Mp_killdelay Problem
interiot
Join Date: 2003-01-22 Member: 12586Members
Join Date: 2003-01-22 Member: 12586Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Yet another discussion....</div> There seems to be a serious problem with mp_killdelay that I haven't seen discussed before. The problem is that typing "kill" (or, more likely pressing the key you have it bound to) multiple times resets the counter... eg. if mp_killdelay is set to 15, you can hit your kill key as soon as you spawn as a marine, and as long as you keep hitting it over and over, less than every 15 seconds, you'll never suicide.
So the obvious thing to do is stop hitting it as soon as you see or hear an onos in case he might eat you. If you manage to escape being devoured, resume hitting mp_killdelay and you're fine. This reduces the effective mp_killdelay somewhat. At worst, you'd reset the timer right before you walked right in front of a cloaked onos and you gained no time. At best, you heard the onos shortly before you were about to reset the time and you got to suicide regardless of how rediculously high mp_killdelay is. Somewhere in the middle, you heard him while he was some distance off, he got stuck while heading towards you, and you took 10 seconds off of mp_killdelay, meaning that unless mp_killdelay is over 40 seconds, you very likely get to suicide before he's done digesting.
To me, this is clearly a bug, and an easy-to-fix bug at that: you shouldn't be able to reset the suicide timer.
(observed in 2.01 final)
So the obvious thing to do is stop hitting it as soon as you see or hear an onos in case he might eat you. If you manage to escape being devoured, resume hitting mp_killdelay and you're fine. This reduces the effective mp_killdelay somewhat. At worst, you'd reset the timer right before you walked right in front of a cloaked onos and you gained no time. At best, you heard the onos shortly before you were about to reset the time and you got to suicide regardless of how rediculously high mp_killdelay is. Somewhere in the middle, you heard him while he was some distance off, he got stuck while heading towards you, and you took 10 seconds off of mp_killdelay, meaning that unless mp_killdelay is over 40 seconds, you very likely get to suicide before he's done digesting.
To me, this is clearly a bug, and an easy-to-fix bug at that: you shouldn't be able to reset the suicide timer.
(observed in 2.01 final)
Comments
imho implement stuck and remove kill at all
I agree. Kill, while a valid skill right now, I wouldn't mind seeing it go. Leaving in kill over /stuck is a poor trade. You might say having a /stuck plugin built into the game is a poor excuse for bad programming, but having to kill yourself because you are stuck is even worse for gameplay.
Flay, do the right thing. Kill the kill command, and put in stuck.
The stuck command has issues of its own, allowing players to get outside the map. The mod author has added something like "mp_stuckdelay" variable, but just like mp_killdelay, it has unintended side effects and doesn't completely stop lamers.
They're admin_kick and admin_ban .
Easy solution, don't play on servers which allow llama's like this to survive.
It has legit uses like being acros the map and having the comm tell everyone to suicide so hea can beacon and save base, getting of sites, whatever. Anyone that can keep it together enough to fight while being constantly within seconds of falling over dead <i>deserves</i> it, jesus. Whether you devour and HA or he kills himself, the armor is still irrevocably gone. You may argue that the main point is taking people out of battle, but if there are really so many guys around that that's gonna make a difference, you can just devour the next guy - and if the whole squad offs themselves instead of fighting you, the purpose is served anyways.
It's not a big deal.
Ohhhhhhhh! <i>erotic</i>
What if you fall into a hole that has no trigger_hurt and you can't get out of it? What if you fall out of the map?
What if you fall into a hole that has no trigger_hurt and you can't get out of it? What if you fall out of the map? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hit f4, then join the game again
Why would you deny the marine team the flexibility kill gives them because a few people engage in an <i>utterly trivial</i> exploit?
What if you fall into a hole that has no trigger_hurt and you can't get out of it? What if you fall out of the map? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hit f4, then join the game again <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if there were no IPs? Like if you accidentally were walking and fell into a vent, and then couldn't do anything?
Besides, /stuck seems so... out-of-place. It takes away a lot of the atmosphere. What do you think--A guy falls into a vent, there's no way out, and he knows Skulks are coming.
...
Well, I'd suicide.
Now think--A guy gets trapped behind a blast door that is going down and he can't fit--and Skulks are coming fast!
He types /stuck and warps through! The Skulks crash into the door and smash their skulls.
yar
What if you fall into a hole that has no trigger_hurt and you can't get out of it? What if you fall out of the map? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hit f4, then join the game again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, so if "kill" were disabled, what's to prevent people from simply doing that instead of suiciding to deny RFK/avoid digestion?
mass kill + beacon = exploit.
sure it's a strategy but so is getting a hoard of gorges under the marine base and bbing it through the floor but they fixed that. Building through the weldable wall to make an untouchable base is also a strategy but it's considered an exploit.
