wow thanks flayra for replying - it makes me feel like and educated poster <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> maybe u should sticky this.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> I for one don't think NS will "die" anytime soon. Yes somethings need to be fixed and changed, but that will not stop me from playing anytime soon. I can't wait for 1.1 for come out but untill then I will gladly play 1.0. And I would gladly pay $60 for a NEW NS CD, if the makers ever felt like puting NS on a CD and selling it. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
the argument on how Firearms (and it's demise) is quite similar to NS
-firearms, in pub gameplay, isn't TERRIBLY different from other shoot em ups -there are NO OTHER rts/fps games for NS players to migrate to.
that being said, of course NS *could* die. but with hardcore fans like us, and an INCREDIBLY responsive dev team, it will have a LOT longer grace period for players to abandon it, IMHO.
Believe me when i say... I love NS, and i'm going to keep playing it... Even AFTER it's end, i'm gonna make lan games and play with friens... You don't understand, you make me cry, for me... Ns is my heart, and i hope Flay and all other Devs reads this and understands my Love to their hard work. I mean... My brother hates it but if he won't play it... I'LL MAKE HIM!! Ns shall not die... At least not in my Eyes...
Natural Selection is obviously a great game that is well worth more time than that just spent in the game, otherwise no one would be reading this now. I think the Half-Life engine was a great choice for a free product. Anyone checked Half-Life's stats on gamespy recently? Those numbers alone should make the choice easy.
As for cheaters, if WONIDs could translate into real world street addresses I would go to their homes individually and kill them myself one by one in creative but horribly painful different ways. Until I can get that tracking system perfected, we will just have to take the cheats as they are thrown at us (even some after 1.1). Luckily the very sub-human nature of the cheater makes them not only incompetent and stupid, but poor strategists. This means they will almost always rambo, but unlike a normal rambo they are very hard to stop. The best solution I have seen is to attack them in groups. Their aim-bots seem to have a lot of trouble when it comes to tracking more than one target (make sure you come from two directions). Nothing is more beautiful than seeing them do that inhuman twitch as two skulks drop on a cheater simultaneously and bite his face off because he can't choose a target.
Unfortunately for Natural Selection the very nature of the game itself will deny it the huge fanbase that Counter-Strike currently enjoys. Counter-Strike's learning curve is somewhere in the area of 5-10 minutes, whereas Natural Selection's is more like 2-3 hours. They obviously both require a lot more time than that to master, but as we all know, very few people ever come anywhere close to mastery. Many people simply do not enjoy the high level of thought required to play Natural Selection. All that decesion making and prediction make NS almost as bad as reading for some people, and we all know reading is stupid and pointless right? The sad fact is that most people are too impatient or too dim to get any real pleasure out of NS. What can we do to solve this problem? I say it is not really a problem at all. Through this wonderful tool know as the internet we are always able to find a game where we know some at least semi-intelligent people will be present to challenge us. We can live with a small but active community, and the patches that we have been assured are comming will be more than enough to keep most of us around.
As for the overall life-span of NS, it would be hard to judge at this early stage. Even with the seldom updates the DoD team has produced that mod has kept many of its players (including me) and grown at a reasonable rate. This was achieved however by the extremely good quality of the DoD teams work in their few and far between releases. The thing I believe will keep this mod ticking is the dedicated development team. There have not been many mods where the developers interact as much with the public as this one, and this is a very good sign. In the long run it is up to us to determine the lifespan of NS. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to see it live a good healthy series of years. Tell your friends (especially strategy gamers) about NS. I have created 4 diehard addicts so far. What about you?
NS is amazing, I would play it more often if not for my poor internet connection and the lack of good quality servers around. I would rather see 1.1 sooner than later, but then a poor release of a patch might turn people off of playing altogether.
