiable despised this position.
EM – But that’s the Charedi position? The ultra- Orthodox, isn’t it?
TTS – Again, don’t let the ill informed media think for you It is the Agudah position. Take the money and run. It is not the traditional view at all. The traditional view opposed Zionism. It regarded as vastly secondary who were the Zionists or how they ran their state. This traditional point of view is consistent and coherent. It refuses and has always refused state money and sees the real problem as the existence of the state itself
EM – But the state protects them doesn’t it?
TTS – Quite the contrary. The ancestors of those who adopt this view lived in large numbers in the Holy land long before Zionists arrived and provoked the native Muslim population. They lived at peace with their non - Jewish neighbors. It was after the immigration began, which sought political rule, that animosity started. So, Zionism has protected no one. At first it endangered the old Jewish inhabitants of the Holy Land. Then it endangered the millions who lived there. Finally, it has plunged into danger Jewry world wide and many others, including Americans anywhere around the world.
EM – The state is a reality. You can’t wish it away. Today there is no alternative. It is protecting millions.
TTS – For 52 years, actually for 100 years, we have heard how, first we’ll have to fight a bit, then Israel will be a safe haven for Jews. It hasn’t happened. How many wars are needed? How many deaths till we say that too many people have died, until we are willing to admit that it was a lie, a horrible lie? A false guarantee that delivered the reverse of what it promised?
EM – So, what do you propose now?
TTS – First, let’s get it clear that you are proposing nothing. You have no solution. All your solutions have been tried. Both war and peace have been attempted. For decades you have mocked our constant references to Talmudic statements which predict endless bloodshed as a punishment for seeking to prematurely end the exile. For a moment, just a moment pause and consider that everything we foretold has come true. Nothing you envisioned has. Maybe our Talmudic sages were right, after all?
EM – Again what is your plan?
TTS – Well, first we have to cleanse our minds and hearts of Zionist understandings of history. 1) We cannot shoot our way out of Divine punishment. 2) It is a grave sin to kill or be killed in order to establish pre-Messianic Jewish rule over the Holy Land. 3) The Israeli state in no way represents Jewry or Judaism. 4) Its “keeping” or “giving away” land has nothing to do with Jewry or Judaism. 5) Zionism – the arrogant usurpation of Divine Providence, must always fail, as foretold in Bible and Talmud and by Torah leaders over the centuries. 6) Jewish aggression against non –Jews is antithetical to our Torah mission.
EM – Your plan?
TTS – Our short term plan is to lesson somewhat the anti-Jewish sentiment which Zionism has created around the world and particularly in Islamic countries. We seek to inform the nations of the world that the dispossession of the Palestinians which exploded in 1948 but which had really been taking place since the turn of the century was wrong. And, that Torah Jewry had no part in this evil action. In general, we want to present an alternative to, so called, organized Jewry which forever wanders the globe seeking, in the true spirit of Zionism, to sew the seeds of hate against the nations.
EM – And long term?
TTS – We pray for a peaceful dismantling of the state.
EM – Is this realistic?
TTS – Is the current slavish devotion to Zionism realistic? Has it achieved anything except an endless body count and exacerbated anti-Semitism? The Almighty governs the affairs of men. Would all Jews see the evils of Zionism and then approach the Palestinian people in a spirit of reconciliation, with a sincere desire to relinquish control of the Holy Land the results would be surprisingly pleasant. In the meantime , though, our task is to disassociate ourselves from the heresy of Zionism and the evils it has perpetrated. By so doing we will sanctify the Creator’s Name and restore the Torah dignity of the Jewish people.
EM – In the meantime it seems that not many are interested in your message?
TTS – First. Many have continued the original Torah true anti-Zionist belief system over the last century. They number in the hundreds of thousands. As far as the others are concerned there is a sense of total exhaustion. Half hearted efforts at peace accomplish nothing. The moral burden of the refugee question is overwhelming. The right offers only further war and terror and death in “defense” of the Holy Sites. Behind all the clich?s is the ever growing sense that Zionism is dead. It has failed utterly. With G-d’s help this sense will harden into a clear realization. May this brief conversation serve as a signpost on that path back to truth. And may the Creator’s mercies extend to all our people.
EM – I’ve got some serious thinking to do.
TTS – Indeed.
