<!--QuoteBegin--nicuss+Apr 10 2003, 07:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nicuss @ Apr 10 2003, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm running with v_synch on because i can't stand the frame tearing. also refresh fix for win2k, and fps_max 100. My fps is between 40 and 100 depending on how much stuff i look at, but it never jumps from 100 to 50 and back, always moves in 1fps increments. Weird... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then im pretty sure V_sync is acctually off... Sure you have it on ? For the graphic mode you're using ?
what pisses me off is: my monitor's max refresh rate is 60, and the max resolution is 1024x768...and it's not even that old. So, I have vsync off, and my frame rate's kinda jumpy, but it's still goood. I get from 50 -100 depending on what's goin down.
Lo roob.... Do you still play kingpin? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
p.s. Ive tried both and i prefer Vsync on! I get 100 fps all the time using either setting but using vsync prevents what is refered to as 'Visual tearing' when you turn to quick...
No, I haven't playing Kingpin in years. Shame really cos us Mamas kicked complete 4r53 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
heh... I was in both MAF and UW clans back then <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Doesn't look like it egg... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, it helped me a lot and that's enough <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thx for the info dude My question is regarding the ATI catalyst drivers I have a 9700pro, with 3.0a WHQL cats in the openGL properties I can only set Vsync as "always off" or "Application Preference" No way that I know of to force vsync (like with the Nvidia Drivers) So, since I cant force it and I believe HL does not have an option to turn it on/off I am stuck with 99fps, but with image tearing as a result of vsync off
So I guess my question is do you know of any way with Ati based cards to Force vsync or a way within HL to force vsync
Thanks in advance <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
One thing about fps affecting jetpack fuel regeneration speed: It doesn't. It does affect jetpack <i>thrust</i> however. Someone with high fps will go from empty fuel bar to full fuel bar in the same time as someone with low fps. However, if they both hold jump, the person with high fps will slam into the ceiling, while the person with low fps will barely get off the ground.
Now, from about 70 fps and up, the fuel that you regain while in the air gives enough thrust to keep you stuck to the ceiling.
If you don't believe me, try it out. Just play around with your max fps and see what it does for your jetpacking.
> Half life has a default maximum refresh rate of 72. This can be increased to a maximum allowable value of 100, using the fps_max setting in the console (type "fps_max 100" without the " in console).
This is a minor squabble, but that's not the refresh rate, but a simple frames per second cap. If you have a 60 Hz refresh rate with vsync on and set fps_max to 100, you'll get 1 to 60 fps.
Most importantly, you didn't accurately explain what vsync actually is. It's a very useful tool to remove screen tearing, where a single refresh of the monitor will yield the upper half as one frame and the lower half will yield the next frame, causing the frame you see to be out of sync and "torn." It's very noticable on low FPS systems, and annoying on high end systems. Due to the poor colours in HalfLife, you barely notice it unless you're in a brightly lit room with contrasting darkness. However, if you load up Serious Sam or another colourful game, it hinges on the border of frustration to have the jerky movement of screen tearing. Vsync helps users fix that by coordinating the framebuffer and the monitor refresh since frame buffers are usually far faster than a monitor. Yes, what you said about vsync is mostly true, but that's not why it is there in the first place.
Lastly, I'm almost sure that vsync *never* goes in divisional increments. If you get 73 FPS constantly on a 85 Hz resolution, you will see 73 different frames per second, with the missing refreshes simply a rehash of the prexisting frame until the framebuffer is full again. The frame buffer simply stores the frame and awaits the next refresh cycle on the monitor, hence the "syncronization" in "vsync." The maximum framerate you will receive is the refresh rate, but once below the refresh rate, you lose FPS in decrements of 1 unit, not 5 units or 1/2 the refresh rate.
Hmm, rereading my comment, I wasn't convinced myself that it was all that useful, so here goes.
Take the refresh rate on the maximum resolution, 60 Hz by industry standards.
That means 60 monitor frame draws per second, but let's say you have a graphics card that churns out frames at 50 FPS.
1 second / 60 Hz = 0.0167 1 second / 50 FPS = 0.02
The only time where the frame and the monitor will display an entire frame (rather than a split one) is when the two numbers above are at a multiple of eachother.
