Anti-americanism
Jammer
Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 728Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 728Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">What Causes It?</div> First, let me state that this is a serious discussion about the CAUSES. Please do not just spew some Anti-American rhetoric and use that for 'why emrica is teh w0rst!'.
Also, my post is based mainly on the agruments from 'Whats so Great About America' by Dinesh D'Souza. He is my personal Jesus. :-)
There are pretty much 4 schools of Anti-Americanism: Europe, Left America, Asia, and of course, the Islamic World.
<b>Europe</b>
This can also be called the French school, although it is not limited to that country. One aspect of this is washed up super power syndrome. Many in Europe long for their former position of power in the world, and hate the fact that the world is now unilaterally controlled by another nation, even a friendly nation. Most of the time this kinda of Anti-Americanism is masked by attacking the idea of unilateralism, when really it is founded in a country's desire to retain their ability to make unilateral decesions. Connected to this is the fear of Planet America. The world is rapidly moving into an interconnected, liberal democracy culturally dominated by America. Europe, and particularly the French, fear the dissolve of the French language and French culture to, what they see as, an inferior culture. This becomes a justification for Anti-American political practices, such as UN vetoes COUGHfranceCOUGH and trade tariffs to protect local goods which can't compete globally.
<b>Left America</b>
Let me first say that being a Liberal does not mean being unpatriotic or hating America. Its just reflects a growing hostility of the left to the decesions of (non-Liberal) American Adminsitrations. Anti-Americanism from this school is an odd mixture. A great deal was pioneered during the vietnam war, when Anti-Americanism was almost fashionable. This school also ignores history. America, as the inheritor of Western Civ, is attacked for the current problems of the when really it was the old gaurd of Western Civ, Europe, which created most of today's problems. Since Europe has become an ally of the Anti-American left, they refuse to allocate criticism. This group also takes a hard look at America's flaws against a Utopian standard, as opposed to a real standard. This school sees America as 'Inherintly racist, sexist, homophobic, <insert your oppressed category here>', and for that reason, America is not worthy of respect or support. Often times this group admires American failure not because it hurts the superpower as Europe does, but because it strikes them a romantic vision of the oppressed fighting their tyrant.
<b>Asian</b>
The motto of this school is 'Modernization without Americanization. Many Asian countries, such as Singapore, have a great interest in Western Prosperity, but deplore its moral and social decline. Undemocratic regimes use their economic clought to update their countries, but strictly (attempt) to control the influx of American ideas via despotic dictatorships. Naturally, democracies are portrayed as corrupt bastions of greed and moral decline. This school is much less confrontational with Anti-Americanism and seeks to selectively import aspects of the culture.
<b>The Islamic World</b>
Whoo Boy. This could be a topic all in itself. The whole idea of America is subversive to Islam. First, Islam is supposed to own the world. Follow Allah and you'll control everything. Looking at the world, Islamic thinkers saw that 'No, we don't control anything!'. Bin Laden says that Islam is facing the biggest threat ever. He is right. The Islamic world is seeing their entire society and values be challanged in a dramatic way, by a power which in many cases is the opposite of Islamic thought.
America is antithetical to the Islamic world. One cannot import America selectively, as the Asian school beleives. The societies are radically different. First, America is a secular, though heavily Christian based, nation. That is a heinous idea in the Islamic world. The Gov't is an insrument of allah, and as such a government the is devoid of religion is evil. Such a culture alone will displace values and replace traditional Islamic heirarchies. The make up of American society is seen as horrible to Islamic values. Children are often more powerful than parents; sex has become casual for many; homosexuality is tolerated if not accepted;material goods are the emphasis of many lives; civic and social life as nearly died as American communities have lost their sense of unity and a goal for the common good. These attacks are, if anything, true. One cannot argue against the idea that America has lost its overall moral structure; its a fact. There is a reason for hating America beyond this though.
Further more, America is attacked for its lack of cultural morality. We have licentous TV shows, lifestyles, culture. The Pope described America as 'The Culture of Death', backing the Muslim argument. Ironically, many Americans, including the President, portray Arab thinkers as those objecting to our way of life entirely. That is not true. It is our cultural epedemic which has the Islamic world up in Arms. We cannot avoid spreading out culture to these countries.
The idea of America has enraptured young people across the world. In America, you can write the script of your own life. Parents have little to do with personal decesions after a child leaves the home. Never before have so many enjoyed so much freedom and choice in life. America does not represent a new culture; rather, America is a new way to live: for the gratification of the self.
Naturally, the Islamic world finds issue with this for 2 reasons. First, as evidenced in Iran, there is a bitter power struggle going on between Pro-Western young people and the old religious guard. Young people see America not as the great oppressive but as a land of oppurtunity as many European immigrants saw America in the 1800s. In the Islamic world, people have always been expected to live for Allah, or in different regions of the world, for the government or their lords or even for survival. America means living for the self, and idea subversive to the very foundation of Islam. The second reason for Anti-Americanism in the context of personal choice also involves the complex topics of virtue and freedom.
