Guys, try not to start a flamewar like it happened in IRC. This is a hot topic and its very interesting, but we all know none of the parties will change their minds. NS will be how the dev team makes it, not how u want it made. And i doubt that flayra will let his sweet mod be abused by players who like to exploit bugs.
Im finding it very difficult not to argue back, its a personality flaw where... its not that I have to be right (although thats nice), its more that every argument must reach its natural conclusion which is where 1 party says 'yes, your right'.
Now Im not trying to change anyones opinions and they are allowed to like slower games of course, Im only trying to change their view on what BHing IS. You see, all these people who like slow games are against it because they like realism (and if the game is supposed to be realistic then BHing is bad of course, because it isnt real). In an unrealistic game it doesnt need to be realistic. Suddenly BHing IS allowed. Time for me to start quoting. Oh and any opinions of mine will have a large [O] infront of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> [O]BunnyHopping IS fun, it makes the game faster paced and more frenetic. It also adds a new level of skill into the game. More complicated tricks and concs are possible, more impressive caps and such which everyone has to admit are fun otherwise there wouldnt be concmaps dedicated to it.
That is your opinion, and alot of us do not share it at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Alot of the people you know who play DoD dont like it, because when you think of it you think of it in a realistic game and it ruins the fun. 2) The only bit that is my opinion in that whole sentance is the first 3 lines (though its shared by others). All the other bits are totally true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> play the game as it was intended, as WE enjoy it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also enjoy playing games as they were intended. So if I played DoD or CS I wouldnt bunnyhop. Did you know TFC has had numerous class balances to make the game fairer. The balancing means that if it werent for skills like BH and Concjumping we couldnt actually get the flag anymore. No matter how careful the attackers were, no matter how much they stuck together and covered each other (as you seem to be suggesting all games should be like) it would be impossible to cap the flag.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would love to see a navy seal jump like that in order to gain speed over his foes, or run along a wall to gain those extra cm/s. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats realism again, I wouldnt like to see that (no,[O] in rl I would cos it would be cool <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->). It doesnt matter what a navy seal (SAS are better) could do as thats rl and Im talking about games here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> enjoying to use them to get what they presume is "skill" so they can get more frags, get the flag faster, constantly advancing the score tablets. Cheats is perfect for mapbuilding, bug testing etc <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont say 'presume' until youve tried it. You still dont seem to believe me but it is difficult and many people try and fail to do it. Im only average at it. We dont do it for our own scores either, you are giving all BH'ers a llama mentality. In actual fact the vast (and I mean absolutely massive) majority of people in TFC that BH are clanners and they dont care about personal scores. Defenders get frags only because they are protecting our flag. Attackers get flags only to raise our teams score. Secondly, what you say about _cheats_ is right. But its still your misguided opinion (and I can use the word misguided without it being an insult as you still have an imperfect notion of what BHing is) that BHing is a cheat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> but when used against someone playing on pure experience and skill, owning this someone, tell me where the fun is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesnt work like that. For a start you dont automatically own someone. BHing is a skill, it doesnt make you invulnerable and it has its own weaknesses too. Someone with experience and skill will always beat someone who doesnt whether they BH or not. Not that it really matters as BHing is (again) a difficult thing that only experienced TFCers can do. BHing isnt a cheat that allows you to beat anyone except other BHers. Do you really think everyone in a match spends their whole time bouncing round? Of course not. In most circumstances its completely useless and trying to kill someone while you're BHing is alot more difficult that without. BHing impedes your aim, reduces your manouvrability and makes you easy to predict. Plus it takes concentration which you cant afford to use when DMing someone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> While realism is a good building "stone" for games <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is _your_ opinion. [O] I personally think realism is a completely daft building block for games as when I play a game I dont want to have to worry about falling from to far and having to limp around a map or anything silly like that. Each to their own I guess, all I can say is most films are unrealistic to and noone complains that James Bond or Rambo have done unrealistic things (not that they bounce around, but they fight whole armies with only a knife or use laser watches and stuff).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fun, to me isnt running at 500mph gunz blazing, it is with precision and teamplay securing your positions and accomplishing your mission with minimal loss. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is BHing unprecise? As I have already stated all of the best players do it because it takes skill. Trust me, when it was first discovered it some people complained that game was to fast and others loved it. We had massive discussions on forums about all of this but it was eventually decided (after weeks of debate) that as BHing took so much skill to do (it is skill, its very hard and takes lots of practice, you need to be extremely precise and accurate to do it well) and that it made the game more enjoyable it would be allowed in leagues.