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You continue to blame Israel for the actions of the Palestinians. Its silly to continue to do that. Israel is not wanting war. Saying they do is beyond stupidity. Israel is the one that continues to be attacked... Yet when they try to do something proactive they are perceived as the villians. They are only protecting themselves. Regardless if Israel is controlled by Zionists or not... They are not making war. They are not there to fight. They are not there to **** anyone off.
Israel is there. Israel wants to live in peace... Even with the Arabs. Israel does not want to fight.
Is this really that hard to understand? Israel is not starting any of this fighting. Israel is there to stay. It won't leave. It will continue to protect itself. The Palestinians are the problem here... The countries surrounding Israel are a problem as well.
Its kinda humorous that this guy's solution is the same as Israel's enemies... That all the Jews ( Zionist or not ) must leave ( which is the same as saying that Israel as a soveriegn state should not exist ).
But if Israel completely withdrew all military presence from Palestine and then they continued their attacks wouldn't this be actual justification for a real war, instead of a back and forth retaliation situation we see today?
All Israels continued aggression is doing is making leaders like Arafet more popular with the people.
Yes, I understand that. My objective is not to argue endlessly with people who stand on the opposite side, since that has obviously proved to be of no use whatsoever. Instead, I am only trying to teach you that there is a darker side to Zionism that you may not know about. Please take into consideration that what you know from reading your daily newspaper and watching the boob toob does not necessarily provide you with adequate information to make an educated decision, particularly when it comes to foreign affairs. You nor I have been there or been a part of this, so we have only the information at our fingertips from which to base our opinions. Therefore, please understand that there are opinions from the other side, and there IS information that may lead you to rethink your stance.
All I'm asking is that you consider the opposite side and at least understand where we stand. You don't have to agree, but at least understand what we're saying. You still have the right to choose which side you want to be on... and I can't stop you from doing that. All I can do is provide enough information to make a justified opinion. If you restrict yourself to only a select range of information, you are limiting your ability to think objectively about the issue, and you are forcing yourself to be exclusionary and biased. I have no energy to debate people who won't even attempt to understand what the opposing side has to say.
If you'd like to debate this information upon reading and digesting it, I am all for that. That much I would like to discuss. I will not discuss things if you merely repeat the pre-conceived notions and bias you started with. This forum sounds like an army of mass-media spouting broken records. I know, it's hard, but <b><i>please</i></b> try to understand that the mass media here filters information for you. You only hear what certain people want you to hear, no matter how hard you'd like to think otherwise. Far too many people offer their opinion without examining all sides of the equation, and those kinds of people frankly don't make for a very interesting dicussion. If all I want to read about is "poor Israel" all I'd have to do is watch CNN all day long; I don't need everyone here to repeat it over and over for me. Post something I don't already know, and maybe we can both learn something.
This is my last response to you; I have no energy or desire to discuss this with you any longer.
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I only see 2 activities suggested by TTS:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We seek to inform the nations of the world that the dispossession of the Palestinians which exploded in 1948 but which had really been taking place since the turn of the century was wrong. And, that Torah Jewry had no part in this evil action.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We pray for a peaceful dismantling of the state.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Apologize" and "Pray". I sure hope they've spent a bit more time developing their plan.
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Well withdrawal would have to include not only military, but people as well. It is naive to think that Arabs will simply forget about what came before. What you're suggesting is the "live peacefully together in a Jewish state" alternative. That hasn't worked, and can not work. The solution he proposes is the dismantling of the state of Israel. A Jewish state is altogether heresy in pure Judaism; they were exiled by their God and are not allowed to return to their home land until the coming of the Messiah. Living in Palestine is blasphemy to Judaism.
In order to resettle the millions of Jews living in Israel, he proposes a campaign to demonstrate to nations that Judaism and Zionism are complete opposites, and to prove to Arabs that they no longer support Zionism whatsoever. A tough challenge, to say the least. Until someone powerful and courageous enough to put their foot down and enact that kind of extreme change in global Jewish ideology comes along, we will continue to see bloodshed and violence. As the Rabbi put it, the Jewish punishment of exile is only going to remain indefinitely if violence is used in an attempt to continue the Zionists' blasphemous ways in the supposed name of Jewry.
But if Israel completely withdrew all military presence from Palestine and then they continued their attacks wouldn't this be actual justification for a real war, instead of a back and forth retaliation situation we see today?
