Comments: Space Crusade (basic) : the dread was soft enough if you tooled up your sarge for close combat and melta-bombed it.
Space Hulk: If you liked the indoors claustrophobic feel of this game, see if you can get a hold of the now out-of-print "Legions of Steel" Boxed game. It's a total blast, my favourite game of this sort ever <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
RPGS: I'd check out GURPS or Fudge, both designed for adapting to your desired universe and/or style. GURPS is more detailed, Fudge is more oriented to quick-play freeform stuff (maybe not the style for gritty combat, heh.)
Fudge is here: <a href='http://www.fudgerpg.com/' target='_blank'>Fudge</a>. Lots of free stuff, the rules are free also.
GURPS is here: <a href='http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/' target='_blank'>GURPS</a>. Not much free stuff, but tighter game mechanics.
Starslayer, a sci-fi wargame is designed to be adapted to your desired army and setting, is here: <a href='http://www.mj12games.com/' target='_blank'>Majestic Twelve Games</a>, follow the links for a free set of basic rules (to try before you buy)
well im guessing this should go in off-topic :\ but it is fine here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> one of my clan members was making a tabletop NS and got really far.. i cant remember where that post went tho... cant wait tho
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Try the Space Hulk 2nd Ed ruleset. Perfect.
Incidentally, I worked for GW for nearly 5 years! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I love this thread. Board games are still my preferred method of multiplayer gaming (even if I do spend more time playing NS)!
Anyway, just so you've got a reference if you know nothing about any of these games:
Space Crusade: <a href='http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=1568' target='_blank'>http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=1568</a> Space Hulk: <a href='http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=2163' target='_blank'>http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=2163</a>
BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER:
I read Mordheim's rules mentioned in one of the posts, and I think it'd be wise to pick up a copy of Necromunda if you're going to go that route. Necro is a tad closer in design to the aliens vs. human battle than Mordheim. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Still, squad based combat is the way to go for this game.
Shadowrun would be optimal. I have a very workable errata for the autofire rules which allows you to hit with SOME of your spray and not ALL (Basically: Roll your dice. Now line up your successes in order, and you begin slicing off bullets as if they've never been fired. When you get down to the bullet where you begin to get successes, THEN you work from there, with that many bullets)
Example: A goon is autofiring his AK at Jow. The initial target number is 4. He has no recoil compensation. Thus, the second round is subject to a +1 recoil mod. The third round is at a further +1, or a total of +2 from the base target number. Thus, to hit with all ten rounds, the goon needs a 4 + 9 = 13. It's normal so far. The goon opens up, rolling 6 dice, and getting a 1,3,4,4,5,10. Under normal SR3 rules, this would be a miss.
However, where did the first few rounds go? Recoil hadn't affected them yet. Aaahh, but the goon got a 10, which would be the result of 7 (1 free bullet with no recoil, plus six more at +1 each) rounds of recoil. Thus, instead of missing completely, the goon hits with an incomplete burst of 7 rounds, with three stray rounds ripping through the nearby crowd of innocent bystanders.
But what if the target had dodged? In such a case, you take off one of the shooter's successes for each of the target's dodge successes STARTING FROM THE HIGHEST. Thus, if the target got a single dodge success, the goon would have been left with a 1,3,4,4,5. The five hits with only two rounds, so the power level of the attack drops from 15D to 10M. Good for the dodger. If the target got 2 dodge successes, the goon would have lost both the 10 and the 5, leaving the two fours. Note that in this case, the goon has two successes, which is enough to stage the damage up, even though he only hits with a single bullet. Thus, the target takes 9S. Whoops.
It'd work nicely.
Anyway, shadowrun has it all: Excellent melee rules, lots of gunplay, and good, adaptable rules to fit any situation.
Though why a table-top game? Costs too much money, few people actaully play, takes a lot of space, and way too much time commitment...
I must be some kinda loser because I have read all of this and I still don't know what its going to be? A card game, board game? I am so very lost?
