<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Oct 5 2003, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Oct 5 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WolfWings, status report? Any estimate of around what time to expect a compile to look at? I might be going out tonight so I'm curious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nup... no ETA yet. Go ahead and go out, it should be waiting when you get back. All it needs is for you to 'approve' the final package being sent ahead to Flayra. :-)
Glad to see that this map is finally on it's way to being brought back into ns. It was one of my most and least favourite ns maps. The vent system I found was a nightmare to navigate :o.
GG wolfwings/darkati/lazer/anyone else. Can't wait to see the finished product ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Oct 5 2003, 02:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Oct 5 2003, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Glad to see that this map is finally on it's way to being brought back into ns. It was one of my most and least favourite ns maps. The vent system I found was a nightmare to navigate :o.
GG wolfwings/darkati/lazer/anyone else. Can't wait to see the finished product ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You'll probably have an orgasm over the new map... I hope. Re-built vent system, very streamlined, but the same overall layout. Just no more annoying places you can't get through quickly, though it IS also a tad more marine-friendly also, since there's fewer random obstacles currently.
It's the only 'experimental' section in this new map, though also the one I think will make most people the happiest as the vents were THE single biggest problem with Nancy.
Hologram, the original name for no-name was Mother. The idea was you would have Mother (probably meaning something along the lines of "Mother Computer") and the interface for Mother, Mother interface. Just start calling mother interface interface and non-name Mother. Can't be too hard. I have yet to see anyone call Central processing in Caged Freight access (which was the room that took up the central area in 1.x)
I've made a no-vents compile as well, for creation of a duo-tone minimap that has the vents marked off seperately to help avoid confusion. Pure green by themselves, or a half seethrough greenish-cyan when they go over existing passages. So still very 'bright coloured' on the minimap, but hopefully more visible.
Just so everyone knows, currently the map compile works as follows:
Start compile of 'base map' with most cruft removed, very quick map since lighting doesn't matter, but is left enabled since my computer drops to 10fps in an unlit map, even with full HLVis.
<ul> <li>Load ns_nancy2.map Base file <li>Import VentsBig.map This file contains the vents file enlarged by 8 units <li>CSG Subtract, A.K.A. Carve for most of you. This isn't as big a deal as you guys may think. Radiant is very effecient with carving, and the brushwork in question is only 'carving out' a dozen square holes in walls for the vents. <li>Import VentsSmall.map Second phase, the 'walkable width' vents are in here. <li>CSG Subtract again... This lops up the previous vent structure into neat, walkable passageways, without really impacting the brushcount that much. It roughly triples the brushcount of the 'solid vent brushwork' from VentsLarger. That's pretty damn good. <li>Delete the VentsSmall.map brushwork <li>Import CentralFan.map This is a structure I made seperately, as it's properly part of the vents, and didn't see a reason to merge it into the core map since it's unconnected until the vents are linked in, and I want it to show up as a 'vent' in the final minimap. <li>Import Locations.map Again, seperate file for editability. All the locations for the entire map, seperated out. <li>Save as ns_nancy3.map </ul>
Now how does all that make for a duo-tone minimap? That's the fun part. :-)
<ul> <li>First, create two minimaps, one for ns_nancy2, and one for ns_nancy3. <li>Export both minimaps to a bitmap. (Identical steps for small and large minimap sprites. <li>Load minimap '3' into an image editor, masking off Red to transparent. Move blue channel to green channel. <li>Load minimap '2' into an image editor, marking off Red to transparent.[/*] <li>Copy '3' to a seperate layer UNDER '2' <li>Set '2' to 'Additive' and flatten the layer-stack. <li>Add a bright-red background layer. <li>Flatten the image down again. <li>Re-import the image into the minimap sprites for ns_nancy3, as the finalized, duo-tone minimap. </ul>
Sounds complicated, but it's surprisingly quick, and for a map with as many vents as Nancy, VERY worth it.
I'm compiling ns_nancy3.map right now, in fact. First stage of HLRad in progress for the full-quality compile. I figure a half-hour to finish.