In conclusion (notice no quotes), BHing in realistic games is bad because it defeats the object of the game. But BHing itself isnt a bad thing at all, instead it adds an extra dimension to gameplay and yet another skill to learn to become good at it. For some reason the only skills allowed in realistic games are Aiming, Shooting (I know shooting is a skill as you have to know which weapon to use, how best to use it etc) and Teamwork. All these skills are in unrealistic games to but you can also have concjumping,rocketjumping, BHing, wall strafing etc. Notice how all of these skills take no editing of the game whatsoever and can be done straight from a clean install on a clean system. I could do these things on anyones computers without having to type a single command. Notice again, how none of those skills defeat the purpose of an unrealistic game. Getting past the security laser on Shutdown without having to shut the laser down is a cheat because it defeats the purpose of the map, its not what the programmer wants to see. BHing on DoD is a cheat for that same reason. BHing on TFC is good because the programmers do it themselves (although they balanced it a bit as it was originally to powerful if combined with conc skimming, they also change the balance of weapons, the weapons arent cheats and neither is BHing) and is now part of the game. Quake is the same (bear in mind HL is built using a modified Q1 engine which is why you can do it in both games) and while the programmers didnt originally envisage BHing it is certainly allowed. Tribes they had skiing, something that was seriously debated and some considered it a cheat (which it would be if a mod was made for tribes that was realistic and it was used in that mod) but in Tribes2 they included it in the in-game tutorial.
People need to learn that just because BHing is bad on their mod, it doesnt make it bad in general. I understand that many of you havent tried it as its branded (quite rightly) a cheat in that particular game. But if you try it you will realise how much effort it takes. I suggest to all those that doubt to jump into a lan version of TFC (note that the low ping will make it easier) and try BHing themselves, you will see it takes alot of effort and practice to do it competently and alot of experience before it is useful.
PS. 2 new opinions and one quoted one by me, all the rest is pure fact. Just read the whole thing with an open mind (if you used a closed mind go back and read again) and you will see my points. I never ever argue with opinions and I pride myself on my arguing skills (or should that be Sk1llz while on a forum?).
PPS. Sorry silverfox, just couldnt resist, Im weak I know, I just cant help myself from defending my side of the argument. Thank you for trying anyway though I believe this whole thing can be resolved properly (otherwise not even I would bother).
PPPS. Rico, I dont think IRC was a flamewar, at least it wasnt when I had to leave. I never insulted anyone once while things got slightly heated the discussion was always relatively civil.
My opinion on BH and conc jumping, and everything except outside hacks and cheats is to let the players do what they want; whatever it is. What really pisses me off is when TFC players say that BHing isn't "###," but medics on defense is "###," and there's always players who have it the opposite...etc. Luckily, TFC has over a thousand servers so if you don't agree with one server's philosophy, you can change and BH somewhere else...whatever.
As it's been said before, this argument is kind of a waste of breath.
Everyone, disregard CMEast's last post due to the around 30 very easy to spot spelling errors. And how did you come up with frenetic anyways how could anyone so badly misspell frantic? This is only forgivable if English is your second language..... <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
I have a real sense, CM, that you play offence alot.
Tell me, honestly, what good bunnyhopping does for defense.
To catch up to other bunnyhoppers? No. That is like the 'well alot of people cheat, so why shouldn't I? It would put me at a even level'.
If someone cannot go one on one with me and cap the flag without bunnyhopping, I have a real problem with it.
What if there was an exploit (which bunnyhopping is) that let a player that is standing still shoot all of his ammo from his weapon at once? It would be nice because it would 'add a new level of skill to the game'. And it would be fun because without it, how would the flag ever *not* get capped?
I could shoot my railgun like a machinegun, taking down HWGs and Soldiers in seconds.
I could unleash a rain of rockets on my bunnyhopping opponents in the 4 seconds they are in my line of sight before they are out of a room.
Your whole post seems to be about why, since TF is unrealistic, then unrealistic bunnyhopping is A-OK.
Well aim-bots are unrealistic. They should be A-OK then. Wallhacks are unrealistic. They should be A-OK then. Dropping a lode of grenades in respawn and switching teams is unrealistic. It should be A-OK then. They all require work that is above and beyond the skills required to play the game.. and I bet people who do those things think it is just a real blast.
NEVER will I say that exploiting the game engine in such a way to get a HUGE speed advantage (don't say it is a small speed advantage.. I have seen bunnyhopping HWGs who could cross the 2fort bridge in all of 2-3 seconds) is anything but bad for the game.
Tick, your right, on the bridge its possible to cross that fast. You just have to bounce around for a second or two to get that speed up, then as soon as you hit the enemy fort you either need to be real good or you lose that speed and when in the ramp room its gone anyway (when you really need it). Finally what the hell is an HW doing on the bridge anyway? Scouts can gain speed a bit quicker but since the patch the speed increase still isnt enough to unbalance the game. Otherwise, as I said, everymatch would be at least 100 or so caps, we would end up with 6-7 defenders and 1-2 attackers (UK TFC is played 8vs8).
I do play offense alot, your right and defense dont need bunnyhopping, they can cope easily without it. I know because [HoL]s def (my clan) is great and we go up against BHers all the time. Besides which you dont get that many bunny hoppers in the bases themselves, its more for midfield.
Tick, firstly Id quite like that bug you just made up, someone who misses suddenly has no ammo and I just run past them. It would be a big disadvantage for them seeing as any defender can kill an attacker in a split second anyway.
4 seconds they are in your line of sight? I should hope i wouldnt be exposed to them that long whether I BH or not! You are either in and past them within a second or two, dead or incredibly lucky.