What the heck is a tabletop game? I know what its means .. I think. (a game that is played on a table)? I am so confused <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I must be some kinda loser because I have read all of this and I still don't know what its going to be? A card game, board game? I am so very lost?
What the heck is a tabletop game? I know what its means .. I think. (a game that is played on a table)? I am so confused <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A tabletop game is just that, played on the table.
Warhammer 40k is a game that plays a lot like army. You set up all your men on the table and pretend they shoot each other. Except, unlike army there are complicated rules for cover, chances to hit, taking damage, throwing grenades, getting run over by jeeps and hovertanks, flying units, bikes, bipedal, tripedal, quadraped mounts.
Anyway, it's soldiers fighting, without a board but governed by the rules of the game.
Believe me, the losers are the us folks who said "OMG! An adaptation of W40K for NS would rock. I hope they use xxxxxx, my favorite rules."
I could use my Dark Angel army as is. They have the same colors and logo as the TSA. I could use my Terminator squad as HA. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I could use my Dark Angel army as is. They have the same colors and logo as the TSA. I could use my Terminator squad as HA. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Case in point. Loser!
May I suggest you use a decent set of rules to start with? Warhammer 40k has got to be one of the worst tabletop miniature rule sets I've ever had the misfortune of playing. If you don't agree, then you certainly havent' had experience with anything else.
actually 3 other people attempted at creating tabletop NS... i believe it is in artwork or offtopic so search for tabletop.... a few topics shouold pop up w/ some cool ideas <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Holy crap breathstealer! A bump is a couple days if it falls of the front page. You freaking resurectted the topic from the 2 month old grave. Jesus man! :-P
Anyway, tabletops are by nature visual games. Seeing huge armies face off on the battlefeild. Its not cool to keep track of your guys on paper and only put them on the table when the other player reveals his hidden dudes. How would you know when to reveal each of them?
"Not that I have guys near here, but are any of your hidden guys near that?" You'd needa GM type, which would bog down the whole game.
I've been wanting to try my hand at designing for tabletop for quite awhile now. There are some really cool things to try with real pieces and people around a table.
<a href='http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/' target='_blank'>MechWarrior: Dark Age</a> is incredibly cool, maybe we can convince Jordan to do something for us? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Sep 19 2003, 02:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Sep 19 2003, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> May I suggest you use a decent set of rules to start with? Warhammer 40k has got to be one of the worst tabletop miniature rule sets I've ever had the misfortune of playing. If you don't agree, then you certainly havent' had experience with anything else. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to get into a wargaming debate, but they're not the "worst" as such...merely the most beginner friendly.
Not that I much care for 40k in a "realistic" war simulation sense anyway...it's just a chance for a bit of strategy and a lot of fun. For NS I'd imagine the tabletop conversion would do very good to start from 40k and adapt it. Starting from a more complicated system and changing it to match is a lot harder. Believe me, I've tried. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Great idea, but when i think of this all i see is the Tyranids for some reason
But i like the idea, and id luv to create a "veil" table top or "nothing" table top, this idea rocks. Never saw how it would work before but i think that the table tops would have to be big, and would take a while getting all of the levels right if ya wanted that for realism.
The cloaked units etc could just be tokens that the Khaara player reveals if decloaked, otherwise itd just be a token that generally isnt noticed unless its moved, being that it wouldnt be raised.
[EDIT]
OOH!!!!!!!1 i just thought of something! If you do this you could create different characters to represent alien vs alien or marine vs marine!!!! Think about it, weve waited for ages but its proving difficult for flayra to prog it. Just use a different race like tyranid from 40k and its done! Corporate troops defending their bio weapons research while the TSA try to quarantine and destroy the experiments <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
To tell you the truth, in preparation for my next D&D campaign I thought it would be interesting to construct a "space alien race" by using the D20 system in conjunction with D&D 3ed rules. (Mmmm space aliens and swords....I like swords)
It was quite similar to the aliens of NS....in fact it mirrored them near perfectly. The only real difference was that these aliens were given telepathy as a means of speech to other creatures. No doubt an evolved trait once they found creatures that were not struggling to take their food source (Nano sludge created continuously by the remains of a mysterious craft that crashed on the world years ago.).
