Any creation of a retail NS in its current form would require purchase or licensing of the engine. Which does not require Valve to do anything but accept a check.
I honestly wanted to keep quiet in this thread, to stay out of the needless banter. I'm a weak man.
The truth is (like many have stated before me) is that a funded NS is a better NS. I'll put it in a simple mathematical formula for you-
Assuming "NS = the X variable"; X+$$$=X^2; X^2 > X
therefor,
X^2= The new and improved NS as a direct resault of a well fed and funded Flayra and co, along with the loss of need to worry about various bills.
Another very important point: CS, an insanley fun game, has had cheaters since it's earliest incarnation. During its Beta 1 period, an easily accessable skin-changing cheat allowed you to look like the enemy. Very nasty.
As such, NS version 1.0 has had cheaters right off the bat. No matter the size of the community, cheaters (and sub-sequent llamas) are bound to appear. Does this make they game they haunt bad? By no means! Counter-Strike got popular for a reason, and its not low system specs, or even the possibility of it getting you money, but rather the plain and simple fact that it's <i>fun</i>. Now who in the world would ever think that.
Ns follows in similar suit. Besides, some of you may be forgetting- both CS and Dod are still available free as mods for Half-Life. Why would Natural-Selection be any different, especially under the navigation of Flayra?
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--MenTaL+Jun 13 2003, 01:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MenTaL @ Jun 13 2003, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hah I wouldn't want valve to take it. They screwed Dod. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Day of Defeat team was hired by Valve and moved into their offices for full-time employment. If anyone "screwed" DoD, it was their own team, now Valve employees.
No problem Monse, just here to help <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But seriously, most of the people reading this thread will never have seen the SDK license, so I figured I'd point it out.
My point was that Valve does have right of refusal on licensing to say "it's our way or the highway" in terms of making NS a retail product.
Guys, don't forget that in the interview, when Flayra mentioned going retail, he was talking about LICENSING the Half-Life engine. This means no VALVe involvement, and Flayra can form "NS Productions Inc." <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Flayra: I agree with you, I'm both confused and very dissapointed with the naysayers. I fully understand how much of a drain NS must be having on you both financially, and emotionally. Which is why I fully support your future endeavours. And hey, if NS development sped up because it was paying all your bills and you don't have to worry about other work, well, that's just a nice bonus <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Good luck!
<!--QuoteBegin--QUAD+Jun 12 2003, 08:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QUAD @ Jun 12 2003, 08:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another very important point: CS, an insanley fun game, has had cheaters since it's earliest incarnation. During its Beta 1 period, an easily accessable skin-changing cheat allowed you to look like the enemy. Very nasty.
As such, NS version 1.0 has had cheaters right off the bat. No matter the size of the community, cheaters (and sub-sequent llamas) are bound to appear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll use this as a springboard to say that this game going retail will have absolutely no effect on cheating. At this current moment it has not gone retail, yet it contains cheaters and needs software like CD to try and prevent that. So leave that sort of argument out (<b>whoever</b> said it would encourage cheating).
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I also hope to never have to give up the intellectual property to NS, which means it won't be taken over by some corporate drone that doesn't understand it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flay would never tell you how much he spent because he's too much of a Vermonter. But at this point it has been <b>tens of thousands</b> of dollars. I am not exagerating. He has drained his saving completely and lives like an Amsterdam Youth Hostel refugee to make NS, so anyone wanting to quite literally steal food out of his mouth can answer to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jun 13 2003, 01:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jun 13 2003, 01:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flay would never tell you how much he spent because he's too much of a Vermonter. But at this point it has been <b>tens of thousands</b> of dollars. I am not exagerating. He has drained his saving completely and lives like an Amsterdam Youth Hostel refugee to make NS, so anyone wanting to quite literally steal food out of his mouth can answer to me.
Rawr. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I vote we make him an honourary Canadian, he deserves it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But all this is why I urge Flayra to persue his plans! He deserves so much more than what he gets in return for his effort.
