Aliens Vs. Marines
Arawn
Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12954Members
Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12954Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What do you think?</div>I play alien all of the time...there are only a few occasions where I've chosen marine, and still, I think that the game really is unbalanced in favor of the aliens. This will be even more so with the release of 1.1. The aliens have the advantage in the beginning, they can kill marines usually in one hit and two at the most...lets face it, camping is not an effective way to win, this is why sensory first doesn't work, but aliens can camp a forward position which forces marines to move forward or slowly lose the game. Aliens excel at melee combat so more often than not it is the alien that emerges victorious because A. They're powerful B. They are DAMN small and C. They are REALLY fast. I'm not sure if you can even call this a complaint, because as I've said I am alien all the time, and who doesn't enjoy winning? Look at the changelog for 1.1, aliens get all the upgrades and major overhaul, the marines get command mode fixed as well as various other things that don't really make an impact on gameplay. Right now the only strategy I've seen that works against GOOD aliens most of the time is a HMG/HA rush. Even with the best of teams there are always a few stragglers, leaving the rest of the team to spread out between the hives to guard them, usually everyone masses at one hive, leaving the other completely undefended, which later results in a surprise marine base right next to the second one. The once uncoordinated marine team is now suited up in the best of everything, and they don't want to lose it, plus it raises morale, so they suddenly charge en masse to the least defended hive and let me tell you, there is absolutely no way to repel an entire HMG/HA marine team before they get SOME structures up, usually a tf some turrets and a siege. Even then, the welders and the comm come together to make them nearly invincible. Problem is that a comm almost never does this, and lets face it it's kind of cheap. Oh crap I'll finish this post later, have to go, I'll edit it :P JUST WAIT.
Comments
However, when it come to group play marines are nearly unbeatable. Lets look at some of there strenghts..
Command: A good comm can track aliens by sound and vector a marine team straight to gorges, grouped aleins etc. He can also tell you where a hive is with in seconds of the game starting. Once your in the fight he can spam health and ammo to make sure you STAY in the fight.
Guns: Marines start the game with ranged weapons and end the game with the best ranged weapons. Early on good marines will travel in groups, Work hard to engauge aliens in long halls and try to flush out skulk camps before the aliens can spring traps. If they have motion its nearly impossible to suprise them. As the game goes on marines just get better. Level upgrades on there weapons makes sure that even the lowly LMG is a killer and a level 3 HMG will kill even the almighty Carapaced Onos in seconds. It takes less then 30 seconds to kill a hive with a level3 HMG and a large portion of that is the reload time.
Ressystem: All the marines res goes into one pool which means that they can expand Fast. It also means that marines can fight on with only one res tower (although its never easy)
Cheap upgrades: Peaple dont stop to think about this but marine up grades are cheap! 45res for an protype lab (which you need anyways) lets you spend 20 res to give EVERY marine either lev1 guns or lev1 armour. If they die they always come back with it and the dont have to waste time evolving which means they get back into the fight fast (more on this in a second)
Tactical speed: while a ground slogging marine is far from fast for only 7res you can give him a JetPack which make him fast, really fast. With phase gates marines travel at the speed of light, It doest get anyfaster then that.
A well laid out phase array means that marines can go anywhere on the map quickly. It allso means that they dont have to waste time guarding places. If the marines team is good the com will warn them there out post is getting hit and they can phase right to it.
Marines allso have a speed advatage in getting back into the fray once there dead. They spawn quickly and with any up grades they have baught. If they need heavy gear it takes only a sceond for the Com to drop them and for the marine to pick em up. With in 10 seconds of die a marine can be back in the game with HA/HMG,welder.......(and for 6 more res they will have full ammo)
Eh. Depends on the map and marine strategy.
All other things being equal, a skulk will win at close range, a LMG marine will win at long range.
IME, half the game is the marines trying to advance (while still keeping their distance advantage) and the aliens trying to advance (without exposing themselves to marine fire). Every time the rines round a corner or open a door, they risk losing that distance edge. Every time an alien runs into an open room or down a long hallway, he risks losing his melee advantage.
That's about it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's about it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err... Apparently you have never been mine rush as aliens before =/
Honestly, a half-decent marine team should be owning skulks early game. THink about it; it takes 9 lmg shots to kill an uncarapaced skulk (I believe) and like 5 pistol shots. Even if the skulk catches you by surprise, you can still sometimes manage to survive long enough to get the few bullets needed to kill it in. I really don't see how the aliens have any advantage early game, perhaps you just play games with really newb marines or something
and let's not even get into health and ammo spamming while spawnkilling a hive...
