ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Well maybe you can just shoot mines better than i can, but the point is I have never seen this strat countered the way you have described it (with mass gorges). Usually where the plan falls apart is at the beginning, before the IP is set up. And again, it's going to take longer than 2 and a half minutes to get those D up because aliens aren't going to KNOW about the plan until the marines start dropping building outside of their hive. Of course, this strat works a hell of a lot better on some hive locations than others. Think Chemical transport. Try blowing up the mines in that room without getting close. Or maybe Keyhole. But you're right. If people keep doing it, aliens will wise up and make it harder. I'm saying that this strat is on the order of the JP/HMG strat in terms of likelyhood of success and power. Marines are STILL in a better position relocating next to your hive, well better than they were than before anyways. If you wanted to gorge rush, you could do that even if the marines were still in the marine start (and it works sometimes too, if you do it right)
It's a one-shot strat so I think it's useless. Any strat that doesn't allow a fallback alternative is in my mind not worth the energy. I have seen the strat you describe countered, my freshest memory is on eclipse where the Marines relocated to South Loop/Keyhole.
We got 2 or 3 gorges, I was one of them, and planted some D's right next to the wall under the hive. Me and one other gorge was jumping back and forth spitting Mines while skulks took out any Marines that ran in after us. Marines got a siege up before we killed them and managed to kill some D's but we got new up quickly, the hive was probably not very hurt since one siege doesn't do much and there was always at least one gorge healing it. With a co-ordinated attack, 1 gorge and some skulks from the back and the rest of us from the front we took the base out and the COM was forced to drop IP's in Marines old base. We took the map, got three hives and babbler rushed them.
Most Marine tactics will work on pubs since it seems that Aliens refuse to accept that tactics and teamwork is at least as vital for them as for Marines. In a good enviroment however, these sort of one-shot strategies usually only earns you the scorn of the opposition. As far as I know there are no un-counterable strategies, but there are strategies that take more teamwork to counter then others.
There's no need for 4 ips unless you know that the marines intend to suck really bad.
2 should be enough at first, especially if you intend to siege, because then you dont have to rush in and your mortality rate will be much better. And you can afford to get some easy res nodes while the aliens try to defend their hive.
Make sure to place your mines so the gorges can't try to spit them without putting themselves in the line of fire for your eager trigger happy marines. Preferrably any alien would have to kill at least 1 marine to even get near the mines.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Very well put sausage.
The point is that your marines have to be able to withstand even coordinated alien rushes because marines are SUPPOED to have the upper hand early game. And this strat DOES have plenty of fallback options, if the commander is smart. With the team relocated to southloop/keyhole, the aliens are limited to ONE res node, while the marines can cap nodes in relative peace. Now if your marines are having trouble defending against the skulk attacks, then they obviously need more skill to pull it off against that particular alien teams.
Aliens can used coordination, and so can the marines. The better coordinated team wins.
<!--QuoteBegin--|ds|meatshield+Jul 15 2003, 04:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jul 15 2003, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very well put sausage.
The point is that your marines have to be able to withstand even coordinated alien rushes because marines are SUPPOED to have the upper hand early game. And this strat DOES have plenty of fallback options, if the commander is smart. With the team relocated to southloop/keyhole, the aliens are limited to ONE res node, while the marines can cap nodes in relative peace. Now if your marines are having trouble defending against the skulk attacks, then they obviously need more skill to pull it off against that particular alien teams.
Aliens can used coordination, and so can the marines. The better coordinated team wins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, I completely agree. It's a solid strategy, especially on larger servers.
