<!--QuoteBegin--wizard@psu+Jul 15 2003, 11:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Jul 15 2003, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would have to cast my vote of "NO" for this.
It would be far too prone for abuse. What prevents me from submitting fake demos of legitimate players? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing! If you were that kind of person, you would be called a jerk! The comity can review the demo and there would be certian requirments to each demo, A proper Gamma Level to be able to see, no longer than 10 mins.. and so on.
If you want to submit a fake demo, they will review it and if nothing wrong is found nothing will be done, then if you do it again and still nothing is found, the comity might start watching to see if you are a consistant demo submiter of people that have been found Innocent, you would be possible given a low level icon if you continued to abuse the comity system!
This is why there would be certian guidlines to submitting a demo, so that people don't submit useless demos that can't prove anything, and to stop people from abusing this system!
<!--QuoteBegin--[Elrond]+Jul 15 2003, 11:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([Elrond] @ Jul 15 2003, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--wizard@psu+Jul 15 2003, 11:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Jul 15 2003, 11:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would have to cast my vote of "NO" for this.
It would be far too prone for abuse. What prevents me from submitting fake demos of legitimate players? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> agreed. leave the adminning to the admins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WHO SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO?
I just broke it down for you.
Its an ICON, its up to the admins to ban or kick, this just gives them a HEADS UP! The comity is there to help reduce Llamas! I can't understand why anyone wouldn't suport this at all.
Cheaters and Lamers are a problem, this sytem will single out these people and put them in to spot light! Stealing a Car is something you do at night, when its not easy to be noticed. You wouldn't steal a car is you had a bright light shining on you at all time would you?
Cheating is something that the average person does discreetly (like a wall hack), you don't want to give away you have it by looking at a wall and firing, you would look and then move on, try to make it as hard to tell that your cheating as you can. Making a demo of a person who looks like they might be cheating is the best way to catch that person, if you get SOLID proof you have him by the nuts! Whats Next? You show the demo to the server admin and he gets a swift **** kicking and is Banned. GOOD JOB! Now all you have done is removed him from this server, he'll be back at cheating again, but on a new server. If you sent the Demo to The Comity, they would do just like the Admin would and Lable him a proven cheater, only difference is that now hes stuck with this rep on ever server so everyone knows that hes a cheater! Now not just one admin knows he cheats but every admin who sees him.
as soon as the admins on servers see this icon, you'll get banned anyway.... its just a picture instead of numbers... besides, dont you think it will get to be a status symbol among cheaters? the same way the number of trips to the principals office did in grade school?
Biff: "i just got back from the principals office" Buff: "oh yea, ive been 8 times!" Biff: "HAH! ive been 12" Buff: *hits biff*
see what i mean? besides, i think the system works fine now, and im not in support of any kind of punitive action, as my wonid was recently banned by VAC because someone was using it to hack with...AND I DONT HACK
<!--QuoteBegin--Ulatoh+Jul 16 2003, 09:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ulatoh @ Jul 16 2003, 09:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> as soon as the admins on servers see this icon, you'll get banned anyway.... its just a picture instead of numbers... besides, dont you think it will get to be a status symbol among cheaters? the same way the number of trips to the principals office did in grade school?
Biff: "i just got back from the principals office" Buff: "oh yea, ive been 8 times!" Biff: "HAH! ive been 12" Buff: *hits biff*
see what i mean? besides, i think the system works fine now, and im not in support of any kind of punitive action, as my wonid was recently banned by VAC because someone was using it to hack with...AND I DONT HACK <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone would need to understand that the different Lables mena different things! Here I'll give an Example: <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that you received a warning for using poor game conduct <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that this is your first offence at something Small <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> - means you are a repeat offender at something small <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that you are a proven 1 time cheater <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that you are a cheater who continues to cheat <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> - BAN HIM RIGHT NOW, He will ruin your game and your server! and uses different WON IDS!
Different levels of punishment fit different icons.