America values freedom. The Islamic world values virtue. In America, the Gov't is supposed to facilitate freedom, whether or not that freedom leads to a better society. The Islamic world forces virtue. Much like the Spanish inquisition, such actions are justifyed. "I am forcing you to save your soul. You'll thank me in the afterlife." That very foundation- the purpose of government- shakes a radical tenet of Islam.
On a side note, America can counter such arguments of virtue vs freedom quite easily. Virtue is not virtuous if it is forced on people. Only when virtue is chosen freely does it result in a greater good for society and qualify as actual virtue. Otherwise it is nothing but oppression.
Of course, in addition to this, there are the surface attacks of US troops in Saudi Arabia and the idea of Blood for Oil. They are not the reasons for Anti-Americanism. They are the effects of an entire culture contrary to American ideals.
... Phew! Alright, lets see if we can get an intelligent debate going on this issue. I'd like to think I've provided more than enough food for thought.
DISCUSS!
Also, my post is based mainly on the agruments from 'Whats so Great About America' by Dinesh D'Souza. He is my personal Jesus. :-)
There are pretty much 4 schools of Anti-Americanism: Europe, Left America, Asia, and of course, the Islamic World.
<b>Europe</b>
This can also be called the French school, although it is not limited to that country. One aspect of this is washed up super power syndrome. Many in Europe long for their former position of power in the world, and hate the fact that the world is now unilaterally controlled by another nation, even a friendly nation. Most of the time this kinda of Anti-Americanism is masked by attacking the idea of unilateralism, when really it is founded in a country's desire to retain their ability to make unilateral decesions. Connected to this is the fear of Planet America. The world is rapidly moving into an interconnected, liberal democracy culturally dominated by America. Europe, and particularly the French, fear the dissolve of the French language and French culture to, what they see as, an inferior culture. This becomes a justification for Anti-American political practices, such as UN vetoes COUGHfranceCOUGH and trade tariffs to protect local goods which can't compete globally.
<b>Left America</b>
Let me first say that being a Liberal does not mean being unpatriotic or hating America. Its just reflects a growing hostility of the left to the decesions of (non-Liberal) American Adminsitrations. Anti-Americanism from this school is an odd mixture. A great deal was pioneered during the vietnam war, when Anti-Americanism was almost fashionable. This school also ignores history. America, as the inheritor of Western Civ, is attacked for the current problems of the when really it was the old gaurd of Western Civ, Europe, which created most of today's problems. Since Europe has become an ally of the Anti-American left, they refuse to allocate criticism. This group also takes a hard look at America's flaws against a Utopian standard, as opposed to a real standard. This school sees America as 'Inherintly racist, sexist, homophobic, <insert your oppressed category here>', and for that reason, America is not worthy of respect or support. Often times this group admires American failure not because it hurts the superpower as Europe does, but because it strikes them a romantic vision of the oppressed fighting their tyrant.
<b>Asian</b>
The motto of this school is 'Modernization without Americanization. Many Asian countries, such as Singapore, have a great interest in Western Prosperity, but deplore its moral and social decline. Undemocratic regimes use their economic clought to update their countries, but strictly (attempt) to control the influx of American ideas via despotic dictatorships. Naturally, democracies are portrayed as corrupt bastions of greed and moral decline. This school is much less confrontational with Anti-Americanism and seeks to selectively import aspects of the culture.
<b>The Islamic World</b>
Whoo Boy. This could be a topic all in itself. The whole idea of America is subversive to Islam. First, Islam is supposed to own the world. Follow Allah and you'll control everything. Looking at the world, Islamic thinkers saw that 'No, we don't control anything!'. Bin Laden says that Islam is facing the biggest threat ever. He is right. The Islamic world is seeing their entire society and values be challanged in a dramatic way, by a power which in many cases is the opposite of Islamic thought.
America is antithetical to the Islamic world. One cannot import America selectively, as the Asian school beleives. The societies are radically different. First, America is a secular, though heavily Christian based, nation. That is a heinous idea in the Islamic world. The Gov't is an insrument of allah, and as such a government the is devoid of religion is evil. Such a culture alone will displace values and replace traditional Islamic heirarchies. The make up of American society is seen as horrible to Islamic values. Children are often more powerful than parents; sex has become casual for many; homosexuality is tolerated if not accepted;material goods are the emphasis of many lives; civic and social life as nearly died as American communities have lost their sense of unity and a goal for the common good. These attacks are, if anything, true. One cannot argue against the idea that America has lost its overall moral structure; its a fact. There is a reason for hating America beyond this though.
Further more, America is attacked for its lack of cultural morality. We have licentous TV shows, lifestyles, culture. The Pope described America as 'The Culture of Death', backing the Muslim argument. Ironically, many Americans, including the President, portray Arab thinkers as those objecting to our way of life entirely. That is not true. It is our cultural epedemic which has the Islamic world up in Arms. We cannot avoid spreading out culture to these countries.
The idea of America has enraptured young people across the world. In America, you can write the script of your own life. Parents have little to do with personal decesions after a child leaves the home. Never before have so many enjoyed so much freedom and choice in life. America does not represent a new culture; rather, America is a new way to live: for the gratification of the self.
