<!--QuoteBegin--eaglec+Jun 25 2003, 04:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eaglec @ Jun 25 2003, 04:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> exploit is definately bannable but that isn't what we are talking about..
scripts... hmmm... grey area but I always use the 1 action rule.
If your button changes to another weapon then thats ok, if the button also then re binds itself then that's ok. If it changes to a weapon attacks and changes back thats getting pretty grey and I would disaprove on the basis that every other muppet has to do it properly. Very hard for the admin to spot though.
A script that does changeweapon>leap>changeweapon>bite is a definate NO. As is the jump>duck>blink>slash script. Such scripting would deserve a warn;kick;ban script from the admin. I might go as far as to include the 8 round lmg burst script except that it does more to hinder the user than the target <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I really think he got the point.
tbh, its cheating, although not using a program, obviously <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
the entire idea of using a script defeats the point of playing to use your skill...press one button and it does it? well thats pointless. its gaining an advantage that others will nmot exploit
pistol scripts are just as bad too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i see no problem with having a bind to, as an example, request a med-pack throu8gh impule and text, as you are just clarifying, or using a bind to place a particular structure, this is time saving (i.e. u dnt have to select menu or building) but if u use hud_fastswitch 1 and have reasonable skill then you can be better than any script
changeweapon>leap>changeweapon>bite sounds more like a limitation. Moreover, cookie sounds like he's using only the first three commands of the clause.
It's their server, though, so can't really help you with that.
I started a same topic way back and it got locked <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> But I consider anything cheating that's not ready made in the game (lastinv IS, fastswitch isnt cheating either IMHO) but writing custom scripts to do stuff like that gives you an advantage over people NOT using it meaning it gives an unfair advantage. So I say:
Clarification of my single-handed-hl-operation: I have a 5 buttoned mouse, so mouse1= Fire mouse2 = moveforwards mouse3 = reload mouse4 = strafeleft mouse5 = straferight regular mouse movement = look
This got confusing after a while, current config for mouse as alien: mouse1 = fire mouse2 = moveforwards mouse3 = say_team location mouse4 = use mouse5 = flashlight mousewheelup = slot3 mousewheeldown = slot1
I'm with the argument that keybinds are not cheats/exploits, excepting a few that are ott - such as the pistol to mousewheel bind thing.
I don't think binding a key to simply select slot 3, fire, then slect slot 1 ready to bite again is a cheat, all it does is reduce the number of keystrokes needed, or freeing other keys for other jobs.
I have a multi-binder script some might consider an exploit - all it does is cycle between different keyboard/mouse configs at the touch of a button, meaning I can have a fully adaptive system instead of messing around. It also alows for a lot of flexibility.
I used to use a buyscript in cs, which I thaught was fair as it is a pain to continually press the same keys again and again and again. It made little or no difference to the speed you left spawn, as most servers have a 5 second wait thing anyway, it simply reduced the keystrokes needed. I also experimented with a sensitivity toggler key, to cycle different sensitivities for the mouse, which was usefull for sniping.
Summed up complex keybind scripts that reduce keystrokes needed for repeated tasks are not cheats in my opinion. If things like this were cheats, then windows XP would take up 20GB of space as it's code could never be optimised would it? However, binding some things with the intent of giving a agressive (pistolscript), and not passive (buyscript etc) bonus to play are in a huge grey-black area. a leap BIND would be fair, as there is little or no difference between doing it manually, or with the bind, a skilled manual person will have just the same luck with it as a skilled non-manual person thing.
Oh, for further reference, I use the z/x keys to strafe, ctrl for backwards and mouse2 to move forwards. Wierdest keyconfig ever, but feels so natural to me, I can't stand WASD :E
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I don't think leap scripts should be allowed because it is an advantage over doing it manually, the problem is it's a hard rule to enforce without flayra stepping in and blocking up the scripting system. As for mousewheel binds - we all have a mouse wheel, so we all have the same advantage - therefore no exploit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the leap script should be allowed, it's not really something you gain an advantage of. ( though i just use 1, 2, 3 and 4 myself. ) Silence no energy leaping should !NOT! be allowed.
And pistol scripts? i tried 1 myself that shoots 10 bullets in half a sec, tbh it sucks. You can barely move with it because there are so many commands in it.
