I'm not sure who I agree with more; Crow or uitdebaan49; both of them have valid points which I agree with.
One thing I have to say however: if anyone *does* want a deathmatch, then surely NS is not the best mod to implement it.
) NS has a strong background, with all the manuals and storyline etc. An introduction of a DM version would destroy the atmosphere / environment.
) NS is a *huge* game, with about ten times the number of sprites/models etc than other mods. If your going to degenerate NS to a DM-clone, why bother with the extra detail?
) This is reflected in the sizes and disk-space taken up. My favourite DM mod, Rocket Crowbar, takes up 2.15 mb. NS takes up 449 mb, (more than 200 times bigger). If someone really wants a DM, would they really download the whole of NS when similar mods offer strategic DM-style action for much less resources.
) A *lot* of people, myself included, started playing NS because the tedious repitition of CS-style DM'ing started getting boring. By creating a NS DM version, I think the people leaving CS would migrate to alternate FPS RTS mods, such as the aforementioned S&I
<!--QuoteBegin--Crow+Sep 18 2003, 06:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crow @ Sep 18 2003, 06:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - NS fighting system sucks. There is really not much skill involved *don't pull out the stories abt ramboing 5 skulks across the wall. It's not needed.* Most people know what i'm talking about here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LoL... why will a skilled player decimate waves of average players then?
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Sep 18 2003, 12:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Sep 18 2003, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Buuuut what the problem with this is that when the server changes maps and you get Bloodbath what the heck are the 14 other players going to do? Well they can all join... but can you imagine Bloodbath with 8 players? co_maps are good for both small and large so when it changes its all good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice thing about the mapcycle is that the server admin can set a maxplayer and minplayer for the map. So if there are only 6 players it could skip Bast for example and if there were 24 it could skip a map designed for 6-10.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I'm skeptical. So much time is/was spent on balancing the elaborate res/upgrades system. How on earth is that going to meaningfully propagate to deathmatch?
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Sep 18 2003, 07:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Sep 18 2003, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A game like NS should have a Training Map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am working on a Training map!!! But at the moment i cant Finish the map, because i creat weapons as ent. and how to to make a Command Tutorial?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
i believe judgement should be reserved until it actually comes out. You never know what could happen...
I believe its still going to be 1 marine < 1 skulk, with or without bonuses. That means marines will still have to work together. And when marines work together, the aliens must work together in order to survive.
But lately that's all we've been seeing, so whatever.
My opinion is that you need to force a good, solid objective style of game play otherwise you are going to end up with too much diversity.
Even worse, you are going to end up with new players who DON'T KNOW just which way Natural Selection is supposed to be played.
Look at the game Subspace. Now that all these idiots are running user-created zones like Trench Wars, all these newbies get on that zone first, become used to it, and believe that Subspace was meant to be played that way.
They won't even touch one of the what used to be most popular zones that the original developers created such as WARZONE.
Why? Because in Warzone you actually have to know how to conserve energy, spend time upgrading, communicate with your team, and dedicate yourself to a task (such as defending base).
Instead, they just sit around in Trench Wars. A zone that requires no skill, very little teamwork, no required upgrading your ship, only one base to attack and defend with one flag to worry about.
Why? I guess humans will always be humans. Always taking the easy way out. Never wanting to expend any effort if they can be somewhat happy without doing so.
If you introduce this new game mode, there will be fewer servers running the current RTS element, fewer people playing the RTS element, and you're going to **** off all the people who actually like to "think" when playing a game.
But lately that's all we've been seeing, so whatever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. Flayra's ideas have been crap. Like this whole "Natural Selection" idea. WTH was that? Marines vs Aliens on space ships with a commander mode and multiple alien upgrades/evolutions? God. What a dumb idea. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My opinion is that you need to force a good, solid objective style of game play otherwise you are going to end up with too much diversity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m going to try to sound as nice as possible here. As long as you are going to present yourself as a flaming fool - <i>no one cares about your opinion.</i> Either contribute to all discussions with posts that mean something, and are well thought out - or don’t post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even worse, you are going to end up with new players who DON'T KNOW just which way Natural Selection is supposed to be played.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And which way is that? If there are two Natural Selections - then there are two ways to play it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? I guess humans will always be humans. Always taking the easy way out. Never wanting to expend any effort if they can be somewhat happy without doing so<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy way out? What the hell are you talking about. This is a <i>video game</i> not a job. Video games are supposed to be fun. Something that people do in their "free time." If someone does not find camping a res node for 10 minuets to be fun - guess what - they will no longer play Natural Selection. Offering another way to play opens up so many more choices. Choices, that might I ad, you cannot even judge because you do not know anything other than what you are told.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you introduce this new game mode, there will be fewer servers running the current RTS element, fewer people playing the RTS element, and you're going to **** off all the people who actually like to "think" when playing a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know this because you called Miss Cleo and managed to ask her, within your free first three minuets, what is going to happen if NSC is released? Impressive.