About the 'aimbots are unrealistic', firstly, they arent in that some people are that good shots. Secondly, an aimbot is something you download, its added to the program, its something you dont get on the HL CD or in any patch. Oh and you can be kicked for it from most servers... and its banned in all leagues...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> They all require work that is above and beyond the skills required to play the game.. and I bet people who do those things think it is just a real blast. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, Bunnyhopping isnt above and beyond the skills required to play the game as it is needed for a good game now. Also... technically all you need to do is learn to push the forward key, move a mouse and push fire as thats all that is 'required' to play the game. I know because I sometimes let my 8yrd old halfbrother play the game and his hands arent even large enough for him to reach the grenade keys.
So in your book concjumping and rocketjumping is a cheat? Hey, who needs to work out how to buy weapons when you have a pistol and a knife in CS... dont be daft please.
Oh and longtooth, even if I had made alot of errors in typing that would be no reason to disregard my post. Seeing as I dont think I made any errors (point them to me please) I think people who plan to argue with me on this should definitely read my post. BTW, thanks insane. Its nice to know that someone has a decent sized vocabulary out there.
(longtooth, are you American? Because Im English and some words that I spell maybe different... no, wrong, in the american language like colour.
Now until you CS'ers have researched into more unrealistic games like TFC and quake I suggest you step slowly away from the keyboard and accept what I say as someone who has at least a vague idea as to what they talk about...
In fact, I cant be bothered with this anymore, after stuff like 'ignore him, he cant spell' (pffft) I really dont wanna continue this discussion. I had at least believed that my arguments would be taken seriously and any replies would be cogent, logical and sensible arguements. SilverFox, you are of course right and I wish that I had been stronger earlier but I just cant seem to give up arguments until I know for sure the people Im arguing with are lost causes.
I, for one, am against bunny hopping.I just don't think it is right, because it is an exploit.You gain an advantage through problems in the code.I consider it like the bug in dod_avalanche, where the Axis can throw grenades to a certain spot ( I don't know where), and it kills just about everything on the Allied side, save the spawn area. I just don't think it's right. But that's me.
<!--QuoteBegin--Longtooth+Aug. 02 2002,05:20--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Longtooth @ Aug. 02 2002,05:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Everyone, disregard CMEast's last post due to the around 30 very easy to spot spelling errors. And how did you come up with frenetic anyways how could anyone so badly misspell frantic? This is only forgivable if English is your second language..... <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Main Entry: fre·net·ic Pronunciation: fri-'ne-tik Function: adjective : FRENZIED, FRANTIC - fre·net·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb - fre·net·i·cism /-'ne-t&-"si-z&m/ noun
I thought CMEast's arguments were well done [TFC isn't exactly aiming for realism, you can admit that]. Please respond to his arguments, not his ability to spell. 30 spelling errors in a post that long is forgivable, it's the 30 spelling errors in three sentences that give me a headache.
-Ryan!
"Envy is an insult to oneself." -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko
CMEast has some very good and valid points, and I concede that he is right (realism vs fun/unrealistic games), but... I am of the stance that if a mod wants bunny hopping in, then it should be coded in intsead of it existing already as a bug. I'm NOT saying take it out of TFC, RC, or any of the other zany mods out there, but I am saying no longer make it hardcoded, and instead have the mods that want it add it in.
BTW, conjumping and bunnyhopping IS a skill, and I suck at both of them
Ok, east, I love discussions, and I really look forward to this "I'm right, no IM right" thing =)
First.. you often mention that "its facts" and "this happens when I play".. and also you talk about alot of people, (also me, yes) like we have never played anything else than CS and never tried BHing.. well, I started out with TFC as many others did and still do, and I to have tried this "skill" called bunny hopping. Only, I put my strafe buttons on the scroll wheel and gosh darnett, it was ezier than I imagined and when I tried it in CS, just took a n00b cannon and never missed a single thing, but then I gave it up, no fun, no skill requiered etc.. you may argue against it, but BHing via small scripts and scroll wheel was amazingly ez in my case, but stopping was a little harder since it took a second or two in order to come to a complete halt, often making u miss your destination target, and ending up those 2 seconds away from the bomb needing defusion)
What is blue to you, might be red to me. We both base our "facts" on our own experiences, you with your clan and friends, me with my clan and friends.
In DOD and CS (these are examples, as I used them as exampels earlier to) they have the stamina, CS mostly just bcuz BHing would be prevented(that is what I've read and heard) = someone did not like it, prolly alot ppl didnt like it since CS team got complaints (or valve, I dunno) and therefor, they coded it to prevent such an action. Still, there are servers making BHing possible, just bcuz they like it,(people like you, now I dunno if u were forced to like, if u even like it, but u perform it, so therefor I will keep on saying you like it, might be wrong, but feel free to correct me, but no offense) but that amount is very small compared to the ones going with the stamina. And the CS community Is and has been VERY large, we both know that (on good and bad).
I belong to the people that have a little hard time for accepting new modes of play right away, especially when they fall into the category "exploited bugs" wich, BH Is to me (yes, I know you are of a different mind, but there is no need to point that out again and again).