Some people say i use pistol scripts but it's all clickin on the mouse1 button :/
Your league should put some rules in the disclaimer and if you don't agree or break them. your banned <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Jun 26 2003, 03:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Jun 26 2003, 03:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, for further reference, I use the z/x keys to strafe, ctrl for backwards and mouse2 to move forwards. Wierdest keyconfig ever, but feels so natural to me, I can't stand WASD :E <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MOUSE2 = Forwards UPARROW = Jump LEFT/RIGHTARROW = Strafe DOWNARROW = Backward
I would consider this exploiting the game engine, in the same vien as ex_interp etc. It allows the player to do something that isn't humanly possible. Its just not as skilled as someone who's put the time in to being able to leap, switch, and bite, using the standard buttons, and gives the scripter an unfair advantage. Unfair advantage = Cheating.
Good lord.. Mouse buttons for forward..I could NEVER manage that. Arrow keys for forward/backward/strafe mouse 1 = fire mouse 2 = menu wheel = switch weapons wheelbutton = reload thumb mouse button 1 = jump thumb mouse button 2 = crouch ctrl = whatever if there needs be a special command (like giveres or sprint or lay prone or whatever) shift = walk KP_INS (0 key on the right) = voice comm backspace = drop weapon return = use
You people using mouse 2 to walk are just insane <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
well actually as long as it's just making your life easier without harming others, then it's not wrong. If it's something like abusing a fault in the game, then it is wrong. I use whole loads of "toggle scripts". Does that make me a cheater because I'm too lazy to hold my use, crouch or forward key for too long? (omg an unfair advantage over others: my fingers rest for a bit longer)
mouse 1, shoot mouse 2, jump mouse 3, reload mouse 4, flashlight mouse 5, menu shift, crouch w, forward s, backwards a, strafe left d, strafe left q, suicide e, use g, drop weapon mwheelup,jump mwheeldown,switch wep
<!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Jun 26 2003, 06:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Jun 26 2003, 06:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I use whole loads of "toggle scripts". Does that make me a cheater because I'm too lazy to hold my use, crouch or forward key for too long? (omg an unfair advantage over others: my fingers rest for a bit longer) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In a word; Yes.
While you've got your crouch toggle on thats a finger free that another person may not have. Unless you happen to be missing fingers its an unfair advantage.
Scripting is great. I love simplifying tasks like leaping and blinking with one button scripts. Exploiting bugs (no sound/energy leap) is bad, but a quick switching leap button is a beautiful thing.
The league that banned you is overacting to say the least.
<!--QuoteBegin--nojmaster+Jun 26 2003, 07:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nojmaster @ Jun 26 2003, 07:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Jun 26 2003, 06:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Jun 26 2003, 06:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I use whole loads of "toggle scripts". Does that make me a cheater because I'm too lazy to hold my use, crouch or forward key for too long? (omg an unfair advantage over others: my fingers rest for a bit longer) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*In a word; Yes.
While you've got your crouch toggle on thats a finger free that another person may not have. * <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Smirk. You've never played against me. The elevators and sliding doors are a bigger threat to your health than me having an extra finger free. It's probably wandering off in search of snacks or caffiene-in-a-can anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <- a decent player <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <-me with an extra finger free
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> *BITE BITE BITE!*... oooh, an extra finger! Tasty AND nutritious.
In short: not everyone plays at such a competitive level as to make small convenience scripts game winners. And we slobs want to make things convenient to attract our slob mates into the game.
Most scripts I see are lame, and I would consider unsportsmanlike. I consider it similar to using steroids in sports. You didn't do the work to get the results.
I like what someone said before: the 1 action rule. If the script you make and use does more than one action, it's a cheat.
<!--QuoteBegin--EnemyWithin+Jun 26 2003, 08:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EnemyWithin @ Jun 26 2003, 08:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Scripting is great. I love simplifying tasks like leaping and blinking with one button scripts. Exploiting bugs (no sound/energy leap) is bad, but a quick switching leap button is a beautiful thing.
The league that banned you is overacting to say the least. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why I've avoided your server. It might be really nice, but I just can't bring myself to play there. If the admins of the server think heavily scripting commands is okay, I'm afraid what the general gamer on the server thinks.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited June 2003
If you think using scripts that give you a small advantage is cheating, do you think having a fast computer or connection speed is cheating? These things give you a much greater advantage than scripts.
apart from a few fps bugs that are being ironed out any person with a decent pc and 56k modem or higher *can* play in the same legue as a person with the fastest pc money can buy and a OC3 line.
