<!--QuoteBegin--mR.Waffles+Aug 1 2003, 11:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mR.Waffles @ Aug 1 2003, 11:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Zephor+Aug 2 2003, 04:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Aug 2 2003, 04:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--mR.Waffles+Aug 1 2003, 11:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mR.Waffles @ Aug 1 2003, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Any forum with evaluation on a game that has been out for a day needs to be instantly locked. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're addressing a issue that needs to be fixed. As soon as the public figures this out, every game will take approximately 2 minutes to win(for marines). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My point still remains the same. I highly doubt something this obvious was not discovered during play testing. A solution must be hiding. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is. The Shotty was meant to be a all purpose weapon to combat fades and onos. If you lower the power of the shotty you will have the onos/fade as a game ending thing. If you keep it you have a super powerful marine rush. I'm not sure how they will fix this but this....
The fade, quite rightly, is a hit-and-run fighter. It has got just the right amount of HP to stand against 1-2 vanilla marines but will die against a bigger bunch of enemies. However, the primary difference between a fade and a skulk is that the fade does not return to the spawn queue after every 30 seconds or so. Metabolize is a great 2-hive ability that allows the fade to harras vanilla marines to no end. In a game of Caged, i managed to keep vanilla marines with upgrades cooped up in base because of the fade's ability to deal some hefty damage and get away with it.
Against HA, the fade is no match. Which is my main quirk with 2.0- the HAs are so uber that it takes nothing short of 3 2-hive oni with constant support from lesser lifeforms to take down a train of 4-5 HAs with HMGs, GLs, shottys and welders (and medspam). The fade, taking insnae damage, doesn't manage to surrvive past the 5-second mark if it attempts to do a hit and run on the HA train. And coupled with the fact that the oni HAVE to take redem to survive (otherwise the 100res investment goes to hell pretty fast), it is only in rare cases that the aliens manage to save their hives.
The fade is good against vanilla marines, but against a HA train, there is almost nothing the aliens can do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which is my main quirk with 2.0- the HAs are so uber that it takes nothing short of 3 2-hive oni with constant support from lesser lifeforms to take down a train of 4-5 HAs with HMGs, GLs, shottys and welders (and medspam). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that should be the way things are. Fades+Onos+other aliens=HA (With varied weapons). Fades alone or similar should get destroyed by HA trains.
Um, some people think/say the lerk is *just* support unit now... This is sooo untrue. You just have to adjust your play style now. You can't just swoop down, own a rine, fly up and spike the other three. Now you have to stay hidden and attack fast. For example, on lost (I believe) I was in one of those halls (the really wide ones).
So I hear some marines coming. Immediately I drop a few spores. I kinda made a circle around them and started spiking them, so they were forced to move. They had 2 options: a) stay there and get spiked or b) move and get spiked/spored. In panic, they chose the latter and were promptly gassed. This happened a few more times with me taking minimal damage and healing once in a while when my health dropped below 90. Then, 3 rines came, I did the same thing, retreated to some dcs and spiked them while I was getting healed and flying around dodging their fire.
Basically, if you know how to use the lerk, it can be stronger than a fade and even an onos that dies sooo easily to concentrated fire.
Despite the evident new-ness of NS 2.0, I have to admit that there seem to be a few inconsistencies. I won't go shouting from the hilltops of unfairness and imbalance, because the tactics of the game are going to evolve to counter things like the Fade's inability to stand up to a HA head-to-head (Even if it's 40 res vs 50, one must remember that researching and structures costs mucho resources, unlike the Fade which is available whenever you 50 res).
However to continue along a common thought in this thread, I have yet some more to say on shotguns.
After playing a series of five games on a server with 11 people, here were the results:
Two games were rushes by the aliens, who quickly popped the Marines before they had an IP up. Of course, this is nothing that can't be prevented by just dropping an IP the instant someone gets in the chair. (This was on Eclipse, for reference).