I play DOD too, but have been playing it less and less often as I get increasingly angry at the domainance of K98 (AKA the WWII railgun) snapshotting, and BAR whoring, plus the same maps I've played a thousand times before. I would really like to see DOD beta 4 soon, but I don't think it's going to happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Mar 21 2003, 06:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Mar 21 2003, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well no one knows what lies in future for NS, but I can guarantee it won't be going away any time soon. I plan on continuing to update it for years. Maybe there will be a way to make a sequel on a new engine for retail as well. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll try to cut down some of the extra features and get 1.1 out sooner rather then later, but I've been incredibly busy recently. Thanks for the kind words! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well you heard it here first <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, you say you gonna cut down on some extra features to get 1.1 out sooner? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Hey man, dont sweat it! just take your time with it and make it right.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Believe me or not but I heard a NS sound on Chapelle Show. It was a episode a while ago, the one with the yoda sketch (and it was during the yoda sketch too). NS is getting into pop culture.
Sure it wasn't a sound that both bought from the same commercial sound library? You'll hear loads of sound used in all kinds of movies that are essentially the same. Main culprit is shattering pottery - that particular sound is used SOOOO often.
When i began to play Natural-Selection all i had to say was "WOW"
Great communication, teamwork and gameplay.
but a few months later the game just got boring as we had people who didnt know how to operate as a gorg or commanders who just sat in the comm chair.
Now you join a NS game and you hear "WTH IM GORGING", "You better be a damn good gorg", "GET OUT OF THE COMM CHAIR NOOB!", or "This comm sucks!".The communication is no more and the gameplay is gone after all the complainers. I know theres not a way to put a stop to this but that is ruining the game.
This game is based on 'If my team is good', if your team is not good then you loose.
<!--QuoteBegin--newuser+Mar 21 2003, 11:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (newuser @ Mar 21 2003, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When i began to play Natural-Selection all i had to say was "WOW"
Great communication, teamwork and gameplay.
but a few months later the game just got boring as we had people who didnt know how to operate as a gorg or commanders who just sat in the comm chair.
Now you join a NS game and you hear "WTH IM GORGING", "You better be a damn good gorg", "GET OUT OF THE COMM CHAIR NOOB!", or "This comm sucks!".The communication is no more and the gameplay is gone after all the complainers. I know theres not a way to put a stop to this but that is ruining the game.
This game is based on 'If my team is good', if your team is not good then you loose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are partly right, but try not to play on public servers because you will experience this all too frequently. Clan servers are better..as long as they dont go for the dreaded five minute game ender...(tech rush! nooo!) wait to 1.1, because everyone will be a n00b again. getting lost in Eclipse 1.1 will be mildly embarrasing, hehe...i can hear it now..WTH! where did Maintenance go!
I think NS needs more gameplay types, like TFC had the basic CTF gameplay, but a few maps with origional different types, NS needs a few different map types which are different enough to provide varitey, but don't detract from the main game.
If it were made possible for mappers to pre-construct buildings, then you could have a map where the marines had to hold off an alien assualt for a certain length of time (to develop a virus, or something) and the aliens could gain extra time by destroyng secondary objectives (power station, supercomputer etc)
not as a new main mode, just as a fun ocasional distraction.
Other fun maps could be a "hunt the ONOS" with all the aliens getting no respawns, but start out as ONOS with 3 hives up and 1 of each upgrade chamber in each hive. The marine's job is to hunt them down (before the ship docks with a spacestation or something) and kill them, possibly with the marines starting in a vent base so the ONOS can't just kill them all.
I'm not saying I don't like the current game (other than JPs beign stupidly dependat on framerate) but some variety would be fun!
Aliens vs Aliens and Marines V Marines has been confirmed...haha, i beat you all too it...i know you were going to all post this...<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Instead of fans losing interest in the game becuz of 1.1 taking so long they could also just hibernate till 1.1, atleast thats what im gonna do if this game bores me (witch it really doesnt, and i never had this with any other game), I will never leave NS, thats for sure, I mean the longer a update takes the better it could be, just have patience.
This game belongs at the top with all the other A games, wich I dont see a lot lately to be honest, most games now are ripped off <b>bad</b> and are just made to get the developers rich without adding something to the gaming community, I dont know wich game I should play if I didnt play NS, how much quality games as this are there now a days? Where are the games that made u laugh/cry, that hit u straight in the hart, that made u really feel u were in it?