If you uses the FL build explote and are warned and you do it again and again, till someone gets you labled with a <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> icon. Now everyone knows that you have been warned about using low level explotes or that you sware too much or spam voice, in general have been warned about poor game conduct! If that person is going to continue to break server rules be a jerk and use bad game conduct they will be upgraded to <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> for a first ofence icon, meaning that you have been warned and continue to do it!
Once Admins learn the Icons, they will know that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> means warning and that its an icon that only lasts for a week, because he did something unbecomming of a gamer. If the admin sees someone with a <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> icon, he knows that this guy has been a trouble maker so you should watch him closely, if he does anything bad, he should be kicked! But not unjustly. If he sees a guys with the <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> icon, he knows that this guy has been cought using Cheats or hacks but only that one time, He may have stoped but its a good idea to keep an eye on him.
I hope this clears things up! Its always going to be up to the admin to take the actions!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To Elrond: First of all, I am NOT advocating the fiddling with of code. What I thought added to my idea was the fact that these icons are already in place in the NS mod - not something that Flayra would have to waste time inventing. While BYNS and Daemon server have an excellent system for patrolling and banning in NS servers - cheaters simply are not afraid of you. They dont have it easy, and they do get banned, but they can simply move on to another server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then in all fairness, that is the problem of the other server operator. if they can't copy and paste bans from the BYabuse database they arew unlikely to do the same with an NS.org sponsored database either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Because it still relies upon the motivation and organisation of lots of people in little groups of servers everywhere. That is going to be well nigh impossible. And still if you could manage to "motivate the NS gaming community", they would still be fragmented. I am suggesting that a small centralized body of motivated people set themselves up and let people from anywhere (be they patrolled groups servers or just the local) post demos of griefers and know that they are not just helping themselves, they are helping players (and admins) everywhere. And suddenly the cheaters have something to be afraid of - its not just another ban, its identification.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we'd go through wonids like toilet roll in a food poisoning epidemic. the merits of identifying WONIDs that have been proven as h4x is not lost on me, i simply know for a fatc that 99% of corporate server operators will simply not import bans from other GSPs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note to all: I find it strange that the people who object most to this idea (Elrond, Daddeh, Stoneburg, Spooge) all seem to come from really well maintained and admined servers. I know ur system is great and working well - but why would you oppose this one? It will only help you guys, and wont infringe on ur sacred admin rights - as well as helping the community at large. I just dont get it....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see above. it's not about "sacred admin rights" either. if you admin for a corporate GSP, then that GSP will have its' own server management guidelines, which its' admins will have to agree to and abide by. they just won't take the chance of a "fed" popping, saying the wrong thing and offending customers.
I know, I know, necroposting. We all do it, but no one likes to be caught ressurecting their own thread....
Still, it was my suggestion for a BUS, and Charlie did have a similiar idea, so I thought I'd bring it back up again and see what people these days reckon.
Holy Necromancy Batman! And now because I'd hate for you to resurrect your own thread and get no feedback...
I'd say it would be an excellent candidate for the BUS. This and that idea about keeping track of your stats across all NS servers. Both of them would kick ****, and let me tell you why, beyond their obvious functionality. They would be stepping stones to a larger networking of all servers, and ultimately this could lead to massive a "galaxy-spanning war" where some database keeps track of every planet/outpost lost or captured by both sides.
Hey, I can dream <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
one of the quotes was mine too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+May 11 2004, 12:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ May 11 2004, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Holy Necromancy Batman! And now because I'd hate for you to resurrect your own thread and get no feedback...
I'd say it would be an excellent candidate for the BUS. This and that idea about keeping track of your stats across all NS servers. Both of them would kick ****, and let me tell you why, beyond their obvious functionality. They would be stepping stones to a larger networking of all servers, and ultimately this could lead to massive a "galaxy-spanning war" where some database keeps track of every planet/outpost lost or captured by both sides.