At this point I don't think anyone could make Flayra think one way or the other. He obviosly has a master plan, and if Natural-Selection is any attestament to his genius, I'm pretty sure things will work out the way he wants them to.
Meanwhilst, join the constellation program today! For literally pennies a day, you can sponsor your very own Flayra, feed him, make sure he has decent clothing, and pay his water bills!
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jun 13 2003, 01:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jun 13 2003, 01:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flay would never tell you how much he spent because he's too much of a Vermonter. But at this point it has been <b>tens of thousands</b> of dollars. I am not exagerating. He has drained his saving completely and lives like an Amsterdam Youth Hostel refugee to make NS, so anyone wanting to quite literally steal food out of his mouth can answer to me.
Rawr. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey I'll send him money, clothes, canned goods, women, or whatever he want. In fact we can start a new program: Keep Flayra Alive and Well, KFAW. Donate now, for the puppies. 1-800-SAVEFLAY
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lastly, I also hope to never have to give up the intellectual property to NS, which means it won't be taken over by some corporate drone that doesn't understand it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's my fear of what might happen to a retail NS: you, Flayra, forced to alter your vision of NS to satisfy some faceless robot. I never want to see that happen. But I just can't see a union of coperate business and freedom of software creation. Maybe I'm too harsh. I certainly don't think you're stupid Flayra; quite the reverse. I simply question how much control you would have over NS if a company bought it up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flay would never tell you how much he spent because he's too much of a Vermonter. But at this point it has been tens of thousands of dollars. I am not exagerating. He has drained his saving completely and lives like an Amsterdam Youth Hostel refugee to make NS, so anyone wanting to quite literally steal food out of his mouth can answer to me.
Monse, I'm not trying to starve Flay. When I heard he spent $10,000 on professional voice acting I assumed that money simply wasn't an issue for Flay i.e. He was rolling in it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> As I am the SOLE voice of dissent in the entire NS community I guess I can answer to you. Flayra is obviously an excellent programmer, he's worked in the industry and now he has NS to show off in his portfolio; would it be naive of me to think that he could get a job in the software industry, and a fairly good one at that? I was frankly bemused that Flayra would want to throw his beloved creation into the salivating jaws of corperate buisness; I'd always assumed that Flayra was hunting a job in the software industry doing work on NS in his spare time. Seems I was wrong. But would it be unthinkable for Flayra to do something like this? His call obviously, but if he wants to be free to shape NS as he sees it then wouldn't selling it off be counter-productive?
Well MonsE is of course exaggerating a bit here. Have no pity, I don't want it.
However, I have enough of an independent streak that I won't be sacrificing the "vision of NS" for a publisher. Listen to them? Sure. They have an understanding of the market I sure don't. However, whatever comes of this (if anything) will be something that should make even the most die-hards proud to play it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jun 13 2003, 02:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jun 13 2003, 02:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well MonsE is of course exaggerating a bit here. Have no pity, I don't want it.
However, I have enough of an independent streak that I won't be sacrificing the "vision of NS" for a publisher. Listen to them? Sure. They have an understanding of the market I sure don't. However, whatever comes of this (if anything) will be something that should make even the most die-hards proud to play it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra, it's not pity, but a sense of deep admiration for the sacrifices you're willing and able to make. I know I wouldn't be able to do the same thing in your position.
I don't drop in on the forums as much as I used to, but ya know I can't stay away forever.
No one should have any fear about NS going retail. This game is a dream come true to its' creator! How many of you would give up your dream for a little extra money? Flayra has proven he is in this for nothing more than satisfaction in his own creation. And perhaps the joy it spreads in others. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cheaters are everywhere. Remember stopcommandermode? Was that abused endlessly? Yeah I think so. Have I just reiterated the same points made by monse? Yes I have. Oh well, they were good points, and many of you probably skipped over them because you're lazy.