All Israels continued aggression is doing is making leaders like Arafet more popular with the people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was no Palestine when Israel was created. The Palestinians were given the chance to create their own nation as the Jews created one... But they wanted it all. They did not want to split it with the Jews.
Over the past 4 years we have seen one cease-fire after another... All in the hopes of creating peace. However... The cease-fires are not broken by Israel. They are broken by the Palestinians ( usually the militants. e.g. Hamas, Islamic Jihad ). And if you think Israel should just stand back and let them continue to kill innocent Israeli citizens... That's rediculous!
The Palestinians break a cease-fire... Israel retaliates... Palestinians retaliate in return... Yet they started it. Israel would just as soon leave them alone... But they can't. Israel is not going to disappear. It is here to stay.
The Palestinians have been given so many chances for peace... Yet they take those chances and throw them into the face of the Israeli's with car bombs aimed at innocent civilians.
Israel is fighting for its right to survive... The Palestinians are fighting not to survive... but to get rid of Israel. The Palestinians are not fighting to survive... They could have that without fighting... So the only conclusion is that they do not want peace with Israel.
They have been given chance after chance after chance... For over 50 years now. Yet they continue to attack Israel because they refuse to live in peace with it.
It really is not that hard to understand that Israel is not making war... They are only responding to attacks against their citizens.
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Evis, I suggest you get some sleep. It should help that no energy problem... Possibly other problems as well....
It would be like Canada suddenly spawning a terrorist group that hates America and has someone blow up a diner in Detroit and the US tactically nukes Quebec, a little uncalled for.
PS neither one of them had a state to beging with so using the "we were here first" argument doesn't fly.
Evis: That's what I meant by withdrawl, total and complete.
I only see 2 activities suggested by TTS:"Apologize" and "Pray". I sure hope they've spent a bit more time developing their plan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well as you might imagine, and can probably easily deduce from the past century of violence and bloodshed, more violence and war surely isn't the answer.
You summarized his plan in two words; it is more complex than that:
1. Lesson somewhat the anti-Jewish sentiment which Zionism has created, particularly in Islamic countries.
2. Inform the world of how Judaism and Zionism are complete opposites.
3. Inform the world of how Zionism is blasphemous to Judaism.
4. Inform the world how the mass immigration into Israel and expulsion of Palestinians was wrong.
5. Pray for peace
Given the first four, and an honest, compassionate people willing to accept those actions on both sides, perhaps it's just the optimistic side of me that feels that ought to be enough to warrant a peaceful solution. If you don't think that is possible under the guise that perhaps people are determined to be hateful and revengeful regardless of the best intentions, then you have no hope for anything other than more war and bloodshed for eternity. Note that none of this (short of #5) has been attempted thus far, so there is no history or track record to point to its likelihood of success or failure.
Israel is fighting for its right to survive... The Palestinians are fighting not to survive... but to get rid of Israel. The Palestinians are not fighting to survive... They could have that without fighting... So the only conclusion is that they do not want peace with Israel.
They have been given chance after chance after chance... For over 50 years now. Yet they continue to attack Israel because they refuse to live in peace with it.
It really is not that hard to understand that Israel is not making war... They are only responding to attacks against their citizens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
come on, dont pretend things are so black and white.
im a self confessed idiot when it comes to Israel/ Palestine, but even I recognise that Israel isnt as innocent as you make out..
what about the Palestinians forcecd from their homes by bulldozers, and that wall being built well outside Israeli land borders to 'protect' new Isreali homes?
Ahh, okay, misunderstood what you said. If the attacks continue, and they may very well, you have to assume it is just part of the price you pay for admitting wrong doing. A mass-murderer does not get to walk free purely because he confesses to his crimes and admits he was wrong. His punishment is reduced because he gave himself up and confessed. I would imagine, like in the Nuremburg trials, that certain people will be tried and punished for their roles in the crimes against humanity. And many of them should be executed or imprisoned. The trials will involve criminals from <b>both</b> sides. Upon proper punishment to those who have done wrong, I think the world can move forward in peace. Like we have in Germany and Japan today. Those who flee from prosecution will probably be hunted down by vigilantes or secret op squads, just like the Nazi war criminals were.
im a self confessed idiot when it comes to Israel/ Palestine, but even I recognise that Israel isnt as innocent as you make out..
what about the Palestinians forcecd from their homes by bulldozers, and that wall being built well outside Israeli land borders to 'protect' new Isreali homes? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh... Israel has definately made mistakes and committed acts that are questionable... But show me someone who hasnt. I've never said Israel is innocent. I'm just saying that the burden of peace rests with the Palestinians at this time.