When u quoted me here n there, u did not take the entire sentence, you only took pieces of it, and I would like to quote your quoted quote <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->..
While realism is a good building "stone" for games
Now that is _your_ opinion. [O] I personally think realism is a completely daft building block for games as when I play a game I dont want to have to worry about falling from to far and having to limp around a map or anything silly like that. Each to their own I guess, all I can say is most films are unrealistic to and noone complains that James Bond or Rambo have done unrealistic things (not that they bounce around, but they fight whole armies with only a knife or use laser watches and stuff). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what u quoted was a little text saying that realism is a good building stone (yes, IMO as i've stated my entire post to be) but u left out the other parts..
"While realism is a good building "stone" for games, it is hard to make such games fun without anything...slighty unrealistic. ".. so I will disregard what you said about that, since I already said that was the case. However, in there somewhere, you say that people never complain about bond and rambo.. well, how could you know, I often complain about that, and things as that the hero never dies, he always aims and hits with every shot, while highly trained terrorists often miss every bullet. A hero can take 14 fists and kicks to his face, not bleeding, while thugs (pardon the word) cannot take more than one (unless he is the boss). This comes from japanese movies (or so I've read and if you look at a lot of older japanese / chinese combat films, they fight just like that and they were made loooooooong before rambo and mr bond)
Also, I do not recall the exact words nor the place, but you said something like realism isnt good and then u hate falling down etc (maybe in that quote, ya, thats it) but bla bla, my point is this, CS was meant to be realistic, hence the devotion of many fans (and me). Now, here is where bunny hopping, the maps I spoke of earlier etc comes to ruin this "realistic" mod.
I very much likes realism, I like it in movies where the hero dont always survive (I like Saving private ryan and similair, cuz hanks aint supreme, he fights just like anyone else). To me, DOD is the most realistic mod out there, and that is almost the only thing I play, but I still enjoy sessions on AvP1 and 2 (man, talk about hopping enemies, and u can try your best, u will NEVER hit a jumping alien runner at full speed with a pulse rifle, maybe with luck, but other than that, no) and also No One Lives Forever is a fun game, realism is there as well, in some things, but the gadgets.. I mean.. a lipstick bomb?..
Starcraft, command and conquer ,HL and its mods, avp 1/2, mohaa.. all of these games contains both realistic and sci-fi elements, but dod for example, is more reality based with facts and year-related actual replicas of weapons, while starcraft is straight from the fantasy.
You cannot imagine my experiences, as I cannot imagine yours, but to keep an open mind is hard and one often must make points and stands, just like I do, and just like you do. However, we both know that we talk without flaming and pushing others down, we talk just because we want to.
I do not play TFC anymore, since I got tired of just things like BH and people never dying by my guns, just my nades and now I play mostly DOD and I hope that NS will offer a new dimension of teamplay, hence my interest in the mod. But from times, I return to avp and sometimes CS, when I want that little more DM-like gameplay and faster, furious games (ok, calling CS fast-paced is somewhat of an joke) but realism always draws me back, a car beeing too small for someone ,but still beeing used in a game pisses me off, Im somewhat of an detailfreak, and seeing a character bunny hopp past me, using programmed things to evade bullets (remember, the engine removes 10 or 15% of hit-capabilities to a player crouching and jumping , wich are facts I've read and heard from what appeared to be valve and CS team texts and employees) and therefor, bunny hopping BECOMES a cheat in my book, combining speed, the lesser ability of beeing hit and the odd-looking shape of a swat or hwg jumping like a bunny really NOT fun..
I do not mind people using them when playing with their friends or in servers allowing that, but I would ban without questioning, a player bunny hopping on my server. IMO (as most things in this text is) that is cheating.
This discussion will prolly always go on. But u said that today it is impossible to cap a flag without BH.. since maps are built upon that "policy" now, what does that depend on? well, my guess is that it is a player fancying this teqhnique and made a map based on it -or- that it is so common, a map would be overlooked if not having that feature.
Because in the end, it all comes down to having fun, and from what I've understood. you and I look -very- different at what is fun and that is good ,how else could we evovle as players and a comunity? =)
PS: if you feel offended by anything written in this post, please state so, it was not my intention to insult you or anyone else in any way, nor was it to post wrong facts, but making my voice heard is important to me.
Thanks for that post Dark Mantiz and I agree with much of what you said. I agree that we obviously have different definitions of what fun is as you like realism and I hate it, I believe we both still share the common ground of hating cheats even if we include some slightly different cheats in the lists. Youll be glad to know that you didnt insult me or anything.
The reason why I only quoted the part about realism being a good building block is because I didnt feel the next part was neccesary. It is incredibly difficult to create a totally realistic game yes, but if one is created in the spirit of realism then thats how it should be played in. This is why I totally agree that BHing is a cheat in DoD, CS etc.
We are totally different which is why you stopped playing TFC and I have deleted both CS and DoD from my hdd (and most of the other realistic mods that have come and gone too). As we are so different I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree about BHing in TFC and agree in realistic mods... I dont know what will happen if BHing is useful in NS as I wouldnt class it a realistic mod. I guess we should save that particular argument till we come to it. Neither of us are in position to judge until weve played it for awhile.