Let's be honest. The pure battle aspect of Natural Selection sucks, especially for the marines. You can't really compensate for recoil (as in Day of Defeat, for example) and the spread of bullets is pretty much random. This must change, especially when the Combat mode is introduced in 2.1. In original Natural Selection it's more about teamplay and the cool FPS/RTS mix than aiming. I would love a Natural Selection where you could actually aim and compensate, but at the same time enjoy the teamplay - and knowing that you are playing the most unique FPS there is. The Combat mode will be a great alternative for the times when you don't feel all that motivated to play the original Natural Selecton with its usually long and mentally demanding matches. However, without realistic recoil, NS: Combat will just be like a slightly more advanced HLDM clone - with teamplay. Pretty boring in other words.
<b>My tip:</b> Contact the Day of Defeat team and let them help you to include a realistic recoil system in the next client release of Natural Selection. Do it! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
The way people seem to be seeing this is that people will download the game play NS-lite, learn to shoot striagh and once they stat to dominate that will move onto NS-full where they will find it easier to play and hense the whole community will be improved.
To say this is optomistic is vastly understating the point.
What will happen is people will play NS-lite start to own move ot full NS and play in exactly the same way. After all they rule at blowing away skulks so why shouldn't they run off on their own and 0wN some aliens. Very few willl bother to learn the complex resources and tactics involved in the full games so the more complex version will stagnate and slowly die as people are diverted to the easier game.
NS is the tactics and resources that the full game bring. Remove those and all you have is a one of many DM
I want to know why this has came out of the blue? Why were the loyal fans in this forum not asked before-hand? These are the people who count are they not?
From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.) Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody. Yes I understand this will be hard, but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made. I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.
I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries.
I dont like Natural Selection Combat,it's more seemely like counter strike or day of defeat i think ns should be forever a first person shooter/real time strategic game as think superskulk <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thank you for that constructive and oh so wrong post.
Cal, since when is Flay responsible for checking things with us first?
Although I was doubtfull at first, this may be a fun break to take from NS instead of it growing stale. Not many details have been out, and we really don't know what it will be like. ;/
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> I think if i want play ns combat i would play tf first is best and nealry exactly to gameplay tf(team fortress).I think isnt a good idea crating a mod of ns seemed to for nearly kill for kill without any tactics and estrategical environments and gameplay systems and teamplay as the original one <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 18 2003, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 18 2003, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to know why this has came out of the blue? Why were the loyal fans in this forum not asked before-hand? These are the people who count are they not?
From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.) Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody. Yes I understand this will be hard, but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made. I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.
I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wake up and smell the coffe, most people would like to see NS:C come out over it not coming.
Reality check.
EDIT, I just realized the incredible amount of crap that's going on this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's be honest. The pure battle aspect of Natural Selection sucks, especially for the marines. You can't really compensate for recoil (as in Day of Defeat, for example) and the spread of bullets is pretty much random. This must change, especially when the Combat mode is introduced in 2.1. In original Natural Selection it's more about teamplay and the cool FPS/RTS mix than aiming. I would love a Natural Selection where you could actually aim and compensate, but at the same time enjoy the teamplay - and knowing that you are playing the most unique FPS there is. The Combat mode will be a great alternative for the times when you don't feel all that motivated to play the original Natural Selecton with its usually long and mentally demanding matches. However, without realistic recoil, NS: Combat will just be like a slightly more advanced HLDM clone - with teamplay. Pretty boring in other words.
My tip: Contact the Day of Defeat team and let them help you to include a realistic recoil system in the next client release of Natural Selection. Do it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DoD has a realisitic recoil system? NS needs fake recoil? ...the hell? NS:C will be pretty boring.. except the entire upgrade system and spawning in waves aspect combined that these maps would idealy be played after every 2 rounds of NS normal maps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way people seem to be seeing this is that people will download the game play NS-lite, learn to shoot striagh and once they stat to dominate that will move onto NS-full where they will find it easier to play and hense the whole community will be improved.
To say this is optomistic is vastly understating the point.
What will happen is people will play NS-lite start to own move ot full NS and play in exactly the same way. After all they rule at blowing away skulks so why shouldn't they run off on their own and 0wN some aliens. Very few willl bother to learn the complex resources and tactics involved in the full games so the more complex version will stagnate and slowly die as people are diverted to the easier game.