So all of nancy's vents will be the result of using the carve tool to hollow out the inside of large blocks?
I know the carve tool is extremely useful in some situations, however in this one I'd really recommend simply selecting the hand-crafted vents, and then simply copying and pasting them into the main map file...
Carving isn't recommended but acceptable for creating the vent holes in the walls, but I can't disagree more with the idea of creating passageways that players are meant to travel through with complex cornering to be done by carving...
Or is all of this just for the minimap? Will the final build contain hand crafted vents?
Alright I'm back. I'm glad to hear the news of the compiles in progress. I'll be around for another hour or so before I go to bed so I'll probably be around for testing...
<!--QuoteBegin--Revenge+Oct 5 2003, 07:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Oct 5 2003, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hope i misunderstood you...
So all of nancy's vents will be the result of using the carve tool to hollow out the inside of large blocks? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I <b><i>knew</i></b> I'd get SOMEONE that would preach the 'Carving is bad, don't touch it, no, not even for that, or that' mantra. =^.^=
Yes, carving is being used for the final-compile-quality vents.
No, I can't hand-built better geometry.
Why? Because I hand-built the brushwork used for the CSG Subtract operations specifically for this purpose, knowing full-well how the CSG Subtract primitive works in GtkRadiant, and pre-building the brushwork to exploit this knowledge well, and reduce the final brush-count as much as possible.
The second 'carve' operation, which I'll call carving only to reduce typing since this is NOT a WorldCraft 'carve' operation, just over triples the brushcount of the original vent 'rough cut' geometry. That's an average of just over 3 brushes to handle 4-sided ventwork, pretty damn tight if you ask me. Especially considering it's all 'flat textured' so all the texturing aligns and can be merged by the compile tools and Half-Life.
All the tutorials out there say 'Don't do this, never do that' but guess what? Those tutorials are aimed for the masses. If you're highly technical, to the point of reading and understanding the source code of the compile tools, and the engine source code for related products (like the Q1 or Q2 source code I've made modified versions of for various games, like a CustomTF-specific QuakeWorld client that rendered all the CustomTF effects in custom ways) many of the tutorials turn out to have hidden truths, and times they the prohibitions don't apply.
Carving the vents for Nancy is one of those times, considering all the brush geometry is flat, rectangular, and none of it overlaps at all, so there's no 'tiny fragment' brushes generated by it, the bane of all 'carving' operations. :-)
If anyone really thinks my vent geometry isn't pretty good, I can post an unedited .map file of a small segment of the ventwork, one of the most complicated intersections in the vents, in fact.
And as a final side-note... NO, I'm not using 'huge blocks' to carve the vents out of. The vents are too tightly-aligned to the level geometry to do that. The brushwork I'm carving the vents out of is only 8 units larger than the vent passages themselves. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Oct 5 2003, 07:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Oct 5 2003, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alright I'm back. I'm glad to hear the news of the compiles in progress. I'll be around for another hour or so before I go to bed so I'll probably be around for testing... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erf... the compile just jumped up to 2 hours remaining, Lazer... I can e-mail you the low-quality .BSP, no minimap or full-detail lighting, so you can see it. If you okay it, I'll e-mail the 'final' version to Flayra when it's done? Or should I just finish this compile, and punt you that version to see in the morning when you wake up?
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 5 2003, 07:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 5 2003, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's the only 'experimental' section in this new map, though also the one I think will make most people the happiest as the vents were THE single biggest problem with Nancy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh really? I think they are the best part.
Took forever to learn and once you do, very useful.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lightning Blue+Oct 5 2003, 08:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lightning Blue @ Oct 5 2003, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 5 2003, 07:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 5 2003, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's the only 'experimental' section in this new map, though also the one I think will make most people the happiest as the vents were THE single biggest problem with Nancy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh really? I think they are the best part.