Assuming refresh and frame buffer are start off syncronized, the only time where you'll see an entire frame will be whenever there is a multiple that equals eachother. This means at 0 second, and at 0.01 seconds, and any multiple onwards. Basically, a large fraction of the frames you see are only partial, and torn up frames. Thus you're rarely seeing a full, complete frame as you should be.
With Vsync on, it rounds up the FPS numbers to the nearest refresh rate numbers. Instead of outputting (note: frame buffers output, not display. Monitors display.) the frame buffer 0, 0.02, 0.04, 0.06 seconds, you'd have outputs at 0, 0.0333, 0.0500, 0.0667 seconds, respectively. Thus an entire frame will always display at the loss of minimal framerate, but a 60 Hz cap at the maximum resolution supported by the monitor.
That's all true Anavrin But if it dosen't change in 1/2 and then 1/3 etc of the FPS then how come it does ? lol Strange explaination but im tired <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I mean Seeing as how it does I really don't see the point in arguing that it dosen't ? That's like going around trying to convince people the sky is green And second I don't think vsync acctually lowers the FPS directly It's the GFX-card that waits for the next frame thus lowering the FPS indirectly
OK, I'm wrong in my first post. My second post proves that.
You do lose frames at a fraction. But it's at like... 2/19 or so. 1/2 is simply ridiculous. You'll lose a frame whenever the framebuffer has a frame completely buffered up and another frame becomes completed, overwriting the framebuffer with the new frame.
Hmmmm, right, well I've read through the updated post and i now only have 1 question.... For those of you that have/know about NVRT, the NVidia equivalent of RefreshLock, do u have to have it in an open window all the time for it to do its job, there doesnt seem to be a way to minimise it to the system tray or even minimise it at all. Do i really have to have it open ALL the time?
I have to pass on that one. Use refresh lock, it works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
yup i use refresh lock for XP too. it minimizes to your system tray (takes about 3 mb ram) but u dont need it all the time, just for HL and it works fine.
According to the NVRT docs, the author didn't like having to have "yet another program running in the background and sitting in the system tray". So he wrote NVRT to be a run-once and reboot thing. It supposedly changes your registry settings to allow the desired refresh rates so that you DON'T have to keep it running all the time. It works fine like that for me.
I fully concur with Chadseh, this thread is EXTREMELY useful and i think we should keep posting to keep it on the front page until they web it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> But maybe they don't want to web it because 1.1 will cure the fps problem, i stil think it should be webbed though, because it informs people about vsync and refresh rates, which are very important.
Edit: Thanks for answering my question PetitMorte <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
My fps is between 40 and 100 depending on how much stuff i look at, but it never jumps from 100 to 50 and back, always moves in 1fps increments. Weird... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then im pretty sure V_sync is acctually off...
Sure you have it on ?
For the graphic mode you're using ?
p.s. Ive tried both and i prefer Vsync on! I get 100 fps all the time using either setting but using vsync prevents what is refered to as 'Visual tearing' when you turn to quick...
My question is regarding the ATI catalyst drivers
I have a 9700pro, with 3.0a WHQL cats
in the openGL properties I can only set Vsync as "always off" or "Application Preference"
No way that I know of to force vsync (like with the Nvidia Drivers)
So, since I cant force it and I believe HL does not have an option to turn it on/off
I am stuck with 99fps, but with image tearing as a result of vsync off
So I guess my question is do you know of any way with Ati based cards to Force vsync
or a way within HL to force vsync
Thanks in advance <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It does affect jetpack <i>thrust</i> however. Someone with high fps will go from empty fuel bar to full fuel bar in the same time as someone with low fps. However, if they both hold jump, the person with high fps will slam into the ceiling, while the person with low fps will barely get off the ground.
Now, from about 70 fps and up, the fuel that you regain while in the air gives enough thrust to keep you stuck to the ceiling.
If you don't believe me, try it out. Just play around with your max fps and see what it does for your jetpacking.
> Half life has a default maximum refresh rate of 72. This can be increased to a maximum allowable value of 100, using the fps_max setting in the console (type "fps_max 100" without the " in console).
This is a minor squabble, but that's not the refresh rate, but a simple frames per second cap. If you have a 60 Hz refresh rate with vsync on and set fps_max to 100, you'll get 1 to 60 fps.