You can get 60ms pings from a modem connection if you pick your servers carefully. So long as you can hold 30fps you should not be at a disadvantage - I know that is not currently the case because of build times and JP's but that's a bug.
My spare PC, a P3-1g is just as capable as my P4-2.4 as long as I turn down some of the detail, so you are kind of missing the point.
Complex scripts are an active attempt to reduce the difficulty of the game, rather than increase the experience. This puts them in the grey area, if they are written with the purpose of performing a complex and potentially failable sequence of events or actions with a single keystroke thus bypasing the chance of failure then they can be classified as unfair. Rebinding keys does not count as additional actions - in my books.
It's been said before, "cheating is defined more by intent to gain unfair advantage than by the action that achieves it".
I'll bow out of this thread now, you know my opinions and that of most serious admins so there is nothing more to say.
<!--QuoteBegin--MedHead+Jun 26 2003, 05:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Jun 26 2003, 05:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Which is why I've avoided your server. It might be really nice, but I just can't bring myself to play there. If the admins of the server think heavily scripting commands is okay, I'm afraid what the general gamer on the server thinks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Heavily scripting commands...heh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> My pre-game beer provides me with the extra edge to destroy my enemies. The scripts are merely for convenience, the beer is my uber secret weapon! Fear the beer!
But seriously folks, stop worrying about simple scripting. Aimbots, wallhacks and exploits are your enemies, not the scripting functionality that is built-in to the Half-life game. When a script becomes an exploit (i.e. pistol-script), <b>then</b> complain all you like. A simple weapon switching leap script is really not worth anyone's time to **** about.
ok, you might say i over reacted, yes true i did... but i dont want UKNSL to be linked to cheating in any way (fair enough?) Some people think its a cheat, some people dont - as this topic says.. Righty, it is my opinion that scripting in any way like that is an exploit or a minor cheat ... not a major cheat like a wall hack or anything, but its a minor cheat - As for tracking these down well yeah- thats easy we're pulling something outta the bag just before uknsl goes online that will create a copy of your config.cfg and will post it to us - Anyone found with these sorts of things will be punished
Fair enough?
NS will not be a script kiddies playground like TFC + CS --- I want NS to be skill based not "whos got the biggest config.cfg"
<!--QuoteBegin--XenoMorF+Jun 26 2003, 08:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XenoMorF @ Jun 26 2003, 08:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok, you might say i over reacted, yes true i did... but i dont want UKNSL to be linked to cheating in any way (fair enough?) Some people think its a cheat, some people dont - as this topic says.. Righty, it is my opinion that scripting in any way like that is an exploit or a minor cheat ... not a major cheat like a wall hack or anything, but its a minor cheat - As for tracking these down well yeah- thats easy we're pulling something outta the bag just before uknsl goes online that will create a copy of your config.cfg and will post it to us - Anyone found with these sorts of things will be punished
Fair enough?
NS will not be a script kiddies playground like TFC + CS --- I want NS to be skill based not "whos got the biggest config.cfg" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So is hud_fastswitch "1" allowed? You do realize that using that command will save you 1 keystroke everytime you select a different weapon and will provide an advantage to those that are using it. Also, are you allowed to rebind keys to different locations (i.e. move the 1-4 weapon keys closer to your WASD keys for faster access)? I will be interested to read the rules to find out what is considered "legal".
Also, how are you getting the config.cfg? It is common to load configs from external files (i.e. alien.cfg or marine.cfg). It would be very simple to have a plain vanilla config.cfg when you enter the game, and then "exec custom.cfg" to load in all your changes at the start of the match, and then "exec normal.cfg" to go back to the plain vanilla config.cfg at the end of the match. As far as I know, the config.cfg file doesn't get modified during the game, but only when Half-life is closed.
Good luck with your league, I'm sure your strict rules will appeal to some people.