It just dwells outside the standards of the game in my opinion and shouldn't be done =/
it <b>IS</b> an exploit, no matter how 'flexible' it is.
The great thing about devour is that it is essentially an instant kill against heavy armor. If the person you eat dies after being in your stomach for 3 seconds... great, eat another. You can destroy the HA that much faster. The first time I saw this I was annoyed. But then I started using it to my advantage. If I know that they are going to do that I just stun them, then move onto someone else. It saves me a bit of extra energy. And if I don't get the RFK no big deal, I'm an onos.
Granted, I've never played on a server with a kill delay longer than 5 seconds. If you want to keep pressing a button every 3 seconds to stay alive go ahead. Actaully now that I think about it, you could make a script that keeps killing you over and over, then when you actually wanna die, you press a button and it breaks the loop. I think I'm gonna go to work on that.
Finally, kill is important and can't be removed. On a large server I kill rather than evolve back to skulk after setting up my initial res tower. Saves me two res so I can fade sooner.
Unless there exists a command that I am not aware of, a command that is similar to <span style='font-family:courier'>wait</span> but does not prevent you from executing commands during its duration, such a script is not possible.
Unless there exists a command that I am not aware of, a command that is similar to <span style='font-family:courier'>wait</span> but does not prevent you from executing commands during its duration, such a script is not possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, true, but you could make a script that increases the kill countdown. If you play on a server with a 3 second countdown you don't want to have to keep hitting your killswitch every 3 seconds, so you could make a script that does it every second for 20 seconds. Then you'd only have to hit it every 20. Of course, I'd still forget more often than remember so for me this would be a bad idea. Or I could put in an echo that reminded me 5 seconds before it expired. I'm sure some people will do this. Personally I think it just one more thing to think about while in the middle of combat and I dont' need it.
But wait, you could automate it by having it detect if you haven't done anything for a while, like attack... since you don't attack sitting in the onos belly.
The wheels are turning...
But that would still require using the <span style='font-family:Courier'>wait</span> command, which would mean that during those 20 seconds you'd be unable to execute any commands. The only thing you'd have the ability to do during those 20 seconds would be to look around using the mouse.
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I disagree 100%. If the whole marine team is willing to kill themselves AND the aliens did not kill the observatory, then perhaps the marines will get a decent chance to fend off this attack. As I see it, anything that is a valid tactic in clan scrims and CAL is valid in pubs.
Like when you fall down to that ledge and get trapped inbetween the infamous sewer hive, or that other one I cant remember in NS_Mineshaft.
/stuck doesnt work and unless you are a fade and can somehow /stuck to the right position to blink out you are trapped.
Unless flayra says otherwise it's an exploit in my eyes, I don't care who does it, it's an exploit.
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shouldn't be able to /kill, then respawn with the distress beacon, its not the way the game was meant to be played.
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Says who, the dead skulk scrolls?
You're telling me, that as a gorge with carapace in refinery, if i want to change to a fade with regeneration, im expected to trundle the entire length of the map to marine start, and then wait around for someone to kill me -giving them RFK in the process- just so i can change my defence upgrade? No ta.
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Unless flayra says otherwise it's an exploit in my eyes, I don't care who does it, it's an exploit.
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You consider going DCs first an exploit as well? I don't ever recall Flayra saying *that* wasn't an 'exploit'.
I don't understand how you people reason, you don't make any sense in the slightest. You have this term "exploit" that has no consistant definition, you can't even agree what is or isnt an exploit, you don't have any logical reasoning behind the statements you make. After several years of listening to this crap, the best translation i can make of the use of the word Exploit is: "Tactic i don't use / don't like being used against me." or "Tactic which goes beyond what i previously believed possible in the game".
Sure you'll make statements like "Way the game was meant to be". And we're supposed to assume you mean way it was meant to be <b>by the developers</b>, as if that is supposed to actually be important. Yet it's clear from the example in this thread that what is really meant is "Way the game is meant to be, in my own personal fantasy vision of NS that exists in my head".
The game has a set of rules that define it. One consequence of this rule set is that it is possible to intentionally kill yourself and use beacon to get a marine team back to base quickly. Can anyone please explain to me why people complain about this and not, say:
- Commanders listening at res nodes around the hive at the start of the game, waiting for the sound of someone gestating to gorge, and then dropping an RT on the node to prevent the gorging building on it.