NS is the tactics and resources that the full game bring. Remove those and all you have is a one of many DM <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, you are right, no doubt about it. NS will be degraded by an add on that's nowhere near as complex and in-depth as the real thing.[/MOCK]
Sad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><conspiracy theory> Am I the only one who suspects that Flayra was somehow pressured into adding this new game mode to NS? </conspiracy theory> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think if i want play ns combat i would play tf first is best and nealry exactly to gameplay tf(team fortress).I think isnt a good idea crating a mod of ns seemed to for nearly kill for kill without any tactics and estrategical environments and gameplay systems and teamplay as the original one <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After you can get A's on your fourth grade english reports, then you can post on these forums.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yep, you are right, no doubt about it. NS will be degraded by an add on that's nowhere near as complex and in-depth as the real thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds right to me. What do the majority of gamers like? Mindless shoot-em-ups for the most part. Consider the case of as_ and cs_ maps for CS. Both of those maps require quite a bit more tactics, teamplay, and are more complex than the de_ maps, which are amazingly enough 100x as popular. But as_ and cs_ maps didn't get degraded by the 'add on' de_ maps you say? Hmmm.
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 18 2003, 08:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 18 2003, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to know why this has came out of the blue? Why were the loyal fans in this forum not asked before-hand? These are the people who count are they not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, how dare Flayra surprise us with news of new extra free stuff! He should let us know about every little thing he ever considers at the very earliest stages... who wants to be amazed with things anyway? Demand a refund!
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes I understand this will be hard,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a slight understatement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why ever not? Unless NS:C contains code that actively seeks out and destroys servers running Vanilla NS, there's no problem. Natural Selection will always be there... this is an *extra* mode.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Umm. I'm not honestly sure why you brought this up. I mean, I understand the relevance, I'm just not sure it changes anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care? And it doesn't screw up NS, because this doesn't replace NS, it's a separate mode. Your ever-loving, building-building, shotgun-wielding, parasite-carrying, marine-sporing, vent-lerking, defence-chambering, resource-noding, jet-packing, comm-chairing NS will still be there, same as always.
I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode!
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 18 2003, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 18 2003, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wake up and smell the coffe, most people would like to see NS:C come out over it not coming.
Reality check.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you need a good dose of reality yourself.
How are <i>you</i> so sure of what everybody else thinks?
I think this is a great idea, should add more fun and replayibility to the game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--slayer111+Sep 18 2003, 10:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (slayer111 @ Sep 18 2003, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 18 2003, 08:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 18 2003, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to know why this has came out of the blue? Why were the loyal fans in this forum not asked before-hand? These are the people who count are they not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, how dare Flayra surprise us with news of new extra free stuff! He should let us know about every little thing he ever considers at the very earliest stages... who wants to be amazed with things anyway? Demand a refund!
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes I understand this will be hard,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a slight understatement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why ever not? Unless NS:C contains code that actively seeks out and destroys servers running Vanilla NS, there's no problem. Natural Selection will always be there... this is an *extra* mode.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Umm. I'm not honestly sure why you brought this up. I mean, I understand the relevance, I'm just not sure it changes anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care? And it doesn't screw up NS, because this doesn't replace NS, it's a separate mode. Your ever-loving, building-building, shotgun-wielding, parasite-carrying, marine-sporing, vent-lerking, defence-chambering, resource-noding, jet-packing, comm-chairing NS will still be there, same as always.
I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
---------------------------------------- My reply starts here.
Ahhhh the joys of picking appart posts... Here we go:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, how dare Flayra surprise us with news of new extra free stuff! He should let us know about every little thing he ever considers at the very earliest stages... who wants to be amazed with things anyway? Demand a refund!
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if Flayra suprised us with something better than this? Yes, he should let us know what's going on. NS is seriously bugging me because we are kept in the dark about EVERYTHING, no dates, no anything. It was fun leading up to NS, but I would atleast like some time to expect 2.1 which was proposed to be released not that long ago, then retracted.
Your point is?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My points are based upon how NS:C effects other things. A lot of people are saying it's a good idea without thinking any deeper than, "ohhhhhh it's NS DM, COOL!!!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about NS 2.0 gets fixed first? This appeals to everybody who plays NS, or they wouldn't be playing it, would they? Don't get me started on "2.0 is perfect," I thought of a whole list of bugs/gameplay problems.
It's not an understatement. It's not asking much to actually fix one thing before you start another thing is it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why ever not? Unless NS:C contains code that actively seeks out and destroys servers running Vanilla NS, there's no problem. Natural Selection will always be there... this is an *extra* mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection will always be there, yes. But read some of the points made in this topic of how it could effect, and most likely will effect normal NS. If a lot of people feel that an idea won't work, it should be scrapped. Something like NS:C is bound to cause a stir, I just think Flayra should have asked us what we want and heard us out before going ahead with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, NS:C is out of place in NS... I play NS because of what it is... DM maps/CS style of play doesn't interest me much, that's why I play NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've got nothing else to go on, and nobody has made a post which leads me to think NS:C isn't what I think it is.