Alot of people are commenting on how scripting allows you to get by in the game using less skill than anyone who cannot script. <b><ul> <li>"Yes, it is a cheat. Game skill should not be replaced by programming skill" <li>"The entire idea of using a script defeats the point of playing to use your skill" <li>"Its just not as skilled as someone who's put the time in to being able to leap, switch, and bite, using the standard buttons, and gives the scripter an unfair advantage" <li>"I want NS to be skill based not "whos got the biggest config.cfg"" </b></ul> Is someone who plays on NS just by typing commands into the console as quickly as he can skillful? He might be. He would look to everyone in the game to be REALLY REALLY crap, but given key binds he might whip their butts! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think that skill should be determined by how well you play INSIDE the game, not on how many buttons you have to press to get the desired result, nor how far away the buttons are. A skillful marine is not one who can play just as well with the default key binds as someone else with an optimal (for him) button mapping. Skill (to me) is how well you shoot, move and think in the game. I do not care how his config files look because that is not part of the skill ascpect AT ALL. Someone who binds all weapon keys to his mouse can pull off the leap-bite move much easier than someone playing with default weapon binds, but this is not seen as an unfair advantage (or at least, it might be, but a perfectly legal one).
Of course, there are many scripts that exploit bugs in the game (pistol script and leap exploit being two), and these I do count as cheats. Scripts that do not exploit bugs, however, and give an outcome that is perfectly legal even if the user typed all the commands into the console himself (like '<b>slot3; +attack'</b>), I do not deem as being cheats.
The fact is, someone with a five button mouse should not be banned because he uses it to its full potential. But why not? It IS unfair to those who do not have five buttoned mice! Just as a faster internet connection, CPU and extra memory is unfair. Scripting is exactly the same thing. As unfair as it might be to other players (not because of skill, that is a different aspect, but because of convenience), it is totally viable and I do not see anything wrong with it at all.
Scripts that allow communication are not seen as bad (as someone else pointed out). Scripts that allow you to press one button and alert your entire team that a marine is taking down a resource tower in South Loop are not seen as unfair, but if the skulk that sent the alert then attempts to kill the marine with a leap-bite script, it is seen as unfair to the marine. Why not the communication script? The marine will have his location compromised after just one button press and potentially then die from a five skulk rush from Maintainence, but that's perfectly OK.
The playing field should be as even as possible. People with **** computers and bad connections probably don't have a choice when it comes to using them, but this is not the case with scripting. It just moves to unbalance the playing field. Its these things that cause half the bitching and moaning ingame; "bah, just some script kiddie","pfffft hax" etc. Because people use these things, people use them as an excuse for getting beaten. I don't want to be able to think that a player may have an unfair advantage, but i do, and have no choice, because as far as im aware there arent any truely script-free servers. Its frustrating.
Personally, I think of scripts as cheating. If the creators of this game wanted us to use scripts and switch between leaping/biting hella fast, they would have made it that way. Anyone who scripts is givin the advantage in games in an unfair way....sooooooo....ya. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is more of a philosophical answer (excuse my ego):
If this were a single player game scripting wouldn't be an issue. You only have to answer to is yourself. But NS is a multi-player game. To keep it as fun and as fair as possible the playing field (in regards to players themselves) has to be as level as possible, in that no one has any outside tools to give them an advantage over the other players. Because a script isn't a tangible thing it's hard to put this into perspective, but this example might make it easier to see:
You're playing baseball with your buddies, having a good time; everyone is putting their all into the game. Now the opposing team is up with an aluminum bat as opposed to the wooden one you were using in the prior inning (Aluminum bats hit much farther than wooden). The game hasn't changed; the rules are still the same. The skill of the individual players hasn't changed either. The aluminum bat has artificially enhanced the abilities of the oppsising team. The game isn't fun anymore.
The fun in NS as in any team / multiplayer game is essentially the act of competition with other players. If it were'nt we'd all be playing aliens vs. predator right now rather than scouring this board for meaningless posts like mine.
Harmful scripts are like the aluminum bat. They're tools that enhance the game beyond the agreed terms of play. They make one player more skilled than the other, whether he is or not. If both teams had aluminum bats the baseball game would again be a blast. If NS 1.1 came packaged with a button bound to "switch to leap, then switch to previous weapon" it wouldn't be harmful because everybody had immediate access to that tool. That script would be part of the rules everybody had to play by from the get go. The idea of even competition would return and the game would be fun.
By these rules though, binding a button to drop health would be a harmful script. As it was something created outside release package. Common sense says it isn't harmful though. Are you gonna blast the other team for wearing cleats to the game when your'e the dumb shmuck wearing loafers?
How do you tell the difference between a common sense and a harmful script? Subjectively you can't. I don't like a leap script, someone else does. Without an official standard set by the devs there is no right answer to the existence of scripts.