People want to condemn Israel because it is a Zionist state. Big woop. Zionism is really just the belief that Jews should have a country to call their own. Zionism does not claim to be Judaism. They are separate. One is a belief in an an idea, the other is a religion. Worlds of difference. The VERY SMALL sects of Judasim that say that Israel should not exist are only that... VERY SMALL sects. Israel is only a Jewish state in the sense that the majority of the population is Jewsih. Israel, however, has a secular government. It is democratic. Israel federally recognizes all major Jewish, Christian, and Islamic holidays ( e.g. banks are closed on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day ). So saying that Israel, as a nation is heresy to Judaism is a minority opinion. The vast majority of Jews do not hold this belief ( somewhere around 95% ). Why? Because Israel is not a Jewish state in the sense of Jewish law. Israel doesn't even have a constitution. Why? Because no one political party has EVER had a majority within the Israeli government.
Prior to the creation of Israel, it was a British mandate ( from the League of Nations after WWI ). At this time both Jews and Arabs on the east we considered Palestinians. After Israel was created, the Palestinian Jews considered themselves Israelis and the Palestinian Arabs continued to be thought of as Palestinians. Jordan is really the ancient land called Palestine. The Palestinians were given the chance to create their own state along side Israel. Well... Needless to say they did not. Israel has been attacked numerous times throughout its existence. Each time they have pushed the antagonizers ( neighboring states and the Palestinians ) back. After these confrontations, especially after the 6 day war, Israel had gained huge swaths of land from the attackers ( does it really matter where Israel got its military assets? I mean, where did Jordan and Syria and Egypt get theirs? They sure as heck didn't come up with it on their own ). Over the years, Israel has given LARGE portions of this land back... With the intention of having peaceful relations with neighboring states. Well... That seems to have happened to an extent... Except for the part about the Palestinians being financed and supplied by these neighbors ( but I suppose that's peace from them since its not out-right confrontation ).
Israel is not the aggressor here.
Over the past 4 years we have seen one cease-fire after another... All in the hopes of creating peace. However... The cease-fires are not broken by Israel. They are broken by the Palestinians ( usually the militants. e.g. Hamas, Islamic Jihad ). And if you think Israel should just stand back and let them continue to kill innocent Israeli citizens... That's rediculous!
The Palestinians break a cease-fire... Israel retaliates... Palestinians retaliate in return... Yet they started it. Israel would just as soon leave them alone... But they can't. Israel is not going to disappear. It is here to stay.
The Palestinians have been given so many chances for peace... Yet they take those chances and throw them into the face of the Israeli's with car bombs aimed at innocent civilians.
Israel is fighting for its right to survive... The Palestinians are fighting not to survive... but to get rid of Israel. The Palestinians are not fighting to survive... They could have that without fighting... So the only conclusion is that they do not want peace with Israel.
They have been given chance after chance after chance... For over 50 years now. Yet they continue to attack Israel because they refuse to live in peace with it.
It really is not that hard to understand that Israel is not making war... They are only responding to attacks against their citizens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Palestinians also object to the fact that Israel has built illegal camps right in the middle of its land.
Also you seem to think the term 'Palestinians" is interchangeable with "militant extremists"
Anyway the subject is very intesesting and can be found -> <a href='http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm</a>
Its a shame that a debate about the European view on Israel has turned into Israel vs Palestine, I was quite looking forward to defending European views.
People just continuously blame people who aren't responsible, and that just perpetuates the cycle of "you shot first" "no you did". Palestinian terrorists attack the Israeli population for the actions of the Israeli government, and the Israeli government attacks the Palestinian people and government for the actions of Palestinian terrorists. As a result, virtually every time someone gets killed, the receiving side sees it as unprovoked and the attacking side sees it as retaliation. There need to be fundamental shifts in the structure and the structural understanding of both sides before any progress can occur. Either that or one side just needs to give up.
Rock, pappers, siccors,
two out of three, winner takes all.
Thats not to say its a bad thing to move from a threating peace into a war which removes a threat, creating 'abcense of threat' peace. Not all peace is good peace, ala WWI
Did that make any sense?