<b>Forlorn</b>: You or me have no proof that more/less people want to see NS:C implemented. There's a lot more people I know who think NS:C is a bad idea, hence why I posted. Also, I see a lot of educated posts with worries and possible problems NS:C will cause.
Going back to the post I made before this (which you both probably didn't bother reading.) NS:C can be the best game ever, but fix 2.0 first!!!
Now, you'll probably reply... But it's a case of you having your opinions and me having mine, we're not going to change each other's view points. Flayra won't stop making this, so it's probably a waste of time me even posting why I don't like the idea.
Nothing here is a personal attack of any sort. If I sound annoyed it's because I don't like the idea of NS:C.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Sep 18 2003, 05:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Sep 18 2003, 05:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 18 2003, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 18 2003, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wake up and smell the coffe, most people would like to see NS:C come out over it not coming.
Reality check.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you need a good dose of reality yourself.
How are <i>you</i> so sure of what everybody else thinks? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To the best of my knowledge:
My clan, IRC, and the 20 pages in this thread seem to confirm to me that NS:C is being anticipated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS:C is a good way to take a break after a long epic round of ns_eclipse.
I don't like it. The slightly brainy aspect of the original NS deterred the "[m4j1n]SSJh4x0r" crowd. This new version is too much of a line out to the CS community. I don't mind more players, but I do mind giving the rambo crowd exactly what they wanted.
If you ask me, they could have found <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=19014' target='_blank'>another idea</a> for an alternate gameplay mode that would be pretty fun.
I'm agreeing with CaL-Fin here. The (easier, and hence more popular) NS:C gameplay will leak into the original NS and basically kill it. It's hard enough to have a pub game as it is, now with teams made up of half-rambos, we're going to see a new wave of alien domination and general death of the original NS.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't like it. The slightly brainy aspect of the original NS deterred the "[m4j1n]SSJh4x0r" crowd. This new version is too much of a line out to the CS community. I don't mind more players, but I do mind giving the rambo crowd exactly what they wanted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Have you actually considered that there is another crowd of NS that likes to emphasize their FPS skills as much as their strategy skills? Instead you call it label it the rambo crowd?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm agreeing with CaL-Fin here. The (easier, and hence more popular) NS:C gameplay will leak into the original NS and basically kill it. It's hard enough to have a pub game as it is, now with teams made up of half-rambos, we're going to see a new wave of alien domination and general death of the original NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is crap logic. I know a ton of HL mods that are easier to play yet aren't nearly as popular.
By the same tolken, a lot of people have been turned off by NS's steep learning curve. People would first learn the basics, shooting, killing, and getting different lifeforms, and understand the game, and then play the real game with strategy involved, and understand how it all falls together. And, at the same time, people would also have fun.
You may say the answer is a training map or manual, but this simply isn't true; most people would like to enjoy what the game has to offer, not some crappy simulation or book.
It doesn't sound like something I would want to play often (much like siege, pillbox, etc.), but it has one advantage that actually makes NS regular mode better! People will actually join almost empty servers!
I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about. Most servers in the list are either 0/x or just about full, simply because regular NS is not fun to play at all until about 5 players per team. If NS:C gets people to join and kill time for a while, and then at some point the game switches over to regular NS when there are enough players, I'm all for it. As it stands, the only way to get a not-immensely-popular server started from 0 players is to have half a clan join one server.
As for NS:C only servers, I'll pass. I don't think it would hold my attention unless it was just a means to an end, that end being a warmup and player-base builder for a real game.
Hmm... NS: Combat seems (I said seems) closer to Quake in an NS environment instead of CS (since CS is Quake with military weapons). But it's kind of the point, since it's uh... Combat. It will be popular in some aspects as it pleases the fast-paced deathmatch people who don't like long learning curves, while it will disappoint first person strategy gamers as this gamemode nullifies the main feature behind the hybrid genre. Instead it's a first person shooter with upgrades like CS with the WC3 plugin (CS is very popular, but it's no longer a counter-terrorism game). <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would predict that this gamemode will be VERY popular and increase the total number of servers, but the ratio between normal NS and NS: Combat is what I'm worried about. Most likely the majority of NS servers will be running the NS: Combat gamemode and only a handful will do normal NS servers (probably private too) as it's too hard to learn (and thus too "boring" for other gamers). It will have the CS effect where it's a victim of its own success. Big fans of the first person strategy genre will have problems playing NS unless he/she's a CAL player or has the password to a private server (being a trusted regular). Speaking of CAL, I predict NS: Combat should have absolutely no effect on it, so clanners will continue playing regular NS, etc.