To keep your games fair and honest (if you're running scripts) let the people you're playing with know that you've got them running. If we agree to let the other team use aluminum, the game is still fun. In NS, if the majority of other players don't want you using a script after you've announced it then disable it. If only one or two llamas (like myself) cry bloody murder, ignore us and script away. You'll sleep better.
Comments
mwheeldown "slot2"
mouse1 "+attack"
mouse2 "+duck"
mouse3 "slot3"
mouse4 "slot4"
scripts... hmmm... grey area but I always use the 1 action rule.
If your button changes to another weapon then thats ok, if the button also then re binds itself then that's ok. If it changes to a weapon attacks and changes back thats getting pretty grey and I would disaprove on the basis that every other muppet has to do it properly. Very hard for the admin to spot though.
A script that does changeweapon>leap>changeweapon>bite is a definate NO. As is the jump>duck>blink>slash script. Such scripting would deserve a warn;kick;ban script from the admin. I might go as far as to include the 8 round lmg burst script except that it does more to hinder the user than the target <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really think he got the point.
the entire idea of using a script defeats the point of playing to use your skill...press one button and it does it? well thats pointless. its gaining an advantage that others will nmot exploit
pistol scripts are just as bad too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i see no problem with having a bind to, as an example, request a med-pack throu8gh impule and text, as you are just clarifying, or using a bind to place a particular structure, this is time saving (i.e. u dnt have to select menu or building) but if u use hud_fastswitch 1 and have reasonable skill then you can be better than any script
changeweapon>leap>changeweapon>bite sounds more like a limitation.
Moreover, cookie sounds like he's using only the first three commands of the clause.
It's their server, though, so can't really help you with that.
But I consider anything cheating that's not ready made in the game (lastinv IS, fastswitch isnt cheating either IMHO) but writing custom scripts to do stuff like that gives you an advantage over people NOT using it meaning it gives an unfair advantage.
So I say:
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>CHEATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111</span></span>
I have a 5 buttoned mouse, so
mouse1= Fire
mouse2 = moveforwards
mouse3 = reload
mouse4 = strafeleft
mouse5 = straferight
regular mouse movement = look
This got confusing after a while, current config for mouse as alien:
mouse1 = fire
mouse2 = moveforwards
mouse3 = say_team location
mouse4 = use
mouse5 = flashlight
mousewheelup = slot3
mousewheeldown = slot1
I'm with the argument that keybinds are not cheats/exploits, excepting a few that are ott - such as the pistol to mousewheel bind thing.
I don't think binding a key to simply select slot 3, fire, then slect slot 1 ready to bite again is a cheat, all it does is reduce the number of keystrokes needed, or freeing other keys for other jobs.
I have a multi-binder script some might consider an exploit - all it does is cycle between different keyboard/mouse configs at the touch of a button, meaning I can have a fully adaptive system instead of messing around. It also alows for a lot of flexibility.
I used to use a buyscript in cs, which I thaught was fair as it is a pain to continually press the same keys again and again and again. It made little or no difference to the speed you left spawn, as most servers have a 5 second wait thing anyway, it simply reduced the keystrokes needed. I also experimented with a sensitivity toggler key, to cycle different sensitivities for the mouse, which was usefull for sniping.
Summed up complex keybind scripts that reduce keystrokes needed for repeated tasks are not cheats in my opinion. If things like this were cheats, then windows XP would take up 20GB of space as it's code could never be optimised would it?
However, binding some things with the intent of giving a agressive (pistolscript), and not passive (buyscript etc) bonus to play are in a huge grey-black area. a leap BIND would be fair, as there is little or no difference between doing it manually, or with the bind, a skilled manual person will have just the same luck with it as a skilled non-manual person thing.
Oh, for further reference, I use the z/x keys to strafe, ctrl for backwards and mouse2 to move forwards. Wierdest keyconfig ever, but feels so natural to me, I can't stand WASD :E
I think the leap script should be allowed, it's not really something you gain an advantage of. ( though i just use 1, 2, 3 and 4 myself. )
Silence no energy leaping should !NOT! be allowed.
And pistol scripts? i tried 1 myself that shoots 10 bullets in half a sec, tbh it sucks. You can barely move with it because there are so many commands in it.
Some people say i use pistol scripts but it's all clickin on the mouse1 button :/
Your league should put some rules in the disclaimer and if you don't agree or break them. your banned <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
MOUSE2 = Forwards
UPARROW = Jump
LEFT/RIGHTARROW = Strafe
DOWNARROW = Backward
Mouse buttons for forward..I could NEVER manage that.
