I think if they want to add a 15 res research fee for using medpacks thats fine, however I believe if they do that, there should be a structure (or perhaps an upgrade for the armory) that allows health to be dished out. I dont think that it is fair to give the marines 0 healing options in the early game, especially if the skulks are putting a lot of pressure on the marine base and marines are being harassed when they expand. At least with the health distributing structure, a marine can run back to base after taking a bite or a few parasites. One of the counter measures to a skulk rush (or any attack for that matter) is the commanders ability to place health on the marines. Also health dropping is vital for expanding as well (assuming one is not playing against low quality players), so its a good idea in that respect to slow down rapid marine expansion, but at the same time, the research option is also hurting their defense as well.
i dont think that is a good idea...And what is this about "Maybe the aliens can survive for the first 10 minutes of the game" Dude, I dont know where you are playing, but in the server that i play in, I have never seen a marine rush be successful. I think that not being able to drop medpacks in the beginning of the game makes the initial skulk rush MUCH easier to do. I mean, 2 bites and your marine is dead =(
Maybe you have a limited # of medpacks to use until you actually get the upgrade. Like 15-20 medpacks to drop, then you HAVE to get the upgrade to drop more.
IMO tweaking stuff like that doesnt really help anything. The game doesnt need to be changed all that much, I still think that 1.03 is perfection...
I think this is a really bad idea unless you allow people to use it like an armory to get health. I've been thinking there needs to be a building to get health from anyway.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><b>SoBe.Dragon</b> Posted on Apr 9 2003, 12:34 PM</span> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what is this about "Maybe the aliens can survive for the first 10 minutes of the game" Dude, I dont know where you are playing, but in the server that i play in, I have never seen a marine rush be successful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In competitive matches, marines win <i>alot</i> due to an lmg rush. If you'd like an example of such a match, view this <a href='http://www.gblhosting.com/~er/demos/eve_red.zip' target='_blank'>demo</a>. It was the championship game of an invitational tournament where all the top clans played.
These two teams both bring a lot of early pressure with a rush and both (should) have won with this tactic.
Even on public servers I've been seeing a lot more rushing tactics lately that really seem to be seeping into publics from clans.
<!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Apr 9 2003, 12:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Apr 9 2003, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At least with the health distributing structure, a marine can run back to base after taking a bite or a few parasites. One of the counter measures to a skulk rush (or any attack for that matter) is the commanders ability to place health on the marines. Also health dropping is vital for expanding as well (assuming one is not playing against low quality players), so its a good idea in that respect to slow down rapid marine expansion, but at the same time, the research option is also hurting their defense as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering how helpful the ability is, and how little it costs to research it, i don't really see this as a 'having to make do without' situation. I imagine this type of ability being researched very early in the game, possibly right after the initial 100 res distribution.
As i see it, the change leaves you 15 res worse off in the early game, and prevents health dropping for the research period. (Which i can't imagine taking much longer than about 1 alien rush). I can see the problems you're talking about, but your comments work around the idea that you wont be able to drop health till mid game. I agree that it is a very helpful ability, which is why i think it will always be taken very early, and why Flay will probably allow it to be researched early on. If for example, the only requirement for this upgrade is an armoury (From what was said i get the impression that the upgrade is researched from the CC, not as an icon on the arms lab). Then this could be taken immediately after a normal starting build. The key difference being that the research time (What do you reckon, a minute?) prevents its use on a very early rush, and the armoury requirement prevents its use on a relocate. It just leaves you 15 res worse off :\
I dont know if this has been suggested already, but what if it took a small while to 'construct' the medkits (and ammo boxes) before they appear? Say about 3 seconds, or perhaps longer with an option to upgrade the tech so they 'build' faster. This would at least help prevent medkit spammings to keep marines invincible.
bleh still if the marines are using that much res on medpacks either: a) you let them get that much res and deserve to lose b) the comm uses up alot of res and can't buy anything else
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--Epoch+Apr 9 2003, 11:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epoch @ Apr 9 2003, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think if this change is implemented the Commander should have to research ammo drops as well. Or, maybe not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ammo drop are available at the start of the game, no upgrades.
Talesin: What version and where is the console??? wherever I tried to type /connect irc.gamesnet.net it said unknown command
N1ght: What damn server selection screen? mIRC has about 6 of them... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the correct command, if i'm not mistaken, is /server
I think you should have an armory before the upgrade becomes available.