Well those are my thoughts on this, and whatever happens, happens. I mean, I'm going to play NS either way, and flaming won't do anything but upset the developers, so I'll just post what I feel and see what happens. Hopefully careful consideration and design will be made (thanks for making the topic for discussion).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? Have you actually considered that there is another crowd of NS that likes to emphasize their FPS skills as much as their strategy skills? Instead you call it label it the rambo crowd?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you please re-word that? I've read it several times and it makes no sense. I reckon NS:C will definately enduce more ramboing, either because of an influx of CS players or NS:C encouraging being a rambo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is crap logic. I know a ton of HL mods that are easier to play yet aren't nearly as popular.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy to play? TFC, DOD and CS are the big games with HL, all easy to pick up and all owned by Valve, why? Because they are simple to play. Also, just because you don't agree with a comment, does not make it "crap."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By the same tolken, a lot of people have been turned off by NS's steep learning curve. People would first learn the basics, shooting, killing, and getting different lifeforms, and understand the game, and then play the real game with strategy involved, and understand how it all falls together. And, at the same time, people would also have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who would join through NS:C will get a very cut down simplified version of NS... Almost totally different how you do things in normal NS. When they come to normal NS they will be either "turned off by the steep learning curve," or go rambo because they know no better.
What happens when a server plays a NS:C map, then it switches to a normal NS map? Some NS:C players will leave, NS players will join and have a game with rambos. This may not be true, but it is a VERY possible scenario. Let's hope servers put what maps they are playing in their title, or the NS team have a solution.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may say the answer is a training map or manual, but this simply isn't true; most people would like to enjoy what the game has to offer, not some crappy simulation or book.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about you, but when I downloaded NS I tried to play the training which didn't work. When a friend of mine tried NS he asked why the training didn't work.
At least if people tried to play NS and were scared by the "steep learning curve" then they can use the training map to see what to do. For the record, I never read the manual, I just downloaded NS and started playing it.
Even though in some points in the game I go rambo cause everyone else is distracting aliens at a another point on the map, I do still do team work when it calls for it, so this NS:C sounds like a very good Idea.
Comments
One thing I have to say however: if anyone *does* want a deathmatch, then surely NS is not the best mod to implement it.
) NS has a strong background, with all the manuals and storyline etc. An introduction of a DM version would destroy the atmosphere / environment.
) NS is a *huge* game, with about ten times the number of sprites/models etc than other mods. If your going to degenerate NS to a DM-clone, why bother with the extra detail?
) This is reflected in the sizes and disk-space taken up. My favourite DM mod, Rocket Crowbar, takes up 2.15 mb. NS takes up 449 mb, (more than 200 times bigger). If someone really wants a DM, would they really download the whole of NS when similar mods offer strategic DM-style action for much less resources.
) A *lot* of people, myself included, started playing NS because the tedious repitition of CS-style DM'ing started getting boring. By creating a NS DM version, I think the people leaving CS would migrate to alternate FPS RTS mods, such as the aforementioned S&I
Thats just my personal view anyway :-)
LoL... why will a skilled player decimate waves of average players then?
Nice thing about the mapcycle is that the server admin can set a maxplayer and minplayer for the map. So if there are only 6 players it could skip Bast for example and if there were 24 it could skip a map designed for 6-10.
I am working on a Training map!!!
But at the moment i cant Finish the map, because i creat weapons as ent. and how to to make a Command Tutorial?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe its still going to be 1 marine < 1 skulk, with or without bonuses. That means marines will still have to work together. And when marines work together, the aliens must work together in order to survive.
But lately that's all we've been seeing, so whatever.
My opinion is that you need to force a good, solid objective style of game play otherwise you are going to end up with too much diversity.
Even worse, you are going to end up with new players who DON'T KNOW just which way Natural Selection is supposed to be played.
Look at the game Subspace. Now that all these idiots are running user-created zones like Trench Wars, all these newbies get on that zone first, become used to it, and believe that Subspace was meant to be played that way.
They won't even touch one of the what used to be most popular zones that the original developers created such as WARZONE.
Why? Because in Warzone you actually have to know how to conserve energy, spend time upgrading, communicate with your team, and dedicate yourself to a task (such as defending base).
Instead, they just sit around in Trench Wars. A zone that requires no skill, very little teamwork, no required upgrading your ship, only one base to attack and defend with one flag to worry about.
Why? I guess humans will always be humans. Always taking the easy way out. Never wanting to expend any effort if they can be somewhat happy without doing so.
If you introduce this new game mode, there will be fewer servers running the current RTS element, fewer people playing the RTS element, and you're going to **** off all the people who actually like to "think" when playing a game.