Just a couple of things, most leagues still play a couple of original valve maps which were created long before BHing existed in TFC. Also, the new maps arent created for BHing, they are the same style as always and can be just as difficult or easy to BH in, dont forget that defense make maps just as offy do and succesful maps are good for both sides. It is still almost impossible to cap as defense have got alot better. I lost my internet connection for almost 2 years and before that I had been rather good at TFC (and Im being modest <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->), now Im nowhere near as good, I get in alot less practice than I did but everyone is generally better. Things are done nowadays that would be impossible a couple of years before. Defense are really good now, especially with broadband becoming more commonplace and experience teaching us the optimum tactics.
Oh and finally, the reason why I pointed out my position so many times is because... well, my family are totally thick. I argue with them alot and because they are so stupid I have picked up the bad habbit of having to repeat myself, sorry. Besides, I was getting this vibe back that my arguements were being ignored (not from anyone in particular, I guess its the fault of the medium we are using).
haha, we gotta stop doing this or ppl will think we are in luh >_<. But its kewl to see SOMEONE understands me.. or not, anyhow I will look at NS with expactation and not think about what could go wrong.
There are so many things that can be awesome and prolly WILL be that way, and the thought of an BHing tiny.. well, u get the idea, its just as fun as
going up a ladder... <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Now Im not trying to change anyones opinions and they are allowed to like slower games of course, Im only trying to change their view on what BHing IS. You see, all these people who like slow games are against it because they like realism (and if the game is supposed to be realistic then BHing is bad of course, because it isnt real). In an unrealistic game it doesnt need to be realistic. Suddenly BHing IS allowed. Time for me to start quoting. Oh and any opinions of mine will have a large [O] infront of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->
[O]BunnyHopping IS fun, it makes the game faster paced and more frenetic. It also adds a new level of skill into the game. More complicated tricks and concs are possible, more impressive caps and such which everyone has to admit are fun otherwise there wouldnt be concmaps dedicated to it.
That is your opinion, and alot of us do not share it at all.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Alot of the people you know who play DoD dont like it, because when you think of it you think of it in a realistic game and it ruins the fun.
2) The only bit that is my opinion in that whole sentance is the first 3 lines (though its shared by others). All the other bits are totally true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->
play the game as it was intended, as WE enjoy it
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also enjoy playing games as they were intended. So if I played DoD or CS I wouldnt bunnyhop. Did you know TFC has had numerous class balances to make the game fairer. The balancing means that if it werent for skills like BH and Concjumping we couldnt actually get the flag anymore. No matter how careful the attackers were, no matter how much they stuck together and covered each other (as you seem to be suggesting all games should be like) it would be impossible to cap the flag.
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I would love to see a navy seal jump like that in order to gain speed over his foes, or run along a wall to gain those extra cm/s.
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Thats realism again, I wouldnt like to see that (no,[O] in rl I would cos it would be cool <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->). It doesnt matter what a navy seal (SAS are better) could do as thats rl and Im talking about games here.
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enjoying to use them to get what they presume is "skill" so they can get more frags, get the flag faster, constantly advancing the score tablets. Cheats is perfect for mapbuilding, bug testing etc
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Dont say 'presume' until youve tried it. You still dont seem to believe me but it is difficult and many people try and fail to do it. Im only average at it. We dont do it for our own scores either, you are giving all BH'ers a llama mentality. In actual fact the vast (and I mean absolutely massive) majority of people in TFC that BH are clanners and they dont care about personal scores. Defenders get frags only because they are protecting our flag. Attackers get flags only to raise our teams score.
Secondly, what you say about _cheats_ is right. But its still your misguided opinion (and I can use the word misguided without it being an insult as you still have an imperfect notion of what BHing is) that BHing is a cheat.
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but when used against someone playing on pure experience and skill, owning this someone, tell me where the fun is?
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It doesnt work like that. For a start you dont automatically own someone. BHing is a skill, it doesnt make you invulnerable and it has its own weaknesses too. Someone with experience and skill will always beat someone who doesnt whether they BH or not. Not that it really matters as BHing is (again) a difficult thing that only experienced TFCers can do. BHing isnt a cheat that allows you to beat anyone except other BHers. Do you really think everyone in a match spends their whole time bouncing round? Of course not. In most circumstances its completely useless and trying to kill someone while you're BHing is alot more difficult that without. BHing impedes your aim, reduces your manouvrability and makes you easy to predict. Plus it takes concentration which you cant afford to use when DMing someone.
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While realism is a good building "stone" for games
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Now that is _your_ opinion. [O] I personally think realism is a completely daft building block for games as when I play a game I dont want to have to worry about falling from to far and having to limp around a map or anything silly like that. Each to their own I guess, all I can say is most films are unrealistic to and noone complains that James Bond or Rambo have done unrealistic things (not that they bounce around, but they fight whole armies with only a knife or use laser watches and stuff).
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Fun, to me isnt running at 500mph gunz blazing, it is with precision and teamplay securing your positions and accomplishing your mission with minimal loss.