Took forever to learn and once you do, very useful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Problem is... they're also the largest obstacle to learning how to play Nancy, especially for new players. That's what I've been focussing on, is making Nancy newb-friendly. To be blunt, you need newbs to make vets, as we were ALL newbs once, and if you let a newb actually PLAY, instead of fighting and trying to learn the map all at the same time, they'll stick around a lot longer. =^.^=
It's like having a 'secret' room behind a noticable solid-black-ceiling-area with an invincibility, quad damage, full health, and lots of ammo. Any 'reasonable' player will walk through that area, assuming there's nothing there even with a detailed examination, and march on through.
But someone that knows about that 'secret' will dominate that map, making rote memorization more important than skill. Much like bunny-hopping makes your ability to tap a DDR-like sequence out on a controller while moving about more important than your actual tactics in combat, as you suddenly can move much faster than anyone else. Yes, reflexes are important, but tactics, and adaptability, and position should play just as large, if not a larger role in a game, especially one like Natural Selection.
So anywhere I could, I've made the map easier to use, and earier to learn, to help foster tactics and actual gameplay, instead of 'Hunt For An Exit From The Maze' like the old Nancy would have happen occasionally. :-)
I have no reason to touch the map, only it's .rad file, so no worries there my friend. Also, I'll be up all night pretty much, so whenever the compile is done e-mail it to me OK?
cody@getoutnow.com
*Yes my real name is Cody, DarkATi is more interesting though, bleh.
And I've aborted the previous compile to make that super-quick compile for you, Lazer. It'll be done in about 10 minutes, I turned off the opaque-entity stuff, am just trying to Get It Done so you can see something before you crash. =^.^=
It always makes me sad when WWs avatar goes awry, it normally brings such joy to my life, the pic appears broken once more on my PC. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 5 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 5 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It always makes me sad when WWs avatar goes awry, it normally brings such joy to my life, the pic appears broken once more on my PC. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the NS forums would hurry up and suppor PNG files, AND support linking to 'gallery' scripts to house the images, my avatar and sig would never vanish. As it is, I'm using a CGI script that lies and says it's a JPEG to the NS forums to 'redirect' my avatar at the actual server holding it. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 6 2003, 12:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 6 2003, 12:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 5 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 5 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It always makes me sad when WWs avatar goes awry, it normally brings such joy to my life, the pic appears broken once more on my PC. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the NS forums would hurry up and suppor PNG files, AND support linking to 'gallery' scripts to house the images, my avatar and sig would never vanish. As it is, I'm using a CGI script that lies and says it's a JPEG to the NS forums to 'redirect' my avatar at the actual server holding it. :-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
WWs makes me feel stupid as I never understand what he says... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just kidding I got you... sorta... though why not just convert your PNGs to JPGs?
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 5 2003, 09:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 5 2003, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just kidding I got you... sorta... though why not just convert your PNGs to JPGs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Simple... I wouldn't be able to have an alpha-channel in the image then, so the 'gradient' in the background of my avatar would have to be manually made for this forum, and if they ever changed the colours at all, I'd have to rebuild my Avatar. As it is, I use the same Avatar on every forum I'm on, and it blends nicely into the background on them all. :-) BTW, expect a first draft of the map in your mailbox in about a half-hour, DarkATi.
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 6 2003, 01:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 6 2003, 01:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 5 2003, 09:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 5 2003, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just kidding I got you... sorta... though why not just convert your PNGs to JPGs? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Simple... I wouldn't be able to have an alpha-channel in the image then, so the 'gradient' in the background of my avatar would have to be manually made for this forum, and if they ever changed the colours at all, I'd have to rebuild my Avatar. As it is, I use the same Avatar on every forum I'm on, and it blends nicely into the background on them all. :-) BTW, expect a first draft of the map in your mailbox in about a half-hour, DarkATi. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh I get it now.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkATi+Oct 5 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Oct 5 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh I get it now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hopefully you got the map too, since I sent it off for your tweaking enjoyment? =^.^=
Just out of curiousity, and because I read this post a while back and just noticed there are now 58 pages to it... How far along is it? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Just noticed there are 28 pages. Must be seeing things... Kinda sleepy... Also noticed my signature is exceedingly ****. Probably going to change it.