I havent listened to the interview yet, but I feel that any financial reward you can get for the time and effort you have put in is well deserved.
Good job, Flayra. Keep up the good work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but if he wants to be free to shape NS as he sees it then wouldn't selling it off be counter-productive? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ryo, why are you so obsessed with the idea that he is "selling it off". Retail does NOT equal rights. You can make a deal to have your product packaged for retail without giving up the development rights. Maybe it won't be as sweet as deal, but that's what negotiations are. You have got to drop this overzealous preconceived notion. Corporate america is partly what you make it, not some automatic signing away of one's soul. I want to say, "Get it through your thick skull.", but of course that would be flaming. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ryo-ohki really needs to stop beating this 'betrayal / commercialism / sell-out' dead horse. Retail NS would mean resources pouring into the further development of this game and a further expansion of the creator's vision, which he has every legal and moral right to. Even if it didn't, NS and Flayra owe you exactly NOTHING.
The stuff you've been saying here is simply embarassing. It demonstrates only naivete and ignorance of the game industry coupled with obsession for controlling something that is not yours to control.
Voicing a considered and passionate opinion is fine. Hammering on it incessantly without considering the opinons of those you claim to respect will only diminish your own reputation.
Its an odd feature of mod based games that players can watch as the game develops into a more or less finished work. Because of the changes involved in crafting the game not every player will be 100% satisfied.
When playing a game its much better to say " gee I dont like how they did X but its still a pretty fun game" Rather than "gee I dont like how they did X Im never playing again."
NS going retail will not change the basic core of the game. I have no doubt that whatever the finished product is, I will find some aspect I wont like. However I am quite sure that I will still enjoy playing the game.
Its just not worth worrying about at this point. Save your energy for teaching new players how to comm <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> then we might get some new tactics.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Jun 13 2003, 02:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 13 2003, 02:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flayra is obviously an excellent programmer, he's worked in the industry and now he has NS to show off in his portfolio; would it be naive of me to think that he could get a job in the software industry, and a fairly good one at that? I was frankly bemused that Flayra would want to throw his beloved creation into the salivating jaws of corperate buisness; I'd always assumed that Flayra was hunting a job in the software industry doing work on NS in his spare time. Seems I was wrong. But would it be unthinkable for Flayra to do something like this? His call obviously, but if he wants to be free to shape NS as he sees it then wouldn't selling it off be counter-productive? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To start with, you seem to be assuming that Flayra hasn't already spent a fair amount of his time searching for a job. Despite having something as impressive as NS in his portfolio, and, in some cases even because of it, finding a good job in the game industry is not that easy.
You make it sound so simple -- Flayra gets a steady paying job and continues to MAKE AN ENTIRE GAME in his spare time. I have a job in the game industry, and I know how laughable of a concept "spare time" is. When you are working 60 to 80 hour weeks, believe me, there is very little time or energy left over for anything else. If you think 1.1 is taking a long time to come out, remember, that is WITH Flayra devoting 100% of his time to it, all day long, every day. Now think how fast NS would evolve if he can only spend a few hours a week on it.
On top of that, many companies even have explicit policies which don't allow the employees to work on any outside projects.
I'm sorry if it seems like we are ganging up on you, Ryo-Ohki, but you seem to be making a lot of snap judgements and assumptions, with a very limited amount of information.
Trust me, when you're the sole voice protesting against American agression in the discussion forums you get used to people ganging up on you. This is nothing new to me; however I have my principals and I will stick to them.
Would I pay money for NS? Hell yes I would, it's a brilliant game. I've never once stated that I wouldn't pay for the game.
Now for the reverse flamethrower.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if it didn't, NS and Flayra owe you exactly NOTHING. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? And here was me thinking that my soveriegn rights as a devoted NS player were being crushed! As you seem to have completly ignored my actual point, of course I know Flayra owes me nothing. I'll re-iterate just for you: Flayra's vision of NS may not be what his bosses want. If I recall correctly one of the reasons Flayra got out of the software industry was to have more freedom of design.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ryo, give it up man. You're waisting my time reading this stupid thread.
