"aggressive Relocation"
Gargamel
Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11773Members
Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11773Members
<div class="IPBDescription">CC & 4 IP outside Hive Strat</div> 1. When are Ali3ns really vulnerable?
Right at start - no upgrades for them, hehe...
2. How to contaminate Ali3n expansion?
Right at start - Kill em all now, so we can drink beers later, hehe...
These must have been the points in which a 9-Member-Team Commander believed in yesterday on ns_nancy...
We started at Hive Port Engine, 5 Marines proceeded outside at auxiliary command,
clearing their path with ease...
Before we could respawn, they had a CC up, together with 4 IPs. Thats it. No Armory, no turrets, no mines, NOTHING. They just spawned like insects, rushing our Hive almost to death, destroyed our RES INSIDE the Hive and kept occupying us. Ater continuous fierce fighting we had our 3 DCs and some OCs up. Didnt help much, Marines were swarming us like there was 20 of them...
Then they started sieging (which I could say wasnt really necessary).
*Pip*Pip*Pip*Pip*...
One lonely Gorgy at subspace trying to get a Hive up...
Game Over Man! Game Over!
You could say teams were uneven... I wouldnt say that.
You could say we should scout better ahead before they start building... We did, we all died.
Instead of camping and trying to get RES-Towers up, the Marine Commander just
showed who the Boss really is... He invested all 100 res on his CC and IPs establishing a Reinforcement Base to CRUSH the Alien infestation right from the start at all costs. And he won...
Congrats to the Comm!
Right at start - no upgrades for them, hehe...
2. How to contaminate Ali3n expansion?
Right at start - Kill em all now, so we can drink beers later, hehe...
These must have been the points in which a 9-Member-Team Commander believed in yesterday on ns_nancy...
We started at Hive Port Engine, 5 Marines proceeded outside at auxiliary command,
clearing their path with ease...
Before we could respawn, they had a CC up, together with 4 IPs. Thats it. No Armory, no turrets, no mines, NOTHING. They just spawned like insects, rushing our Hive almost to death, destroyed our RES INSIDE the Hive and kept occupying us. Ater continuous fierce fighting we had our 3 DCs and some OCs up. Didnt help much, Marines were swarming us like there was 20 of them...
Then they started sieging (which I could say wasnt really necessary).
*Pip*Pip*Pip*Pip*...
One lonely Gorgy at subspace trying to get a Hive up...
Game Over Man! Game Over!
You could say teams were uneven... I wouldnt say that.
You could say we should scout better ahead before they start building... We did, we all died.
Instead of camping and trying to get RES-Towers up, the Marine Commander just
showed who the Boss really is... He invested all 100 res on his CC and IPs establishing a Reinforcement Base to CRUSH the Alien infestation right from the start at all costs. And he won...
Congrats to the Comm!
Comments
If there are so many players, marines will win 90% of those games, no matter what strategy they use.
<b>There is 3 reasons why it is like that:</b>
1. Marines will get res very fast ---> level 3 upgrades really soon
2. The spawning time ---> with 2-3 inf portals marines will spawn much faster than aliens can with one hive
3. Big group of marines is almost impossible to stop at start with no carapace
And relocating outside the hive is pretty lame, just like the jp/hmg rush is at the start of the game.
For example, if aliens starting hive is in mainentance at ns_eclipse. Relocating in keyhole will bring a victory to the marine team for sure. Or if aliens start in subspace hive at ns_nancy, relocate to mother interface and game over. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, many strategies are lame (JP-Rush is the King).
The Server has 18 unreserved slots, public. And again, you re right about the uneven res model of 1.04.
Still the same people on that server loose and win as Aliens only little less than as Marines.
Skulks couldnt organize well as we had always the half Team dead, while Marines spawned much faster.
Their comm just used only few things that are be bad for Aliens in the beginning (no upgrades, no quick spawning).
He could be more lame and start mining everything up... then we probably would have some F4ers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I enjoyed game though, as it was really aggressive and brutal ;D
We rushed out to our WP which was HOLO ROOM.