However, I <i>do</i> object to calling it "a guaranteed victory", and "overpowered". Sure, if the aliens stick to the old "1 gorge, and he should get 1 or 2 RTs and then DCs", they're going to lose horribly. I'm just trying to say there <i>IS</i> a decent way for aliens to fight back. As you said yourself, the better team will win. The marines won't automatically win, just because they use this strategy. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Hmm, reading back, I notice I'm a little bit "This counter will always work" myself. Didn't really mean it that way, sorry. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--EnemyWithin+Jul 9 2003, 04:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EnemyWithin @ Jul 9 2003, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Theorically HA/hmg team could pretty easily stop those fades, but hey we are talking about public server here. Those rushes never work. Weld me!!! Need ammo!!! Med!!! Give me a HA/hmg cuz i went to solo and died!!! Go to wp everybody!!! No wp is not in there!!! Stick together!!! *head explodes* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude.... HA/HMG on pub servers is the funnest thing in the WORLD..... just for that reason.... I love being comm.. i get to scream at everyone and be justified. I get to have everyone scream back, med and ammo spam, and slowly, ever so slowly, move into the hive and take it out..... Its like an action movie, with 10x the chaos...... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
of course after that i say SOMEONE ELSE COMM im stressed out..... but god the best times on NS are the pub ha rushes on 2 hive aliens......... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Yay! We've come to an agreement! You're right too. It's not FOOLproof, it's just that I've had it work so much more often than not. In conclusion, use this strat if you want to win more often <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, aliens will hate you, call you cheap, etc. (of course a skulk rush at the beginning is NEVER cheap.)
Any powerful marine strategy will be called "cheap". This is because of two things: 1. Most aliens are too lazy/unorganized(/stupid?) to counter things properly. 2. NS is really more fun when the aliens win. For both sides.
When marines do something nasty to you, you can really do two things... You can call it cheap and walk away, or you can let them do it again a few more times until you figure out a good counter and then totally crush them. I prefer the second. Beating "cheap" strategies is the most fulfilling thing in ns imho. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There IS such a thing as a cheap strategy, and because marines have a much wider variety of possible strategies, most will belong to them.
That beging said, I make an effort to avoid using them when i comm, I HATE the JP rush with a vengance, because its the most played strategy on pubs theese days, on most maps it requires little or no skill to pull off, and its gatting old being shot from 10 metres up in the air where you cannot possibly get back at the guy who did it.
I've seen games where the marines had JP's before anyone (well except the gorge), had res to lerk. Since we were holed up in refinery, we were toast when 4 jp (2 with shotties) flew into our hive. You can object and say the we could have done this and that to prevent it, but bottom line is that the effort the marines had to put into an iron clad win, was minimal, they had to hold two locations for a few minutes, against vanilla skulks.
Relocating to keyhole when the aliens are in maint, is pretty much the same thing. It's not unwinnable as alien, having done it, I know it's only a question of being a superior team, problem is that the margin by which you have to be better is HUGE.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Hence in 2.0 marines do not hold an advantage over the aliens early game.
Oh and I DO beg to differ about jp/hmg rush not taking skill. Try playing against the top clans without any skills or organization and lets see you succeed in your jp/hmg rush. Every clan has had lots of practice countering it.
I did this before, and two people left, said I was a moron (they were on my team) came back later, joined aliens, and lost (same game). Victory is sweet when you can shove it in other peoples faces.
Comments
We got 2 or 3 gorges, I was one of them, and planted some D's right next to the wall under the hive. Me and one other gorge was jumping back and forth spitting Mines while skulks took out any Marines that ran in after us. Marines got a siege up before we killed them and managed to kill some D's but we got new up quickly, the hive was probably not very hurt since one siege doesn't do much and there was always at least one gorge healing it. With a co-ordinated attack, 1 gorge and some skulks from the back and the rest of us from the front we took the base out and the COM was forced to drop IP's in Marines old base. We took the map, got three hives and babbler rushed them.
Most Marine tactics will work on pubs since it seems that Aliens refuse to accept that tactics and teamwork is at least as vital for them as for Marines. In a good enviroment however, these sort of one-shot strategies usually only earns you the scorn of the opposition. As far as I know there are no un-counterable strategies, but there are strategies that take more teamwork to counter then others.
2 should be enough at first, especially if you intend to siege, because then you dont have to rush in and your mortality rate will be much better. And you can afford to get some easy res nodes while the aliens try to defend their hive.