I'd throw it up here but I don't have a linkable copy online yet, and the rules for the race are about 10 pages long. (Could be shorter)
Just can't wait for my PCs to stumble upon this wreck. encounter roll = 100 on a D100
I am still confused as to how this will work, I guess I would have to play it to understand. I get its like RISK (kinda) you have armies and they kill eachother and other cool stuff.
You guys must be losers or I must be, cause I have never heard of these things before and I like to think of my self as an immature 20 something year old.
omg 20 years old and have never heard of warhammer? im 14 and ive heard of it for years <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 19 2003, 02:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 19 2003, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You guys must be losers or I must be, cause I have never heard of these things before and I like to think of my self as an immature 20 something year old. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wish people would stop bandying around the term losers in such threads.
And for your information it's a turn based strategy game, and you can find out about it <a href='http://www.gamesworkshop.com/' target='_blank'>here</a>
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been wanting to try my hand at designing for tabletop for quite awhile now. There are some really cool things to try with real pieces and people around a table.
MechWarrior: Dark Age is incredibly cool, maybe we can convince Jordan to do something for us? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ack, disagreeing with Flayra = Punishment by death.
Mechwarrior : Dark Age is such a let down for the existing Battletech players. It's just not a patch on the original game. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
TBH I'd use the Necromunda rules, since they cover mini squad gameplay far better than the standard 40k set.
Second, you all need to buy Advanced Space Crusade (renamed Tyranid Attack) because it will introduce you to the whole reinforcement concept.
Mash the two together and you'd have something akin to NS (although you'd need a box of Space Hulk, Genestealer, and Deathwing in order to have enough terrain pieces to make it interesting).
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 19 2003, 08:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 19 2003, 08:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am still confused as to how this will work, I guess I would have to play it to understand. I get its like RISK (kinda) you have armies and they kill eachother and other cool stuff.
You guys must be losers or I must be, cause I have never heard of these things before and I like to think of my self as an immature 20 something year old. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Warhammer... you get a LOT OF CASH (And I mean a LOT. I took one look at a box of 8 unpainted pewter minis and practically passed out. You thought pen and paper rule books were expensive? HA! $75 for a rule book, a dozen or so minis, and some plastic obstacles... and a pack of 8-10 minis costs more then some complete pen and paper rules systems...), and a LOT OF TIME (If you want to painstakingly detail every single character), and get a LOT OF SPACE (You need a huge-**** table that isn't just a wussy card table to play on, something big a sturdy) and you set up this huge (or not huge...) complex set, then you need to find one of the twelve people in your town who actually PLAYS this game, and then you send the next 4 hours playing a much more complex form of Risk.
Lame... I had to watch people play it... like 4 games total. It might have been marginally interesting, but watching these geeks (No offense) giggle with excitement when they got to move their pewter figurine two inches behind a paper rock really made it almost sad. All I could do is shake my head and realize how stupid it is to spend so much time and money on the exact same thing that comes in most computer games...
Then again, I think Risk is a stupid piece of crap game... maybe that's why...
Yer i agree with ya there, ur now getting les minis for more cash and it is getting VERY expensive to use now, but such is the cost of progress i suppose. The big table comment, ive already said that to get an entire ns map or even a scenario, it would have to be fairly large, but i reckon that i could construct it, but couldnt be bothered painting it :/
Everyones entitled to an opinion though.
As for paper rocks etc, what else are ya gonna use?? U cant tell me that a REAL rock would do the same thing <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> could it?
<a href='http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=Necromunda' target='_blank'>Necromunda</a> - not quite so cheap, as its newer.
Get all these. Mix well. It'll also get you a ton of models.
"I took one look at a box of 8 unpainted pewter minis and practically passed out"
Depends which box. Depends which model. TBH you only need plastic IG if you intend to model TSA Frontiersmen, and plastics are dirt cheap compared to the white metal figures (they're not pewter).