Just out of curiousity, and because I read this post a while back and just noticed there are now 58 pages to it... How far along is it? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's effectively done. We're to the point of adjusting things that shouldn't affect it's suitability for 2.1 testing and possible inclusion, like tweaking lighting and minor brushwork adjustments to fit with any NS 2.1 changes.
Concerning the "carve (no not really carve) to create the vents method": If you ever decide to give QuArK a go, take a look at the wallmaker plugin. It essentially does what your method did, but then with mittred corners and only need for the inner set of brushes, defining the actual shape of the vents. Although extensive use of the plugin is not encouraged, since on complex geometry it can create errors and a very high plane count, on simple structures like vents or the preliminary layout of a level it can save a lot of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--Wolv+Oct 6 2003, 12:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wolv @ Oct 6 2003, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Concerning the "carve (no not really carve) to create the vents method": If you ever decide to give QuArK a go, take a look at the wallmaker plugin. It essentially does what your method did, but then with mittred corners and only need for the inner set of brushes, defining the actual shape of the vents. Although extensive use of the plugin is not encouraged, since on complex geometry it can create errors and a very high plane count, on simple structures like vents or the preliminary layout of a level it can save a lot of time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Tried QuArK repeatedly... it, like Hammer, hides too much of the nitty-gritty details of the .map format from me for my liking. Then again... this from someone that's made maps in NotePad before. =^.^=
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 6 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 6 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I <b><i>knew</i></b> I'd get SOMEONE that would preach the 'Carving is bad, don't touch it, no, not even for that, or that' mantra. =^.^= <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for clearly not having read my post. I certainly don't appreciate the stereotype I've been lumped into either as it's completely innaccurate. I attempted to remain as civilised an respectful as I could, and I can only ask to be given the same amount of respect when people reply to me.
My point was that I did not feel carving was suitable for creating large sections of maps that players had to pass through. I never said anything even remotely similar what is in the quote above.
I have successfuly used Hammer's carving tool with good results when creating level geometrey designed as scenery. Nice simple things like straight holes in various things. Nancy has not only basic corners but t-junctions too. Even if this is a 4-side vent of a uniform size, there is still plenty of complicated stuff to do in those vents.
My concerns were that nancy's vents were quite extensive and that ANY automated process for creating them could very easily leave errors un-noticed. Neither the mapper nor the playtester would end up checking every nook and cranny unless it was a concious effort, and even then it'd be easy to miss some sections by pure accident.
<!--QuoteBegin--Revenge+Oct 6 2003, 03:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenge @ Oct 6 2003, 03:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Oct 6 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Oct 6 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I <b><i>knew</i></b> I'd get SOMEONE that would preach the 'Carving is bad, don't touch it, no, not even for that, or that' mantra. =^.^= <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for clearly not having read my post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My appologies. The initial tone was meant to be humourous, but you're right, it became vicious by the end, if not merely by the middle. =-.-=
I've build the two sets of brushes for carving specifically to make them result in clean brush geometry for the vents, and error-free geometry as well. I'm only using the 'carving' approach so I don't have the vents cluttering up the central view while I work on other areas, as it allows me to focus on the rest of the map easier, while still being able to compile a 'vent-free' version of Nancy for minimap purposes.
Comments
Nup... no ETA yet. Go ahead and go out, it should be waiting when you get back. All it needs is for you to 'approve' the final package being sent ahead to Flayra. :-)
Do you have it?
GG wolfwings/darkati/lazer/anyone else. Can't wait to see the finished product ^^
GG wolfwings/darkati/lazer/anyone else. Can't wait to see the finished product ^^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'll probably have an orgasm over the new map... I hope. Re-built vent system, very streamlined, but the same overall layout. Just no more annoying places you can't get through quickly, though it IS also a tad more marine-friendly also, since there's fewer random obstacles currently.