But lately that's all we've been seeing, so whatever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Flayra's ideas have been crap. Like this whole "Natural Selection" idea. WTH was that? Marines vs Aliens on space ships with a commander mode and multiple alien upgrades/evolutions? God. What a dumb idea. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
My opinion is that you need to force a good, solid objective style of game play otherwise you are going to end up with too much diversity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m going to try to sound as nice as possible here. As long as you are going to present yourself as a flaming fool - <i>no one cares about your opinion.</i> Either contribute to all discussions with posts that mean something, and are well thought out - or don’t post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even worse, you are going to end up with new players who DON'T KNOW just which way Natural Selection is supposed to be played.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And which way is that? If there are two Natural Selections - then there are two ways to play it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? I guess humans will always be humans. Always taking the easy way out. Never wanting to expend any effort if they can be somewhat happy without doing so<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy way out? What the hell are you talking about. This is a <i>video game</i> not a job. Video games are supposed to be fun. Something that people do in their "free time." If someone does not find camping a res node for 10 minuets to be fun - guess what - they will no longer play Natural Selection. Offering another way to play opens up so many more choices. Choices, that might I ad, you cannot even judge because you do not know anything other than what you are told.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you introduce this new game mode, there will be fewer servers running the current RTS element, fewer people playing the RTS element, and you're going to **** off all the people who actually like to "think" when playing a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know this because you called Miss Cleo and managed to ask her, within your free first three minuets, what is going to happen if NSC is released? Impressive.
<b>My tip:</b> Contact the Day of Defeat team and let them help you to include a realistic recoil system in the next client release of Natural Selection. Do it! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
To say this is optomistic is vastly understating the point.
What will happen is people will play NS-lite start to own move ot full NS and play in exactly the same way. After all they rule at blowing away skulks so why shouldn't they run off on their own and 0wN some aliens. Very few willl bother to learn the complex resources and tactics involved in the full games so the more complex version will stagnate and slowly die as people are diverted to the easier game.
NS is the tactics and resources that the full game bring. Remove those and all you have is a one of many DM
Am I the only one who suspects that Flayra was somehow pressured into adding this new game mode to NS?
</conspiracy theory>
From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.) Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody. Yes I understand this will be hard, but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made. I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.
I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries.
Cal, since when is Flay responsible for checking things with us first?
Although I was doubtfull at first, this may be a fun break to take from NS instead of it growing stale. Not many details have been out, and we really don't know what it will be like. ;/
NS isnt like TFC, and neither is NS:C.
From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.) Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody. Yes I understand this will be hard, but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made. I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.
I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wake up and smell the coffe, most people would like to see NS:C come out over it not coming.
Reality check.
EDIT, I just realized the incredible amount of crap that's going on this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's be honest. The pure battle aspect of Natural Selection sucks, especially for the marines. You can't really compensate for recoil (as in Day of Defeat, for example) and the spread of bullets is pretty much random. This must change, especially when the Combat mode is introduced in 2.1. In original Natural Selection it's more about teamplay and the cool FPS/RTS mix than aiming. I would love a Natural Selection where you could actually aim and compensate, but at the same time enjoy the teamplay - and knowing that you are playing the most unique FPS there is. The Combat mode will be a great alternative for the times when you don't feel all that motivated to play the original Natural Selecton with its usually long and mentally demanding matches. However, without realistic recoil, NS: Combat will just be like a slightly more advanced HLDM clone - with teamplay. Pretty boring in other words.
My tip: Contact the Day of Defeat team and let them help you to include a realistic recoil system in the next client release of Natural Selection. Do it! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DoD has a realisitic recoil system? NS needs fake recoil? ...the hell? NS:C will be pretty boring.. except the entire upgrade system and spawning in waves aspect combined that these maps would idealy be played after every 2 rounds of NS normal maps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way people seem to be seeing this is that people will download the game play NS-lite, learn to shoot striagh and once they stat to dominate that will move onto NS-full where they will find it easier to play and hense the whole community will be improved.
To say this is optomistic is vastly understating the point.
What will happen is people will play NS-lite start to own move ot full NS and play in exactly the same way. After all they rule at blowing away skulks so why shouldn't they run off on their own and 0wN some aliens. Very few willl bother to learn the complex resources and tactics involved in the full games so the more complex version will stagnate and slowly die as people are diverted to the easier game.
NS is the tactics and resources that the full game bring. Remove those and all you have is a one of many DM <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, you are right, no doubt about it. NS will be degraded by an add on that's nowhere near as complex and in-depth as the real thing.[/MOCK]
Sad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><conspiracy theory>
Am I the only one who suspects that Flayra was somehow pressured into adding this new game mode to NS?
</conspiracy theory>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think if i want play ns combat i would play tf first is best and nealry exactly to gameplay tf(team fortress).I think isnt a good idea crating a mod of ns seemed to for nearly kill for kill without any tactics and estrategical environments and gameplay systems and teamplay as the original one <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After you can get A's on your fourth grade english reports, then you can post on these forums.
Sounds right to me. What do the majority of gamers like? Mindless shoot-em-ups for the most part. Consider the case of as_ and cs_ maps for CS. Both of those maps require quite a bit more tactics, teamplay, and are more complex than the de_ maps, which are amazingly enough 100x as popular. But as_ and cs_ maps didn't get degraded by the 'add on' de_ maps you say? Hmmm.