Anyway, on to the topic. Kharaa was made to have the melee advantage, and Marines were made to have the long range advantage. They are nearly complete opposites in this idea, as most forms of Kharaa are melee, and no sane Marine would go around knifing a Fade. There is a strategic balance, as Deacon described, where the Marines must do their best to keep at a distance, while the Kharaa hide in the shadows waiting for a marine to get close enough to kill. Unless its Onos, who just rushes in and tramples everything <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> . <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's about it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err... Apparently you have never been mine rush as aliens before =/
Honestly, a half-decent marine team should be owning skulks early game. THink about it; it takes 9 lmg shots to kill an uncarapaced skulk (I believe) and like 5 pistol shots. Even if the skulk catches you by surprise, you can still sometimes manage to survive long enough to get the few bullets needed to kill it in. I really don't see how the aliens have any advantage early game, perhaps you just play games with really newb marines or something
and let's not even get into health and ammo spamming while spawnkilling a hive... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without going into too much detail, and without getting mired in a long discussion, it typically takes the kharaa far shorter to get level three carapace than it takes the marines to get an equivalent upgrade. For most of the game it only takes two bites to kill a marine. For a lot of the time, it's going to be l3 cara skulks verses marines armed only with lmgs who only take two bites to kill. And level three weapons do not negate carapace (well... maybe they do, but in my experience I don't notice any difference in weapon levels.)
Therefore, until the marines get jetpacks, hmgs, ha, motion tracking or have good shotgunners, the kharaa have an insane advantage. I don't think this is a bad thing, because they do have to sacrifice economy development time to get cara sooner.
teamplay
opponent
skills
If you lack 1st or 3rd then you'll lose
If 2nd is too strong you'll lose
This kind of topic can be debated for days...weeks....years... centuries...
Point is, NS is good, Flayra and the design team and all playtesters are working their **** off to make 1.1 even BETTER.
Untill then, change your approach to playing if you think you're only losing, or join the marines if you feel sorry for them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, well, my point is, stop whining <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sure, there are some unbalances, and there are advantages for both teams, when push comes to shove :
***BOTH TEAMS ARE ABLE TO WIN THE GAME WITH FAIRLY EQUAL CHANCES***
Because imho: teamplay = victorious
'nuff said I think
Cheers
(in relation to the first post)
NS is a game, games are meant to be fun, win or lose, now Defence Chambers are not fun as they lead to the easy win option. Most of us that have been playing for the last 6 months prefer to change the order and the win ratio still stays the same, because u adapt.
Why will 1.1 sensory be used for "camping" (the worst use of the old deathmatch term, thanks to CSplayers for messing up the termanology), when i first heard about its abilities i thought "Wow, place a sensory near to the marine start, and they will have a hard time even getting out their base"
along the same lines, movement chambers are a more offencive upgrade set than defenece chambers.
something i saw on a server once:
*gorge dropped a MC first*
Skulk: what n00b droped MC first
Admin: me, are you trying to say you are so bad at this game that you cant win on any structure other than DC?
*Second chamber was SC to prove a point*
*Aliens win*
I see it so often that silence is the best first upgrade available, combined with scent of fear next and you become a hunter with more possibilities.
The real reason DCs are chosen first (appart from the structure healing aspect, a second gorge can do this btw) is because players like the rush, they dont want to play with stratagy or tactics, they just want to rush rush rush, now if you've seen me play, you'll know i dont die often, now ill add a secret, i dont upgrade my defence trait, at all as skulk.
But let's not drift too much into the "which chamber is better" area, although I totally agree with you.
Glad to see there are more likeminded ppl <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With regards to overall game balance the Resource Model is what screws it up. It's balanced at 7-9 players per team or so (less in clan play), more players and Marines get way too much resources, with less, they get too little.
The rest of the game is so dependant on resources that it is impossible to make any generalisations except for the start, and possibly, the "finish" if all are maxed out, in which case Mr Onos and his friend The-Amazing-Bile-Bombing-Fade have the advantage.
(in relation to the first post)
NS is a game, games are meant to be fun, win or lose, now Defence Chambers are not fun as they lead to the easy win option. Most of us that have been playing for the last 6 months prefer to change the order and the win ratio still stays the same, because u adapt.
Why will 1.1 sensory be used for "camping" (the worst use of the old deathmatch term, thanks to CSplayers for messing up the termanology), when i first heard about its abilities i thought "Wow, place a sensory near to the marine start, and they will have a hard time even getting out their base"
along the same lines, movement chambers are a more offencive upgrade set than defenece chambers.
something i saw on a server once:
*gorge dropped a MC first*
Skulk: what n00b droped MC first
Admin: me, are you trying to say you are so bad at this game that you cant win on any structure other than DC?
*Second chamber was SC to prove a point*
*Aliens win*
I see it so often that silence is the best first upgrade available, combined with scent of fear next and you become a hunter with more possibilities.