" and a LOT OF TIME (If you want to painstakingly detail every single character),"
Depends how bad a painter you are. I can knock out a regiment of 20 men inside of an hour. Inside of half an hour if I push it. And all with no loss of detail.
"get a LOT OF SPACE (You need a huge-**** table that isn't just a wussy card table to play on, something big a sturdy) and you set up this huge (or not huge...) complex set, then you need to find one of the twelve people in your town who actually PLAYS this game, and then you send the next 4 hours playing a much more complex form of Risk."
Rubbish. You don't need a lot of space, and for the space hulk/space crusade/necromunda style games you can use even less space still. Secondly, the games don't last 4 hours - certainly not the small scale games and certainly NOT the newest edition of either 40k or Fantasy, unless you play like a snail.
TBH if you can't grasp the artistic joy of painting and modelling, not to mention the strategic aspect of executing a battleplan, then you'll never enjoy any Warhammer stuff. That doesn't mean you're uncultured, or intellectually challenged, it just means you apparently don't see the beauty in creating mini works of art, or the precision of a well executed strategem.
Scenery comes with the packs I've listed - its of the easily photocopied and reproduced 2d cardboard variety. It's dirt cheap to pick up now and the rules system is more suited to small scale play that the larger 40k system.
At most I'd expect you to shell out a little for making Frontiersmen from IG and green stuff. As for Kharaa... you could convert genestealers to fades if need be.... Onos could be replaced by a carnifex or zoat, skulks switch with termagants/hunter slayers, lerks with gargoyles, and gorges with something you'd have to make up yourself.
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> I reckon that u could use the Tyranids as a lesser species or diferent strain of Khaara for alien VS alien games. I reckon itd ad a little variety to the bog standard marine vs alien as it can create more scenarios. Still waiting for alien vs alien/rine vs rine flaarya
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All I could do is shake my head and realize how stupid it is to spend so much time and money on the exact same thing that comes in most computer games...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Few notes here.
First, networked computers games have only recently reached the point where they could compare, in visual quality and rules complexity, with tabletop games. Tabletop games have owned multiplayer gaming since the first tribesmen started playing mancala with seeds and pebbles.
Second, tabletop gaming is an inherently social activity. Except for a few hard-core geeks, most people play games with friends, with whom they share a significant amount of real-world context. Conversely, except for a few hard-core clanners, most people play computer games with total strangers. This creates a very sparse shared context, and insures the interaction between players is fairly limited and usually game-related.
Third, computers are really good at taking a consistent set of rules and automating them. If you throw a few rules-mutating events into the mix, the developer has to write (and test) gobs of logic to handle weird edge cases that arise from unexpected rule interactions. This is always going to limit the type of games you can model with a computer. I challenge anyone to write a computer version of Nomic.
Finally, tabletop games are (well, should be) cheap and portable. They should require no special equipment, no hulking manuals, and no batteries or cables. This allows tabletop gaming to happen in any number of situations where computer gaming would be clumsy and overly complex.
All that said, I still think WH40K is lame. Like Advanced Squad Leader, it's what happens when you let the hardcore player base define the game; you get a game that's baroque, self-referential, inaccessible to new players, and only playable with gobs of specialized gear.
Comments
Space Hulk: If you liked the indoors claustrophobic feel of this game, see if you can get a hold of the now out-of-print "Legions of Steel" Boxed game. It's a total blast, my favourite game of this sort ever <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
RPGS: I'd check out GURPS or Fudge, both designed for adapting to your desired universe and/or style. GURPS is more detailed, Fudge is more oriented to quick-play freeform stuff (maybe not the style for gritty combat, heh.)
Fudge is here: <a href='http://www.fudgerpg.com/' target='_blank'>Fudge</a>. Lots of free stuff, the rules are free also.
GURPS is here: <a href='http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/' target='_blank'>GURPS</a>. Not much free stuff, but tighter game mechanics.