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes I understand this will be hard,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a slight understatement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why ever not? Unless NS:C contains code that actively seeks out and destroys servers running Vanilla NS, there's no problem. Natural Selection will always be there... this is an *extra* mode.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Umm. I'm not honestly sure why you brought this up. I mean, I understand the relevance, I'm just not sure it changes anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care? And it doesn't screw up NS, because this doesn't replace NS, it's a separate mode. Your ever-loving, building-building, shotgun-wielding, parasite-carrying, marine-sporing, vent-lerking, defence-chambering, resource-noding, jet-packing, comm-chairing NS will still be there, same as always.
I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode!
Reality check.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you need a good dose of reality yourself.
How are <i>you</i> so sure of what everybody else thinks?
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I can tell a lot of people are very unhappy about this (me for one.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra should be working on something which is pleasing for everybody.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes I understand this will be hard,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's a slight understatement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but if a lot of the community is unhappy it shouldn't be made.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why ever not? Unless NS:C contains code that actively seeks out and destroys servers running Vanilla NS, there's no problem. Natural Selection will always be there... this is an *extra* mode.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying MvsM/AvsA is good or bad, but it would be accepted by most people, unlike this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Umm. I'm not honestly sure why you brought this up. I mean, I understand the relevance, I'm just not sure it changes anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really care if NS:C is the best game ever. The fact is that it screws up almost everything else about NS in my eyes. Just read some posts in this thread about people's worries.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care? And it doesn't screw up NS, because this doesn't replace NS, it's a separate mode. Your ever-loving, building-building, shotgun-wielding, parasite-carrying, marine-sporing, vent-lerking, defence-chambering, resource-noding, jet-packing, comm-chairing NS will still be there, same as always.
I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
---------------------------------------- My reply starts here.
Ahhhh the joys of picking appart posts... Here we go:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, how dare Flayra surprise us with news of new extra free stuff! He should let us know about every little thing he ever considers at the very earliest stages... who wants to be amazed with things anyway? Demand a refund!
Incidentally, I think a system should be put place in NS so you always know what the other team is doing tactics-wise. Surprises suck. </sarcasm><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if Flayra suprised us with something better than this? Yes, he should let us know what's going on. NS is seriously bugging me because we are kept in the dark about EVERYTHING, no dates, no anything. It was fun leading up to NS, but I would atleast like some time to expect 2.1 which was proposed to be released not that long ago, then retracted.
Your point is?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yup, and in all probability, a lot more are completely fine about it. It's the usual thing; the people who like stuff generally won't say anything, they'll sit back and enjoy it. The nay-sayers will trumpet their disgust loudly. It's a vocal minority.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My points are based upon how NS:C effects other things. A lot of people are saying it's a good idea without thinking any deeper than, "ohhhhhh it's NS DM, COOL!!!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, Flayra is great, this is true. He's an amazing fellow... the whole team are. Natural Selection is wonderful. But you're talking about creating what is *literally* the perfect game, one that will appeal to *everyone*. That's kinda, you know, impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's a slight understatement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about NS 2.0 gets fixed first? This appeals to everybody who plays NS, or they wouldn't be playing it, would they? Don't get me started on "2.0 is perfect," I thought of a whole list of bugs/gameplay problems.
It's not an understatement. It's not asking much to actually fix one thing before you start another thing is it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why ever not? Unless NS:C contains code that actively seeks out and destroys servers running Vanilla NS, there's no problem. Natural Selection will always be there... this is an *extra* mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection will always be there, yes. But read some of the points made in this topic of how it could effect, and most likely will effect normal NS. If a lot of people feel that an idea won't work, it should be scrapped. Something like NS:C is bound to cause a stir, I just think Flayra should have asked us what we want and heard us out before going ahead with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you say he should make a game everyone will love, and yet if he does make the best game ever, you don't care?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, NS:C is out of place in NS... I play NS because of what it is... DM maps/CS style of play doesn't interest me much, that's why I play NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll say again; wait and see. Don't judge before we even know much about the mode!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've got nothing else to go on, and nobody has made a post which leads me to think NS:C isn't what I think it is.
<b>Forlorn</b>: You or me have no proof that more/less people want to see NS:C implemented. There's a lot more people I know who think NS:C is a bad idea, hence why I posted. Also, I see a lot of educated posts with worries and possible problems NS:C will cause.
Going back to the post I made before this (which you both probably didn't bother reading.) NS:C can be the best game ever, but fix 2.0 first!!!
Now, you'll probably reply... But it's a case of you having your opinions and me having mine, we're not going to change each other's view points. Flayra won't stop making this, so it's probably a waste of time me even posting why I don't like the idea.
Nothing here is a personal attack of any sort. If I sound annoyed it's because I don't like the idea of NS:C.
