Homo And Bisexuality
CForrester
P0rk(h0p Join Date: 2002-10-05 Member: 1439Members, Constellation
P0rk(h0p Join Date: 2002-10-05 Member: 1439Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">From a non-religious standpoint</div> [NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT BRING RELIGION HERE! We've heard "My god said to do this" or "My god says you go to hell if you do this" a thousand times already. This is a discussion from a non-religious standpoint. If you can't argue against it without religion, don't post. Thank you.]
I was wondering what you guys thought of homo and bisexuality, from a non-religious standpoint. Do you think it's wrong? If so, why? Do you think one is wrong, but not the other? Why?
Personally, I think that homo and bisexuality are perfectly fine and natural. It's been proven that there are people born homosexual and people born bisexual, I believe. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Being a homosexual or a bisexual isn't hurting anyone, is it? No. The population is pretty beefy already.
People say that homosexuals wouldn't make good parents. Why not? You don't NEED a mother and a father, this has been proven time and time again. Many children grow up with only a father, or other a mother. Sometimes they grow up with NEITHER, and most of them turn out to be fine people. In fact, I think that a homosexual couple would help a child MORE than a heterosexual couple. How? Well, they'd be more aware of homosexuality and wouldn't tease people about it, or hurt them because they're homosexual. (They probably wouldn't go around saying "OMG THAT'S G*Y!!!" either.)
In the end... What IS wrong with homosexuality, or bisexuality? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion.
I was wondering what you guys thought of homo and bisexuality, from a non-religious standpoint. Do you think it's wrong? If so, why? Do you think one is wrong, but not the other? Why?
Personally, I think that homo and bisexuality are perfectly fine and natural. It's been proven that there are people born homosexual and people born bisexual, I believe. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Being a homosexual or a bisexual isn't hurting anyone, is it? No. The population is pretty beefy already.
People say that homosexuals wouldn't make good parents. Why not? You don't NEED a mother and a father, this has been proven time and time again. Many children grow up with only a father, or other a mother. Sometimes they grow up with NEITHER, and most of them turn out to be fine people. In fact, I think that a homosexual couple would help a child MORE than a heterosexual couple. How? Well, they'd be more aware of homosexuality and wouldn't tease people about it, or hurt them because they're homosexual. (They probably wouldn't go around saying "OMG THAT'S G*Y!!!" either.)
In the end... What IS wrong with homosexuality, or bisexuality? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion.
Comments
Thats because the relativistic morals of today's society mean that there can be no judgement of anyone. It is only through absolutistic morals such as those found in religion that we can judge someone.
From a relativist point of view, anything goes. We all have our excuses, our rights, our personality. If religion and its absolute morals are not allowed to be discussed, every one will be saying "Homosexuals are ok, they have the right to live thier lives how they want"
There is no discussion
I'm straight, myself... but I definitely am for the rights of people who aren't to pursue their individual interests.
That said, there was another thread identical to this, and as Ryo said, we all agree that apart from a non religious standpoint, there is no decent opposition to homosexuality.
I dont remember you posting in it however CForrester, so you probably missed it.
personally, i would be fine with them even if they were consious choices, as opposed to 'natural urges'.
I mean, would some people accept it if it were 'natural' ie. unconsious or 'built in', and then <i> not </i> accept it, if it were a decision?
i mean, who am I to say what other people can or cannot do togeather, end of the day its none of my business.
saying to someone 'you may not have sex in the manner you desire' is absurd.
*edit*
yeah, i cant see anyone opposing this here based on personal opinion (everyone else would lay right into them). without religion there is no discussion.
just out of interest, have you ever known any people who are g4y/ or had any g4y friends?
*edit* stupid filters, and stupid youth culture slang terms */edit*
Since we are keeping this in the realm of science and study, let's see some examples of this proof. I have to do some work today, but I will try and bring some counter-proof to the table.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
It's been proven that there are people born homosexual and people born bisexual, I believe.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, bring some of these proofs to the table.
Talk to ya later.