And how about it being available even if you lose the initial comm chair...like how weapons upgrades stay without an arms lab. Or are you going to make it so weapons/armor upgrades only stay with the Arms Lab?
someone stated that it would take a chunk out of the initial 100 res setup. which made me think; this is going to disrupt almost every single rush. marines will ahve to wait for this to finish before they dare send their expensive jp rushers out...
that and dropping an instant sensory to cloak your hive will make them not know where to rush at all! the game will have to be PLAYED!
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
edited April 2003
<b>** Be nice. **</b>
Personally, this change is great and im sure it will be taken nicely by the community, and i find it sad more people cant think about that before they try and discount it with their own ideas.
What I want to know is how long will it research? If it is 1 minute, it is hardly noticeable like JPs are. Since you research this straight from the CC you can research it right off the bat. So it just takes a small 15 res from you earlier. Big deal. It would stop relocation and basically anything really early like rushing as soon as you spawn. However, if the research time was 2 minutes or so, then it would have a positive effect, but I don't know this so I'll shut up now...
And what is the deal with some of you and time based healing... there would be no point to a commander giving out med support mid-battle.
"and to the people going into the crap about time based healing or crap like that, way to stay on topic. "
I mentioned it as _one_ alternative that could be used, because I don't really agree with THAT solution to medpack spam rushes at the beginning of the round. I don't agree because: - it will basically be a required upgrade at the very beginning of the round, marines will need _some_ form of healing when trying to secure outposts etc - skulk rushes will be much more potent if it isn't upgraded (making it even more a required) - there are better solutions (imo) to medpack spam/relocation etc (but i wont go into my ideas at the risk of going off topic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I like it. It adds another possibility for strats.
ie: your marines are crushing the aliens, then you don't need medpacks early, get an rt instead, but if you find that the marines are dying alot then getting medpacks would be more important
I like the idea of researching medpack drops before you can drop them. But i also think they should be able to be dropped at anytime in the build radius of the comm chair. I hope thats implemented.
<!--QuoteBegin--Merkaba+Apr 9 2003, 02:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba @ Apr 9 2003, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont know if this has been suggested already, but what if it took a small while to 'construct' the medkits (and ammo boxes) before they appear? Say about 3 seconds, or perhaps longer with an option to upgrade the tech so they 'build' faster. This would at least help prevent medkit spammings to keep marines invincible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it would just encourage pre-spamming, meaning you drop medpacks 3 seconds in front and and behind them, that way either way they run they can get health.
I usually prespam a hive since medpacks and ammo packs last a fair ammount of time, its a lot easier than trying to micromanage, but at the same time it costs a lot more resources.
Actually, I think this plus a 1 second delay would be cool, not a 2-5 second delay <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm not worried about the actual dropping of a medpack, just how they tend to be SPAMMED. If you've never seen medpack spam, it basically covers the floors. Same with ammo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like the idea of researching medpack drops before you can drop them. But i also think they should be able to be dropped at anytime in the build radius of the comm chair. I hope thats implemented. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that's a good idea... might make newbies not leave the base tho.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And sure, you could save the 15 res, if the marines are pounding the aliens (ie. marines skill >> aliens skill) but then it wouldn't really matter that you save the 15res because with a half decent comm you're pretty much guaranteed a win anyways. However if the 'rines are taking a beating no doubt they will need some form of healing to actually get anything completed (aliens have gorges and the hive from the start for healing). So it kind of creates a slightly bigger advantage for marines kicking **** at the start, you would think, right?
Meh. Perhaps just have an upgrade for the ability to drop medpacks in a certain radius of the hive (gives more power to the cc to hack through the nano-gridlock surrounding the hives). Would mean no medpack spamming for rushes to the hive in the beginning. But marines wouldn't be crippled without healing while trying to secure outposts or even defending the base from skulk rushes etc.
Perhaps it's a counter-balance to a new alien ability in v1.1.
I think we can all agree on one thing, this change was made to hamper those early rushes. Perhaps what is important is not the res cost but the research time. At the very least if the marines were planning some sort of early rush strat they would want that upgrade.