This game has hit me in the hart and i know it has done the same for a lot more ppl. (the last time a game really hit my hart was gta1 and Thief/Systemshock2 and of course Halflife)
[edit] omg I totally forgot about HL for a sec [/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--newuser+Mar 21 2003, 06:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (newuser @ Mar 21 2003, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now you join a NS game and you hear "WTH IM GORGING", "You better be a damn good gorg", "GET OUT OF THE COMM CHAIR NOOB!", or "This comm sucks!".The communication is no more and the gameplay is gone after all the complainers. I know theres not a way to put a stop to this but that is ruining the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know what you mean, and I believe that it is as a result of balance. Overall in NS, the balance is shaky at best. For the marines if you have a bad comm you lose. For the aliens more than one gorge (or a bad gorge) and you lose. The game doesn't have any 'forgiveness' for mediocre players in key roles.
On top of that, because of balance issues, the alien team feels they need to play a PERFECT game in order to stay competitive, let alone scape up a win.
I'm not sure if fixing some of the balance issues will correct this problem, but it would be a great start. The game needs to be a bit more 'forgiving' of people playing key roles for that problem to diminish.
heh, Flay, if it comes to it, charge 12 dollars a month..
ill pay my man, ill pay,
Oh btw, it would be a shame if like Flay died in a car accidnet or something :-/.. omg, think happy thoughts think happy thoughts!, flay dont die!
omg omg omgogmgomg..
Ego
[FACT] - Ill be at funeral ( proably to fight comprox and coil <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I have heard of people complaning about pistol scripts and what not but...nothing to bad. I don't hear calls of cheating in NS anywhere near as much as I do in CS so...that's a major plus...so far my only concern is voice comm spammers..but good admin's help there big time. I try for large servers and even on 24 players servers there isn't to much lag...enough where it's still a good game to play on so. 20 seems to be the limit depending on the server.
I think most things will be cleared up in 1.1 and from what I have seen since I got here the Dev's are excellent as responding to the community so...if we think of a problem...they will fix it. I think I'll be playing this for a long time.
Counter-strike is right now suffering from boredom. People are bored, not all of course, but many of those who played it for a long time. Natural Selection will of course bore some, but so far I enjoy the game still in spite of the obvious flaws it has in balance. Because I still get to play some rather enjoyable games when against people of the right mindset. Frankly, I hate playing against clanners with the "must win at all cost mentality". Last night I played on a server, public, where some where definitely "clanning" by using all the dirty tricks you can use on the ns_nothing map. Lucky for us we started in cargo hive, and it was only after we repulsed perhaps the 6th wave of attackers they decided to try something else. Like vent shooting cargo hive with a jp hmg (how CAN you defend that vent?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->) or siegeing viaduct from the red room. But we won as aliens, and it was a very exhilerating game because in the end. But as alien we always felt that it was only the marine's mistakes that allowed us to live, rather than our own skills.
Now, later I commanded a ridiculously exciting game on Bast. Took ages, but it involved the aliens getting two hives and us getting loads of res and fighting the aliens all over the map before they started to get fades. Then we got HA squads, assaulted a hive, took it, assaulted another hive, was defeated. Regrouped, assaulted it again, and got it, and then after much delaying fencing (they had spammed the map with OC chambers) we finally laid siege to the last hive but not without losing some HA'ers in the process. I specifically did NOT go for the brutal super rushes because, well, they suck. You get about 20 minutes of frustrating gameplay for the aliens. I don't live to frustrate my fellow players. Players that only play by those rush only strategies on pubs suck too.
So for 1.1 Flayra and the testers will create a rather open game, that will be balanced slowly and perhaps not fully untill after release. Because they now know that balance is very difficult to design in advance, it must be created after. And as it is now 1.04 is skewed towards marines for many reasons and patching further would not do much. Therefore a new approach with 1.1, as Flayra said.
After ns dies, I script an ns mod for Unreal Tournament 2007 since then everyone will have them super computers that can handle ultra graphics, or we could just script an ns mod right now for Alien Vs. Predator 2. Or am I wrong, I don't think lithtech ever released source code free.....
<!--QuoteBegin--Shadowcat+Mar 23 2003, 02:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shadowcat @ Mar 23 2003, 02:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After ns dies, I script an ns mod for Unreal Tournament 2007 since then everyone will have them super computers that can handle ultra graphics, or we could just script an ns mod right now for Alien Vs. Predator 2. Or am I wrong, I don't think lithtech ever released source code free..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont understand why popl want Ns to be ported to some UT engine (2k3 or whatever), dont ppl understand that we will lose gameplay??? Ok so the graphics are superb, but the gameplay would be even worse then it is now...