We didn't know it, but the commander took this chance to build the IPs up in his office area and block the entrance to the lift with 4 Commchairs.
Once we all died, we respawned and found that we had no way to get out and the Kharaa had no way to get in.
It was a team of 8 marines (including Commander), crapped in that space.
We called all the Kharaa to come and free us, but some people kept killing them through the gaps in the chairs.
Game ended in F4 but was a server killer and everyone left after that!
And yes, many strategies are lame (JP-Rush is the King).
The Server has 18 unreserved slots, public. And again, you re right about the uneven res model of 1.04.
Still the same people on that server loose and win as Aliens only little less than as Marines.
Skulks couldnt organize well as we had always the half Team dead, while Marines spawned much faster.
Their comm just used only few things that are be bad for Aliens in the beginning (no upgrades, no quick spawning).
He could be more lame and start mining everything up... then we probably would have some F4ers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I enjoyed game though, as it was really aggressive and brutal ;D <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, well I try to avoid servers that has more than 16 players slot.
There can sometimes be good games on big servers, but it only happens if marines has a noob com. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Then marines will not get upgrades so soon as they could get with a decent commander and that gives a bit better changes to alien team. And when aliens have two hives up and everyone evolves to fade, usually in that point marines are toast.
Theorically HA/hmg team could pretty easily stop those fades, but hey we are talking about public server here. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Those rushes never work. Weld me!!! Need ammo!!! Med!!! Give me a HA/hmg cuz i went to solo and died!!! Go to wp everybody!!! No wp is not in there!!! Stick together!!! *head explodes* <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh well, 2.0 is out soon. Let's see how balanced are those games in big servers then. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Those rushes never work. Weld me!!! Need ammo!!! Med!!! Give me a HA/hmg cuz i went to solo and died!!! Go to wp everybody!!! No wp is not in there!!! Stick together!!! *head explodes* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL! That sounds like 50% of my comm games. Is it really that hard to stick together? At least everyone is usually having fun at that point, even if it's a big stalemate. Unorganized hive 2 aliens vs unorganized high tech marines can be lots of fun...at least until the server starts lagging out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
How to do it effectively?
Works best in large servers (16+ players)
Pick an area a room away from their hive to relocate to, drop at least 4 IPs and an armory, spam mines all over and rush into the hive. If you don't kill them very quickly, send out 1-2 res **** who can freely cap res while the rest of the team keeps them busy, get an adv armory and continue rushing but with HMGs. If an HMGer dies it doesn't make much of a difference because it is such a short walk to the hive and so many marines, someone will pick it up.
Hehe <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> IN WAR THERE ARE NO RULES MUAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
2 ip's shouldbe standard cos it means 2 can respawn every 17 seconds... or with 4 then every 20 seconds you can get 4 marines back active...
i have seen 6 ip's before just for fun... and when you are getting like 6 marines back every 20 seconds.. it is game over lol
with 1 ip if 3 people die. it will take 51 seconds for that 4th guy to get back in as opposed to 20. thats an extra half a minute alot can happen in that tiem <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Probably because 'every' strat is JP ;-)
They do work well when they work though.
For instance keyhole relocation for Maintenance and North Core for Computer Core. You can apply basically constant pressure and have the hive LMGed in ~5-6 minutes if your Marines are good enough to survive without heavy mining.
Of course, no alien team ever has the organisation to do this, so this <i>is</i> an effective strat on most large servers.
The biggest problem usually is to make people understand that they CAN NOT under any circumstances die. The objective is to just let everyone respawn, get 3 DC's and THEN rush out. Until then everyone should stay in the hive, defend, and focus on not dying.
This is because 1.04 is unbalanced. The only way there can be a game where both teams have a chance for a while is if both teams are unorganized. If only one team is organized, they should win. If both teams are organized, then the marines have multiple early game strategies that the aliens are too weak to counter. (This is kind of a separate issue, but the reason people always use d chambers first is because skulks are almost useless without cara). The aliens just sit there and wait to lose because they have no chance of winning, and this makes for lame games. The problem isn't people's perspective, it is with 1.04. 2.0 will have stronger vanilla skulks and nerfed jp's (both necessary imo), so these should be significantly reduced.