I recall past threads with Flayra expressing his desire to simplify the alien resourse system and make multiple gorges possible. Maybe in the new version gorges will be able to put up defences earlier which will help counter those spawn camp attempts. This med pack upgrade only helps to discourage early rushes. I'm operating on the assumption that a couple of OCs, a heal spraying gorge and some skulks can repel 4 clanners, without upgrades, unsupported by med pack drops.
I think if the marines want to make any sustained deep penetration action they will need med pack support so they will have to research med packs before they head out. In the time it takes for the marines to build all the necessary buildings to research med packs and finish researching it, maybe the aliens new res system will allows them to put up a formidable enough of a hive defence that it wouldn't be worthwhile for the marines to hit the hive early.
In the clan scene what I think is a little boring yet admittedly effective is sending an assault team early on and push into the hive, harass and eventually spawn camp the aliens. The time it takes for the aliens to recover, if they do, the marines have build 1-2 RTs and teching up furiously.
If the gorge can throw up som defences (and we don't know what goodies await us in v1.1) that could prevent the marines from shooting them as they appear that would at least give the aliens a chance.
Just some thoughts... this is one change in many, I'm sure in the big picture this fits in a way we don't yet know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... I'm operating on the assumption that a couple of OCs, a heal spraying gorge and some skulks can repel 4 clanners, without upgrades, unsupported by med pack drops.
I think if the marines want to make any sustained deep penetration action they will need med pack support so they will have to research med packs before they head out. In the time it takes for the marines to build all the necessary buildings to research med packs and finish researching it, maybe the aliens new res system will allows them to put up a formidable enough of a hive defence that it wouldn't be worthwhile for the marines to hit the hive early. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Small problem. If the aliens had enough time to put up a formidable hive defense, they'd have enough time to secure few key locations around the map instead. Obviously that would cripple the marines ability to expand, to get res, to upgrade etc.
Comments
Just something to think about.
Maybe you have a limited # of medpacks to use until you actually get the upgrade. Like 15-20 medpacks to drop, then you HAVE to get the upgrade to drop more.
IMO tweaking stuff like that doesnt really help anything. The game doesnt need to be changed all that much, I still think that 1.03 is perfection...
[13:05] <eve|playerone> bleh
[13:05] <eve|playerone> i solo hives on pubs
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what is this about "Maybe the aliens can survive for the first 10 minutes of the game" Dude, I dont know where you are playing, but in the server that i play in, I have never seen a marine rush be successful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In competitive matches, marines win <i>alot</i> due to an lmg rush. If you'd like an example of such a match, view this <a href='http://www.gblhosting.com/~er/demos/eve_red.zip' target='_blank'>demo</a>. It was the championship game of an invitational tournament where all the top clans played.
These two teams both bring a lot of early pressure with a rush and both (should) have won with this tactic.
Even on public servers I've been seeing a lot more rushing tactics lately that really seem to be seeping into publics from clans.
will comms hold back, hoping the marines are skilled enough to hold their own?
or will 15 res early be a wise expenditure?
it make people think.... and thinking is good
Considering how helpful the ability is, and how little it costs to research it, i don't really see this as a 'having to make do without' situation. I imagine this type of ability being researched very early in the game, possibly right after the initial 100 res distribution.
As i see it, the change leaves you 15 res worse off in the early game, and prevents health dropping for the research period. (Which i can't imagine taking much longer than about 1 alien rush). I can see the problems you're talking about, but your comments work around the idea that you wont be able to drop health till mid game. I agree that it is a very helpful ability, which is why i think it will always be taken very early, and why Flay will probably allow it to be researched early on. If for example, the only requirement for this upgrade is an armoury (From what was said i get the impression that the upgrade is researched from the CC, not as an icon on the arms lab). Then this could be taken immediately after a normal starting build. The key difference being that the research time (What do you reckon, a minute?) prevents its use on a very early rush, and the armoury requirement prevents its use on a relocate. It just leaves you 15 res worse off :\
a) you let them get that much res and deserve to lose
b) the comm uses up alot of res and can't buy anything else
ammo drop are available at the start of the game, no upgrades.
Talesin: What version and where is the console??? wherever I tried to type /connect irc.gamesnet.net it said unknown command
N1ght: What damn server selection screen? mIRC has about 6 of them... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the correct command, if i'm not mistaken, is /server
I think you should have an armory before the upgrade becomes available.