Think of it this way. No $$ = NO NS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did I force you to read it? No. Did I force you to write that comment? No. Have I ever EVER <b>EVER</b> once said that I wouldn't pay for NS? No. I'm not going to simply ignore my fears about one of my favorite games being twisted by a corperation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ryo, why are you so obsessed with the idea that he is "selling it off". Retail does NOT equal rights. You can make a deal to have your product packaged for retail without giving up the development rights. Maybe it won't be as sweet as deal, but that's what negotiations are. You have got to drop this overzealous preconceived notion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So lets say Flayra keeps his development rights when NS goes retail. A few months later, Flayra is approached by his bosses. They tell him that sales figures are down, and the central reason accourding the their research is that the marine commander has a role that is too complex. They request that he dumb down the commander's role to make it easier for new players. Hypothetical case to be sure, but this is the kind of thing I'm concerned about. I hardly think it's simply a "notion" that the principal aim of a company is to make money, correct? Hence, a company marketing a product will do everything they can to make it more popular and more widely appealing to a greatest range of people possible. In pursueing this, they may force Flayra to make changes he did not want to make.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You make it sound so simple -- Flayra gets a steady paying job and continues to MAKE AN ENTIRE GAME in his spare time. I have a job in the game industry, and I know how laughable of a concept "spare time" is. When you are working 60 to 80 hour weeks, believe me, there is very little time or energy left over for anything else. If you think 1.1 is taking a long time to come out, remember, that is WITH Flayra devoting 100% of his time to it, all day long, every day. Now think how fast NS would evolve if he can only spend a few hours a week on it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main reason I said this was that it would seem from my uneducated point of view that much of the ground work for NS had already been done, hence meaning that subsequant patches would not be too hard to code. The fact that Flayra is changing so much in 1.1 however kinda thwarts that notion, but is every patch going to be as big in scope and re-design as 1.1? Maybe I overestimate Flayra's abilities when I say that coding simple patches after 1.1 for gameplay tweaking etc would be an easy task. Perhaps I am wrong; I'm not a programmer. I honestly didn't think Flayra was going to change as much as he did in 1.1, but by the same token I hardly think that the next 4 or 5 patches after 1.1 are going to make changes on the same scale.
I'm rather enjoying this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
End of the day, it's Flayras game, which he and the other devs worked damn hard on and gave you as a <i>free</i> download.
More than just a free game, it's a <i>really good</i> free game, far better than most of the junk I've paid good money for over the last two decades...
However, electricity bills don't pay themselves, and food doesn't just magically appear in your fridge y'know? I reckon if they can get some money out of this and continue to improve and expand upon the concept , that's great.
You've already been told it will always be a free download, so what exactly is the problem here?
This thread reminds me of people who decide "insert band x here" are "teh sellout corporate hoes!11" because they finally sell more than two records and don't have to live in a transit van anymore...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sole voice protesting against American agression <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, the smell of irrational paranoia and generalization. It is not America which is aggressive, it is certain elements of leadership currently in control that are aggressive. It is not France that is passive, but certain elements of French leadership that are passive. It is not the entire of capitalist corporate America which is corrupt, but certain companies with questionable business practices. Lose the paranoia, the generalization, and the gross over-simplification of America's economic subtleties or else no amount of logic will ever have any affect on you. This is advice, not a flame. Open ze mind to all possibilities, rather than clinging to what appear to be generalized presuppositions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They request that he dumb down the commander's role to make it easier for new players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, unless he signs a deal giving them ultimate say, he says NO. Yes, the word NO does exist in American language. The only way I can see you reaching these conclusions is one of two assumptions. That Valve has the Unholy power of Satan, which they don't. Or that Flayra is weak-willed and stupid. Do you think he's stupid? Because I have to admit that is what you are heavily implying.