Arrow keys for forward/backward/strafe
mouse 1 = fire
mouse 2 = menu
wheel = switch weapons
wheelbutton = reload
thumb mouse button 1 = jump
thumb mouse button 2 = crouch
ctrl = whatever if there needs be a special command (like giveres or sprint or lay prone or whatever)
shift = walk
KP_INS (0 key on the right) = voice comm
backspace = drop weapon
return = use
You people using mouse 2 to walk are just insane <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
mouse 2, jump
mouse 3, reload
mouse 4, flashlight
mouse 5, menu
shift, crouch
w, forward
s, backwards
a, strafe left
d, strafe left
q, suicide
e, use
g, drop weapon
mwheelup,jump
mwheeldown,switch wep
In a word; Yes.
While you've got your crouch toggle on thats a finger free that another person may not have. Unless you happen to be missing fingers its an unfair advantage.
The league that banned you is overacting to say the least.
*In a word; Yes.
While you've got your crouch toggle on thats a finger free that another person may not have. * <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smirk. You've never played against me. The elevators and sliding doors are a bigger threat to your health than me having an extra finger free. It's probably wandering off in search of snacks or caffiene-in-a-can anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <- a decent player <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <-me with an extra finger free
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> *BITE BITE BITE!*... oooh, an extra finger! Tasty AND nutritious.
In short: not everyone plays at such a competitive level as to make small convenience scripts game winners. And we slobs want to make things convenient to attract our slob mates into the game.
I like what someone said before: the 1 action rule. If the script you make and use does more than one action, it's a cheat.
The league that banned you is overacting to say the least. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why I've avoided your server. It might be really nice, but I just can't bring myself to play there. If the admins of the server think heavily scripting commands is okay, I'm afraid what the general gamer on the server thinks.
You can get 60ms pings from a modem connection if you pick your servers carefully.
So long as you can hold 30fps you should not be at a disadvantage - I know that is not currently the case because of build times and JP's but that's a bug.
My spare PC, a P3-1g is just as capable as my P4-2.4 as long as I turn down some of the detail, so you are kind of missing the point.
Complex scripts are an active attempt to reduce the difficulty of the game, rather than increase the experience. This puts them in the grey area, if they are written with the purpose of performing a complex and potentially failable sequence of events or actions with a single keystroke thus bypasing the chance of failure then they can be classified as unfair. Rebinding keys does not count as additional actions - in my books.
It's been said before, "cheating is defined more by intent to gain unfair advantage than by the action that achieves it".
I'll bow out of this thread now, you know my opinions and that of most serious admins so there is nothing more to say.
Although i think a leap script is really simple to use, and wont relaly make much difference, seems a bit harsh to get kicked for that reason.
Its scripts like quick pistol which are unfair.
fwd-ridley.
Heavily scripting commands...heh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> My pre-game beer provides me with the extra edge to destroy my enemies. The scripts are merely for convenience, the beer is my uber secret weapon! Fear the beer!
But seriously folks, stop worrying about simple scripting. Aimbots, wallhacks and exploits are your enemies, not the scripting functionality that is built-in to the Half-life game. When a script becomes an exploit (i.e. pistol-script), <b>then</b> complain all you like. A simple weapon switching leap script is really not worth anyone's time to **** about.
Fair enough?
NS will not be a script kiddies playground like TFC + CS --- I want NS to be skill based not "whos got the biggest config.cfg"
Fair enough?
NS will not be a script kiddies playground like TFC + CS --- I want NS to be skill based not "whos got the biggest config.cfg" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is hud_fastswitch "1" allowed? You do realize that using that command will save you 1 keystroke everytime you select a different weapon and will provide an advantage to those that are using it. Also, are you allowed to rebind keys to different locations (i.e. move the 1-4 weapon keys closer to your WASD keys for faster access)? I will be interested to read the rules to find out what is considered "legal".
Also, how are you getting the config.cfg? It is common to load configs from external files (i.e. alien.cfg or marine.cfg). It would be very simple to have a plain vanilla config.cfg when you enter the game, and then "exec custom.cfg" to load in all your changes at the start of the match, and then "exec normal.cfg" to go back to the plain vanilla config.cfg at the end of the match. As far as I know, the config.cfg file doesn't get modified during the game, but only when Half-life is closed.