It's the only 'experimental' section in this new map, though also the one I think will make most people the happiest as the vents were THE single biggest problem with Nancy.
Mother is also used in mother interface aswell.
Maybe we could call it "Mother (No-name)" or something because to everyone that played 1.04 it will always be no-name.
Anyways...
Very nice job guys great work. I hope the vent layout is basically the same, I can't imagine trying to learn them again!
GJ hope Flay likes it
Just start calling mother interface interface and non-name Mother.
Can't be too hard. I have yet to see anyone call Central processing in Caged Freight access (which was the room that took up the central area in 1.x)
I've made a no-vents compile as well, for creation of a duo-tone minimap that has the vents marked off seperately to help avoid confusion. Pure green by themselves, or a half seethrough greenish-cyan when they go over existing passages. So still very 'bright coloured' on the minimap, but hopefully more visible.
Just so everyone knows, currently the map compile works as follows:
Start compile of 'base map' with most cruft removed, very quick map since lighting doesn't matter, but is left enabled since my computer drops to 10fps in an unlit map, even with full HLVis.
<ul>
<li>Load ns_nancy2.map
Base file
<li>Import VentsBig.map
This file contains the vents file enlarged by 8 units
<li>CSG Subtract, A.K.A. Carve for most of you.
This isn't as big a deal as you guys may think. Radiant is very effecient with carving, and the brushwork in question is only 'carving out' a dozen square holes in walls for the vents.
<li>Import VentsSmall.map
Second phase, the 'walkable width' vents are in here.
<li>CSG Subtract again...
This lops up the previous vent structure into neat, walkable passageways, without really impacting the brushcount that much. It roughly triples the brushcount of the 'solid vent brushwork' from VentsLarger. That's pretty damn good.
<li>Delete the VentsSmall.map brushwork
<li>Import CentralFan.map
This is a structure I made seperately, as it's properly part of the vents, and didn't see a reason to merge it into the core map since it's unconnected until the vents are linked in, and I want it to show up as a 'vent' in the final minimap.
<li>Import Locations.map
Again, seperate file for editability. All the locations for the entire map, seperated out.
<li>Save as ns_nancy3.map
</ul>
Now how does all that make for a duo-tone minimap? That's the fun part. :-)
<ul>
<li>First, create two minimaps, one for ns_nancy2, and one for ns_nancy3.
<li>Export both minimaps to a bitmap. (Identical steps for small and large minimap sprites.
<li>Load minimap '3' into an image editor, masking off Red to transparent.
Move blue channel to green channel.
<li>Load minimap '2' into an image editor, marking off Red to transparent.[/*]
<li>Copy '3' to a seperate layer UNDER '2'
<li>Set '2' to 'Additive' and flatten the layer-stack.
<li>Add a bright-red background layer.
<li>Flatten the image down again.
<li>Re-import the image into the minimap sprites for ns_nancy3, as the finalized, duo-tone minimap.
</ul>
Sounds complicated, but it's surprisingly quick, and for a map with as many vents as Nancy, VERY worth it.
I'm compiling ns_nancy3.map right now, in fact. First stage of HLRad in progress for the full-quality compile. I figure a half-hour to finish.
So all of nancy's vents will be the result of using the carve tool to hollow out the inside of large blocks?
I know the carve tool is extremely useful in some situations, however in this one I'd really recommend simply selecting the hand-crafted vents, and then simply copying and pasting them into the main map file...
Carving isn't recommended but acceptable for creating the vent holes in the walls, but I can't disagree more with the idea of creating passageways that players are meant to travel through with complex cornering to be done by carving...
Or is all of this just for the minimap? Will the final build contain hand crafted vents?
So all of nancy's vents will be the result of using the carve tool to hollow out the inside of large blocks? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <b><i>knew</i></b> I'd get SOMEONE that would preach the 'Carving is bad, don't touch it, no, not even for that, or that' mantra. =^.^=
Yes, carving is being used for the final-compile-quality vents.
No, I can't hand-built better geometry.