I don't really think of 1.1 as a "patch" - more of a revamp. I mean Flayra has started changing fundamental features in this game - onos with 1 hive? Megachange! So obviously balancing it, making it all work, etc. takes time. And good point there Squealy - I myself thought: "You CAN'T make a completely new game in your spare time!"
I tell you what I'd like. Obviously this game has now evolved like the Kharaa do. I'd love to see some "back stories" like in 1.0x's manual. Stuff about TSA Frontiersmen coming to a ship and knowing, from past experience, that you only get an Onos with 3 hives. Then they see 8 of them with one hive. "OMG! They've gone all Darwin on us! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Run away!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ahh, the smell of irrational paranoia and generalization. It is not America which is aggressive, it is certain elements of leadership currently in control that are aggressive. It is not France that is passive, but certain elements of French leadership that are passive. It is not the entire of capitalist corporate America which is corrupt, but certain companies with questionable business practices. Lose the paranoia, the generalization, and the gross over-simplification of America's economic subtleties or else no amount of logic will ever have any affect on you. This is advice, not a flame. Open ze mind to all possibilities, rather than clinging to what appear to be generalized presuppositions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>** Yo, tone it down like three notches. ** </b>
So because I make one irrelevant comment than indicates my distaste for certain aspect sof US foreign policy I must be "paranoid and irrational". I happened to use the term "America" because it is America's policys. The leadership of the US represents the US on the world stage, and as a result the actions of these men and women are seen as the actions of America. I don't generalise, where the hell did I say that? Oh, but because I don't salute the US flag and kowtow to Bush I must be illogical and paranoid. I do not make any blanket statements about US foreign policy: I simply indicated that I don't like certain aspects of it. You seem to be the one with the generalizations: anyone who is against US foreign policy must therefore be against the US, freedom, justice, liberty and Mom's Apple Pie. What the hell do you know about me and my views on the US? One sentance. Before you go and brand me as the next Anti-christ, open YOUR mind to the strange and mysterious possibility that your glorious leader commited a completly illegal invasion.
By the way if the discussion forums were still open we could spar properly. <b>** Be nice. ** </b>
Comments
/sarcasm <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Any creation of a retail NS in its current form would require purchase or licensing of the engine. Which does not require Valve to do anything but accept a check.
The truth is (like many have stated before me) is that a funded NS is a better NS. I'll put it in a simple mathematical formula for you-
Assuming "NS = the X variable"; X+$$$=X^2; X^2 > X
therefor,
X^2= The new and improved NS as a direct resault of a well fed and funded Flayra and co, along with the loss of need to worry about various bills.
Another very important point: CS, an insanley fun game, has had cheaters since it's earliest incarnation. During its Beta 1 period, an easily accessable skin-changing cheat allowed you to look like the enemy. Very nasty.
As such, NS version 1.0 has had cheaters right off the bat. No matter the size of the community, cheaters (and sub-sequent llamas) are bound to appear. Does this make they game they haunt bad? By no means! Counter-Strike got popular for a reason, and its not low system specs, or even the possibility of it getting you money, but rather the plain and simple fact that it's <i>fun</i>. Now who in the world would ever think that.
Ns follows in similar suit. Besides, some of you may be forgetting- both CS and Dod are still available free as mods for Half-Life. Why would Natural-Selection be any different, especially under the navigation of Flayra?
The Day of Defeat team was hired by Valve and moved into their offices for full-time employment. If anyone "screwed" DoD, it was their own team, now Valve employees.
But seriously, most of the people reading this thread will never have seen the SDK license, so I figured I'd point it out.
My point was that Valve does have right of refusal on licensing to say "it's our way or the highway" in terms of making NS a retail product.
Flayra: I agree with you, I'm both confused and very dissapointed with the naysayers. I fully understand how much of a drain NS must be having on you both financially, and emotionally. Which is why I fully support your future endeavours. And hey, if NS development sped up because it was paying all your bills and you don't have to worry about other work, well, that's just a nice bonus <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Good luck!