Outside of Xtian and other religious dogma, there is no objective reason to find it "wrong" or harmful to others. Disease? If a homosexual can transmit it, so can a hetero. Anal sex? Many hetero couples copulate this way. Emotional issues? You would have them if you were treated and shunned the way many, if not most homosexuals are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I think that homo and bisexuality are perfectly fine and natural. It's been proven that there are people born homosexual and people born bisexual, I believe. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Being a homosexual or a bisexual isn't hurting anyone, is it? No. The population is pretty beefy already.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't try to make any arguments from a population argument. Most 1st world countries are dealing with large drops in birth rates, with the majority of the current population aging. Africa is set to lose tens of millions of people to aids. If there ever was a period of serious depopulation that would jeapordize humanity, biology would kick in and provide more children. In any case, the number of homosexual marriages wouldn't negatively affect population figures.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People say that homosexuals wouldn't make good parents. Why not? You don't NEED a mother and a father, this has been proven time and time again. Many children grow up with only a father, or other a mother. Sometimes they grow up with NEITHER, and most of them turn out to be fine people. In fact, I think that a homosexual couple would help a child MORE than a heterosexual couple. How? Well, they'd be more aware of homosexuality and wouldn't tease people about it, or hurt them because they're homosexual. (They probably wouldn't go around saying "OMG THAT'S G*Y!!!" either.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not so much that a mother + father is needed as 2 guardians are needed. The ideal situation is a breadwinner and a stay at home parent. But due to economic conditions, this isn't often possible for homosexual or heterosexual couples.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the end... What IS wrong with homosexuality, or bisexuality? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From a secular humanist perspective? No way!
Ontopic:
I don't have a problem with Homos and Bis. It's their choice and as long as they are not harming others, fine. If you think they are harming themselves, then it's not your problem. They have been warned and if they think they are happier that way, let them try. People need to make their own mistakes(if you think it's a mistake).
I'm not sure if we are allowed to discuss about two persons homos raising a child is allowed but I'll give it a stab. Personally I don't think two parents with same sex would harm the child. Not in the sense of 'Homos don't know how to raise children/teach them right values' anyway. The problem lies outside. When other kids find out that little William has two dads, he is obviously going to be discriminated and teased. It's circular: if there would be more same-sex-parents, people would accept them sooner and their children would have equal treatment. However there wont be many homosexual parents raising a child because people think that it's wrong.
Though I think it's just matter of time that homos will be accepted completely. See how people are getting more rights every day?
OTOH if guys making out in public disturbs a mass of people, they should be treated as anyone else disturbing the neighborhood, cited with disturbing the peace (streaking or loud music at night in a suburb too!)
i also dont believe any couple who cannot procreate should raise children, they are different in mindset and that will definitely effect the child in many many ways, a child raised to **** parents will be more open minded, and thats good, but theyll also lack any sort of masculine parental figure, and that is bad.
(single mother families still get a masculine figure when the mother has to discipline the child, or from other family members, so i dont mean that situation)
First non-social study that shows some people may be born g@y.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"We have several decades of research which suggests rather strongly that human sexual orientation is to some degree biologically determined," says study author Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in the School of Psychology at the University of East London. "The problem with those types of studies is that we can't disentangle the effects of learning."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And Zel: G@y parents are more likely to raise more sexually responsible children, since they themselves had to deal with sex in a very open manner they are likely to talk to their kids about it more openly. Considering that most STDs are contracted by people under the age of 25 and the majority of new cases occur among teenagers I can see the benefit to being raised in a g@y household.
Since we are keeping this in the realm of science and study, let's see some examples of this proof. I have to do some work today, but I will try and bring some counter-proof to the table. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm living proof right now. My father left when I was very young, so I never knew him. (I was about 2. He left after he got my mom pregnant again in 1990. I was born in 1988.) My mom raised two children, while our father wasn't around. Guess what? We're both turning out to be great children, not to sound self-centered. We have a good relationship with our mother, and our family on our mother's side.
Also, if a kid gets teased at school about having homosexual parents, and his parents have brought him up properly, he'll be able to ignore them. I get teased all the time about my long hair, but my mother has taught me "Be who you want to be, and to hell with what anyone says about it".
However, something angers me... People assume that a homosexual will hit on you. Homosexual means that they like the same sex, not that they're sex-crazed maniacs who will sleep with anyone they see. If a homosexual knows that you're straight, he won't hit on you. If he doesn't know, and does, just say politely "I'm sorry, but I'm heterosexual." They'll leave you alone.
A homosexual has just as much right to kiss, hug or hold hands with their partner in public as a heterosexual does. If you don't like it, don't look.
I don't like the idea of homosexual parents, because that just sparks the discussion of the child, and let's be honest here, that is going to be one very confused child.
It's a controversial topic, but I'm going to have to opt that I don't like it at all, I'm not going to persecute them, but to put it kindly, I'd rather they be heterosexual. Just remember, that just because someone has an inhibition, doesn't make it right, or natural. Just because it's something you feel, or may feel just at certain times, doesn't make it acceptable, I definetely wouldn't want to embrace that philosophy.