The most unbalanced part is the res system which mean sthat small games are easy for aliens, large are easy for marines.
If you play on an organised server with good players you will see every Marine tactic countered and vice versa. Don't apply your own experiences as a universal law. It's just that people are too lazy/stupid/content to whine. There is not a single Marine Strat that, performed by a good Marine team, that I haven't seen countered.
It's just that it's easier to sit around and whine about the game being broken then trying to figure out a way to beat your opponent. That's the general mentality of people.
I think the greatest problem that arrises here is that the Aliens get locked down in their own Hive. Gorges can hardly cap any res towers and if so, they ll probably get wasted. Until 3 DCs are up, Marines control most of the map and get plenty of res. If ever the Alien team can push Marines on the defensive, they ll have to soon face HA/JP, and without any expansion made, 2nd Hive will never grow...
In the end all comes down to the aggressiveness issue.
Most comms (including me) try to get some res towers up and protect them till they have some cash to spend. But now I m starting to think the best way is to just keep attacking, killing gorges and keep Aliens occupied on their own ground, while Marine base stays peaceful and res towers sit there without getting attacked. And not attacking uncarapaced skulks/undefended Hives is really a wasted chance for Marines...
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> LEts M0vE!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's just that it's easier to sit around and whine about the game being broken then trying to figure out a way to beat your opponent. That's the general mentality of people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me respond to that with this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't apply your own experiences as a universal law<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hehe. Seriously though saying people are whiney isn't a real argument, it's an ad hominum you aren't attacking the idea you are attacking the person, which proves nothing. While I don't think marines are ridiculously nerfed, they do have more 'foolproof' or as close as you can get to that strategies than the aliens. Couple that with the fact that on pretty much ever server save Voogru marines are number stacked... than yes, in pubs I'd say marines do have at least a minimal starting advantage. Of course skill counters that, but in pubbing between strangers of average skill level, I'd always put my money on marines.
Man I used some nice alliteration in this post. Someone gimme a pat on the back.
Fine don't then.
If there is a 'foolproof' strategy I have a challenge for you:
Join a server, the CoFR FR31 NS one for example. State clearlyto the Aliens what strategy you are going to attempt to win with and stick to it.
If you win I'll consider your argument. Good luck <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ps. The comment about whining isn't an argument, it's an explanation of why that oarticular argument is so common, and to an extent unfortunately commonly accepted.
1. Saving for a single DC each, with 3 gorges and 6 skulks: 2 minutes. Break out one of those simulator thingies if you want. Less if there are many dead skulks, obviously, which there probably will be. Not really all that long.
2. Didn't the marines spend all their resources on a CC and 4 IPs? Did they cap a single res node? No... They won't be able to afford a siege... Siege costs 70 in total, so you're looking at around 3 minutes of saving with 1 res node on a 9-man team. If a single skulk managed to get out and take the time to eat the starting res node, you're looking at an eternity of saving.
A single siege cannon has about the same damage output over time as two unupgraded marines who spawn and rush constantly. 350 damage every 5 seconds really isn't all that much, it can <i>easily</i> be healed up against, especially with 3 gorges doing nothing but healing. Want another cannon? You're looking at another minute of saving. You're probably dead by then, but ah well.
Also, where did you suddenly get resources for an <i>armory</i> and <i>mines</i> for?? Armory and, say, just two packs of mines? That's another 41 res that you just don't have. Two minutes of saving, buddy. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
hive was maint, i relocated to keyhole, built cc/4 ips, marine start res was getting chomped so i recycled, told my marines that if they wanted more ammo, they should kill themselves...