SuBAusNS Forum AdminJoin Date: 2003-02-18Member: 13723Members
The future of NS? As Flayra said, who can say, but I must admit it's a game I'll be playing for some time to come, regardless of the balance issues, much to the detriment of my other pursuits in life, I still can't help staying up till 5:00am to place NS, even though I have much more ‘important’ things to do, like starting my own software company.
Those games that play back and forth and get the heart really pumping and will you to fight with everything you have, although few and far between on public servers, are in my opinion worth the myriad of one-sided games you play. I agree very strongly that its success will be heavily dependent on its developers commitment to continually expanding it and balancing out the issues, but I'm confident that they do have the willingness to keep at it. I know if I created something this freakin cool, I would be pretty chuffed with myself and want to fix everything the community finds wrong with it and keep them interested.
NS is a VERY ambitious project, and one that breaks new ground in the RTS / FPS ground as far as I know. It is to be entirely expected that such an ambitious project is going to have many balance issues and game play problems from the outset. Nothing at the vanguard of anything is ever perfect. If the development team are willing to stick to it, all the loyal users who find the layered, complex and strategic game play of NS exhilarating will stick around for the results.
I know the learning curve is steep, but once you start getting immersed into the NS world there isn't any game I know of that competes with it in terms of involvement and diversity. No longer is my ability to 'point and shoot' the sole dictator of the enjoyment I can get out of a game... which suits me perfectly, because I'm not that great at the pointing and shooting business.
Yes, the tech rush is a problem. Yes, games on some maps always seem to play out in exactly the same way. Yes, the amount of teamwork required doesn't make it as much fun for those only interested in their frags. But the heavy emphasis on teamwork in this game is exactly what makes it so much fun in the first place to those who are keen on it, and to dissuade from that at all will ruin the experience. There is something quite special about running around in tightly knit units of 5 or so marines, covering each other and completing objectives together. There's even something cinematic and awe inspiring when it's 5 guys with HA + HMG, welding each other and mowing down everything in their path. That said, there is also something great about meeting a bunch of your skulk buddies in a specified location and rushing the marines together to offset their steady advance, or patiently taking out a Turret Factory sitting on a ledge as a lerk somewhere.
I think Martigen's well articulated '<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=20615' target='_blank'>uber suggestion</a>' should and probably will be implemented in NS. I like games that play back and forth, in a toughly contested round, and making the changes he's suggested (all alien races @ one hive, with some other modifications), followed on by some serious play testing and balancing once that has been released, will significantly increase the diversity of the game play. It will force more dynamic responses to situations, as well as not lock the determined order of things. As it is, with a bit of experience you can pick which side has won in the first 3 or so minutes, as it seems to be the norm in most RTS. I don't object to this, but I would like to see some more back and forth between them until the conclusion of the game. As it is, there is still a lot of fun to be had if a game has gone on long enough, the aliens are at 3 hives and the marines are teched up to the max trying to fight the ensuing onslaught on their base.
As for all the people who suggest it should be done on an engine with better looking graphics, I don't think they have a proper hold on the level of modification that has been done to achieve this game, and that more likely than not it was only really possible to achieve in Half-Life, as it is the only engine that allows you to use C++ to extend it (to my knowledge), and not just a limited 'scripting language'. HL is already owned by a great many people. More importantly, this game is much much much more about game play than it ever will be about eye candy, but that said, I think the world they've created is so immersive and good looking as it is, I don't see why people would complain in the first place. Perhaps in the future it could be ported to another engine, or even created in it’s own, but there are more important things for the dev team to focus on for the time being.
Flayra, you and the rest of the dev team have conceived and realised an incredible concept for a game, and I will put my utter support behind you in the hope that you continue to have interest in it. Although, as a software developer myself, I can see that with all the effort and passion that has obviously been put in up to this point, I see no reason why you would just abandon it. It is up to the gamers from now on to support everything that NS is and can be so the passion inside you and the rest of your team is kept alight.