Starslayer, a sci-fi wargame is designed to be adapted to your desired army and setting, is here: <a href='http://www.mj12games.com/' target='_blank'>Majestic Twelve Games</a>, follow the links for a free set of basic rules (to try before you buy)
<a href='http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/' target='_blank'>http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/</a>
so no $$$$ to spend.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Incidentally, I worked for GW for nearly 5 years! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, just so you've got a reference if you know nothing about any of these games:
Space Crusade: <a href='http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=1568' target='_blank'>http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=1568</a>
Space Hulk: <a href='http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=2163' target='_blank'>http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=2163</a>
BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER:
I read Mordheim's rules mentioned in one of the posts, and I think it'd be wise to pick up a copy of Necromunda if you're going to go that route. Necro is a tad closer in design to the aliens vs. human battle than Mordheim. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Still, squad based combat is the way to go for this game.
Example: A goon is autofiring his AK at Jow. The initial target number is 4. He has no recoil compensation. Thus, the second round is subject to a +1 recoil mod. The third round is at a further +1, or a total of +2 from the base target number. Thus, to hit with all ten rounds, the goon needs a 4 + 9 = 13. It's normal so far. The goon opens up, rolling 6 dice, and getting a 1,3,4,4,5,10. Under normal SR3 rules, this would be a miss.
However, where did the first few rounds go? Recoil hadn't affected them yet. Aaahh, but the goon got a 10, which would be the result of 7 (1 free bullet with no recoil, plus six more at +1 each) rounds of recoil. Thus, instead of missing completely, the goon hits with an incomplete burst of 7 rounds, with three stray rounds ripping through the nearby crowd of innocent bystanders.
But what if the target had dodged? In such a case, you take off one of the shooter's successes for each of the target's dodge successes STARTING FROM THE HIGHEST. Thus, if the target got a single dodge success, the goon would have been left with a 1,3,4,4,5. The five hits with only two rounds, so the power level of the attack drops from 15D to 10M. Good for the dodger. If the target got 2 dodge successes, the goon would have lost both the 10 and the 5, leaving the two fours. Note that in this case, the goon has two successes, which is enough to stage the damage up, even though he only hits with a single bullet. Thus, the target takes 9S. Whoops.
It'd work nicely.
Anyway, shadowrun has it all: Excellent melee rules, lots of gunplay, and good, adaptable rules to fit any situation.
Though why a table-top game? Costs too much money, few people actaully play, takes a lot of space, and way too much time commitment...
I must be some kinda loser because I have read all of this and I still don't know what its going to be?
A card game, board game?
I am so very lost?
What the heck is a tabletop game?
I know what its means .. I think. (a game that is played on a table)?
I am so confused <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I must be some kinda loser because I have read all of this and I still don't know what its going to be?
A card game, board game?
I am so very lost?
What the heck is a tabletop game?
I know what its means .. I think. (a game that is played on a table)?
I am so confused <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A tabletop game is just that, played on the table.
Warhammer 40k is a game that plays a lot like army. You set up all your men on the table and pretend they shoot each other. Except, unlike army there are complicated rules for cover, chances to hit, taking damage, throwing grenades, getting run over by jeeps and hovertanks, flying units, bikes, bipedal, tripedal, quadraped mounts.
Anyway, it's soldiers fighting, without a board but governed by the rules of the game.
Believe me, the losers are the us folks who said "OMG! An adaptation of W40K for NS would rock. I hope they use xxxxxx, my favorite rules."
I could use my Dark Angel army as is. They have the same colors and logo as the TSA. I could use my Terminator squad as HA. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I could use my Dark Angel army as is. They have the same colors and logo as the TSA. I could use my Terminator squad as HA. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Case in point. Loser!
;-)
A bump is a couple days if it falls of the front page.
You freaking resurectted the topic from the 2 month old grave. Jesus man! :-P
Anyway, tabletops are by nature visual games. Seeing huge armies face off on the battlefeild. Its not cool to keep track of your guys on paper and only put them on the table when the other player reveals his hidden dudes. How would you know when to reveal each of them?