Two games were shotgun rushes that were arguably devestatingly effective. In one game, two skulks ran to the Marine base, found it empty and started chewing the lone CC and Res tower (I didn't see an armoury, but obviously one was there somewhere). However, by this time the hive had come under attack. The whole game took less than two or three minutes. The hive went down in about twenty seconds, despite the sensory tower that had been placed under it. It sadly affords no protection whatsoever. If I recall correctly, this scenario was repeated twice.
Now, the fifth game in this eclipse series (On a 20-30 minute map rotation, mind you) was not overly entertaining. It was a little turretfort game, where the aliens spent most of their time trying to kill the little phase-gate installations the Marines plopped down just outside a given hive. And this game would have been alright, save one thing. One rather irritating fact about the shotgun is that it will kill just about any early-game alien in one hit. This made attacking those turret farms all the more difficult, merely because there was always a guy or three sitting there waiting to pop you the instant you tried to make a run on it. (Tried a bilebomb Gorge later on, and was prompty popped in one shot after getting about ~3 shots off from a covered position. This could have worked better with skulk support, I admit). Unfortunately alien upgrades can do little to combat the one-hit kill, as I and many others as both Skulk and Gorge, with full carapace were popped in a single blast from an upgraded shotgun. Owing to the new sensory trend in alien buildings so as to hide things, Carapace usually doesn't come in until later in the game.
Now, if the Aliens go striaght for defense early on a Skulk would be able to survive more than one hit from an un-upgraded shotgun. However, that's a tactic that's going to need to be tested for the purposes of the early game.
From what I've seen of 2.0 reviews, players on both sides have said that either the aliens are too powerful, or the marines are too powerful.
From my end, I find that the shotgun rush is very difficult to defend against because of how quickly it comes. A viable defense against it is umbra, but unfortunately this is a 2-hive ability and will not be available so early in the game. It's debatable if there's time for a Lerk to gain enough resources and gestate, depending on the map.
However, ultimately the shotgun seems to be too strong if for anything than its ability to kill most any early-game alien. Later game aliens like the Fade and the Onos are indeed weaker than they were. The Fade might get better as people learn how to use the new blink more effectively. However, like the Onos it can die quite easily to a marine with a shotgun. Given the difference in cost (10Res for a shotgun, vs 50 for a Fade) I'd like to think that a Fade can kill one guy with a shotgun. However, against two with shotguns the outcome becomes far more predictable. That being that it would take a skilled Fade to blink around to avoid getting shot, as it only takes about 3-4 hits. A single marine may not be able to squeeze off enough shots to kill a fade when it manages to get close, but two would arguably be a match for a Fade. For the resource cost, I tend to think the shotgun is overpowered.
I mean no disrespect to the developers for their time and effort, but I have to admit that getting consistently plugged by shotgun marines is quite frustrating. While I am by no means a veteran of NS, could I be so bold as to ask that skulks, gorges and lerks be allowed to survive the extra few seconds it takes to squeeze off a second shot?
Comments
We're addressing a issue that needs to be fixed. As soon as the public figures this out, every game will take approximately 2 minutes to win(for marines). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point still remains the same. I highly doubt something this obvious was not discovered during play testing. A solution must be hiding. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is. The Shotty was meant to be a all purpose weapon to combat fades and onos. If you lower the power of the shotty you will have the onos/fade as a game ending thing. If you keep it you have a super powerful marine rush. I'm not sure how they will fix this but this....
Against HA, the fade is no match. Which is my main quirk with 2.0- the HAs are so uber that it takes nothing short of 3 2-hive oni with constant support from lesser lifeforms to take down a train of 4-5 HAs with HMGs, GLs, shottys and welders (and medspam). The fade, taking insnae damage, doesn't manage to surrvive past the 5-second mark if it attempts to do a hit and run on the HA train. And coupled with the fact that the oni HAVE to take redem to survive (otherwise the 100res investment goes to hell pretty fast), it is only in rare cases that the aliens manage to save their hives.
The fade is good against vanilla marines, but against a HA train, there is almost nothing the aliens can do.