I myself will be contributing to the 'Constellation' program very shortly. I would like to see that this gives people access to betas and help in the play testing as well, but this is up to your discretion obviously.
For now, I urge everyone to appreciate the effort that has gone into NS, and the giant contribution they have made to the gaming community. While it borrows many concepts from elsewhere, they have all been tightly integrated with highly original ideas that are at the vanguard of team based strategy games. It will never be on par with Counter Strike in terms of player base, that is for sure. CS is a fast past, well thought out shoot em up for frag junkies. NS is a complex, layered, intricate and strategic game of epic proportions. Comparing the two is simply ridiculous.
Its detractors may depart, but they will be all the less fortunate for not sticking around to see the continued growth and refinement of one of the greatest achievements in computer game history.
Long live NS! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--dizzy.souls+Mar 23 2003, 06:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dizzy.souls @ Mar 23 2003, 06:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont understand why popl want Ns to be ported to some UT engine (2k3 or whatever), dont ppl understand that we will lose gameplay??? Ok so the graphics are superb, but the gameplay would be even worse then it is now... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To answer your question, because the UT2003 engine can handle better graphics, detailed open spaces, is optimized better, and doesn't suffer from the numerous bugs/severe limitations of the HL engine. Things like bounding box bugs, maximum planes in a map, weapon limits, ammo count limits, et cetera would not be a problem. Admittedly, modding for UT is a hell of a lot harder than it is to mod for HL, and other potential problems may arise, although I do guarantee that the Unreal engine been through several revisions, minimizing these engine limits.
Lose gameplay? The Unreal engine can do everything the HL engine can. It's up to the modder. Please explain how you'd "lose gameplay" because of the U engine.
Note: I'm not suggesting anything. Just answering some (hypothetical?) questions. Frankly, when it comes down to you, a clip of bullets, and a thirsty skulk, it really doesn't matter.
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Mar 21 2003, 03:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 21 2003, 03:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... They lose interest quickly when a game has balance issues... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> indeed.
as i play more and more i see more and more...
things happening; good and bad. new people with good and bad attitudes. these people will be the bane or life of NS in the future, so if we can make them fair and honest people (hard to do in the world right now) NS should have a long life... hackers cant be stoped, only slowed. for every speed bump there is atleast one way around it. it may be a tricky way, even trickier than the bump itself, but there is always another route. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
granted, if current problems are not fixed i can see a FA issue all over again... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> and im not just talking ballance. seeing a really nice textured hall way with realistic lighting in such an old game is absolutly awsome to see... but at the cost of 300+ w_polys and about 50+ e_polys. and the issue with software mode is a real downer since NS WAS meant to be a "Game that anyone can play". guess thats why there's no gore in it, either... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
/wow that went all over the place... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
-edit- in short: NS's future is as solid as the player's opinions when NS 1.1 will be out.
Comments
the argument on how Firearms (and it's demise) is quite similar to NS
-firearms, in pub gameplay, isn't TERRIBLY different from other shoot em ups
-there are NO OTHER rts/fps games for NS players to migrate to.
that being said, of course NS *could* die. but with hardcore fans like us, and an INCREDIBLY responsive dev team, it will have a LOT longer grace period for players to abandon it, IMHO.
//SilentMurderer
As for cheaters, if WONIDs could translate into real world street addresses I would go to their homes individually and kill them myself one by one in creative but horribly painful different ways. Until I can get that tracking system perfected, we will just have to take the cheats as they are thrown at us (even some after 1.1). Luckily the very sub-human nature of the cheater makes them not only incompetent and stupid, but poor strategists. This means they will almost always rambo, but unlike a normal rambo they are very hard to stop. The best solution I have seen is to attack them in groups. Their aim-bots seem to have a lot of trouble when it comes to tracking more than one target (make sure you come from two directions). Nothing is more beautiful than seeing them do that inhuman twitch as two skulks drop on a cheater simultaneously and bite his face off because he can't choose a target.
