Question About Spot_light

Moose

I have a few spot_lights in my map that flicker (Appearance = Fluorescent Flicker) and for some reason i cant make the SPOT flicker just by itself, it makes the ceiling and walls around it faintly flicker as well.

How can i create a spot light that makes the illuminated part flicker only?

thanks for your help in advance. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

Moose

is this like a retarded question ? 11 people have viewed this thread and not 1 reply...... please dont be afraid to tell me im a tard <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but at least tell me if this is normal or not! i am slowly going insane trying to figure this out. i know its possible because of ns_caged yet when i put a light_spot im my map its all over the place. i mean logically you would think ok its called a spot_light so it should be a directed shaft of light right?

sorry for talkin a little wacky but my head hurts, remind self put head in freezer.

Kage

You might need to wait a little more than 30 minutes to get a reply.

What are the radius values on your light_spot (I forgot the exact names, but there are two)?
If you tighten the radius, it might help. Have you tried other light effects to see if they act any differently?

quazilin

What kind of settings you have in your light_spot?
It might be caused by too high bounce on rad, so it bounces the light from the floor to walls and ceiling.

Moose

thatnks for your reply guys.

ok light_spot settings

Inner [Bright] angle = 15
Outer [Fading] Angle = 20
Angle = Down
Pitch = -90
Brightness = 255 255 128 150
Appearance = Fluorescent flicker /and all of the other appearance options react the same.

bounce is set to 1

if you look at the spot_lights in ns_caged you will see what im aiming for ( just the spot itself flickers)

NerdIII

Ever heard that light is being reflected by solid mater?!?!?

Ok it is a game so forutnately you can use Zoner's advanced Light entitiy specifics to make really unrealistic lights of your desire <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> bah
Try to set the _fade value to something else that might help.
Or call HLRAD with -bounce 0, but that is really a damn bad hack.

Moose

Um nerd i don’t remember asking you or anyone else there opinion about the aesthetic use of light. i asked how to achieve a certain light affect thats all.

oh and thanks for your completely redundant suggestions that were already stated by Kage and Quazilin.

PS. have you ever been to a Broadway show before, and seen a spot light used first hand? stage spot lights were designed to illuminate specific elements on a stage with out affecting the overall lighting. yes the shaft of light can be reflected off certain surfaces and yes they need to be SOLID in the molecular sense, but this is worked out months in advance by the lighting crew and stage designers.

sorry for the rant but people like this nerd guy really push my buttons.

changing the fade/bright angle didnt solve the problem. so im wondering if this is even a light_spot issue. maybe ns_caged used some sort of custom light effect. grrrr who knows.....

KFS if you read this could you please shed some light on this question?

ChromeAngel

<!--QuoteBegin--Moose+Jul 14 2003, 10:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moose @ Jul 14 2003, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> KFS if you read this could you please shed some light on this question? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhm... manah made ns_caged...

quazilin

Few screens would help. Add your own light_spot screenshot and the one screenshot of ns_caged and tell how do you want it to be.

NerdIII

Sorry, nobody said anything about the _fade value, so I though I should mention it. And I repeated bounce because quazillin said 'too high bounce value' an I wanted to clearify that a setting bounce completly OFF will cause the effect you want. But you whole level suffers from that. So I said it is a bad hack and looks unrealistic. Does it really sound like a repetition? Wasn't meant that way.

Moose

ok here are 2 demos that will show you exactly what im talking about. they are very short 10 seconds.

chrome i know who made caged. my reason for asking KFS is that i dont see manah around these boards much, so i thought i would ask KFS since they work on the same mod (Night Watch) together and he might know how to do this.

i hope you have enough time to look at the demos.

thanks. download link below

<a href='http://members.cox.net/pavement1/light-test.zip' target='_blank'>http://members.cox.net/pavement1/light-test.zip</a>

Kage

Unfortunately, I can't run your demo without your map.

Moose

sorry about that heres the demos and .bsp file, its a test room.

<a href='http://members.cox.net/pavement1/testlight.zip' target='_blank'>http://members.cox.net/pavement1/testlight.zip</a>

ChromeAngel

The light on the wall in that location isn't the light that's making the spot of the floor, if it had been the pot on the floor would have been an oval. It's just a texure light on the wall with an env_glow in front of it and an light_spot pointing straight down on the floor.

Sorry about the KFS / Manah thing, so many people get mixed up on who made what and I like to see that mappers get the credit they deserve.

[Edit] Oops, you've updated it while I was typing [/edit]

You seem to be getting some bounced light, prehaps you should try expementing with the -coring or -bounce parameters of HLRAD, they might take out that effect.

Moose

KFS, Relic25, Manah, the Pope please for the love of god help a poor, pathetic mapper find his way in these dark times! i need real answers..........slowly going insane.

ChromeAngel

On my simple test map the only thing that got rid of the reflected light was compiling with -bounce 0.

Somehow I don't think manah did it that way. Oh well back to the drawing board.

NerdIII

[EDIT] _fade does not help.
Maybe you should put a big fat light blocking, null-textured func_illusionary over the floor to stop the damn light from bouncing off the floor. grr damn physics. Next time blame god for making physics as it is. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

Ollj

That caged light spot is just a texture with a tiny light infront of it (to make it bright) and the glowing ring is a sprite.
the texture it not causing the light spot on the bottom.

You could try switchable texture lights (texture lights with custom appearance) for realistic light effects with only one entity per light and 2 textures (one for the light bottom texture and one for the light glowing (additive func_wall) that emmits light.
Texture lights make RAD a little slower.

-fade -smooth -chop and -texchop are interestring RAD values here.

Cagey

Under the current system, the only way to stop the spot from bouncing back and hitting other surfaces would be to use -bounce 0. Individual lights don't have an internal bounce counter, so it isn't possible to stop a single light from hitting multiple surfaces.