The real reason DCs are chosen first (appart from the structure healing aspect, a second gorge can do this btw) is because players like the rush, they dont want to play with stratagy or tactics, they just want to rush rush rush, now if you've seen me play, you'll know i dont die often, now ill add a secret, i dont upgrade my defence trait, at all as skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
K i agree with most of what your saying but "camping" the marines at the start won't be effective coz as soon as obs is up you are detected.
Choosing an offensive upgrade like cara is as much a tactic as if u chose sense or movement, people prefer different types of playing either camp and wait or run in headlong, with cara u can sit and wait and at the crucial moment you have the armour to get up closer and remove rine, or you have the ability to just run in take a few more bullets than usual and remove rines. The DC caters to most ppl and is currently better for structures and aliens than the other two upg chambers.
A different chamber is fun and can take the rines by suprise but it depends on the skill level of the teams as to who will win. Im a notorious wall runner and prefer celerity to silence. If your good at wall running you can dodge most bullets and find cover behind lights, obstructions etc. And end up goin for the final smackdown when he's goin for the reload.
But i cannot possibly understand your reasoning to not choosing an upgrade from a DC that sounds just plain stupid to me... Why not use the advantage?? Unless u play against complete n00bs or are god himself i dont care who you are, the upgrade helps no matter what. Whether it helps kill marines or just absorbes more bullets so the rine has to do sumthing about that later, it still helps. Unless ur just cocky and saying ur too good to use DC upgrade while ur a skulk that's just sad and i reckon u'd be pwned by any real decent rine.
- RD
Take carapace, if you expect to be shot at loads
Take regen if you cant be bothered going to the hive to heal
Take redemption if you feel lucky enough to actually live long enough to teleport....
on all the official maps, i have more hidey holes than i can count on my hands.
Generally marines dont check the areas, Im not going to reveal them, ill let you all find your own.
Usually the thing that kills me is someone else trying to hide with me, running about like a scared rabit, making so much noise a partialy deaf person listening to death metal could hear him.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> i just play to have fun, and my idea of fun is scaring the hell out of the marines, not playing predictably. The same way you like to wall run <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
STD-S][LveRW0lf*
As of 1.04, carapace is by far the best first upgrade to get. It's the one thing that gives you the best shot at actually beating the overpowered marines.
The developers know this, the top clans know this, Flayra himself knows this, anyone worth half a damn in this game knows this. Yet there will always be people who say otherwise just for the sake of being different, either to feel/make themselves important or because they're just plain blind, I don't know and I don't care enough to find out.
I've won with movement first or sensory first more often than I care to remember, but unlike the variety preachers, I can actually admit that they were fairly crappy marines. Yes, I won, but not due to superior playing on my team's part nor due to the "usefulness" of movement/sensory as first chambers. It was solely because the marines plain and simply SUCKED.
I've won by gorge rushing dozens of times, yet you don't see me post it here as a viable strategy that people are "too stuborn to try" just because I managed to make it work on random disorganized crappy pub marines, do you?
1 on 1 Newbie situation the Alien can have the advantage because:
- Without map knowledge it is easy to get up behind a Marine
- Aliens don't run out of ammo
Knowing where to look and where the enemy comes from is more important to Marines.
Also, on a newbie or bad server, the COM won't be doing his job. Marines won't get upgrades, won't work together, won't know where/when to ttack, so Aliens have a pretty good chance of getting a second hive up if they only have ONE decent player (gorge) on the team. Once hive #2 is up it's probably gonna be Fades againt unupgraded Marines and that's not gonna end well for Marines.
So yes, on crappy or newbie servers, Aliens have the advantage but as "everyone" knows, when the teams are decent-sized and decent-skilled the Marines are way ahead early-game. It's easy to realise because I bet most of you would have no trouble as a Marine if you came up against yourself as a vanilla skulk.
As of 1.04, carapace is by far the best first upgrade to get. It's the one thing that gives you the best shot at actually beating the overpowered marines.
The developers know this, the top clans know this, Flayra himself knows this, anyone worth half a damn in this game knows this. Yet there will always be people who say otherwise just for the sake of being different, either to feel/make themselves important or because they're just plain blind, I don't know and I don't care enough to find out.
I've won with movement first or sensory first more often than I care to remember, but unlike the variety preachers, I can actually admit that they were fairly crappy marines. Yes, I won, but not due to superior playing on my team's part nor due to the "usefulness" of movement/sensory as first chambers. It was solely because the marines plain and simply SUCKED.
I've won by gorge rushing dozens of times, yet you don't see me post it here as a viable strategy that people are "too stuborn to try" just because I managed to make it work on random disorganized crappy pub marines, do you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, on games without horrendous team sizes (for example 6v6 to 8v8) gorge rushing is surprisingly viable if everyone on the alien team knows what he is doing. The top clans use it fairly often for the win or at least force a relocate. Even the EU team used the gorge rush.