Well that should be the way things are. Fades+Onos+other aliens=HA (With varied weapons). Fades alone or similar should get destroyed by HA trains.
So I hear some marines coming. Immediately I drop a few spores. I kinda made a circle around them and started spiking them, so they were forced to move. They had 2 options: a) stay there and get spiked or b) move and get spiked/spored. In panic, they chose the latter and were promptly gassed. This happened a few more times with me taking minimal damage and healing once in a while when my health dropped below 90. Then, 3 rines came, I did the same thing, retreated to some dcs and spiked them while I was getting healed and flying around dodging their fire.
Basically, if you know how to use the lerk, it can be stronger than a fade and even an onos that dies sooo easily to concentrated fire.
However to continue along a common thought in this thread, I have yet some more to say on shotguns.
After playing a series of five games on a server with 11 people, here were the results:
Two games were rushes by the aliens, who quickly popped the Marines before they had an IP up. Of course, this is nothing that can't be prevented by just dropping an IP the instant someone gets in the chair. (This was on Eclipse, for reference).
Two games were shotgun rushes that were arguably devestatingly effective. In one game, two skulks ran to the Marine base, found it empty and started chewing the lone CC and Res tower (I didn't see an armoury, but obviously one was there somewhere). However, by this time the hive had come under attack. The whole game took less than two or three minutes. The hive went down in about twenty seconds, despite the sensory tower that had been placed under it. It sadly affords no protection whatsoever. If I recall correctly, this scenario was repeated twice.
Now, the fifth game in this eclipse series (On a 20-30 minute map rotation, mind you) was not overly entertaining. It was a little turretfort game, where the aliens spent most of their time trying to kill the little phase-gate installations the Marines plopped down just outside a given hive. And this game would have been alright, save one thing. One rather irritating fact about the shotgun is that it will kill just about any early-game alien in one hit. This made attacking those turret farms all the more difficult, merely because there was always a guy or three sitting there waiting to pop you the instant you tried to make a run on it. (Tried a bilebomb Gorge later on, and was prompty popped in one shot after getting about ~3 shots off from a covered position. This could have worked better with skulk support, I admit). Unfortunately alien upgrades can do little to combat the one-hit kill, as I and many others as both Skulk and Gorge, with full carapace were popped in a single blast from an upgraded shotgun. Owing to the new sensory trend in alien buildings so as to hide things, Carapace usually doesn't come in until later in the game.
Now, if the Aliens go striaght for defense early on a Skulk would be able to survive more than one hit from an un-upgraded shotgun. However, that's a tactic that's going to need to be tested for the purposes of the early game.
From what I've seen of 2.0 reviews, players on both sides have said that either the aliens are too powerful, or the marines are too powerful.
From my end, I find that the shotgun rush is very difficult to defend against because of how quickly it comes. A viable defense against it is umbra, but unfortunately this is a 2-hive ability and will not be available so early in the game. It's debatable if there's time for a Lerk to gain enough resources and gestate, depending on the map.
However, ultimately the shotgun seems to be too strong if for anything than its ability to kill most any early-game alien. Later game aliens like the Fade and the Onos are indeed weaker than they were. The Fade might get better as people learn how to use the new blink more effectively. However, like the Onos it can die quite easily to a marine with a shotgun. Given the difference in cost (10Res for a shotgun, vs 50 for a Fade) I'd like to think that a Fade can kill one guy with a shotgun. However, against two with shotguns the outcome becomes far more predictable. That being that it would take a skilled Fade to blink around to avoid getting shot, as it only takes about 3-4 hits. A single marine may not be able to squeeze off enough shots to kill a fade when it manages to get close, but two would arguably be a match for a Fade. For the resource cost, I tend to think the shotgun is overpowered.
I mean no disrespect to the developers for their time and effort, but I have to admit that getting consistently plugged by shotgun marines is quite frustrating. While I am by no means a veteran of NS, could I be so bold as to ask that skulks, gorges and lerks be allowed to survive the extra few seconds it takes to squeeze off a second shot?