And why does a child with g@y parents automatically become confused. What about the child with fundamentalist Catholic parents who tell their child they are forbidden to masterbate or have sex before marriage, you don't think they'll be confused? What about the typical parents who just refuse to talk to their children about sex because they are <i>embarrased</i>, or the thousands of single mothers who had kids just because they happened to get pregnant, are those kids better off with parents who don't really know how to parent and don't really want kids, or with parents that had to fight to have children?
Sure, they may be born with an imbalance, but other people are born with other traits that may make them more inclined to do something. Let's face it, the Male body is designed/meant to have sex with a Female body. There is nothing natural about two men having intercourse.
Personally, I think it is a choice. Do people have the right to make it? Sure. Do I have an obligation to accept it? Nope. I just have to tolerate it.
Reactions like the ones they measured are learned behaviors. To me the study says that your average lesbian bull dike is more masculine than your average queen is feminine. /shrug
Sure, they may be born with an imbalance, but other people are born with other traits that may make them more inclined to do something. Let's face it, the Male body is designed/meant to have sex with a Female body. There is nothing natural about two men having intercourse. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is homosexuality always equated to something bad ? You're comparing killing to having sex ?
Potentially emotionally-loving sex as well I might add. Flings are not the exclusive province of homosexuality now are they ?
It's easy to declare something like "Sure, they may be born with an imbalance" as long as that imbalance does not apply to <i>you</i>.
Honestly guys, I am a heterosexual but I can at least appreciate the fact of how important my sexuality is to me. Do you have any idea what you are asking someone to do when you ask that they deny themselves their true sexual identity ? This is the type of thing that leads to suicide.
what is natural?
"somthing which is not aquired, which is inherant"?
"Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned"?
if that is the definition, then homosexuality seems pretty natural to me.
to the hetrosexual people who say its 'wrong', can you at least accept that you have no real basis for this apart from personal opinion?
Typo ! Whoops !
That said, the more **** guys the better and the less lezbiens the batter. Having more homosexual males cuts down the competition <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> , But lezbiens cut down on the available women.
I pose a different question. What do you think about schools being able to ask the following questions in california with out parental knowledge or consent.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When and where did you first decide you were heterosexual?
Is it possible heterosexuality is a phase you will grow out of?
Is it possible you are heterosexual because you fear the same sex?
If you have never slept with someone of the same sex, how do you know you wouldn?t prefer that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it possible heterosexuality is a phase you will grow out of?
Is it possible you are heterosexual because you fear the same sex?
If you have never slept with someone of the same sex, how do you know you wouldn’t prefer that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh? Is that actually happening? A little off-topic, but I read in a newspaper a while ago, a teacher come under discipline (already suspended), for having asked his grade nine students to write a short paragraph about their first sexual experience. The thing though, is that there was nothing wrong about the subject. What WAS wrong though that the teacher was expecting the assignments to be handed in so he could mark them. If he didn't ask to have them handed in so he could mark them, then there would have been no problem, (but then how would we know if students weren't doing their homework? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Going back to topic though, while I have nothing against a homosexual people, I'm a little curious about the psychological health concerning homosexuals. No doubt that they still come under fire from homophobics, but I have heard some people mentioning that the divorce rate amongst homosexuals (moreso for men than for women), is greater than for heterosexual couples. Not that that really means much today, but any comments as to why?
If you think homosexuality is wrong, have you asked yourself why? I mean, perhaps it is disturbing to you, but that is no ground for saying it is wrong.
I live in the South, and here it isn't acceptable to be g4y. I'm straight, and I'm glad for that. It isn't because I think any less of homosexuals. In fact, considering 1 out of 10 people are g4y, I probably had a few g4y friends myself. It doesn't bother me. I'm not a homophobe.
However, there is another aspect of homosexuality, which is the social aspect. Being g4y isn't acceptable. It has nothing to do with the behavior. The reason it isn't acceptable is because some people think less of g4y people. Consequentially, nobody wants to be thought less of, so they don't want to give the impression they are g4y when they aren't. Long story short, everybody is affected by a few people who have a skewed wrong opinion of homosexuals.
It isn't right. I'll admit that. It is no different than being black about 40 years ago. In fact, it was worse for them, because you couldn't hide it. There will be a day when it will be accepted.
Call me a visionary, but I believe there will be a day when artificial intelligence will face this same discrimination for not being "real." On this side of things, it seems ludicruous to think a program is alive, but such are all things from the past's standpoint. I don't think people considered black people real people, but animals instead before the rights activists.