Comm Chair Blocking
SillyGoose
Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14572Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14572Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Is it an exploit?</div> Well today I was playing NS on the Carapace 2.01d server (on ns_origin) and there wasnt a comm when we needed one to secure cargo late in the game (double res point). Now we had lots of res so I put up a phase, TF, and lots of turrets and then proceeded to put one comm chair at every door so that oni would have a harder time getting through. Someone said that was exploiting, but I really dont see it as since it costs 20(?) res per comm chair and since most rooms have at least 2 entrences thats at least 40 res. I just want to know how the NS forum regs feel about this. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
<b>I disapprove of this tactic, but I am not eloquent enough to express my disagreement without resorting to personal attacks.</b>
There is a reason that there are no walls on the marines tech tree!
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ON NS_mineshaft Marines relocated and holed up in the sewer hive, up on that small ledge, they put CC on the top of the ramp and the ladder so you couldn't get an onos up there without getting stuck. so we just tried to take down the CCs and they died, they bought new ones! so frustrating <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like I said, at most (and in this case) it's lame, like GL spam. GL spam isn't an exploit, but it IS a lame TACTIC.
Im kind of 50/50 on this one. I can definetly see how it can be considered cheap and an exploit. But honestly as a commander, Ill do anything to see my marines win. If blocking ladders and doorways with comm chairs helps im going to take advantage of it. Ive only used this "tactic" twice: Once on Tanith to block the ladder from Acidic to chemical transport, and once on veil when I had heavies building a TF outside pipeline, we had plenty of res and the game was over so when i saw an onos trying to come through I dropped a chair in front of him.
I usually never have the res to do it though.
-Lee
OCs have a offensive capability, can be destroyed easilly, and are supposed to "block" areas off so marines are slowed.
CCs on the other hand have a crapload of HP and thus cannot be destroyed easilly and have NO offensive power; they dont do any damage to anything directly
Thus, using CCs in a non-intended way as a wall is a exploit, since you are <b>exploiting</b> the fact that they are so difficult to destroy to block off a area. The differance between a OC and CC in the middle of the hallway? a single OC cannot slow marines for very long and marines can just walk right past it no matter what they are (GLer, shotty, HA, JP... etc) but if there's a CC there the larger alien classes have a hard time moving around it, and only the high-damage-dealers can take it out quickly. couple it with some turrets behind it and its VERY hard and takes VERY long to destroy.
exploit, 110%. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-JohnnySmash
Walls of Lame are simply a bunch of static defenses put in one place. It's a tactic. The fact that they block the way doesn't matter since they'll kill you in an instant. GLs are designed to counter static defense. In any RTS you can put up a bunch of static defense to hold off the enemy, but as soon as some siege units arrive all that money goes down the drain.
Medpack spamming would be an exploit, but it's well known and hasn't been taken out yet. This is enough proof to show that the team considers it a feature. Otherwise there'd be like a 3 second delay between med packs or such.
-JohnnySmash
Jesus, come on guys.
My suggestion is if you guys don't like it that it has so much HP, then get Flayra to lower it. That was you won't have to worry about a CC in the hallway. Sheesh.
It might be cheap and unorthodox, but it's not an exploit. Besides, it's not difficult to counter. Just co-ordinate with your team to attack a specific cc.
I believe its an exploit... Flayra and the team doesn't catch every thing. I'm sorry its a fact, not to mention trying to combat pithy little crap like this - there's a lot of weird stuff people do in NS, but if it works to their advantage, they do it. It might be looked at and fixed in the next patch.
Personally I hate TF farms. A terrible 1.0 tactic resurrected. They should have limited the # of turrets that can be controlled by a TF. But that's a whole other thread.
Sorry to get off topic
It might be cheap and unorthodox, but it's not an exploit. Besides, it's not difficult to counter. Just co-ordinate with your team to attack a specific cc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly. The correct thing to do is wait until a patch that would fix it. As was stated previously, medpack spamming is considered an exploit by alot of the community, but Flayra himself said that it isn't. "CC in the doorway" has been around just as long, and hey, CCs are CHEAPER, so you can see that the dev team doesn't consider it an exploit (this being said since there is NO official word on the matter from the team). Otherwise, they wouldn't have lowered the cost, or it'd be fixed.
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I completley understand that, but if it can be countered easily why should it be considered an exploit? It might have alot of HP, but one onos can take down a CC in about 30-60 seconds. Frankly I think its pretty cool how NS is taking on a life of its own. Its just like a RTS, people are inventing new tactics through unconventional means. Remember starcraft? Remember the Terran "supply depot defense" ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->then why was the price lowered in the 2.01d patch?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only that, but lowered the building time!
