Pro Gaming - A Sport?
Nemesis_Zero
Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Some of you may have read the latest <a href='http://www.gamespy.com/top10/april03/progaming/' target='_blank'>Gamespy Top Ten</a>, entitled "Reasons Pro Gaming Sucks".
Basically, I can fully agree with reason #2 and #1, and haven't got enough insight to adress the rest. Anyway, what do you think?
Basically, I can fully agree with reason #2 and #1, and haven't got enough insight to adress the rest. Anyway, what do you think?
Comments
sport ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spôrt, sprt)
n.
<b>Physical</b> activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
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i think you used the wrong term
incidentally, if youre winning money + prizes and still having fun, then its okay by me
Still, reasons #1 and #2 apply to EVERY sport, unfortunately <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's just too bad people don't want to respect the fair play rules to let the other have fun , and admins are forced to use bunch of anticheat/banning scripts and the like on their servers...
#2 has an important point too , we nerd gamers spend way too much time on the forums discussing about the game balance <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Took the words right out of my mouth. I was going to say something like, "what this guy is bitching about applies to ALL sports."
Competition can NEVER be fair. In order for something to be fair, you'd have to control every last subatomic particle. That doesn't mean that competition is bad, or shouldn't be fun. It can really stir some powerful emotions that everyone should experience at least once in their life.
But people that just sit around and dwell on numbers and stats, and create their little ladders and trophies and champions, they just annoy me. By the time something is organized enough to be a "sport", the situation is so contrived that it no longer mirrors reality, and yet, despite all this, STILL isn't fair.
Playing on computers requires complex thinking, and that can be interesting. Playing sports requires some of that, but is a little more restricted simply because without tools, the body only has so many cards to play. For that reason I find computer games more interesting in terms of strategy than I do physical sports. On the other hand, physical sports are never-the-less fascinating because they remind us of what we ARE, and where we came from.
A huge part of sports is ALWAYS going to be genetics, age, access and time to train, etc. People get all gushy about how some dude is far-and-above a "hero", with a "heart of a champion." Whatever. I can tell when an athlete has put a lot of time into training, and I respect that, like any kind of hard work and dedication. But come on- it isn't like Joe Blow could be a Michael Jordan if only he had the heart of a champion. Unless he got to work in a genetics lab. When I was in high school I had a buddy that trained like crazy for track and cross country. Almost a religious level of extra training and enthusiasm. And, after a while, he beat me, thanks to his training, and my desire to skip training whenever possible. I respect him greatly for that. But, since the guy was so pigeon toed, he couldn't get very close to the "top," and any long-legged lean person who put in a similar amount of training would easily have smoked him. There's nothing fair about it.
I tend to think of most professional athletes as statistical outliers. In addition to putting in tons of training, they also possess genetic gifts. Does that make them interesting to watch? Yes. Does that make me look up to them? Only if I like their personalities- the ability to be at the top of charts is just luck and opportunity, combined sometimes with hard work.
Omg my favorite!
Having been to numerous Quakecons and CPL events in the past, I can personally testify that the crap ins aid article is completely true. Throwing money or prizes into the mix can be very, very bad. People go crazy when there is serious cash or a new PC involved. People stop having fun. The entire atmosphere becomes quite negative. For example, at last year's Quakecon there was an RtCW tournament and from what I heard (and it wasn't much) there was some sort of situation with the 2nd place team doing something towards the 1st place team. I mean hell the 2nd place guys still got like $1,000 each, they should be happy. I didn't even get a bottle of Bawls...
I think one of the biggest two points against gaming is the ones the article author listed as #9 and #10. Its just plain BORING to watch other people play. I mean sure, I may watch the final 1on1 for the grand prize, but that's a bit different than seeing 16 people deathmatch, especially when I could just go back to my computer, sit down, and actually PLAY. And if it was on TV? Pfft. Comedy Central and Cartoon Network would be much much more captivating.
And in regards to games changing, really if you think about it it is quite a problem. I mean think of when the basic rules of football have changed. I don't know much about football, but I know it was probably a really really long time ago, and probably not a lot of frequent changes ever. Yet here we have DOOM being the game, now Quake, oops now Quake 2, oh hey looks its a BETA VERSION of Quake 3 (Q3Test) yeah that's good for tournaments, oh now full Quake III which is almost completely different than Q3Test, ah now lets try this CS thing and oh look at that, UT2003, and hey what's this WarCraft thing, lets throw it into the mix...