As such, NS version 1.0 has had cheaters right off the bat. No matter the size of the community, cheaters (and sub-sequent llamas) are bound to appear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll use this as a springboard to say that this game going retail will have absolutely no effect on cheating. At this current moment it has not gone retail, yet it contains cheaters and needs software like CD to try and prevent that. So leave that sort of argument out (<b>whoever</b> said it would encourage cheating).
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I also hope to never have to give up the intellectual property to NS, which means it won't be taken over by some corporate drone that doesn't understand it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src='http://ecoles.dsfm.mb.ca/~lacerte/a-bravo.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Rawr.
Rawr. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I vote we make him an honourary Canadian, he deserves it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But all this is why I urge Flayra to persue his plans! He deserves so much more than what he gets in return for his effort.
Meanwhilst, join the constellation program today! For literally pennies a day, you can sponsor your very own Flayra, feed him, make sure he has decent clothing, and pay his water bills!
Rawr. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey I'll send him money, clothes, canned goods, women, or whatever he want. In fact we can start a new program: Keep Flayra Alive and Well, KFAW. Donate now, for the puppies. 1-800-SAVEFLAY
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That's my fear of what might happen to a retail NS: you, Flayra, forced to alter your vision of NS to satisfy some faceless robot. I never want to see that happen. But I just can't see a union of coperate business and freedom of software creation. Maybe I'm too harsh. I certainly don't think you're stupid Flayra; quite the reverse. I simply question how much control you would have over NS if a company bought it up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flay would never tell you how much he spent because he's too much of a Vermonter. But at this point it has been tens of thousands of dollars. I am not exagerating. He has drained his saving completely and lives like an Amsterdam Youth Hostel refugee to make NS, so anyone wanting to quite literally steal food out of his mouth can answer to me.
Rawr. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Monse, I'm not trying to starve Flay. When I heard he spent $10,000 on professional voice acting I assumed that money simply wasn't an issue for Flay i.e. He was rolling in it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> As I am the SOLE voice of dissent in the entire NS community I guess I can answer to you. Flayra is obviously an excellent programmer, he's worked in the industry and now he has NS to show off in his portfolio; would it be naive of me to think that he could get a job in the software industry, and a fairly good one at that? I was frankly bemused that Flayra would want to throw his beloved creation into the salivating jaws of corperate buisness; I'd always assumed that Flayra was hunting a job in the software industry doing work on NS in his spare time. Seems I was wrong. But would it be unthinkable for Flayra to do something like this? His call obviously, but if he wants to be free to shape NS as he sees it then wouldn't selling it off be counter-productive?
However, I have enough of an independent streak that I won't be sacrificing the "vision of NS" for a publisher. Listen to them? Sure. They have an understanding of the market I sure don't. However, whatever comes of this (if anything) will be something that should make even the most die-hards proud to play it.
However, I have enough of an independent streak that I won't be sacrificing the "vision of NS" for a publisher. Listen to them? Sure. They have an understanding of the market I sure don't. However, whatever comes of this (if anything) will be something that should make even the most die-hards proud to play it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra, it's not pity, but a sense of deep admiration for the sacrifices you're willing and able to make. I know I wouldn't be able to do the same thing in your position.
No one should have any fear about NS going retail. This game is a dream come true to its' creator! How many of you would give up your dream for a little extra money? Flayra has proven he is in this for nothing more than satisfaction in his own creation. And perhaps the joy it spreads in others. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cheaters are everywhere. Remember stopcommandermode? Was that abused endlessly? Yeah I think so.
Have I just reiterated the same points made by monse? Yes I have. Oh well, they were good points, and many of you probably skipped over them because you're lazy.