Unfortunately for Natural Selection the very nature of the game itself will deny it the huge fanbase that Counter-Strike currently enjoys. Counter-Strike's learning curve is somewhere in the area of 5-10 minutes, whereas Natural Selection's is more like 2-3 hours. They obviously both require a lot more time than that to master, but as we all know, very few people ever come anywhere close to mastery. Many people simply do not enjoy the high level of thought required to play Natural Selection. All that decesion making and prediction make NS almost as bad as reading for some people, and we all know reading is stupid and pointless right? The sad fact is that most people are too impatient or too dim to get any real pleasure out of NS. What can we do to solve this problem? I say it is not really a problem at all. Through this wonderful tool know as the internet we are always able to find a game where we know some at least semi-intelligent people will be present to challenge us. We can live with a small but active community, and the patches that we have been assured are comming will be more than enough to keep most of us around.
As for the overall life-span of NS, it would be hard to judge at this early stage. Even with the seldom updates the DoD team has produced that mod has kept many of its players (including me) and grown at a reasonable rate. This was achieved however by the extremely good quality of the DoD teams work in their few and far between releases. The thing I believe will keep this mod ticking is the dedicated development team. There have not been many mods where the developers interact as much with the public as this one, and this is a very good sign. In the long run it is up to us to determine the lifespan of NS. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want to see it live a good healthy series of years. Tell your friends (especially strategy gamers) about NS. I have created 4 diehard addicts so far. What about you?
I play DOD too, but have been playing it less and less often as I get increasingly angry at the domainance of K98 (AKA the WWII railgun) snapshotting, and BAR whoring, plus the same maps I've played a thousand times before. I would really like to see DOD beta 4 soon, but I don't think it's going to happen.
I'll try to cut down some of the extra features and get 1.1 out sooner rather then later, but I've been incredibly busy recently. Thanks for the kind words! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well you heard it here first <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, you say you gonna cut down on some extra features to get 1.1 out sooner? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Hey man, dont sweat it! just take your time with it and make it right.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Great communication, teamwork and gameplay.
but a few months later the game just got boring as we had people who didnt know how to operate as a gorg or commanders who just sat in the comm chair.
Now you join a NS game and you hear "WTH IM GORGING", "You better be a damn good gorg", "GET OUT OF THE COMM CHAIR NOOB!", or "This comm sucks!".The communication is no more and the gameplay is gone after all the complainers. I know theres not a way to put a stop to this but that is ruining the game.
This game is based on 'If my team is good', if your team is not good then you loose.
Great communication, teamwork and gameplay.
but a few months later the game just got boring as we had people who didnt know how to operate as a gorg or commanders who just sat in the comm chair.
Now you join a NS game and you hear "WTH IM GORGING", "You better be a damn good gorg", "GET OUT OF THE COMM CHAIR NOOB!", or "This comm sucks!".The communication is no more and the gameplay is gone after all the complainers. I know theres not a way to put a stop to this but that is ruining the game.
This game is based on 'If my team is good', if your team is not good then you loose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are partly right, but try not to play on public servers because you will experience this all too frequently. Clan servers are better..as long as they dont go for the dreaded five minute game ender...(tech rush! nooo!)
wait to 1.1, because everyone will be a n00b again.
getting lost in Eclipse 1.1 will be mildly embarrasing, hehe...i can hear it now..WTH! where did Maintenance go!
If it were made possible for mappers to pre-construct buildings, then you could have a map where the marines had to hold off an alien assualt for a certain length of time (to develop a virus, or something) and the aliens could gain extra time by destroyng secondary objectives (power station, supercomputer etc)
not as a new main mode, just as a fun ocasional distraction.
Other fun maps could be a "hunt the ONOS" with all the aliens getting no respawns, but start out as ONOS with 3 hives up and 1 of each upgrade chamber in each hive. The marine's job is to hunt them down (before the ship docks with a spacestation or something) and kill them, possibly with the marines starting in a vent base so the ONOS can't just kill them all.
I'm not saying I don't like the current game (other than JPs beign stupidly dependat on framerate) but some variety would be fun!
This game belongs at the top with all the other A games, wich I dont see a lot lately to be honest, most games now are ripped off <b>bad</b> and are just made to get the developers rich without adding something to the gaming community, I dont know wich game I should play if I didnt play NS, how much quality games as this are there now a days? Where are the games that made u laugh/cry, that hit u straight in the hart, that made u really feel u were in it?