"Not that I have guys near here, but are any of your hidden guys near that?" You'd needa GM type, which would bog down the whole game.
<a href='http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/' target='_blank'>MechWarrior: Dark Age</a> is incredibly cool, maybe we can convince Jordan to do something for us? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not to get into a wargaming debate, but they're not the "worst" as such...merely the most beginner friendly.
Not that I much care for 40k in a "realistic" war simulation sense anyway...it's just a chance for a bit of strategy and a lot of fun. For NS I'd imagine the tabletop conversion would do very good to start from 40k and adapt it. Starting from a more complicated system and changing it to match is a lot harder. Believe me, I've tried. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
But i like the idea, and id luv to create a "veil" table top or "nothing" table top, this idea rocks. Never saw how it would work before but i think that the table tops would have to be big, and would take a while getting all of the levels right if ya wanted that for realism.
The cloaked units etc could just be tokens that the Khaara player reveals if decloaked, otherwise itd just be a token that generally isnt noticed unless its moved, being that it wouldnt be raised.
[EDIT]
OOH!!!!!!!1 i just thought of something! If you do this you could create different characters to represent alien vs alien or marine vs marine!!!! Think about it, weve waited for ages but its proving difficult for flayra to prog it. Just use a different race like tyranid from 40k and its done! Corporate troops defending their bio weapons research while the TSA try to quarantine and destroy the experiments <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
It was quite similar to the aliens of NS....in fact it mirrored them near perfectly. The only real difference was that these aliens were given telepathy as a means of speech to other creatures. No doubt an evolved trait once they found creatures that were not struggling to take their food source (Nano sludge created continuously by the remains of a mysterious craft that crashed on the world years ago.).
I'd throw it up here but I don't have a linkable copy online yet, and the rules for the race are about 10 pages long. (Could be shorter)
Just can't wait for my PCs to stumble upon this wreck. encounter roll = 100 on a D100
Sounds like Never Winter Nights.
I get its like RISK (kinda) you have armies and they kill eachother and other cool stuff.
You guys must be losers or I must be, cause I have never heard of these things before and I like to think of my self as an immature 20 something year old.
I wish people would stop bandying around the term losers in such threads.
And for your information it's a turn based strategy game, and you can find out about it <a href='http://www.gamesworkshop.com/' target='_blank'>here</a>
-Lee
MechWarrior: Dark Age is incredibly cool, maybe we can convince Jordan to do something for us? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ack, disagreeing with Flayra = Punishment by death.
Mechwarrior : Dark Age is such a let down for the existing Battletech players. It's just not a patch on the original game. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Second, you all need to buy Advanced Space Crusade (renamed Tyranid Attack) because it will introduce you to the whole reinforcement concept.
Mash the two together and you'd have something akin to NS (although you'd need a box of Space Hulk, Genestealer, and Deathwing in order to have enough terrain pieces to make it interesting).
I get its like RISK (kinda) you have armies and they kill eachother and other cool stuff.
You guys must be losers or I must be, cause I have never heard of these things before and I like to think of my self as an immature 20 something year old. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Warhammer... you get a LOT OF CASH (And I mean a LOT. I took one look at a box of 8 unpainted pewter minis and practically passed out. You thought pen and paper rule books were expensive? HA! $75 for a rule book, a dozen or so minis, and some plastic obstacles... and a pack of 8-10 minis costs more then some complete pen and paper rules systems...), and a LOT OF TIME (If you want to painstakingly detail every single character), and get a LOT OF SPACE (You need a huge-**** table that isn't just a wussy card table to play on, something big a sturdy) and you set up this huge (or not huge...) complex set, then you need to find one of the twelve people in your town who actually PLAYS this game, and then you send the next 4 hours playing a much more complex form of Risk.
Lame... I had to watch people play it... like 4 games total. It might have been marginally interesting, but watching these geeks (No offense) giggle with excitement when they got to move their pewter figurine two inches behind a paper rock really made it almost sad. All I could do is shake my head and realize how stupid it is to spend so much time and money on the exact same thing that comes in most computer games...