Why? Because I hand-built the brushwork used for the CSG Subtract operations specifically for this purpose, knowing full-well how the CSG Subtract primitive works in GtkRadiant, and pre-building the brushwork to exploit this knowledge well, and reduce the final brush-count as much as possible.
The second 'carve' operation, which I'll call carving only to reduce typing since this is NOT a WorldCraft 'carve' operation, just over triples the brushcount of the original vent 'rough cut' geometry. That's an average of just over 3 brushes to handle 4-sided ventwork, pretty damn tight if you ask me. Especially considering it's all 'flat textured' so all the texturing aligns and can be merged by the compile tools and Half-Life.
All the tutorials out there say 'Don't do this, never do that' but guess what? Those tutorials are aimed for the masses. If you're highly technical, to the point of reading and understanding the source code of the compile tools, and the engine source code for related products (like the Q1 or Q2 source code I've made modified versions of for various games, like a CustomTF-specific QuakeWorld client that rendered all the CustomTF effects in custom ways) many of the tutorials turn out to have hidden truths, and times they the prohibitions don't apply.
Carving the vents for Nancy is one of those times, considering all the brush geometry is flat, rectangular, and none of it overlaps at all, so there's no 'tiny fragment' brushes generated by it, the bane of all 'carving' operations. :-)
If anyone really thinks my vent geometry isn't pretty good, I can post an unedited .map file of a small segment of the ventwork, one of the most complicated intersections in the vents, in fact.
And as a final side-note... NO, I'm not using 'huge blocks' to carve the vents out of. The vents are too tightly-aligned to the level geometry to do that. The brushwork I'm carving the vents out of is only 8 units larger than the vent passages themselves. :-)
Erf... the compile just jumped up to 2 hours remaining, Lazer... I can e-mail you the low-quality .BSP, no minimap or full-detail lighting, so you can see it. If you okay it, I'll e-mail the 'final' version to Flayra when it's done? Or should I just finish this compile, and punt you that version to see in the morning when you wake up?
Oh really? I think they are the best part.
Took forever to learn and once you do, very useful.
Oh really? I think they are the best part.
Took forever to learn and once you do, very useful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is... they're also the largest obstacle to learning how to play Nancy, especially for new players. That's what I've been focussing on, is making Nancy newb-friendly. To be blunt, you need newbs to make vets, as we were ALL newbs once, and if you let a newb actually PLAY, instead of fighting and trying to learn the map all at the same time, they'll stick around a lot longer. =^.^=
It's like having a 'secret' room behind a noticable solid-black-ceiling-area with an invincibility, quad damage, full health, and lots of ammo. Any 'reasonable' player will walk through that area, assuming there's nothing there even with a detailed examination, and march on through.
But someone that knows about that 'secret' will dominate that map, making rote memorization more important than skill. Much like bunny-hopping makes your ability to tap a DDR-like sequence out on a controller while moving about more important than your actual tactics in combat, as you suddenly can move much faster than anyone else. Yes, reflexes are important, but tactics, and adaptability, and position should play just as large, if not a larger role in a game, especially one like Natural Selection.
So anywhere I could, I've made the map easier to use, and earier to learn, to help foster tactics and actual gameplay, instead of 'Hunt For An Exit From The Maze' like the old Nancy would have happen occasionally. :-)
I have no reason to touch the map, only it's .rad file, so no worries there my friend. Also, I'll be up all night pretty much, so whenever the compile is done e-mail it to me OK?
cody@getoutnow.com
*Yes my real name is Cody, DarkATi is more interesting though, bleh.
~ DarkATi
dafshin@comcast.net
EDIT: just saw the above post... I'll wait... Will fight sleep for a few more minutes... :]
~ DarkATi
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the NS forums would hurry up and suppor PNG files, AND support linking to 'gallery' scripts to house the images, my avatar and sig would never vanish. As it is, I'm using a CGI script that lies and says it's a JPEG to the NS forums to 'redirect' my avatar at the actual server holding it. :-)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the NS forums would hurry up and suppor PNG files, AND support linking to 'gallery' scripts to house the images, my avatar and sig would never vanish. As it is, I'm using a CGI script that lies and says it's a JPEG to the NS forums to 'redirect' my avatar at the actual server holding it. :-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
WWs makes me feel stupid as I never understand what he says... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just kidding I got you... sorta... though why not just convert your PNGs to JPGs?