This game has hit me in the hart and i know it has done the same for a lot more ppl. (the last time a game really hit my hart was gta1 and Thief/Systemshock2 and of course Halflife)
[edit] omg I totally forgot about HL for a sec [/edit]
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what you mean, and I believe that it is as a result of balance. Overall in NS, the balance is shaky at best. For the marines if you have a bad comm you lose. For the aliens more than one gorge (or a bad gorge) and you lose. The game doesn't have any 'forgiveness' for mediocre players in key roles.
On top of that, because of balance issues, the alien team feels they need to play a PERFECT game in order to stay competitive, let alone scape up a win.
I'm not sure if fixing some of the balance issues will correct this problem, but it would be a great start. The game needs to be a bit more 'forgiving' of people playing key roles for that problem to diminish.
Regards,
Savant
heh, Flay, if it comes to it, charge 12 dollars a month..
ill pay my man, ill pay,
Oh btw, it would be a shame if like Flay died in a car accidnet or something :-/.. omg, think happy thoughts think happy thoughts!, flay dont die!
omg omg omgogmgomg..
Ego
[FACT] - Ill be at funeral ( proably to fight comprox and coil <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I think most things will be cleared up in 1.1 and from what I have seen since I got here the Dev's are excellent as responding to the community so...if we think of a problem...they will fix it. I think I'll be playing this for a long time.
Now, later I commanded a ridiculously exciting game on Bast. Took ages, but it involved the aliens getting two hives and us getting loads of res and fighting the aliens all over the map before they started to get fades. Then we got HA squads, assaulted a hive, took it, assaulted another hive, was defeated. Regrouped, assaulted it again, and got it, and then after much delaying fencing (they had spammed the map with OC chambers) we finally laid siege to the last hive but not without losing some HA'ers in the process. I specifically did NOT go for the brutal super rushes because, well, they suck. You get about 20 minutes of frustrating gameplay for the aliens. I don't live to frustrate my fellow players. Players that only play by those rush only strategies on pubs suck too.
So for 1.1 Flayra and the testers will create a rather open game, that will be balanced slowly and perhaps not fully untill after release. Because they now know that balance is very difficult to design in advance, it must be created after. And as it is now 1.04 is skewed towards marines for many reasons and patching further would not do much. Therefore a new approach with 1.1, as Flayra said.
I dont understand why popl want Ns to be ported to some UT engine (2k3 or whatever), dont ppl understand that we will lose gameplay??? Ok so the graphics are superb, but the gameplay would be even worse then it is now...
Those games that play back and forth and get the heart really pumping and will you to fight with everything you have, although few and far between on public servers, are in my opinion worth the myriad of one-sided games you play. I agree very strongly that its success will be heavily dependent on its developers commitment to continually expanding it and balancing out the issues, but I'm confident that they do have the willingness to keep at it. I know if I created something this freakin cool, I would be pretty chuffed with myself and want to fix everything the community finds wrong with it and keep them interested.
NS is a VERY ambitious project, and one that breaks new ground in the RTS / FPS ground as far as I know. It is to be entirely expected that such an ambitious project is going to have many balance issues and game play problems from the outset. Nothing at the vanguard of anything is ever perfect. If the development team are willing to stick to it, all the loyal users who find the layered, complex and strategic game play of NS exhilarating will stick around for the results.
I know the learning curve is steep, but once you start getting immersed into the NS world there isn't any game I know of that competes with it in terms of involvement and diversity. No longer is my ability to 'point and shoot' the sole dictator of the enjoyment I can get out of a game... which suits me perfectly, because I'm not that great at the pointing and shooting business.
Yes, the tech rush is a problem. Yes, games on some maps always seem to play out in exactly the same way. Yes, the amount of teamwork required doesn't make it as much fun for those only interested in their frags. But the heavy emphasis on teamwork in this game is exactly what makes it so much fun in the first place to those who are keen on it, and to dissuade from that at all will ruin the experience. There is something quite special about running around in tightly knit units of 5 or so marines, covering each other and completing objectives together. There's even something cinematic and awe inspiring when it's 5 guys with HA + HMG, welding each other and mowing down everything in their path. That said, there is also something great about meeting a bunch of your skulk buddies in a specified location and rushing the marines together to offset their steady advance, or patiently taking out a Turret Factory sitting on a ledge as a lerk somewhere.