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Why is BHing unprecise? As I have already stated all of the best players do it because it takes skill. Trust me, when it was first discovered it some people complained that game was to fast and others loved it. We had massive discussions on forums about all of this but it was eventually decided (after weeks of debate) that as BHing took so much skill to do (it is skill, its very hard and takes lots of practice, you need to be extremely precise and accurate to do it well) and that it made the game more enjoyable it would be allowed in leagues.
In conclusion (notice no quotes), BHing in realistic games is bad because it defeats the object of the game. But BHing itself isnt a bad thing at all, instead it adds an extra dimension to gameplay and yet another skill to learn to become good at it. For some reason the only skills allowed in realistic games are Aiming, Shooting (I know shooting is a skill as you have to know which weapon to use, how best to use it etc) and Teamwork. All these skills are in unrealistic games to but you can also have concjumping,rocketjumping, BHing, wall strafing etc. Notice how all of these skills take no editing of the game whatsoever and can be done straight from a clean install on a clean system. I could do these things on anyones computers without having to type a single command. Notice again, how none of those skills defeat the purpose of an unrealistic game. Getting past the security laser on Shutdown without having to shut the laser down is a cheat because it defeats the purpose of the map, its not what the programmer wants to see. BHing on DoD is a cheat for that same reason. BHing on TFC is good because the programmers do it themselves (although they balanced it a bit as it was originally to powerful if combined with conc skimming, they also change the balance of weapons, the weapons arent cheats and neither is BHing) and is now part of the game.
Quake is the same (bear in mind HL is built using a modified Q1 engine which is why you can do it in both games) and while the programmers didnt originally envisage BHing it is certainly allowed. Tribes they had skiing, something that was seriously debated and some considered it a cheat (which it would be if a mod was made for tribes that was realistic and it was used in that mod) but in Tribes2 they included it in the in-game tutorial.
People need to learn that just because BHing is bad on their mod, it doesnt make it bad in general. I understand that many of you havent tried it as its branded (quite rightly) a cheat in that particular game. But if you try it you will realise how much effort it takes. I suggest to all those that doubt to jump into a lan version of TFC (note that the low ping will make it easier) and try BHing themselves, you will see it takes alot of effort and practice to do it competently and alot of experience before it is useful.
PS. 2 new opinions and one quoted one by me, all the rest is pure fact. Just read the whole thing with an open mind (if you used a closed mind go back and read again) and you will see my points. I never ever argue with opinions and I pride myself on my arguing skills (or should that be Sk1llz while on a forum?).
PPS. Sorry silverfox, just couldnt resist, Im weak I know, I just cant help myself from defending my side of the argument. Thank you for trying anyway though I believe this whole thing can be resolved properly (otherwise not even I would bother).
PPPS. Rico, I dont think IRC was a flamewar, at least it wasnt when I had to leave. I never insulted anyone once while things got slightly heated the discussion was always relatively civil.
As it's been said before, this argument is kind of a waste of breath.
Tell me, honestly, what good bunnyhopping does for defense.
To catch up to other bunnyhoppers? No. That is like the 'well alot of people cheat, so why shouldn't I? It would put me at a even level'.
If someone cannot go one on one with me and cap the flag without bunnyhopping, I have a real problem with it.
What if there was an exploit (which bunnyhopping is) that let a player that is standing still shoot all of his ammo from his weapon at once? It would be nice because it would 'add a new level of skill to the game'. And it would be fun because without it, how would the flag ever *not* get capped?
I could shoot my railgun like a machinegun, taking down HWGs and Soldiers in seconds.
I could unleash a rain of rockets on my bunnyhopping opponents in the 4 seconds they are in my line of sight before they are out of a room.
Your whole post seems to be about why, since TF is unrealistic, then unrealistic bunnyhopping is A-OK.
Well aim-bots are unrealistic. They should be A-OK then. Wallhacks are unrealistic. They should be A-OK then.
Dropping a lode of grenades in respawn and switching teams is unrealistic. It should be A-OK then.
They all require work that is above and beyond the skills required to play the game.. and I bet people who do those things think it is just a real blast.
NEVER will I say that exploiting the game engine in such a way to get a HUGE speed advantage (don't say it is a small speed advantage.. I have seen bunnyhopping HWGs who could cross the 2fort bridge in all of 2-3 seconds) is anything but bad for the game.
I do play offense alot, your right and defense dont need bunnyhopping, they can cope easily without it. I know because [HoL]s def (my clan) is great and we go up against BHers all the time. Besides which you dont get that many bunny hoppers in the bases themselves, its more for midfield.
Tick, firstly Id quite like that bug you just made up, someone who misses suddenly has no ammo and I just run past them. It would be a big disadvantage for them seeing as any defender can kill an attacker in a split second anyway.
4 seconds they are in your line of sight? I should hope i wouldnt be exposed to them that long whether I BH or not! You are either in and past them within a second or two, dead or incredibly lucky.
About the 'aimbots are unrealistic', firstly, they arent in that some people are that good shots. Secondly, an aimbot is something you download, its added to the program, its something you dont get on the HL CD or in any patch. Oh and you can be kicked for it from most servers... and its banned in all leagues...