Make sure to place your mines so the gorges can't try to spit them without putting themselves in the line of fire for your eager trigger happy marines. Preferrably any alien would have to kill at least 1 marine to even get near the mines.
The point is that your marines have to be able to withstand even coordinated alien rushes because marines are SUPPOED to have the upper hand early game. And this strat DOES have plenty of fallback options, if the commander is smart. With the team relocated to southloop/keyhole, the aliens are limited to ONE res node, while the marines can cap nodes in relative peace. Now if your marines are having trouble defending against the skulk attacks, then they obviously need more skill to pull it off against that particular alien teams.
Aliens can used coordination, and so can the marines. The better coordinated team wins.
The point is that your marines have to be able to withstand even coordinated alien rushes because marines are SUPPOED to have the upper hand early game. And this strat DOES have plenty of fallback options, if the commander is smart. With the team relocated to southloop/keyhole, the aliens are limited to ONE res node, while the marines can cap nodes in relative peace. Now if your marines are having trouble defending against the skulk attacks, then they obviously need more skill to pull it off against that particular alien teams.
Aliens can used coordination, and so can the marines. The better coordinated team wins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I completely agree. It's a solid strategy, especially on larger servers.
However, I <i>do</i> object to calling it "a guaranteed victory", and "overpowered". Sure, if the aliens stick to the old "1 gorge, and he should get 1 or 2 RTs and then DCs", they're going to lose horribly. I'm just trying to say there <i>IS</i> a decent way for aliens to fight back. As you said yourself, the better team will win. The marines won't automatically win, just because they use this strategy. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Hmm, reading back, I notice I'm a little bit "This counter will always work" myself. Didn't really mean it that way, sorry. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Those rushes never work. Weld me!!! Need ammo!!! Med!!! Give me a HA/hmg cuz i went to solo and died!!! Go to wp everybody!!! No wp is not in there!!! Stick together!!! *head explodes* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude.... HA/HMG on pub servers is the funnest thing in the WORLD..... just for that reason.... I love being comm.. i get to scream at everyone and be justified. I get to have everyone scream back, med and ammo spam, and slowly, ever so slowly, move into the hive and take it out..... Its like an action movie, with 10x the chaos...... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
of course after that i say SOMEONE ELSE COMM im stressed out..... but god the best times on NS are the pub ha rushes on 2 hive aliens......... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, aliens will hate you, call you cheap, etc. (of course a skulk rush at the beginning is NEVER cheap.)
1. Most aliens are too lazy/unorganized(/stupid?) to counter things properly.
2. NS is really more fun when the aliens win. For both sides.
When marines do something nasty to you, you can really do two things... You can call it cheap and walk away, or you can let them do it again a few more times until you figure out a good counter and then totally crush them. I prefer the second. Beating "cheap" strategies is the most fulfilling thing in ns imho. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That beging said, I make an effort to avoid using them when i comm, I HATE the JP rush with a vengance, because its the most played strategy on pubs theese days, on most maps it requires little or no skill to pull off, and its gatting old being shot from 10 metres up in the air where you cannot possibly get back at the guy who did it.
I've seen games where the marines had JP's before anyone (well except the gorge), had res to lerk. Since we were holed up in refinery, we were toast when 4 jp (2 with shotties) flew into our hive. You can object and say the we could have done this and that to prevent it, but bottom line is that the effort the marines had to put into an iron clad win, was minimal, they had to hold two locations for a few minutes, against vanilla skulks.
Relocating to keyhole when the aliens are in maint, is pretty much the same thing. It's not unwinnable as alien, having done it, I know it's only a question of being a superior team, problem is that the margin by which you have to be better is HUGE.
Oh and I DO beg to differ about jp/hmg rush not taking skill. Try playing against the top clans without any skills or organization and lets see you succeed in your jp/hmg rush. Every clan has had lots of practice countering it.
Starting in refinery? GG. Worst hive ever.