Then again, I think Risk is a stupid piece of crap game... maybe that's why...
Everyones entitled to an opinion though.
As for paper rocks etc, what else are ya gonna use?? U cant tell me that a REAL rock would do the same thing <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> could it?
<a href='http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3146316523&category=31400' target='_blank'>Tyranid Attack</a>. AKA Advanced Space Crusade.
<a href='http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=space+hulk&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&BasicSearch=' target='_blank'>Space Hulk</a>, <a href='http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=deathwing&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&BasicSearch=' target='_blank'>Deathwing</a>, <a href='http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=genestealer&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&BasicSearch=' target='_blank'>Genestealer</a>
All relatively cheap.
<a href='http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=Necromunda' target='_blank'>Necromunda</a> - not quite so cheap, as its newer.
Get all these. Mix well. It'll also get you a ton of models.
"I took one look at a box of 8 unpainted pewter minis and practically passed out"
Depends which box. Depends which model. TBH you only need plastic IG if you intend to model TSA Frontiersmen, and plastics are dirt cheap compared to the white metal figures (they're not pewter).
" and a LOT OF TIME (If you want to painstakingly detail every single character),"
Depends how bad a painter you are. I can knock out a regiment of 20 men inside of an hour. Inside of half an hour if I push it. And all with no loss of detail.
"get a LOT OF SPACE (You need a huge-**** table that isn't just a wussy card table to play on, something big a sturdy) and you set up this huge (or not huge...) complex set, then you need to find one of the twelve people in your town who actually PLAYS this game, and then you send the next 4 hours playing a much more complex form of Risk."
Rubbish. You don't need a lot of space, and for the space hulk/space crusade/necromunda style games you can use even less space still. Secondly, the games don't last 4 hours - certainly not the small scale games and certainly NOT the newest edition of either 40k or Fantasy, unless you play like a snail.
TBH if you can't grasp the artistic joy of painting and modelling, not to mention the strategic aspect of executing a battleplan, then you'll never enjoy any Warhammer stuff. That doesn't mean you're uncultured, or intellectually challenged, it just means you apparently don't see the beauty in creating mini works of art, or the precision of a well executed strategem.
Scenery comes with the packs I've listed - its of the easily photocopied and reproduced 2d cardboard variety. It's dirt cheap to pick up now and the rules system is more suited to small scale play that the larger 40k system.
At most I'd expect you to shell out a little for making Frontiersmen from IG and green stuff. As for Kharaa... you could convert genestealers to fades if need be.... Onos could be replaced by a carnifex or zoat, skulks switch with termagants/hunter slayers, lerks with gargoyles, and gorges with something you'd have to make up yourself.
The only thing limiting you is your imagination.
Few notes here.
First, networked computers games have only recently reached the point where they could compare, in visual quality and rules complexity, with tabletop games. Tabletop games have owned multiplayer gaming since the first tribesmen started playing mancala with seeds and pebbles.
Second, tabletop gaming is an inherently social activity. Except for a few hard-core geeks, most people play games with friends, with whom they share a significant amount of real-world context. Conversely, except for a few hard-core clanners, most people play computer games with total strangers. This creates a very sparse shared context, and insures the interaction between players is fairly limited and usually game-related.
Third, computers are really good at taking a consistent set of rules and automating them. If you throw a few rules-mutating events into the mix, the developer has to write (and test) gobs of logic to handle weird edge cases that arise from unexpected rule interactions. This is always going to limit the type of games you can model with a computer. I challenge anyone to write a computer version of Nomic.
Finally, tabletop games are (well, should be) cheap and portable. They should require no special equipment, no hulking manuals, and no batteries or cables. This allows tabletop gaming to happen in any number of situations where computer gaming would be clumsy and overly complex.
All that said, I still think WH40K is lame. Like Advanced Squad Leader, it's what happens when you let the hardcore player base define the game; you get a game that's baroque, self-referential, inaccessible to new players, and only playable with gobs of specialized gear.