=P
Good job, Flayra. Keep up the good work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Ryo, why are you so obsessed with the idea that he is "selling it off". Retail does NOT equal rights. You can make a deal to have your product packaged for retail without giving up the development rights. Maybe it won't be as sweet as deal, but that's what negotiations are. You have got to drop this overzealous preconceived notion. Corporate america is partly what you make it, not some automatic signing away of one's soul. I want to say, "Get it through your thick skull.", but of course that would be flaming. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Think of it this way. No $$ = NO NS
So, stick with 1.1 and the rest of us will enjoy what Flay has to offer.
Nuff said.
Oh, and stop saying DoD is a sell-out. Most of the things will get fixed in 1.1 anyways.. . . .
The stuff you've been saying here is simply embarassing. It demonstrates only naivete and ignorance of the game industry coupled with obsession for controlling something that is not yours to control.
Voicing a considered and passionate opinion is fine. Hammering on it incessantly without considering the opinons of those you claim to respect will only diminish your own reputation.
Its an odd feature of mod based games that players can watch as the game develops into a more or less finished work. Because of the changes involved in crafting the game not every player will be 100% satisfied.
When playing a game its much better to say " gee I dont like how they did X but its still a pretty fun game" Rather than "gee I dont like how they did X Im never playing again."
NS going retail will not change the basic core of the game. I have no doubt that whatever the finished product is, I will find some aspect I wont like. However I am quite sure that I will still enjoy playing the game.
Its just not worth worrying about at this point. Save your energy for teaching new players how to comm <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> then we might get some new tactics.
To start with, you seem to be assuming that Flayra hasn't already spent a fair amount of his time searching for a job. Despite having something as impressive as NS in his portfolio, and, in some cases even because of it, finding a good job in the game industry is not that easy.
You make it sound so simple -- Flayra gets a steady paying job and continues to MAKE AN ENTIRE GAME in his spare time. I have a job in the game industry, and I know how laughable of a concept "spare time" is. When you are working 60 to 80 hour weeks, believe me, there is very little time or energy left over for anything else. If you think 1.1 is taking a long time to come out, remember, that is WITH Flayra devoting 100% of his time to it, all day long, every day. Now think how fast NS would evolve if he can only spend a few hours a week on it.
On top of that, many companies even have explicit policies which don't allow the employees to work on any outside projects.
I'm sorry if it seems like we are ganging up on you, Ryo-Ohki, but you seem to be making a lot of snap judgements and assumptions, with a very limited amount of information.
Would I pay money for NS? Hell yes I would, it's a brilliant game. I've never once stated that I wouldn't pay for the game.
Now for the reverse flamethrower.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if it didn't, NS and Flayra owe you exactly NOTHING.
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Really? And here was me thinking that my soveriegn rights as a devoted NS player were being crushed! As you seem to have completly ignored my actual point, of course I know Flayra owes me nothing. I'll re-iterate just for you: Flayra's vision of NS may not be what his bosses want. If I recall correctly one of the reasons Flayra got out of the software industry was to have more freedom of design.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ryo, give it up man. You're waisting my time reading this stupid thread.
Think of it this way. No $$ = NO NS
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Did I force you to read it? No. Did I force you to write that comment? No. Have I ever EVER <b>EVER</b> once said that I wouldn't pay for NS? No. I'm not going to simply ignore my fears about one of my favorite games being twisted by a corperation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ryo, why are you so obsessed with the idea that he is "selling it off". Retail does NOT equal rights. You can make a deal to have your product packaged for retail without giving up the development rights. Maybe it won't be as sweet as deal, but that's what negotiations are. You have got to drop this overzealous preconceived notion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So lets say Flayra keeps his development rights when NS goes retail. A few months later, Flayra is approached by his bosses. They tell him that sales figures are down, and the central reason accourding the their research is that the marine commander has a role that is too complex. They request that he dumb down the commander's role to make it easier for new players. Hypothetical case to be sure, but this is the kind of thing I'm concerned about. I hardly think it's simply a "notion" that the principal aim of a company is to make money, correct? Hence, a company marketing a product will do everything they can to make it more popular and more widely appealing to a greatest range of people possible. In pursueing this, they may force Flayra to make changes he did not want to make.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You make it sound so simple -- Flayra gets a steady paying job and continues to MAKE AN ENTIRE GAME in his spare time. I have a job in the game industry, and I know how laughable of a concept "spare time" is. When you are working 60 to 80 hour weeks, believe me, there is very little time or energy left over for anything else. If you think 1.1 is taking a long time to come out, remember, that is WITH Flayra devoting 100% of his time to it, all day long, every day. Now think how fast NS would evolve if he can only spend a few hours a week on it.