Edit: Made it easier to read.
There.
Reality check.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you need a good dose of reality yourself.
How are <i>you</i> so sure of what everybody else thinks? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To the best of my knowledge:
My clan, IRC, and the 20 pages in this thread seem to confirm to me that NS:C is being anticipated.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS:C is a good way to take a break after a long epic round of ns_eclipse.
There. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is precisely why most experienced players will enjoy NS:C,
and newbs will like it to get a feel for the game. It works perfectly.
If you ask me, they could have found <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=19014' target='_blank'>another idea</a> for an alternate gameplay mode that would be pretty fun.
I'm agreeing with CaL-Fin here. The (easier, and hence more popular) NS:C gameplay will leak into the original NS and basically kill it. It's hard enough to have a pub game as it is, now with teams made up of half-rambos, we're going to see a new wave of alien domination and general death of the original NS.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't like it. The slightly brainy aspect of the original NS deterred the "[m4j1n]SSJh4x0r" crowd. This new version is too much of a line out to the CS community. I don't mind more players, but I do mind giving the rambo crowd exactly what they wanted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Have you actually considered that there is another crowd of NS that likes to emphasize their FPS skills as much as their strategy skills? Instead you call it label it the rambo crowd?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm agreeing with CaL-Fin here. The (easier, and hence more popular) NS:C gameplay will leak into the original NS and basically kill it. It's hard enough to have a pub game as it is, now with teams made up of half-rambos, we're going to see a new wave of alien domination and general death of the original NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is crap logic. I know a ton of HL mods that are easier to play yet aren't nearly as popular.
By the same tolken, a lot of people have been turned off by NS's steep learning curve. People would first learn the basics, shooting, killing, and getting different lifeforms, and understand the game, and then play the real game with strategy involved, and understand how it all falls together. And, at the same time, people would also have fun.
You may say the answer is a training map or manual, but this simply isn't true; most people would like to enjoy what the game has to offer, not some crappy simulation or book.
I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about. Most servers in the list are either 0/x or just about full, simply because regular NS is not fun to play at all until about 5 players per team. If NS:C gets people to join and kill time for a while, and then at some point the game switches over to regular NS when there are enough players, I'm all for it. As it stands, the only way to get a not-immensely-popular server started from 0 players is to have half a clan join one server.
As for NS:C only servers, I'll pass. I don't think it would hold my attention unless it was just a means to an end, that end being a warmup and player-base builder for a real game.
I would predict that this gamemode will be VERY popular and increase the total number of servers, but the ratio between normal NS and NS: Combat is what I'm worried about. Most likely the majority of NS servers will be running the NS: Combat gamemode and only a handful will do normal NS servers (probably private too) as it's too hard to learn (and thus too "boring" for other gamers). It will have the CS effect where it's a victim of its own success. Big fans of the first person strategy genre will have problems playing NS unless he/she's a CAL player or has the password to a private server (being a trusted regular). Speaking of CAL, I predict NS: Combat should have absolutely no effect on it, so clanners will continue playing regular NS, etc.
Well those are my thoughts on this, and whatever happens, happens. I mean, I'm going to play NS either way, and flaming won't do anything but upset the developers, so I'll just post what I feel and see what happens. Hopefully careful consideration and design will be made (thanks for making the topic for discussion).
Can you please re-word that? I've read it several times and it makes no sense. I reckon NS:C will definately enduce more ramboing, either because of an influx of CS players or NS:C encouraging being a rambo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is crap logic. I know a ton of HL mods that are easier to play yet aren't nearly as popular.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy to play? TFC, DOD and CS are the big games with HL, all easy to pick up and all owned by Valve, why? Because they are simple to play. Also, just because you don't agree with a comment, does not make it "crap."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By the same tolken, a lot of people have been turned off by NS's steep learning curve. People would first learn the basics, shooting, killing, and getting different lifeforms, and understand the game, and then play the real game with strategy involved, and understand how it all falls together. And, at the same time, people would also have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People who would join through NS:C will get a very cut down simplified version of NS... Almost totally different how you do things in normal NS. When they come to normal NS they will be either "turned off by the steep learning curve," or go rambo because they know no better.
What happens when a server plays a NS:C map, then it switches to a normal NS map? Some NS:C players will leave, NS players will join and have a game with rambos. This may not be true, but it is a VERY possible scenario. Let's hope servers put what maps they are playing in their title, or the NS team have a solution.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may say the answer is a training map or manual, but this simply isn't true; most people would like to enjoy what the game has to offer, not some crappy simulation or book.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about you, but when I downloaded NS I tried to play the training which didn't work. When a friend of mine tried NS he asked why the training didn't work.
At least if people tried to play NS and were scared by the "steep learning curve" then they can use the training map to see what to do. For the record, I never read the manual, I just downloaded NS and started playing it.