Hey, I can dream <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I do appreciate the feedback to my post, I was thinking more along the lines of what Flayra said on <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37955&view=findpost&p=520508' target='_blank'>Page 3</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Great ideas here. This is a very difficult problem to solve.
I like your basic idea, and it wouldn't be too hard (technically) to set up. I think it would work great, and it fits very nicely into the social ideals of NS as well. The hard part here would be setting up an interface for admins to be able to cast their vote, but without letting the average Joe cast votes against someone they don't like. Of course, any player can set up a dedicated server easily, so this distinction isn't simple. The Devs and PTs have talked about setting up an "official" server ring, where they are invited into the group after operating for a certain amount of time, and showing that they support NS community ideals. If this was functional, I could see allowing voting for just these ops, and the system working well. In any case, this sounds like something to revisit when there isn't so much important other work to be done.
Don't be too down on VAC and CD, they are both constantly in development, and as far as I can tell, rumors of their faults have been greatly exaggerated (as is the prevalence of cheating).
One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
This system depends on having a trusted group of dedicated "police" (with a special icon), with authorization to kick people from any server participating in the program (probably via a server side variable, mp_police 1 or something). Potential downfalls include abusive police, and the fact that people can change their behavior after the vote succeeds and they see a police person joining the server. I really like the concept of this type of organization though, where a larger able-bodied group can help a whole group of servers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While it would be great if he implemented both systems, it would be far more likely he'd go with his own (everyone loves their own idea <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->). Implementing a police force for NS would require the setting up of a Big System, which is what I was suggesting might be about to happen.
There is virtually no way to distinguish one of the top ns players in the game from a wallhacker who knows how to not be blatant.
I've personally been banned from most of the servers in the game I ping semi decent to and im sure most players who can hold their own in a delta match can say the same.
As a server admin, I highly reccomend aginst this - it is nearly impossible to catch true cheaters through sight alone, especally if they are good ones. It would be much too easy to label an innocent as guilty, and vice versa to make this plan worth considering. Catching cheaters is <b>difficult</b> - regardless of who you have doing it.
The comments about VAC are outdated now, it really is having an impact on mass cheating espcially considering VAC does give out global bans for cheating violations.
Sooner NS gets VAC the better - there will automatically be asshats from other mods banned for cheating.
I say no because I would only trust a handful of admins to be fair. I've been banned from the #naturalselection channel for simply disagreeing with an admin, it was sorted out but would this really happen on public game servers?
Secondly having a black mark wouldn't benefit anyone. It'd just make people paranoid and enjoy the game less, worrying about the cheater ruining their fun. The cheater wouldn't care that much anyway. The black mark would become a "Ban me now or say goodbye to the fun" mark.
Pub players: Move server, if you stay on one server then get in touch with the admin.
Clan players: There are systems already in place.
at the end of the day I've never worried about cheaters and I've had lots of fun.
While it sounds good at first, this system would be open to abuse.
Let's say a reasonably skilled player gets labelled with a "Cheater" icon, even though he is entirely innocent. Every time he kills someone, or gets a higher-than-average score, people are going to be accusing of him of cheating and calling for him to be kicked/banned from the server.
You would have to be very, very sure that the person really deserved the icon.
It's a nice idea, but there are a few fundamental flaws - not with the idea, but as a result of NS and the community
Firstly, the community is actually very small. In comparison to other online games (SWG, CS, Farcry, Lineage, DoD, UT2k4, etc etc).
One of the results of having a small community, and particularly as a result of the nature of this game, is that there are actually very few cheats. You can't do much with a wallhack that MT or SoF won't let you do. When combined with headphones... a Wallhack essentially isn't necessairy.
One of the wierd things about NS is the unusual hitbox sizes. Skulk, lerks, gorges, and onos have very odd hitbox sizes for standard FPS. Result? 99% of 'aimbots' don't work. They work with vectors (it tells the aimbot where to aim in relation to the center of the model) - use standard vecs vs a skulk, you miss. same with gorges and lerks.