Any light bounced in RAD scatters unevenly in a cone a full 90 degrees relative to the surface normal, which means that even if you made a box around the light source so that it only pointed down, the reflected light would still hit the walls.

Actual surfaces vary in the amount of scattering they do; a piece of paper will splash a laser pointer's light backwards, but a mirror will reflect a tight beam. Adding more flexibility to lighting physics (in some cases for realism, in some cases for unrealistic but desirable artistic effects) is a goal of mine for the new tools.

Ollj mentioned simulating a light spot with a sprite -- making an animated, additive sprite that is always oriented along the floor would be one way to fake the effect you're looking for. Smoke and mirrors are an important part of any mapper's arsenal <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.

Moose

ahhhh just what i needed to read Cagey thanks for clearing things up <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

in the beginning i thought it was something that i was doing wrong or some compile option i didn?t know how to use fully.

ok so the next step is figuring out how to create my own custom sprite then

NerdIII

Don't be disapointed if the sprite-light comes out pale. That's the curse with rendermode additive.
Anotherthing you could try is -descale x. It is a HLRAD option that was included just because of a bug in the old QRAD tools and now helps to give lighting mor contrast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> -dscale 1 is the usual lighting. -dscale 2 would be the old bugged lighting. It makes the direct light from your light entities twice as bright and leaves the bounced light as it is. Drunken.Monkey even uses a value of -dscale 4, making the direct light extremly bright or if you see it from the other way making reflections 1/4 intense. If you have a lot of dark textures in your map that aren't meant to reflect 100% of the light you should use -dscale anyway! If your level consists of black textures maybe you should try -dscale 10000000 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

DarkATi

I cannot personally help you as I ave never used spotlights in my maps before but I uploaded some screenies so some more people might come have a look and be able to help you at a glance.

Best of Luck! <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->

~DarkATi

DarkATi

And off.

ChromeAngel

I don't think the caged example is a sprite either, because it's half over the floor and half over an incline. Additive func_illusionary maybe?

Prehaps a nice Quark user could open up caged and take a look at the entity setup there?

NerdIII

Which light in caged do you mean? That one behind the blast doors on the left side of marine spawn?

NerdIII

Well wherever it is, walk over it and look down. If the contrast of the light circle is high, it is no sprite. And additive sprite would make it look really pale. If your model is lit as well there is a light_spot for sure.

ChromeAngel

NerdIII, check out the demo attached on page 1.

NerdIII

this one perhaps? nothing there but a light spot

[EDIT] I know his demo map, I just don't know which effect from caged he wants to resemble, so I guess...

Yamazaki

It used to be set up that named lights will not bounce, which would achieve the effect you're looking for. Not sure if this was 'corrected' in a recent version of RAD (Like Zoner's or Merl's), but try giving the light_spot a name and then having it start on using a flag. The end result will be high contrast and have no bounces... hopefully.

Downside, named entities have a higher overhead than unnamed entities (Some end up in the visible packet list, others just take a share of the server CPU, or both), so don't use this effect for several dozen light groups.

Cagey

Looks like Laurie's texlight additions were responsible for making dynamic lights (including named lights) bounce:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->for (i = 0; i < g_num_patches; i++)
   {
#ifdef ZHLT_TEXLIGHT
       //LRC
 for (j = 0; j < MAXLIGHTMAPS && g_patches[i].totalstyle[j] != 255; j++)
 {
        VectorScale(g_patches[i].totallight[j], TRANSFER_SCALE, emitlight[i][j]);
 }
#else
       VectorScale(g_patches[i].totallight, TRANSFER_SCALE, emitlight[i]);
#endif
   }<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
- emitlight values become sources for bounce lighting
- the old system used a single value representing the amount of static light to bounce
- the new system bounces each lightstyle one at a time

Given that the change is in Merl's 1.7 (possibly 1.6, I need to find a change history), you could use Zoner's 2.5.3 to get the old, bounceless flickering spot. I guess this is one instance where "progress" is undesirable--most of the time you'd still want dynamic light to bounce anyway. I didn't even realize that dynamic lights didn't originally bounce until I looked over the code again--guess that's what I get for jumping in after 4 years of modifications.

Since named lights are remembered by the engine through the use of a different light style, newer builds of HLRAD would bounce them--the code block above applies to them as well.

ChromeAngel

<!--QuoteBegin--XP-Cagey+Jul 17 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XP-Cagey @ Jul 17 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Looks like Laurie's texlight additions were responsible for making dynamic lights (including named lights) bounce:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->for (i = 0; i < g_num_patches; i++)
   {
#ifdef ZHLT_TEXLIGHT
       //LRC
 for (j = 0; j < MAXLIGHTMAPS && g_patches[i].totalstyle[j] != 255; j++)
 {
        VectorScale(g_patches[i].totallight[j], TRANSFER_SCALE, emitlight[i][j]);
 }
#else
       VectorScale(g_patches[i].totallight, TRANSFER_SCALE, emitlight[i]);
#endif
   }<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
- emitlight values become sources for bounce lighting
- the old system used a single value representing the amount of static light to bounce
- the new system bounces each lightstyle one at a time

Given that the change is in Merl's 1.7 (possibly 1.6, I need to find a change history), you could use Zoner's 2.5.3 to get the old, bounceless flickering spot. I guess this is one instance where "progress" is undesirable--most of the time you'd still want dynamic light to bounce anyway. I didn't even realize that dynamic lights didn't originally bounce until I looked over the code again--guess that's what I get for jumping in after 4 years of modifications.

Since named lights are remembered by the engine through the use of a different light style, newer builds of HLRAD would bounce them--the code block above applies to them as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you're saying is to get the effect seen in ns_caged, just use old compile tools?

<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->