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They all require work that is above and beyond the skills required to play the game.. and I bet people who do those things think it is just a real blast.
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No, Bunnyhopping isnt above and beyond the skills required to play the game as it is needed for a good game now. Also... technically all you need to do is learn to push the forward key, move a mouse and push fire as thats all that is 'required' to play the game. I know because I sometimes let my 8yrd old halfbrother play the game and his hands arent even large enough for him to reach the grenade keys.
So in your book concjumping and rocketjumping is a cheat? Hey, who needs to work out how to buy weapons when you have a pistol and a knife in CS... dont be daft please.
Oh and longtooth, even if I had made alot of errors in typing that would be no reason to disregard my post. Seeing as I dont think I made any errors (point them to me please) I think people who plan to argue with me on this should definitely read my post.
BTW, thanks insane. Its nice to know that someone has a decent sized vocabulary out there.
(longtooth, are you American? Because Im English and some words that I spell maybe different... no, wrong, in the american language like colour.
Now until you CS'ers have researched into more unrealistic games like TFC and quake I suggest you step slowly away from the keyboard and accept what I say as someone who has at least a vague idea as to what they talk about...
In fact, I cant be bothered with this anymore, after stuff like 'ignore him, he cant spell' (pffft) I really dont wanna continue this discussion. I had at least believed that my arguments would be taken seriously and any replies would be cogent, logical and sensible arguements. SilverFox, you are of course right and I wish that I had been stronger earlier but I just cant seem to give up arguments until I know for sure the people Im arguing with are lost causes.
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<b><span style='color:lightblue'>*tosses a conc next to the topic, launching it into the Off-Topic forum*</span></b>
Main Entry: fre·net·ic
Pronunciation: fri-'ne-tik
Function: adjective
: FRENZIED, FRANTIC
- fre·net·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- fre·net·i·cism /-'ne-t&-"si-z&m/ noun
I thought CMEast's arguments were well done [TFC isn't exactly aiming for realism, you can admit that]. Please respond to his arguments, not his ability to spell. 30 spelling errors in a post that long is forgivable, it's the 30 spelling errors in three sentences that give me a headache.
-Ryan!
"Envy is an insult to oneself."
-- Yevgeny Yevtushenko
BTW, conjumping and bunnyhopping IS a skill, and I suck at both of them
First.. you often mention that "its facts" and "this happens when I play".. and also you talk about alot of people, (also me, yes) like we have never played anything else than CS and never tried BHing.. well, I started out with TFC as many others did and still do, and I to have tried this "skill" called bunny hopping. Only, I put my strafe buttons on the scroll wheel and gosh darnett, it was ezier than I imagined and when I tried it in CS, just took a n00b cannon and never missed a single thing, but then I gave it up, no fun, no skill requiered etc.. you may argue against it, but BHing via small scripts and scroll wheel was amazingly ez in my case, but stopping was a little harder since it took a second or two in order to come to a complete halt, often making u miss your destination target, and ending up those 2 seconds away from the bomb needing defusion)
What is blue to you, might be red to me. We both base our "facts" on our own experiences, you with your clan and friends, me with my clan and friends.
In DOD and CS (these are examples, as I used them as exampels earlier to) they have the stamina, CS mostly just bcuz BHing would be prevented(that is what I've read and heard) = someone did not like it, prolly alot ppl didnt like it since CS team got complaints (or valve, I dunno) and therefor, they coded it to prevent such an action. Still, there are servers making BHing possible, just bcuz they like it,(people like you, now I dunno if u were forced to like, if u even like it, but u perform it, so therefor I will keep on saying you like it, might be wrong, but feel free to correct me, but no offense) but that amount is very small compared to the ones going with the stamina. And the CS community Is and has been VERY large, we both know that (on good and bad).
I belong to the people that have a little hard time for accepting new modes of play right away, especially when they fall into the category "exploited bugs" wich, BH Is to me (yes, I know you are of a different mind, but there is no need to point that out again and again).
When u quoted me here n there, u did not take the entire sentence, you only took pieces of it, and I would like to quote your quoted quote <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->..
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While realism is a good building "stone" for games
Now that is _your_ opinion. [O] I personally think realism is a completely daft building block for games as when I play a game I dont want to have to worry about falling from to far and having to limp around a map or anything silly like that. Each to their own I guess, all I can say is most films are unrealistic to and noone complains that James Bond or Rambo have done unrealistic things (not that they bounce around, but they fight whole armies with only a knife or use laser watches and stuff).
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what u quoted was a little text saying that realism is a good building stone (yes, IMO as i've stated my entire post to be) but u left out the other parts..
"While realism is a good building "stone" for games, it is hard to make such games fun without anything...slighty unrealistic. "..
so I will disregard what you said about that, since I already said that was the case.