I think Martigen's well articulated '<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=20615' target='_blank'>uber suggestion</a>' should and probably will be implemented in NS. I like games that play back and forth, in a toughly contested round, and making the changes he's suggested (all alien races @ one hive, with some other modifications), followed on by some serious play testing and balancing once that has been released, will significantly increase the diversity of the game play. It will force more dynamic responses to situations, as well as not lock the determined order of things. As it is, with a bit of experience you can pick which side has won in the first 3 or so minutes, as it seems to be the norm in most RTS. I don't object to this, but I would like to see some more back and forth between them until the conclusion of the game. As it is, there is still a lot of fun to be had if a game has gone on long enough, the aliens are at 3 hives and the marines are teched up to the max trying to fight the ensuing onslaught on their base.
As for all the people who suggest it should be done on an engine with better looking graphics, I don't think they have a proper hold on the level of modification that has been done to achieve this game, and that more likely than not it was only really possible to achieve in Half-Life, as it is the only engine that allows you to use C++ to extend it (to my knowledge), and not just a limited 'scripting language'. HL is already owned by a great many people. More importantly, this game is much much much more about game play than it ever will be about eye candy, but that said, I think the world they've created is so immersive and good looking as it is, I don't see why people would complain in the first place. Perhaps in the future it could be ported to another engine, or even created in it’s own, but there are more important things for the dev team to focus on for the time being.
Flayra, you and the rest of the dev team have conceived and realised an incredible concept for a game, and I will put my utter support behind you in the hope that you continue to have interest in it. Although, as a software developer myself, I can see that with all the effort and passion that has obviously been put in up to this point, I see no reason why you would just abandon it. It is up to the gamers from now on to support everything that NS is and can be so the passion inside you and the rest of your team is kept alight.
I myself will be contributing to the 'Constellation' program very shortly. I would like to see that this gives people access to betas and help in the play testing as well, but this is up to your discretion obviously.
For now, I urge everyone to appreciate the effort that has gone into NS, and the giant contribution they have made to the gaming community. While it borrows many concepts from elsewhere, they have all been tightly integrated with highly original ideas that are at the vanguard of team based strategy games. It will never be on par with Counter Strike in terms of player base, that is for sure. CS is a fast past, well thought out shoot em up for frag junkies. NS is a complex, layered, intricate and strategic game of epic proportions. Comparing the two is simply ridiculous.
Its detractors may depart, but they will be all the less fortunate for not sticking around to see the continued growth and refinement of one of the greatest achievements in computer game history.
Long live NS! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
To answer your question, because the UT2003 engine can handle better graphics, detailed open spaces, is optimized better, and doesn't suffer from the numerous bugs/severe limitations of the HL engine. Things like bounding box bugs, maximum planes in a map, weapon limits, ammo count limits, et cetera would not be a problem. Admittedly, modding for UT is a hell of a lot harder than it is to mod for HL, and other potential problems may arise, although I do guarantee that the Unreal engine been through several revisions, minimizing these engine limits.
Lose gameplay? The Unreal engine can do everything the HL engine can. It's up to the modder. Please explain how you'd "lose gameplay" because of the U engine.
Note: I'm not suggesting anything. Just answering some (hypothetical?) questions. Frankly, when it comes down to you, a clip of bullets, and a thirsty skulk, it really doesn't matter.
indeed.
as i play more and more i see more and more...
things happening; good and bad. new people with good and bad attitudes. these people will be the bane or life of NS in the future, so if we can make them fair and honest people (hard to do in the world right now) NS should have a long life... hackers cant be stoped, only slowed. for every speed bump there is atleast one way around it. it may be a tricky way, even trickier than the bump itself, but there is always another route. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
granted, if current problems are not fixed i can see a FA issue all over again... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> and im not just talking ballance. seeing a really nice textured hall way with realistic lighting in such an old game is absolutly awsome to see... but at the cost of 300+ w_polys and about 50+ e_polys. and the issue with software mode is a real downer since NS WAS meant to be a "Game that anyone can play". guess thats why there's no gore in it, either... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
/wow that went all over the place... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
-edit- in short: NS's future is as solid as the player's opinions when NS 1.1 will be out.