How many people have *actually* seen a cheat? This would be the biggest problem - on average some one will make a serious accusation of cheat on a server once every 5 games. (not one person, but of all the people through those 5 rounds... ball park figure, work with me here). Now, suppose that one person then makes a demo and submits it. Typical demo size? 10mb? to get some decent length footage.
x500 for lots of servers. We now have a hell of a lot of pointless demo footage sitting around, 99.9999999999999% of which will contain nothing more than a good player being watched by a 'CS Kiddie' (a term used for people who like to shout cheat because they are too arrogant to accept they suck at the game - not necessairily CS players).
Who could honestly say they would happily watch that stuff....? lots of people on here will say "i'll do it for the community". Now take out of them the people who actually don't know how a cheat works, or what they are/arn't capable off (contrary to popular belief, client side cheats can't let you walk through walls, turn invisible, teleport (with a couple of exceptions like the old CS bug), be invincible, etc etc) - we are suddenly down to a very few people with a LARGE job on their hands
it's a good idea. i like it. a global banlist makes sense. but i honestly can't see it going forward, because of all those reasons.
couple that with the fact that (to my knowledge, correct me if i'm wrong) there is no decent demo-watching program to let you pause / run slow motion / skip through... watching demo's in halflife is depressing. the quality is poor, the framerate blows, the animation doesnt play with the sound, and you can't rewind easily.
<!--QuoteBegin-shanks+May 11 2004, 06:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shanks @ May 11 2004, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> couple that with the fact that (to my knowledge, correct me if i'm wrong) there is no decent demo-watching program to let you pause / run slow motion / skip through... watching demo's in halflife is depressing. the quality is poor, the framerate blows, the animation doesnt play with the sound, and you can't rewind easily. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> viewdemo <demoname>
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
wow what a huge thread bump/ressurection this is,
after reading all the new posts, meh.
It stll seems like a wonderful idea however there are just too many "buts/what if" factors involved to make it work on a large scale basis.
On the plus side however, I have noticed CD updating itself a lot more frequently and keepin gup with newer cheats faster then ever before.
But yea still Game cheating is like copywrite protection systems, a new system/patch will come out only to be out paced by the cheaters. Then repeat cycle all over again. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD)Squishy+May 11 2004, 12:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD)Squishy @ May 11 2004, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is virtually no way to distinguish one of the top ns players in the game from a wallhacker who knows how to not be blatant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Roger that, Squishy.
*Remebers first time playing against Titanium*
eesh...not pretty. Of course, I was a n00b and didn't know who he was, so I called him on h4x. As did everyone else on the server....yeah.
Maybe we should think in the opposite direction... Instead of punishing the omnipresent cheaters and dealing with the difficulties involved with that, how about something more like a "reward system" ? Players could be rated for teamplay, i.e., someone who keeps welding your a$$ in a fight or follows your orders (if you're comm) can be given a good rating. Also, without negative ratings there the risk of abuse becomes increasingly negligible (like, "cheater-clans" giving each other good ratings).
Comments
It would be far too prone for abuse. What prevents me from submitting fake demos of legitimate players? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing!
If you were that kind of person, you would be called a jerk!
The comity can review the demo and there would be certian requirments to each demo, A proper Gamma Level to be able to see, no longer than 10 mins.. and so on.
If you want to submit a fake demo, they will review it and if nothing wrong is found nothing will be done, then if you do it again and still nothing is found, the comity might start watching to see if you are a consistant demo submiter of people that have been found Innocent, you would be possible given a low level icon if you continued to abuse the comity system!
This is why there would be certian guidlines to submitting a demo, so that people don't submit useless demos that can't prove anything, and to stop people from abusing this system!
It would be far too prone for abuse. What prevents me from submitting fake demos of legitimate players? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed. leave the adminning to the admins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHO SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO?
I just broke it down for you.
Its an ICON, its up to the admins to ban or kick, this just gives them a HEADS UP! The comity is there to help reduce Llamas! I can't understand why anyone wouldn't suport this at all.