As of 1.04, carapace is by far the best first upgrade to get. It's the one thing that gives you the best shot at actually beating the overpowered marines.
The developers know this, the top clans know this, Flayra himself knows this, anyone worth half a damn in this game knows this. Yet there will always be people who say otherwise just for the sake of being different, either to feel/make themselves important or because they're just plain blind, I don't know and I don't care enough to find out.
I've won with movement first or sensory first more often than I care to remember, but unlike the variety preachers, I can actually admit that they were fairly crappy marines. Yes, I won, but not due to superior playing on my team's part nor due to the "usefulness" of movement/sensory as first chambers. It was solely because the marines plain and simply SUCKED.
I've won by gorge rushing dozens of times, yet you don't see me post it here as a viable strategy that people are "too stuborn to try" just because I managed to make it work on random disorganized crappy pub marines, do you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
to be perfectly honest with you, i cant understand how people can get so much anger and rage at the mention of not using carapace first, its really sad, that your life revolves arround a little upgrade on a game.
If you need carapace to kill a marine you are a very very poor skulk.
and yes we know that carapace is considered to "best" upgrade, the reality is we chose either to not take a DC upgrade or pick a diff chamber first to really show how EASY you people are to put down. I would rarely use an evolution (other than gorge) without carapace, but thats to protect my investment. (i have been known to go regen silence fade for some right arse kicking 70+ scoring, but thats not really why i play NS)
I play lerk mostly, i will take carapace and adren/celerity, and marines are not overpowered for a lerk tbph, at one hive lerk literaly is king, less than a second or so of spiking and marine dies.
the reason why people may feel the marines are overpowered is because in their eyes only "n00bs ever go lerk because its a sucky class". Lerks may have less HP but their overall damage absorbtions means it takes more bullets to kill.
Lerks are a support class yes? What is there to stop lerks supporting lerks? nothing, every player on the team goes lerk (except gorge)= one dead marine team VERY VERY easilly at one hive. Many people who play lerk know <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> > <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fade is a super skulk, Lerk is graceful, elegant, and powerful.
So if your team has (atleast) 2 people who can lerk, the game is unbalanced towards aliens, early on, then when the marines get higher levels its about equal, Spikes lerks are and should always be the counter to JP HMG rushes. Later in the game Fades can counter the JP HMGs if thats what u want, but in the rush stages, dont stay skulk and die, go lerk and spike the fools to the walls!
I'd like people to trust the developers and testers of NS to already be aware of the concerns you addressed that were valid and to be already doing something about it.
It's a shame the discussion is heading that way, because I tend to think this is perhaps the most important topic the strategy boards can discuss. No, seriously.
I submit that any successful strategy (marine or alien) is derived from an understanding of each team's strengths and weaknesses. Effective strategies are, in all cases, methods for maximizing your team's strengths while denying the enemy access to theirs. And, of course, exploiting your enemy's weaknesses while mitigating yours.
Unfortunately, for this to work, the discussion needs to focus on the playing field as it <i>is</i>, not how it <i>should be</i>.
#2 I lerk almost all the time. 1 hive lerks are decent enough, but lack of adrenaline makes it almost impossible to attack with them efficiently. I mean yeah, I'll fly in and bite kill one marine and then... oops... can't fly anymore. I die. Sitting back and spiking with no umbra is just asking to be pistoled to death in .5 sec, unless you're sitting on top of a hive or WoL.
#3 How is this a flame fest? I don't see anyone attacking anyone else or using ad hominem's.
Marines have the advantage. The reasons why the marines loose so much in certain servers is because of #1) skill of the commander
#2) teamplay skills
If the marines have a good commander, they are very hard to beat. Likewise, if the marines have a bad commander, they are pretty easy to beat.
And secondly, if you play together as marines, they are a powerful force, which can be healed, restocked, and ready to kick butt in a short time after some drops by the commander.
I was playing with a really good commander and a marine team that was sub-par compared to the rest of the gaming community on NS, and we won because of the commander. He knew they didnt know how to play very well and had them build and protect the base, and stay grouped. They basically kept the alien team busy, while I scouted and got some resource towers and such.
Soon enough he gets jetpacks and hmg's researched. From then on he dished out the combo to the rest of the team when they spawned, but otherwise followed me around. We both had mic's and could communicate easily. Because of the commander, I took out 2 hive locations without other teammates. I would fly around spraying hmg bullets into the alien structures and land briefly while the commander dropped ammo and health. Then I would head back up into the air and kill some more stuff before landing briefly in other spot while the commander dropped more health and ammo.
Once the fades and defensive chambers were wiped out, they would respawn as skulks who couldn't do anything to hit me.
Point being made here is, (assuming you have a decent marine team), marines win or lose, depending on how well the commander can 'command'.
I can only bow at those who are good commanders. Keep it up. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->