The longest run-on sentenance in human history has now hopefully enlightened you into the problem of gaming vs. sporting. :P
I say keep it a hobby. If its not fun, what's the point? I think I was perhaps the only one to actually have FUN in the Quakecon 2001 Quake III tournament. That's cause I was going 100% gauntlet. **** everybody else of. Mainly though I just feel sorry for the guy who came in last place, as he couldn't even beat the idiot running around gauntletting people... :P
And if we're going to disqualify video gaming as a sport, I am going to insist that figure skating, synchronized swimming, gymnastics, high diving, ballroom dancing, and any other sport that involves winning becuase you bribed enough judges get removed too. At least when a game of Q3 is done, you tell who won becuase one guy fragged the other guy more times, and you don't have to consult a panel for who looked more stylish to see who won...
Oh, and golf. It's not a sport if it's primarily played by people on Social Security. Outta here.
10: Who says a sport needs to be physical. I see that most of these comp. games require a lot of skill to do well. From bhopping coordination, to mouse aiming, to strategy amongst others. Take football for example. Sure it requires strategy on the part of the coach. But quite a bit of the team is there to do not much more than take hits.
9: How fun is curling to watch? How about bowling? Shuffleboard? Bocce (sp)? Yet these are all considered sports somewhere, and not all sports are "spectator sports." I personally cant stand to watch a game of football, so does that make it suck?
8: Comp games are changing at the rate that 1) the technology is changing and 2) the game companies put them out. This industry is still in its infancy. Baseball has been around for ~100 years. Of course the game has changed throughout its time. Think of that period of "playtesting" that occured when bball was first being introduced. Of course there is no tradition or legacy. The computer game has only been around in its current form for about 8 years. Try building a big tradition in that short time.
7: Of course there are cheaters. There are cheaters in every sport. Steroid users in baseball and football. Recruitment violations (from the little league world series to college sports and beyond). Bribing of judges (think olympics). Small breaking of rules which go unnoticed. Whining (do you think that pro b-ball players can go from lying on the ground after a "foul" to running around if they are really injured?)
Think any sporting event will be fair. If a baseball game is played in Death Valley, and one in Denver colorado, the games will still be different (air resistance, gravitational variations, etc).
6: Oh, and all athletes all have personalities? Like the football player who playes only so he can beat people up? The sterotypical dumb jock. But I will admit that the majority of gamers (myself included) dont exactly have the best personal skills. Besides, these pro athletes that you see are the best of the best, and have, above all else, the ablility to market themselves. These pro gamers do not require it, most are only really worries about winning, and from that they draw fame.
Of course girls will be sought out. The gaming industry is marketing mostly to boys ages 13-25. Not the most well known age for sexual maturity and discretion.
5: Like I said before: What about the non-mainstreme sports (pool, bowling, squash, figure skating). I am sure that there are not too many from mainstream society that watch these, and yet again, these are still sports.
4: Like he said, the games are constantly changing. Couple that with the fact that almost all games are different and you have varying rules. And again, I am sure that the rules in pro sportswere constantly changing when they were first being developed.
3: NBA WNBA ....
PGA WPGA .....
MLB ......
PBL ......
NFL XFL EFL....
Not to mention all of the many college, highshcool, and ametuer leagues.
2: OMG. What of the sports fans that riot when their teams loose. What of the homicidal mobs that run amok when thir nation's team looses the World Cup. What of the ... I could go on, but if you have read to this point, you dont really care any more.
1:I am sure that a baseball player is not really doing it for the fun of the game when he turns down a contract from his current and favorite team so he can be picked up for an extra 10 million $ by the team down the road. And is baseball not supposed to be all about the fun of the game and whatnot. I am fairly sure that most pro athletes would pack their bags the minute that their multimillion dollar contracts were cancelled, so are they really playing for fun?
1 and 2: Like has been said before: this applies to most competetive sports as well.
One of the biggest things here is that pro sports encoumpasses only the best of the best, while pro gaming really encoumpases anyone that wants to and has the time to divote to it.
But that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Sorry if I offended anyone by calling a sport they liked non-mainstream. It was done to make a point.
SHUFFLEBOARD! ILL GET YOU FOR THAT!
/me attacks feydtobalck.
Eh hehe... Well, er, what else can I say, did you ever try to curl? Er, it may have the smallest stands I've ever seen in a professional sport, but, er, just because its boring, er, I mean strategically engaging, doesn't mean its not a tough sport. I just gotta say, baseball is boring as heck too, I have never had a more sleep inducing time than playing left field in high school or trying to watch the World Series without wondering what is on the other channels and why they call it the World Series when the only other country possibly involved is the Canadians, and we only have 2 teams in the whole league! Yeah, I'm looking at you Americans! Hehe... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Bring it!
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bring it! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe, who can resist your charms Monse! I am thus, bringing it...