Thats a valid tactic, because it is easy to take out with SO many units. Hydras can attack it outside the marine's range (marines inside bunker thats behind the supply depots) micro the lings to attack one supply depot and keep the pressure on... more in seige tanks, use dragoons... even the defiler's ability Plauge for god's sakes!!! its so widely counterable its like a WoL in NS; it just slows you down with no real damage done if you took it down correctly.
the command chair, however...
Think of adding 500 more HP and 10 armor to the supply depot [and decrease build time (increasing repair rate)] and see how long the bunker behind it lasts <i>now.</i> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
And many people believe it is an exploit because it can be used to advantage. If that is the case, and if that is the reason they object to it, then they should consider killing opponents and exploit too. I applaude a commander when ever I see them do something unorthadox and succeed. It actually takes skill and thinking to use something in a new way that helps, and there is a reason it helps against mindless frag seeking players.
Unfair? I dare any one to recall a time when CC spam gave the marines an <i>Unfare</i> advatage. If they had the rez to burn they already had an advantage. Sure it is annoying, but only weak people who are unable to deal with it would consider it unfair. If you think it's unfair then you <u>already</u> have a problem.
I guess I'm one that would say it's a tactic, in a real life situation if marines are capable of making a wall of nano plate that can block things they would do just that, even if that isn't the primary purpose of the structure.
Constructable walls
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Why add a wall if there is a CC already he?
Any remember the infamous Zileas? Hehe flying Reavers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
What the frick does "it's an exploit" mean anyway? Exploiting what? Exploiting a bug you say? How is this a bug when the game allows you to place a cc anywhere you want? /sigh
If the devs fix this in the next patch than fair enough, it's up to them... For now it should be available for everyone to use without others whining and crying.
Woa hold on there, you mean you can drop a CC anywhere on the map? Amazing, who'd have thought it. I mean, if it were possible i would have expected it to have been done to death by everyone and their grandma since the days of 1.0x or something.
Oh wait...
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If the devs fix this in the next patch than fair enough
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Tell me, what exactly do you mean by "fix"?
If the devs fix this in the next patch than fair enough
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Tell me, what exactly do you mean by "fix"? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah ok, maybe I worded it wrong. There's nothing wrong with it full stop... By "fix" I meant "remove it from the game". Of course it doesn't have to, because it's a legit tactic, and believe the devs have said this anyway?
There is a reason that there are no walls on the marines tech tree! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could turn that around, and say the reason there are no walls in the marine tech tree is because the CC does the job.
Me, I'd just point out two things... 1, it does just as good a job blocking marines IN as blocking aliens OUT, and two, it blocks offensive fire, meaning it's usually fairly safe for some of the smaller units the destroy it, without fear of marines/turrets shooting them over the top. Sure, it takes time, but that's time that a clever gorge can be building up some chambers just outside, making the base rush that much more easy when it comes... and it will come, you better believe it.
1) The marines just delayed the inevitable i.e. they lost or was otherwise a waste of res
2) The marines were winning happily and made life easy for themselves.
Even if, in this magical game once upon a time, the comm built two CCs that blocked an onos and was critical in the development of the game, he could have dropped some weapons to kill the onos instead. Or some mines to the same effect. Or got an armour/weapon upgrade. It's just spending res in a different way to get the same effect.
It's the same rational as medpacks. A comm can spam medpacks in a certain situation, and sometimes the marines all die and the outpost/base/RT/wotever gets eaten and it's a waste of res and other times it saves the day. The same with CCs.
I also would like to add I see scenario 1 a <b>lot</b> more then 2.
It might be cheap and unorthodox, but it's not an exploit. Besides, it's not difficult to counter. Just co-ordinate with your team to attack a specific cc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
50 res can effectively block the aliens level 5 from entering your base, it can be welded easily and be replaced easily
However, in relation to games, It is quite often refered to taking advantage of something unfairly. Of course, now it is injected with some subjectivity because what *is* unfair?
The commander chair is a good example. Due to its nature, it has to be able to sustain a large amount of damage, and thusly an unbuilt or built comm chair has to have a lot of HP. There's no problem with this in and of itself, and it's pretty obvious why you'd want the chair to have so much hp when aliens swarm in and starts to chew on everything.
Now, the issue of whether it is exploiting or not arises when you take advantage of the huge amount of hp on one of these things to build walls. Clearly, it was not the original intent. I'll refrain from commenting on whether it was attempted fixed or not in 2.0, other than citing that the HP bug where CC's started with full hp was fixed, and perhaps it was thought this was enough to counter this use of CC's.
I am not sure I'd call it an exploit, tho. It's more akin to a cheese, which is another popular game term which indicates it's an unfair or bad form tactic, but without acknowledging whether or not it was an intentional feature from the developers side.
A more problematic case is walls of electrified turret factories, rarely used because it rarely makes sense BUT ~3 electrified turret factories in one location seems absolutely legal.