it was looking good for a while, we managed to kill all aliens...there was only one alive at a time for a while
a few problems i ran into were running low on res, expecially after recycling the start res...i eventually got enough to build at horseshoe, but took quite a while...i managed to get a tf up, but could not upgrade before we got wiped out
it requires an organised rush of all skulks on the team (this was an 8v8 match) to combat this...but yeah, the drawback was simply the res flow compared to the alien spawn time, but i enjoyed doing this and can now see it is very plausible
it requires a VERY disciplined marine team-a lot of mine seemed to wander too far from base
and a lot of my team were very skeptical, i.e. "OMG GG COMM 4 IPS", "OMG NOOB COMM< EJECT!", etc..
others conceded it was a very good attempt
this strat needs to be executed very quickly in order to work..
another thing is that the gorge spent 28 res on 2 x oc's very early in the game, which meant we had xtra time to spare before they got any upgrades
but yes, i'm willing to give it another go given the right circumstances... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe it would be a good idea to cap horseshoe (and even southloop) right from start, build only 2(1) ip then get the other ips next. On a 8v8 server would take not much time if marines just hold the exits of maint.
1 res at least is a must, 2 res are better and 3 res you win <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, without any res tower, you ll get overrun as soon aliens get their DCs up... You ll wait forever to only be able to build 1 res tower :/
If the aliens manage to take out the marines in one big counter rush when there are mines and 3-4 ips and people constantly coming from the area, then good for them, but I wouldn't count on it working on any decent marine team.
This is just another one of those overpowered strategies of 1.04
Allow me to change mine too then. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Instead of 3 gorges, get 5. Let the marines try to come in for the first push, so you can kill some of them. Marines built only one IP and have, what, 10, 15, mines? Spit those. 2 Gorges spitting while dodging as much as they can, 3 gorges healing those spitter gorges. Skulks should stay clear of the mines, but be ready to eat any marines who rush the gorges. Mines gone, rush in and mop up any living marines, then go straight for the ip. By getting only one IP, you've left yourself more vulnerable to attack, and aliens can get quite a powerful fighter/healer for 13 res.
Again, no alien team will actually have the coordination to pull this off this quickly, so it probably works anyway 95% of the time. I'd love to see you pull this off three times in a row on the same aliens on a good open-minded server, however.
Well as always, a good comm should be (and needs to be) flexible. If the comm sees 5 gorges, then again, he should change his tactics accordingly. A few shotties should take care of the gorges if they stray too close (remember no carapace yet. With 5 gorges the res will be REALLY slow) If I were the comm I'd immediately grab lots of res, and build turrets while waiting for seige. With 5 gorges can you still get 3 DCs up in 2 minutes? I don't think so. With a few turrets, a few shotties, and mines being replaced if they are blown up, the marines should have a good chance of surviving until seige. Then the comm drops like 3 of them, and then hive goes boom.
The point is that, when the marines relocate outside of your hive, they still have ALL of their normal teching options open, plus the option of spawn camping, plus being defensive and seiging. This means the marines are in a MUCH better position than they were in, due to marine superiority in early game. If my marines can't handle an alien rush during the first 5 minutes into the game, then they seriously suck or are just simply out-skilled. Shotties=insta-gib gun early game.
5 gorges as opposed to 3 cuts the resource share by about 1/5 on a 9-man team (19 shares getting distributed, instead of 15), so that's gonna be 3 Ds and 2 Os up after 2.5 minutes, or maybe 3 Ds inside the hive and 2 more Ds as close as possible to the fighting. Or if the aliens wanna go crazy, 5 Ds right next to the fighting. If the marines survive that long with 1 IP, that is.
If good openminded aliens see you setting up one IP and some mines outside the hive, they're gonna get a crapload of gorges, and they're gonna rush you together, <i>before</i> you can get anything else up. Sure, it's gonna take them a while to get organised, and they'd probably be too late, but I just refuse to accept the idea of an overpowered uncounterable strat. If a strategy like this turns into a trend, the aliens <i>are</i> going to catch on after a while.
By the way, I can, personally, blow up mines with about 80% accuracy, eats through mines pretty quickly if you can get a clear shot. It's just a matter of knowing where to aim. A good rule of thumb: If the mine is on the floor on the same level as you, shoot exactly level with the floor and you'll hit it 99% of the time.