Good luck with your league, I'm sure your strict rules will appeal to some people.
<b><ul>
<li>"Yes, it is a cheat. Game skill should not be replaced by programming skill"
<li>"The entire idea of using a script defeats the point of playing to use your skill"
<li>"Its just not as skilled as someone who's put the time in to being able to leap, switch, and bite, using the standard buttons, and gives the scripter an unfair advantage"
<li>"I want NS to be skill based not "whos got the biggest config.cfg""
</b></ul>
Is someone who plays on NS just by typing commands into the console as quickly as he can skillful? He might be. He would look to everyone in the game to be REALLY REALLY crap, but given key binds he might whip their butts! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think that skill should be determined by how well you play INSIDE the game, not on how many buttons you have to press to get the desired result, nor how far away the buttons are. A skillful marine is not one who can play just as well with the default key binds as someone else with an optimal (for him) button mapping. Skill (to me) is how well you shoot, move and think in the game. I do not care how his config files look because that is not part of the skill ascpect AT ALL. Someone who binds all weapon keys to his mouse can pull off the leap-bite move much easier than someone playing with default weapon binds, but this is not seen as an unfair advantage (or at least, it might be, but a perfectly legal one).
Of course, there are many scripts that exploit bugs in the game (pistol script and leap exploit being two), and these I do count as cheats. Scripts that do not exploit bugs, however, and give an outcome that is perfectly legal even if the user typed all the commands into the console himself (like '<b>slot3; +attack'</b>), I do not deem as being cheats.
The fact is, someone with a five button mouse should not be banned because he uses it to its full potential. But why not? It IS unfair to those who do not have five buttoned mice! Just as a faster internet connection, CPU and extra memory is unfair. Scripting is exactly the same thing. As unfair as it might be to other players (not because of skill, that is a different aspect, but because of convenience), it is totally viable and I do not see anything wrong with it at all.
Scripts that allow communication are not seen as bad (as someone else pointed out). Scripts that allow you to press one button and alert your entire team that a marine is taking down a resource tower in South Loop are not seen as unfair, but if the skulk that sent the alert then attempts to kill the marine with a leap-bite script, it is seen as unfair to the marine. Why not the communication script? The marine will have his location compromised after just one button press and potentially then die from a five skulk rush from Maintainence, but that's perfectly OK.
If this were a single player game scripting wouldn't be an issue. You only have to answer to is yourself. But NS is a multi-player game. To keep it as fun and as fair as possible the playing field (in regards to players themselves) has to be as level as possible, in that no one has any outside tools to give them an advantage over the other players. Because a script isn't a tangible thing it's hard to put this into perspective, but this example might make it easier to see:
You're playing baseball with your buddies, having a good time; everyone is putting their all into the game. Now the opposing team is up with an aluminum bat as opposed to the wooden one you were using in the prior inning (Aluminum bats hit much farther than wooden). The game hasn't changed; the rules are still the same. The skill of the individual players hasn't changed either. The aluminum bat has artificially enhanced the abilities of the oppsising team. The game isn't fun anymore.
The fun in NS as in any team / multiplayer game is essentially the act of competition with other players. If it were'nt we'd all be playing aliens vs. predator right now rather than scouring this board for meaningless posts like mine.
Harmful scripts are like the aluminum bat. They're tools that enhance the game beyond the agreed terms of play. They make one player more skilled than the other, whether he is or not. If both teams had aluminum bats the baseball game would again be a blast. If NS 1.1 came packaged with a button bound to "switch to leap, then switch to previous weapon" it wouldn't be harmful because everybody had immediate access to that tool. That script would be part of the rules everybody had to play by from the get go. The idea of even competition would return and the game would be fun.
By these rules though, binding a button to drop health would be a harmful script. As it was something created outside release package. Common sense says it isn't harmful though. Are you gonna blast the other team for wearing cleats to the game when your'e the dumb shmuck wearing loafers?
How do you tell the difference between a common sense and a harmful script? Subjectively you can't. I don't like a leap script, someone else does. Without an official standard set by the devs there is no right answer to the existence of scripts.
To keep your games fair and honest (if you're running scripts) let the people you're playing with know that you've got them running. If we agree to let the other team use aluminum, the game is still fun. In NS, if the majority of other players don't want you using a script after you've announced it then disable it. If only one or two llamas (like myself) cry bloody murder, ignore us and script away. You'll sleep better.