Cheaters and Lamers are a problem, this sytem will single out these people and put them in to spot light!
Stealing a Car is something you do at night, when its not easy to be noticed. You wouldn't steal a car is you had a bright light shining on you at all time would you?
Cheating is something that the average person does discreetly (like a wall hack), you don't want to give away you have it by looking at a wall and firing, you would look and then move on, try to make it as hard to tell that your cheating as you can. Making a demo of a person who looks like they might be cheating is the best way to catch that person, if you get SOLID proof you have him by the nuts! Whats Next? You show the demo to the server admin and he gets a swift **** kicking and is Banned. GOOD JOB! Now all you have done is removed him from this server, he'll be back at cheating again, but on a new server.
If you sent the Demo to The Comity, they would do just like the Admin would and Lable him a proven cheater, only difference is that now hes stuck with this rep on ever server so everyone knows that hes a cheater! Now not just one admin knows he cheats but every admin who sees him.
Biff: "i just got back from the principals office"
Buff: "oh yea, ive been 8 times!"
Biff: "HAH! ive been 12"
Buff: *hits biff*
see what i mean?
besides, i think the system works fine now, and im not in support of any kind of punitive action, as my wonid was recently banned by VAC because someone was using it to hack with...AND I DONT HACK
Biff: "i just got back from the principals office"
Buff: "oh yea, ive been 8 times!"
Biff: "HAH! ive been 12"
Buff: *hits biff*
see what i mean?
besides, i think the system works fine now, and im not in support of any kind of punitive action, as my wonid was recently banned by VAC because someone was using it to hack with...AND I DONT HACK <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone would need to understand that the different Lables mena different things!
Here I'll give an Example:
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that you received a warning for using poor game conduct
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that this is your first offence at something Small
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> - means you are a repeat offender at something small
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that you are a proven 1 time cheater
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> - means that you are a cheater who continues to cheat
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> - BAN HIM RIGHT NOW, He will ruin your game and your server! and uses different WON IDS!
Different levels of punishment fit different icons.
If you uses the FL build explote and are warned and you do it again and again, till someone gets you labled with a <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> icon. Now everyone knows that you have been warned about using low level explotes or that you sware too much or spam voice, in general have been warned about poor game conduct! If that person is going to continue to break server rules be a jerk and use bad game conduct they will be upgraded to <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> for a first ofence icon, meaning that you have been warned and continue to do it!
Once Admins learn the Icons, they will know that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> means warning and that its an icon that only lasts for a week, because he did something unbecomming of a gamer. If the admin sees someone with a <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> icon, he knows that this guy has been a trouble maker so you should watch him closely, if he does anything bad, he should be kicked! But not unjustly.
If he sees a guys with the <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> icon, he knows that this guy has been cought using Cheats or hacks but only that one time, He may have stoped but its a good idea to keep an eye on him.
I hope this clears things up!
Its always going to be up to the admin to take the actions!
then in all fairness, that is the problem of the other server operator. if they can't copy and paste bans from the BYabuse database they arew unlikely to do the same with an NS.org sponsored database either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Because it still relies upon the motivation and organisation of lots of people in little groups of servers everywhere. That is going to be well nigh impossible. And still if you could manage to "motivate the NS gaming community", they would still be fragmented. I am suggesting that a small centralized body of motivated people set themselves up and let people from anywhere (be they patrolled groups servers or just the local) post demos of griefers and know that they are not just helping themselves, they are helping players (and admins) everywhere. And suddenly the cheaters have something to be afraid of - its not just another ban, its identification.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we'd go through wonids like toilet roll in a food poisoning epidemic. the merits of identifying WONIDs that have been proven as h4x is not lost on me, i simply know for a fatc that 99% of corporate server operators will simply not import bans from other GSPs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note to all: I find it strange that the people who object most to this idea (Elrond, Daddeh, Stoneburg, Spooge) all seem to come from really well maintained and admined servers. I know ur system is great and working well - but why would you oppose this one? It will only help you guys, and wont infringe on ur sacred admin rights - as well as helping the community at large. I just dont get it....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see above. it's not about "sacred admin rights" either. if you admin for a corporate GSP, then that GSP will have its' own server management guidelines, which its' admins will have to agree to and abide by. they just won't take the chance of a "fed" popping, saying the wrong thing and offending customers.