However, in there somewhere, you say that people never complain about bond and rambo.. well, how could you know, I often complain about that, and things as that the hero never dies, he always aims and hits with every shot, while highly trained terrorists often miss every bullet. A hero can take 14 fists and kicks to his face, not bleeding, while thugs (pardon the word) cannot take more than one (unless he is the boss). This comes from japanese movies (or so I've read and if you look at a lot of older japanese / chinese combat films, they fight just like that and they were made loooooooong before rambo and mr bond)
Also, I do not recall the exact words nor the place, but you said something like realism isnt good and then u hate falling down etc (maybe in that quote, ya, thats it) but bla bla, my point is this, CS was meant to be realistic, hence the devotion of many fans (and me). Now, here is where bunny hopping, the maps I spoke of earlier etc comes to ruin this "realistic" mod.
I very much likes realism, I like it in movies where the hero dont always survive (I like Saving private ryan and similair, cuz hanks aint supreme, he fights just like anyone else). To me, DOD is the most realistic mod out there, and that is almost the only thing I play, but I still enjoy sessions on AvP1 and 2 (man, talk about hopping enemies, and u can try your best, u will NEVER hit a jumping alien runner at full speed with a pulse rifle, maybe with luck, but other than that, no) and also No One Lives Forever is a fun game, realism is there as well, in some things, but the gadgets.. I mean.. a lipstick bomb?..
Starcraft, command and conquer ,HL and its mods, avp 1/2, mohaa.. all of these games contains both realistic and sci-fi elements, but dod for example, is more reality based with facts and year-related actual replicas of weapons, while starcraft is straight from the fantasy.
You cannot imagine my experiences, as I cannot imagine yours, but to keep an open mind is hard and one often must make points and stands, just like I do, and just like you do. However, we both know that we talk without flaming and pushing others down, we talk just because we want to.
I do not play TFC anymore, since I got tired of just things like BH and people never dying by my guns, just my nades and now I play mostly DOD and I hope that NS will offer a new dimension of teamplay, hence my interest in the mod. But from times, I return to avp and sometimes CS, when I want that little more DM-like gameplay and faster, furious games (ok, calling CS fast-paced is somewhat of an joke) but realism always draws me back, a car beeing too small for someone ,but still beeing used in a game pisses me off, Im somewhat of an detailfreak, and seeing a character bunny hopp past me, using programmed things to evade bullets (remember, the engine removes 10 or 15% of hit-capabilities to a player crouching and jumping , wich are facts I've read and heard from what appeared to be valve and CS team texts and employees) and therefor, bunny hopping BECOMES a cheat in my book, combining speed, the lesser ability of beeing hit and the odd-looking shape of a swat or hwg jumping like a bunny really NOT fun..
I do not mind people using them when playing with their friends or in servers allowing that, but I would ban without questioning, a player bunny hopping on my server. IMO (as most things in this text is) that is cheating.
This discussion will prolly always go on. But u said that today it is impossible to cap a flag without BH.. since maps are built upon that "policy" now, what does that depend on? well, my guess is that it is a player fancying this teqhnique and made a map based on it -or- that it is so common, a map would be overlooked if not having that feature.
Because in the end, it all comes down to having fun, and from what I've understood. you and I look -very- different at what is fun and that is good ,how else could we evovle as players and a comunity? =)
PS: if you feel offended by anything written in this post, please state so, it was not my intention to insult you or anyone else in any way, nor was it to post wrong facts, but making my voice heard is important to me.
Peace
Youll be glad to know that you didnt insult me or anything.
The reason why I only quoted the part about realism being a good building block is because I didnt feel the next part was neccesary. It is incredibly difficult to create a totally realistic game yes, but if one is created in the spirit of realism then thats how it should be played in. This is why I totally agree that BHing is a cheat in DoD, CS etc.
We are totally different which is why you stopped playing TFC and I have deleted both CS and DoD from my hdd (and most of the other realistic mods that have come and gone too). As we are so different I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree about BHing in TFC and agree in realistic mods... I dont know what will happen if BHing is useful in NS as I wouldnt class it a realistic mod. I guess we should save that particular argument till we come to it. Neither of us are in position to judge until weve played it for awhile.
Just a couple of things, most leagues still play a couple of original valve maps which were created long before BHing existed in TFC. Also, the new maps arent created for BHing, they are the same style as always and can be just as difficult or easy to BH in, dont forget that defense make maps just as offy do and succesful maps are good for both sides. It is still almost impossible to cap as defense have got alot better. I lost my internet connection for almost 2 years and before that I had been rather good at TFC (and Im being modest <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->), now Im nowhere near as good, I get in alot less practice than I did but everyone is generally better. Things are done nowadays that would be impossible a couple of years before. Defense are really good now, especially with broadband becoming more commonplace and experience teaching us the optimum tactics.
Oh and finally, the reason why I pointed out my position so many times is because... well, my family are totally thick. I argue with them alot and because they are so stupid I have picked up the bad habbit of having to repeat myself, sorry. Besides, I was getting this vibe back that my arguements were being ignored (not from anyone in particular, I guess its the fault of the medium we are using).
Peace forever.
There are so many things that can be awesome and prolly WILL be that way, and the thought of an BHing tiny.. well, u get the idea, its just as fun as
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going up a ladder... <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
Peace