~ DarkATi
Simple... I wouldn't be able to have an alpha-channel in the image then, so the 'gradient' in the background of my avatar would have to be manually made for this forum, and if they ever changed the colours at all, I'd have to rebuild my Avatar. As it is, I use the same Avatar on every forum I'm on, and it blends nicely into the background on them all. :-) BTW, expect a first draft of the map in your mailbox in about a half-hour, DarkATi.
Simple... I wouldn't be able to have an alpha-channel in the image then, so the 'gradient' in the background of my avatar would have to be manually made for this forum, and if they ever changed the colours at all, I'd have to rebuild my Avatar. As it is, I use the same Avatar on every forum I'm on, and it blends nicely into the background on them all. :-) BTW, expect a first draft of the map in your mailbox in about a half-hour, DarkATi. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I get it now.
~ DarkATi
Hopefully you got the map too, since I sent it off for your tweaking enjoyment? =^.^=
Just out of curiousity, and because I read this post a while back and just noticed there are now 58 pages to it... How far along is it? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Just noticed there are 28 pages. Must be seeing things... Kinda sleepy... Also noticed my signature is exceedingly ****. Probably going to change it.
Just out of curiousity, and because I read this post a while back and just noticed there are now 58 pages to it... How far along is it? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's effectively done. We're to the point of adjusting things that shouldn't affect it's suitability for 2.1 testing and possible inclusion, like tweaking lighting and minor brushwork adjustments to fit with any NS 2.1 changes.
It essentially does what your method did, but then with mittred corners and only need for the inner set of brushes, defining the actual shape of the vents.
Although extensive use of the plugin is not encouraged, since on complex geometry it can create errors and a very high plane count, on simple structures like vents or the preliminary layout of a level it can save a lot of time.
It essentially does what your method did, but then with mittred corners and only need for the inner set of brushes, defining the actual shape of the vents.
Although extensive use of the plugin is not encouraged, since on complex geometry it can create errors and a very high plane count, on simple structures like vents or the preliminary layout of a level it can save a lot of time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tried QuArK repeatedly... it, like Hammer, hides too much of the nitty-gritty details of the .map format from me for my liking. Then again... this from someone that's made maps in NotePad before. =^.^=
Thank you for clearly not having read my post. I certainly don't appreciate the stereotype I've been lumped into either as it's completely innaccurate. I attempted to remain as civilised an respectful as I could, and I can only ask to be given the same amount of respect when people reply to me.
My point was that I did not feel carving was suitable for creating large sections of maps that players had to pass through. I never said anything even remotely similar what is in the quote above.
I have successfuly used Hammer's carving tool with good results when creating level geometrey designed as scenery. Nice simple things like straight holes in various things. Nancy has not only basic corners but t-junctions too. Even if this is a 4-side vent of a uniform size, there is still plenty of complicated stuff to do in those vents.
My concerns were that nancy's vents were quite extensive and that ANY automated process for creating them could very easily leave errors un-noticed. Neither the mapper nor the playtester would end up checking every nook and cranny unless it was a concious effort, and even then it'd be easy to miss some sections by pure accident.
Thank you for clearly not having read my post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My appologies. The initial tone was meant to be humourous, but you're right, it became vicious by the end, if not merely by the middle. =-.-=
I've build the two sets of brushes for carving specifically to make them result in clean brush geometry for the vents, and error-free geometry as well. I'm only using the 'carving' approach so I don't have the vents cluttering up the central view while I work on other areas, as it allows me to focus on the rest of the map easier, while still being able to compile a 'vent-free' version of Nancy for minimap purposes.