Still, it was my suggestion for a BUS, and Charlie did have a similiar idea, so I thought I'd bring it back up again and see what people these days reckon.
And now because I'd hate for you to resurrect your own thread and get no feedback...
I'd say it would be an excellent candidate for the BUS. This and that idea about keeping track of your stats across all NS servers. Both of them would kick ****, and let me tell you why, beyond their obvious functionality. They would be stepping stones to a larger networking of all servers, and ultimately this could lead to massive a "galaxy-spanning war" where some database keeps track of every planet/outpost lost or captured by both sides.
Hey, I can dream <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
one of the quotes was mine too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And now because I'd hate for you to resurrect your own thread and get no feedback...
I'd say it would be an excellent candidate for the BUS. This and that idea about keeping track of your stats across all NS servers. Both of them would kick ****, and let me tell you why, beyond their obvious functionality. They would be stepping stones to a larger networking of all servers, and ultimately this could lead to massive a "galaxy-spanning war" where some database keeps track of every planet/outpost lost or captured by both sides.
Hey, I can dream <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> . <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I do appreciate the feedback to my post, I was thinking more along the lines of what Flayra said on <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37955&view=findpost&p=520508' target='_blank'>Page 3</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Great ideas here. This is a very difficult problem to solve.
I like your basic idea, and it wouldn't be too hard (technically) to set up. I think it would work great, and it fits very nicely into the social ideals of NS as well. The hard part here would be setting up an interface for admins to be able to cast their vote, but without letting the average Joe cast votes against someone they don't like. Of course, any player can set up a dedicated server easily, so this distinction isn't simple. The Devs and PTs have talked about setting up an "official" server ring, where they are invited into the group after operating for a certain amount of time, and showing that they support NS community ideals. If this was functional, I could see allowing voting for just these ops, and the system working well. In any case, this sounds like something to revisit when there isn't so much important other work to be done.
Don't be too down on VAC and CD, they are both constantly in development, and as far as I can tell, rumors of their faults have been greatly exaggerated (as is the prevalence of cheating).
One thing I'd really like to implement one say, is a general policing task force. Players could "call the cops" while playing, much like they can eject the commander. If a certain percentage of people "call the cops" within a certain time, an APB goes out. This could go to an IRC channel, it could send e-mail, post a news post on a central web site, update a database, etc. The important thing is that there is a group of trusted individuals who are ready to respond. They see the incoming message, then they click it to join the server. They then spectate, and watch to see what's happening. They then would have the power to kick out or reprimand a player, if they were being abusive or were apparently cheating.
This system depends on having a trusted group of dedicated "police" (with a special icon), with authorization to kick people from any server participating in the program (probably via a server side variable, mp_police 1 or something). Potential downfalls include abusive police, and the fact that people can change their behavior after the vote succeeds and they see a police person joining the server. I really like the concept of this type of organization though, where a larger able-bodied group can help a whole group of servers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While it would be great if he implemented both systems, it would be far more likely he'd go with his own (everyone loves their own idea <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->). Implementing a police force for NS would require the setting up of a Big System, which is what I was suggesting might be about to happen.
That is all.
Possible? Yes.
Likely? Maybe.
Most relevant suggestion so far? Without a doubt.
"NO ONE SUSPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!"
I've personally been banned from most of the servers in the game I ping semi decent to and im sure most players who can hold their own in a delta match can say the same.
Sooner NS gets VAC the better - there will automatically be asshats from other mods banned for cheating.
Although VAC has had false positives in the past, I was under the impression it is pretty good at stopping the casual cheater.