People just continuously blame people who aren't responsible, and that just perpetuates the cycle of "you shot first" "no you did". Palestinian terrorists attack the Israeli population for the actions of the Israeli government, and the Israeli government attacks the Palestinian people and government for the actions of Palestinian terrorists. As a result, virtually every time someone gets killed, the receiving side sees it as unprovoked and the attacking side sees it as retaliation. There need to be fundamental shifts in the structure and the structural understanding of both sides before any progress can occur. Either that or one side just needs to give up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arafat is a big hinderance to peace. He will not give up any of his real power to those who wish to start a true Palestinian government. That is why the former Palestinian PM quit after only a few months in office and the current interim PM has already stated that he will not seek the position after his time is up. Arafat still has the ability to control many of the terrorist organizations. Saying otherwise is really foolish.
To the bit about confusing the Palestinian people with the terrorrists... That's up for debate. The terrorrists hide with the Palestinian population... They attack fellow Palestinians who cooperate with the Israelis.... They have the support of a good portion of the Palestinian population ( how much I wont even attempt to guess ).
The Israeli government doesn't directly attack the Palestinian people. They actually try not to inflict civilian casualties... Its a very difficult thing to do and unfortunately not very effective... But that does not mean they should just stop their activities and let the terrorrists attack at will.
The Palestinians want all the land. Not just what they have now, but that which Israel resides upon. On top of this... Much of the "Palestinian" land could be considered that of Israel after the failed attempts to destroy Israel by war. Israel acquired that by winning those wars. So claiming that those settlements are illegal is a stretch. If they had not attacked Israel, they would have much more land than they are being given now.
Before anyone brings up the plight of the Plestinian refugees... You have to consider the fact that Israel is not kicking them out. They are leaving on their own accord because of constant battles between Israeli forces and militants. Something that really cannot be fully blamed on Israel. I hear very little about the jews that were expelled from Iraq and other Arab nations when Israel was created... Those refugees didn't leave on their own accord. They were told to get out.
It really should be no surprise that Israel expands its terrority... Considering it is the one that is constantly attacked... Which is far different than starting a war with the goal of gaining land.
Thats not to say its a bad thing to move from a threating peace into a war which removes a threat, creating 'abcense of threat' peace. Not all peace is good peace, ala WWI
Did that make any sense? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the US and Israel are threats to peace because they are the ones being attacked...
Or in the US's case... It is seeking to remove those who threaten its own peace....
A rediculous twist on the grim facts....
Reasa, relax. You getting upset at me is not achieving anything. All I have asked you to do is consider the other side. You cannot discredit my sources of information just like I cannot discredit yours. So given that premise, one can only consider ALL sources of information and make their own judgements. Yes, believe it or not, I check CNN.com and ABCNews.com daily, I read Newsweek on occasion, and my local newspapers as well. I do not limit my sources of information at all, and that includes web sites that would not be able to publish a magazine or run a major TV network. I'm sorry that you think someone has to have a lot of money and power in order to be credible, but that is not my fault. Believe it or not, there are ways to find information outside of the press. When you get into college you will understand what research is like and how you'll have to find information from sources other than what you see on TV and read in glossy print. If you intend to limit your scope for the rest of your life, you will quickly find out that no one will find <b>you</b> credible. And yes, I could very easily show you how all of the sources you mentioned are influenced and censored by people with ulterior motives. Money, greed, and power hath no bound in a capitalist society. However that is against forum rules so I can't do that.
So now, like with Othell, I will ask you again... have you read any of that information or do you simply refuse to even understand an opposing view? If you simply refuse to even attempt to understand the opposing side, then YES, you are closed-minded. It's an <b>opinion site</b>, not some all-knowing all-pure news site. I never claimed it was. I don't care what information you trust or not, if you don't listen to opposing views to at least understand them then you are by definition a closed-mind. If you read the information, then discuss it and tell me why you feel it's wrong. If you refuse to do this based only on the fact that you think the site is not credible, then you are not obeying the forum rules and this will be my last reply to you. I have no desire to continue to argue with CNN robots. Ignoring people is much safer for me and helps to avoid thread lock.
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Oh man, hell has frozen over! If there ever was a sign of the coming Apocalypse, this is it!
Thank you for your reply.
Lets not waste space, simply thanking each other, post something relavent and keep the debate going.