Most importantly, you didn't accurately explain what vsync actually is. It's a very useful tool to remove screen tearing, where a single refresh of the monitor will yield the upper half as one frame and the lower half will yield the next frame, causing the frame you see to be out of sync and "torn." It's very noticable on low FPS systems, and annoying on high end systems. Due to the poor colours in HalfLife, you barely notice it unless you're in a brightly lit room with contrasting darkness. However, if you load up Serious Sam or another colourful game, it hinges on the border of frustration to have the jerky movement of screen tearing. Vsync helps users fix that by coordinating the framebuffer and the monitor refresh since frame buffers are usually far faster than a monitor. Yes, what you said about vsync is mostly true, but that's not why it is there in the first place.
Lastly, I'm almost sure that vsync *never* goes in divisional increments. If you get 73 FPS constantly on a 85 Hz resolution, you will see 73 different frames per second, with the missing refreshes simply a rehash of the prexisting frame until the framebuffer is full again. The frame buffer simply stores the frame and awaits the next refresh cycle on the monitor, hence the "syncronization" in "vsync." The maximum framerate you will receive is the refresh rate, but once below the refresh rate, you lose FPS in decrements of 1 unit, not 5 units or 1/2 the refresh rate.
Take the refresh rate on the maximum resolution, 60 Hz by industry standards.
That means 60 monitor frame draws per second, but let's say you have a graphics card that churns out frames at 50 FPS.
1 second / 60 Hz = 0.0167
1 second / 50 FPS = 0.02
The only time where the frame and the monitor will display an entire frame (rather than a split one) is when the two numbers above are at a multiple of eachother.
60 Hz Refresh: 0, 0.0167, 0.0333, 0.0500, .0667, 0.0833, 0.1, etc...
50 FPS: 0, 0.02, 0.04, 0.06, 0.08, 0.1, 0.12, 0.14, etc...
Assuming refresh and frame buffer are start off syncronized, the only time where you'll see an entire frame will be whenever there is a multiple that equals eachother. This means at 0 second, and at 0.01 seconds, and any multiple onwards. Basically, a large fraction of the frames you see are only partial, and torn up frames. Thus you're rarely seeing a full, complete frame as you should be.
With Vsync on, it rounds up the FPS numbers to the nearest refresh rate numbers. Instead of outputting (note: frame buffers output, not display. Monitors display.) the frame buffer 0, 0.02, 0.04, 0.06 seconds, you'd have outputs at 0, 0.0333, 0.0500, 0.0667 seconds, respectively. Thus an entire frame will always display at the loss of minimal framerate, but a 60 Hz cap at the maximum resolution supported by the monitor.
But if it dosen't change in 1/2 and then 1/3 etc of the FPS then how come it does ?
lol
Strange explaination but im tired <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I mean
Seeing as how it does I really don't see the point in arguing that it dosen't ?
That's like going around trying to convince people the sky is green
And second I don't think vsync acctually lowers the FPS directly
It's the GFX-card that waits for the next frame thus lowering the FPS indirectly
OK, I'm wrong in my first post. My second post proves that.
You do lose frames at a fraction. But it's at like... 2/19 or so. 1/2 is simply ridiculous. You'll lose a frame whenever the framebuffer has a frame completely buffered up and another frame becomes completed, overwriting the framebuffer with the new frame.
So maybe not with vsync in general but at least with HL
Or if you're a Buddhist, then from bad karma for sincerely using the term "n00b," thinking it isn't belittling of others?
You'll have to ask a philosopher for the answer to that.
But he aint all that good that hes cranked up to be...
Roob
Jower
For those of you that have/know about NVRT, the NVidia equivalent of RefreshLock, do u have to have it in an open window all the time for it to do its job, there doesnt seem to be a way to minimise it to the system tray or even minimise it at all. Do i really have to have it open ALL the time?
It changes the drivers to only support the refresh rate you choose
Thus it can't be changed ( so don't you freckin change em all to 2000 ! )
hehe
But maybe they don't want to web it because 1.1 will cure the fps problem, i stil think it should be webbed though, because it informs people about vsync and refresh rates, which are very important.
Edit: Thanks for answering my question PetitMorte <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
You look at what happened to coil !