Secondly having a black mark wouldn't benefit anyone. It'd just make people paranoid and enjoy the game less, worrying about the cheater ruining their fun. The cheater wouldn't care that much anyway. The black mark would become a "Ban me now or say goodbye to the fun" mark.
Pub players: Move server, if you stay on one server then get in touch with the admin.
Clan players: There are systems already in place.
at the end of the day I've never worried about cheaters and I've had lots of fun.
Wouldnt it be simpler and less confusing if someone made a new post
For a minute there I though my time machine had worked and I had gone back a year :/
Let's say a reasonably skilled player gets labelled with a "Cheater" icon, even though he is entirely innocent. Every time he kills someone, or gets a higher-than-average score, people are going to be accusing of him of cheating and calling for him to be kicked/banned from the server.
You would have to be very, very sure that the person really deserved the icon.
Firstly, the community is actually very small. In comparison to other online games (SWG, CS, Farcry, Lineage, DoD, UT2k4, etc etc).
One of the results of having a small community, and particularly as a result of the nature of this game, is that there are actually very few cheats.
You can't do much with a wallhack that MT or SoF won't let you do. When combined with headphones... a Wallhack essentially isn't necessairy.
One of the wierd things about NS is the unusual hitbox sizes. Skulk, lerks, gorges, and onos have very odd hitbox sizes for standard FPS. Result? 99% of 'aimbots' don't work. They work with vectors (it tells the aimbot where to aim in relation to the center of the model) - use standard vecs vs a skulk, you miss. same with gorges and lerks.
How many people have *actually* seen a cheat? This would be the biggest problem - on average some one will make a serious accusation of cheat on a server once every 5 games. (not one person, but of all the people through those 5 rounds... ball park figure, work with me here). Now, suppose that one person then makes a demo and submits it. Typical demo size? 10mb? to get some decent length footage.
x500 for lots of servers. We now have a hell of a lot of pointless demo footage sitting around, 99.9999999999999% of which will contain nothing more than a good player being watched by a 'CS Kiddie' (a term used for people who like to shout cheat because they are too arrogant to accept they suck at the game - not necessairily CS players).
Who could honestly say they would happily watch that stuff....? lots of people on here will say "i'll do it for the community".
Now take out of them the people who actually don't know how a cheat works, or what they are/arn't capable off (contrary to popular belief, client side cheats can't let you walk through walls, turn invisible, teleport (with a couple of exceptions like the old CS bug), be invincible, etc etc) - we are suddenly down to a very few people with a LARGE job on their hands
it's a good idea. i like it. a global banlist makes sense. but i honestly can't see it going forward, because of all those reasons.
couple that with the fact that (to my knowledge, correct me if i'm wrong) there is no decent demo-watching program to let you pause / run slow motion / skip through... watching demo's in halflife is depressing. the quality is poor, the framerate blows, the animation doesnt play with the sound, and you can't rewind easily.
viewdemo <demoname>
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
after reading all the new posts, meh.
It stll seems like a wonderful idea however there are just too many "buts/what if" factors involved to make it work on a large scale basis.
On the plus side however, I have noticed CD updating itself a lot more frequently and keepin gup with newer cheats faster then ever before.
But yea still
Game cheating is like copywrite protection systems, a new system/patch will come out only to be out paced by the cheaters. Then repeat cycle all over again. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways.... itd be cool... but id hate to have the job of reviewing counless demo's, pictures... ect....
~Jason
Roger that, Squishy.
*Remebers first time playing against Titanium*
eesh...not pretty. Of course, I was a n00b and didn't know who he was, so I called him on h4x. As did everyone else on the server....yeah.
Instead of punishing the omnipresent cheaters and dealing with the difficulties involved with that, how about something more like a "reward system" ?
Players could be rated for teamplay, i.e., someone who keeps welding your a$$ in a fight or follows your orders (if you're comm) can be given a good rating.
Also, without negative ratings there the risk of abuse becomes increasingly negligible (like, "cheater-clans" giving each other good ratings).