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The main reason I said this was that it would seem from my uneducated point of view that much of the ground work for NS had already been done, hence meaning that subsequant patches would not be too hard to code. The fact that Flayra is changing so much in 1.1 however kinda thwarts that notion, but is every patch going to be as big in scope and re-design as 1.1? Maybe I overestimate Flayra's abilities when I say that coding simple patches after 1.1 for gameplay tweaking etc would be an easy task. Perhaps I am wrong; I'm not a programmer. I honestly didn't think Flayra was going to change as much as he did in 1.1, but by the same token I hardly think that the next 4 or 5 patches after 1.1 are going to make changes on the same scale.
I'm rather enjoying this <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
More than just a free game, it's a <i>really good</i> free game, far better than most of the junk I've paid good money for over the last two decades...
However, electricity bills don't pay themselves, and food doesn't just magically appear in your fridge y'know? I reckon if they can get some money out of this and continue to improve and expand upon the concept , that's great.
You've already been told it will always be a free download, so what exactly is the problem here?
This thread reminds me of people who decide "insert band x here" are "teh sellout corporate hoes!11" because they finally sell more than two records and don't have to live in a transit van anymore...
/2p worth
Ahh, the smell of irrational paranoia and generalization. It is not America which is aggressive, it is certain elements of leadership currently in control that are aggressive. It is not France that is passive, but certain elements of French leadership that are passive. It is not the entire of capitalist corporate America which is corrupt, but certain companies with questionable business practices. Lose the paranoia, the generalization, and the gross over-simplification of America's economic subtleties or else no amount of logic will ever have any affect on you. This is advice, not a flame. Open ze mind to all possibilities, rather than clinging to what appear to be generalized presuppositions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They request that he dumb down the commander's role to make it easier for new players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, unless he signs a deal giving them ultimate say, he says NO. Yes, the word NO does exist in American language. The only way I can see you reaching these conclusions is one of two assumptions. That Valve has the Unholy power of Satan, which they don't. Or that Flayra is weak-willed and stupid. Do you think he's stupid? Because I have to admit that is what you are heavily implying.
I tell you what I'd like. Obviously this game has now evolved like the Kharaa do. I'd love to see some "back stories" like in 1.0x's manual. Stuff about TSA Frontiersmen coming to a ship and knowing, from past experience, that you only get an Onos with 3 hives. Then they see 8 of them with one hive. "OMG! They've gone all Darwin on us! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Run away!"
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<b>** Yo, tone it down like three notches. ** </b>
So because I make one irrelevant comment than indicates my distaste for certain aspect sof US foreign policy I must be "paranoid and irrational". I happened to use the term "America" because it is America's policys. The leadership of the US represents the US on the world stage, and as a result the actions of these men and women are seen as the actions of America. I don't generalise, where the hell did I say that? Oh, but because I don't salute the US flag and kowtow to Bush I must be illogical and paranoid. I do not make any blanket statements about US foreign policy: I simply indicated that I don't like certain aspects of it. You seem to be the one with the generalizations: anyone who is against US foreign policy must therefore be against the US, freedom, justice, liberty and Mom's Apple Pie. What the hell do you know about me and my views on the US? One sentance. Before you go and brand me as the next Anti-christ, open YOUR mind to the strange and mysterious possibility that your glorious leader commited a completly illegal invasion.
By the way if the discussion forums were still open we could spar properly. <b>** Be nice. ** </b>