Ice Hockey, very popular in the northern hemisphere of this planet, so most of Europe, Russia, and Canada and that silly lil place called the USA <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Oddly enough, organized violence on ice has its appeal. Where as curling is just organized... Well, numbers do not an interesting game, sorry sport, make. Except for maybe with soccer/football, damn that sport has nearly every country involved, and with some really riotous fans, makes for great coverage there. Oh, I do hate to burst your bubble there Monse, but not everyone (aka billions) are into your national past time, they are more likely into the afore mentioned sport there, soccer/football. Oh wait, so you're saying its a World Series is called that because of who watches, not who is involved? So that would make the audience very important to making it a professional "sport", possibly even more important than who is competing, yes? Hmm, thanks, I was looking for some way to tie this into the topic of this thread and subsequently my own post, funny how things work that way...
And as far as Canadian sports and music and other realms of culture go, it really is nice how you overlook how much of that stuff has made it into your culture south of the border, and you don't even realize it. Is that proof that we don't have culture or merely a clear demonstration that our culture has this habit of easily blending into other cultures? I apologize, we have this bad habit of looking at ourselves as human, rather than just a nation... Oh wait, <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oxymoron' target='_blank'>oxymoron</a> means that Canadian and sports/music stand in contradiction to each other? Er, right, just keep on trucking there Monse, I think you were trying to find a more informed word like moronic or perhaps silly. I'm not sure where you're going anyways, with saying that a country that founded basketball and ice hockey stands in contradiction with sports, or how a country where a good number of your scientists, actors, mucisians, teachers, doctors, engineers, programmers, and comedians come from north of the border somehow stands in contradiction with venues of music. Hehe, your ignorance of how your countries wealth attracts my country's nationals and thus influences your culture to a good degree is is simply amazing and rather reassuring that we can continue to make money off of your fellow countrymen if we are continued to be thought of in such a demeaning light, as abhorent to culture which your flaunted "oxymoron" suggests. Hehe, this strikes me as, another ten dollar word, ironic. Why? Because what you flaunt as being American culture is really Canadian, wouldn't that make American culture an oxymoron? Hehe... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After serving as McGill's Athletic Director, [Dr. James Naismith] moved on to the YMCA Training School in Springfield, Massachusetts, USA in 1891 where the sport of basketball was born.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really care if he was from Ontario, he invented basketball in America. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for hockey, its origins, as best I can tell, are not in Canada but in northern europe. However, the only place that can seem to provide any documentation on being Hockey's originator is in fact victoria, canada, as highlighted in this very pathetic <a href='http://www.hockeychic.com/history.html' target='_blank'>webpage</a>.
Not that I understand at what you're getting at, as hockey is an awful sport, and professional basketball compared to college ball is about as close to the original vision as a bottlerocket is to the apollo missions. I mean, isn't it against the rules to travel or double-dribble? You could never tell by watching the Lakers, FFS... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not that I was ever arguing that Candians didn;t invent sports, just that invented lousy ones. And I won't drag this so far off-topic by bringing up the only famous musicians of the past 20 years like Celine Deion, Sum41, Richard Marx, Brian Adams, Avril Lavigne, or any other grammy-winning canadian artists, as it usually causes a flamewar <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .
To get back on topic... ehhh, WTH were we talking about again, before canadian nationalism took hold?
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Oh, and hockey rules! Don't cry foul just because your country sucks at it. And World Series baseball is an oxymoron! When you start seeing teams from central america, the carribean, and japan playing in it as well, give me call. Oh, and american colonists ripped that damn sport off of the British, and football is such a great sport <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> very inventive there, Oh oh, and CFL > NFL, oh oh oh, and your momma! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
the example that I want to use, even though I don't have first hand experience, is CS...from what I've gleaned the leet clans/players make it tough and very hard/annoying to actually have any fun in a game.
Yes, but pro-gaming is fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. The Pro Community is Too Serious<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If pro gaming ever gets real popular the participants will <i>have</i> to be serious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To some extent, that stereotype holds true. Browse any so-called pro gamer forums and you’ll find thousands of derogatory insults hurled towards "n00bs," people either new to the game or folks simply unable to dedicate a significant portion of their life towards developing "teh mad skillz." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd have to disagree, most gamers that make it pro have a professional attitude. Most have sponsors, so to keep the sponsors it would be best to not **** off your fans or any possible fans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Too Many Leagues <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the CPL & WCG are the two big Leagues.
This could be compared to Auto Racing. There are several big Leagues.
F1
NASCAR
IRL
CART
Each is different.
F1 is very big around the world
NASCAR is very big in the USA
There doesnt allways have to be 1 league.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4. Rules are Inconsistent <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Using Auto Racing again as an example.
The cars change over time, just as new games come out over time.
In NASCAR there can be many rules changes in 1 season, just like a game being patched.