- Building an OC next to an empty comm chair to eternally **** off the commander.
- Dropping an unbuilt command chair/RTs/anything at all in the middle of a key location as a 'fake' relocation. To waste skulk time killing it, while you send 4 shotgunners to kill the hive in the first 30 seconds.
- Placing 5 mines ontop of eachother and then crouching down ontop of the pile in order to kill a fade.
- Blink hopping to blink around the map at full speed with no energy loss.
Tell me what, other than your own personal feelings, make any of these tricks any different from any other, or from the trick in question - using beacon to get marines back to base. And just to rule out one inevitable comment - no there is no 'official line' on any of the above.
<EDIT>-------
And on this subject:
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Unless there exists a command that I am not aware of, a command that is similar to wait but does not prevent you from executing commands during its duration, such a script is not possible.
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What you would do is, have 2 config files containing binds to all your movement, firing, weapon switch, etc. keys. One config file would have ordinary binds for these commands. The other config file would have these commands with a /kill added into certain binds. So you would be continually executing /kill everytime you did something common such as strafe. Now have a key to execute the 'ordinary' config file, and you'll suddenly stop resetting the timer, and will suicide. Not perfect, but meh.
and no DC first isn't an exploit, that's just being stupid ><
If you make an upgrade choice and you don't want it for your next evolution, guess what! you can do what I do... <b>live with it</b>
I respect you for your fade advice and stuff teoh, but if you really want to know what an exploit is in my mind at least then it's something that takes advantage of a mistake left in the game to gain an advantage that can't be 'excused' by the game universe or just general morals... especially anything involving a command that makes you suddenly drop dead =P
I don't just whine about anything, but kill to emergency beacon or save yourself 2 res you'd spend on skulking go straight in the exploit bin for me.
Other stuff I call exploits? explosions through walls (though that's mainly been fixed) aaand that's about it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I actually didn't class PG sitting as an exploit; after all IPs telefrag you and now even the PGs do.
I try to steer clear of things people get huffy about but my general ideas of what's an exploit are pretty flexible so you can get away with most things around me =P
if you want to get technical the word exploit from the dictionary applies to a heck of a lot of things that happen in NS and even real-life but it's really about what people consider drastically unfair and detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game than anything else =3
In truth I think emergency beacon should be used as it's played or flayra should change it to teleport all/selected marines to 'teleport' (ie respawn) in base.
actually I don't think any of the above is an exploit =P
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I didn't expect anyone to, that wasn't the question. The question was, considering you do not class any of those as 'exploits' what makes them any different from beaconing a marine team back to base. The kill command isnt an 'accident'. I assure you there is no one on the dev team who isnt capable of seeing the possible uses of the command. Your problem appears to be with the kill command itself, why i cannot imagine. Perhaps the ability to kill yourself contradicts your fantasy image of NS where you role play a soldier on a space station. Or perhaps you have issues with the console in general? Who knows. The point is, given your vauge and highly interpretable definition of an 'exploit', i can easily claim any of the examples i gave in my last post to be exploits. Something you would dissagree with.
Because of this, i put it to you, that the reason you are complaining about the use of /kill in this way, is not because it conforms to your definition of an exploit. But because you personally feel 'icky' about its usage for some obscure reason i cannot begin to fathom.
Now, i'm not going to attack you for having an opinion. However, you have to realise that it is an opinion, and doesn't carry a great deal of weight. The term exploit is so convinient because it doesn't have much of a definition in this context, so you can make it apply to just about anything. People use it as an easy way to make their opinions on a certain issue appear to be universal truths that must be obeyed. After all <i>exploits are bad</i>. If you can label a tactic you don't particularly like as an exploit, then suddenly it becomes evil and must be removed. This is laughable, its a witch hunt.
All you have here is an opinion on a certain trick. Drop the whole 'exploit' thing, the term is worthless. Lets get down to the real issue:
Does the ability to /kill and then beacon back to base have a negative impact on NS gameplay. Or would removing the ability to do so improve NS gameplay in some way. Try arguing that, it's 10x more valid than a **** contest over what is or isnt an 'exploit'.
Now for my take on the issue: The use of beacon and /kill to get a marine team back to base is a co-ordinated effort, that costs scanner energy and involves a high risk (of having the obs destroyed). But when pulled off correctly can be useful and adds an additional element to the marine game. Match play shows it clearly does not give the marine team an unwanted advantage. Therfore i see no reason to remove it.
Stop over thinking the problem people. The best solution to these kinds of problems is good admining.