And how about it being available even if you lose the initial comm chair...like how weapons upgrades stay without an arms lab. Or are you going to make it so weapons/armor upgrades only stay with the Arms Lab?
that and dropping an instant sensory to cloak your hive will make them not know where to rush at all! the game will have to be PLAYED!
Personally, this change is great and im sure it will be taken nicely by the community, and i find it sad more people cant think about that before they try and discount it with their own ideas.
And what is the deal with some of you and time based healing... there would be no point to a commander giving out med support mid-battle.
I mentioned it as _one_ alternative that could be used, because I don't really agree with THAT solution to medpack spam rushes at the beginning of the round. I don't agree because:
- it will basically be a required upgrade at the very beginning of the round, marines will need _some_ form of healing when trying to secure outposts etc
- skulk rushes will be much more potent if it isn't upgraded (making it even more a required)
- there are better solutions (imo) to medpack spam/relocation etc (but i wont go into my ideas at the risk of going off topic <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
ie: your marines are crushing the aliens, then you don't need medpacks early, get an rt instead, but if you find that the marines are dying alot then getting medpacks would be more important
I think it would just encourage pre-spamming, meaning you drop medpacks 3 seconds in front and and behind them, that way either way they run they can get health.
I usually prespam a hive since medpacks and ammo packs last a fair ammount of time, its a lot easier than trying to micromanage, but at the same time it costs a lot more resources.
*realizes it's already dead*
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
[edit] becuz u have to protect ur goods someway, without medpacks at start an skulkrush could be awful... [/edit]
The skulkrush isn't the issue here. The issue is the marine rush.
Now that's a good idea... might make newbies not leave the base tho.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And sure, you could save the 15 res, if the marines are pounding the aliens (ie. marines skill >> aliens skill) but then it wouldn't really matter that you save the 15res because with a half decent comm you're pretty much guaranteed a win anyways. However if the 'rines are taking a beating no doubt they will need some form of healing to actually get anything completed (aliens have gorges and the hive from the start for healing). So it kind of creates a slightly bigger advantage for marines kicking **** at the start, you would think, right?
Meh. Perhaps just have an upgrade for the ability to drop medpacks in a certain radius of the hive (gives more power to the cc to hack through the nano-gridlock surrounding the hives). Would mean no medpack spamming for rushes to the hive in the beginning. But marines wouldn't be crippled without healing while trying to secure outposts or even defending the base from skulk rushes etc.
Thank you Flayra.
At least reduce the damn price. Or cut down on the price of IPs again.
I think we can all agree on one thing, this change was made to hamper those early rushes. Perhaps what is important is not the res cost but the research time. At the very least if the marines were planning some sort of early rush strat they would want that upgrade.
I recall past threads with Flayra expressing his desire to simplify the alien resourse system and make multiple gorges possible. Maybe in the new version gorges will be able to put up defences earlier which will help counter those spawn camp attempts. This med pack upgrade only helps to discourage early rushes. I'm operating on the assumption that a couple of OCs, a heal spraying gorge and some skulks can repel 4 clanners, without upgrades, unsupported by med pack drops.
I think if the marines want to make any sustained deep penetration action they will need med pack support so they will have to research med packs before they head out. In the time it takes for the marines to build all the necessary buildings to research med packs and finish researching it, maybe the aliens new res system will allows them to put up a formidable enough of a hive defence that it wouldn't be worthwhile for the marines to hit the hive early.
In the clan scene what I think is a little boring yet admittedly effective is sending an assault team early on and push into the hive, harass and eventually spawn camp the aliens. The time it takes for the aliens to recover, if they do, the marines have build 1-2 RTs and teching up furiously.
If the gorge can throw up som defences (and we don't know what goodies await us in v1.1) that could prevent the marines from shooting them as they appear that would at least give the aliens a chance.
Just some thoughts... this is one change in many, I'm sure in the big picture this fits in a way we don't yet know.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think if the marines want to make any sustained deep penetration action they will need med pack support so they will have to research med packs before they head out. In the time it takes for the marines to build all the necessary buildings to research med packs and finish researching it, maybe the aliens new res system will allows them to put up a formidable enough of a hive defence that it wouldn't be worthwhile for the marines to hit the hive early. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Small problem. If the aliens had enough time to put up a formidable hive defense, they'd have enough time to secure few key locations around the map instead. Obviously that would cripple the marines ability to expand, to get res, to upgrade etc.