How about he takes the slightest glance at south korea and realizes sc is a real professional sport there. That there are sc leagues which show their matches on television and pro gamers making upwards of 50k a year. SC is watched by many spectators and has announcers. This is huge in South Korea if anyone wants to take a look, and whoever wrote that article shouldn't be allowed to express his opinions in any public media outlet ever again.
Let me be clear, I'm not angry because he hates pro-gaming like I hate say baseball. I'm angry that he'd write such a large completely uninformed article without ever doing seemingly any research at all. Then he gets it published at such a large media outlet as gamespy.
The day we play the same bloody game for decades I will perhaps say yes to a future in pro gaming. But for now, while attention deficit kids get bored from a game in months merely, there will never be any. There's a reason they have chess tournaments, and that is because the game is an established institution, recognized worldwide. Same kind of event would have to come for any computer game. Today, Pacman is barely 22 years old, but no one plays it really.
Huh? All the HLTV servers I've ever been on have been very lonely, with no direction toward the action or with a commentator giving the low down on the play by play of what team is doing what and to whom. Or have a director throw up a replay of a crucial moment in the game's momentum, where the actions of some player just turned the tide in favor of their team. I have never once been able to chat with a spectator floating beside me about the amazing move I just saw a sneaky skulk take on that poor marine, or had a commentator describe how the marine team just flanked the Kharaa with that move of going to two hives at the same time, or watched the stats of information bars climb telling me that the marines had these upgrades and Kharaa had these morphs on their scaly hides. Do you see the idea I'm getting at? C'mon Monse, I want to see if I can relate what I feel is missing here properly. Oh, and to the best of my knowledge, I didn't even know there was more than one version of HLTV, is there somewhere I can read up on it?
Your problem with HLTV is not really architectural, it's practical. Most people doing commentary in HLTV are not professional, trained broadcasters. Most people operating the 'lenses' are not experienced cameramen. You are seeing the effects of that.
However, when people with some experience get on the job (or even better, record a match through HLTV then add commentary and edit together the action properly shortly thereafter), it becomes a thing of beauty. Even if they just practice and get good at providing commentary and camera angles in real-time, it becomes an incredibly cool experience. I was watching mere spectator-recorded demo's of a match between Eve and RED clans last night in a game on NS_Nothing. It was just cool as hell to see the entire picture of a match from all those different perspectives and here the conversations of the team members. Watching well-commentaried (word?) games of CS between really good clans on HLTV almost makes me want to play CS again (almost). And it has all the trimmings, like instant replays, slow-motion, overlay maps, etc.
As to your point about chatting with other spectators, I have no real answer. Perhaps start a roger wilco or teamspeak connection with a few friends and watch it all together? You are asking too much of the system, as a technical problem like that from bandwidth and 'spam' control standpoints would be a lot of effort for no real gain.
There is only one real version. I was being facetious.
Oh, and I'm serious about the no anouncer or commentary or director in HLTV, because I geuss I missed out on those HLTV servers that are pulling that off. I'm all jealous (or is it envious) of your experience, where can I go watch that stuff? Also, I find of special note that the experience was so pleasing it _almost_ gave you the inclination to play CS all hardcore again, and in my book, that's pretty significant considering we both know NS kicks CS **** and its only just starting.
Last, but not least, the voice thing should be technically possible, with the announcer(s)/commentator(s) voice being able to go out to all the spectators but the spectators voices not being heard by the commentator(s) so that they can concentrate. Also, having the sound of the commentator's voice at double the volume (or halving the spectators' voices) would allievate any possible drowning affect spectators might have. And for spam, the implementation of the mute function has always been the best answer. I'll just throw in here again, that some stream lined way for spectators to cheer or boo would be totally ideal as well.
I know this is looking like this should be in the idea part of the forums, but what I'm trying to get at, that with the proper audience ease of use, anything can become a professional sport, and that it is possible that gaming can go pro. Take baseball for example, I may be bored to tears watching it on tv, but the few small local games I have attended have been a ton of fun to do with other people. Of course, had I been alone there without friends to talk to, I would've just left, being bored stiff, yet again. Hmm, lets see if I can try to steer my own posts back on topic once in while, eh? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And I agree, having friends to chat with on an especially great play (or just nearby spectators in yuor surrounding seats, like at a ballgame) is a cool idea. I think the RW/Teamspeak option there is a good one, as you can all just watch and cheer and sit on the eges of your virtual seats together.
I think you have cool ideas here (a first in the discussion forums!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> - j/k all) about how you'd like to see the HLTV shows produced. Hopefully it can be put into practice. I am very willing to work with anyone to come up with some stretegies for getting games (especially ladder and league play) rebroadcast on HLTV. Flayra is of a like mind, as he's worked very hard to get HLTV and demo's workingin NS, not just for CAL anti-cheat judges, but for the wider NS community. I am spurred on by your appeals for better service here, and will do something about it through my contacts. GG.