Naturally, the Islamic world finds issue with this for 2 reasons. First, as evidenced in Iran, there is a bitter power struggle going on between Pro-Western young people and the old religious guard. Young people see America not as the great oppressive but as a land of oppurtunity as many European immigrants saw America in the 1800s. In the Islamic world, people have always been expected to live for Allah, or in different regions of the world, for the government or their lords or even for survival. America means living for the self, and idea subversive to the very foundation of Islam. The second reason for Anti-Americanism in the context of personal choice also involves the complex topics of virtue and freedom.
America values freedom. The Islamic world values virtue. In America, the Gov't is supposed to facilitate freedom, whether or not that freedom leads to a better society. The Islamic world forces virtue. Much like the Spanish inquisition, such actions are justifyed. "I am forcing you to save your soul. You'll thank me in the afterlife." That very foundation- the purpose of government- shakes a radical tenet of Islam.
On a side note, America can counter such arguments of virtue vs freedom quite easily. Virtue is not virtuous if it is forced on people. Only when virtue is chosen freely does it result in a greater good for society and qualify as actual virtue. Otherwise it is nothing but oppression.
Of course, in addition to this, there are the surface attacks of US troops in Saudi Arabia and the idea of Blood for Oil. They are not the reasons for Anti-Americanism. They are the effects of an entire culture contrary to American ideals.
... Phew! Alright, lets see if we can get an intelligent debate going on this issue. I'd like to think I've provided more than enough food for thought.
DISCUSS!
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I mean, in Canada here, fries and gravy are a common thing, but when I go to the states to visit friends, some resteraunts have actually REFUSED to serve me the 2 together. Why? I have no idea, not part of your "apple pie" ideology?
The only reason we export so much is because there is a demand for it. In China and Japan, American clothes are the apex of 'cool'. Politically, with the exception of that mess in South America (which was done to combat a greater evil than dictator ships, communism), the US seems to be shoving freedom and democracy down other cultures throats. Thats a bad thing? And lets not take this too offtopic with South America.
EDIT
Fries and Gravy? WTH is gravy? Marinara sauce? Turkey gravy? If its either of those 2, most typical french frie places don't sell that, which is why you can't get it. At classier resturants, there shouldn't be an issue, though you'll probably get weird looks. And no, Dennys doesn't count as classy.
Well America dose tend to shove things down your throats but then again it’s coincided business
Microsoft (the number one monopoly holder)
Mc Donald’s need I say more
however i as a part of your leftist anti american group find some things wrong with many of your arguemnts of course its hard to cover all your bases
islam is not a monlithich religoun much teh way christianity is not teh america haters who find america to be against their religion area very small percentage.
the extremist view is founded on teh experience of a man named qutb in the american south in the 1950s or 60s the conclusion was reached that the greatness of teh us was based purely on the exploitation of our black population. the book he authored called <a href='http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/' target='_blank'>MILESTONES</a> is teh basis for ALL extremist muslim groups.
ASIA anti american =>JAPAN im just gonna say that.
Europe
i see the fact that europe is defending its own soverigen issues as a good thing it will prevent the USofA from simply acting like teh spoiled brat of the world.
looking at the reasons teh russians are voting against america, merely as an example, the citizens of the ussr were practically promised a second marshall plan if they removed teh communists from power.
this occured as you know in 1991 scince then the us government has averaged a HUGE 2M$ per year in aid to russia
at the same time the EU has given 250 M$ per year to teh russians
( in contrast the us government cancelled 70 M$ to Yemen in 1991 for not supporting teh gulf war.)
the LEFT in the US
this group will soon be stripped of citzenship by patriot 2.
the reason i think many people dislike the good ole USofA : HYPOCRACY
there are too many examples of teh us behaving on teh international stage in complete disregard for all of teh things which we stand for.
an example Guantanamo bay where prisoners are being held with out trial in clear violation of their geneva convention rights. ( they are classified as "<a href='http://fair.org/extra/0203/guantanamo-prisoners-rumsfeld.html' target='_blank'>UNLAWFULL_COMBATANTS</a>" - which is not an actual cataogry
in conclusion HYPOCRACY
(sorry about teh)
**** im off topic agian!
UN soldiers monitoring the [iraqi]border have reported that U.S. marines had cut several large gaps in the electric fence along the border that were large enough to accommodate tanks.
- just thought that was funny:)
This is why noone likes you...cocky people like this, this guy just answered your question by acting like the definitive ignorant american.
Come to the Rendezvous in Grand Haven, MI. They'll serve you up a nice big platter of fries with home-made gravy AND chedder cheese.
It's late so I'll just add one more point. You can't force Freedom on anyone. You can only remove the obstacles that block freedom. People have to choose to be free.
Japan is not so much Anti-American as Anti-Trade. Japan has a rather vibrant democracy that permits dissent, although the culture itself sees conformity as a great virtue. Singapore, where gum chewing is a crime, is much more a part of the Asian school.
Numbers don't matter when we can have 1 American take out hundreds of others, and still live.
Radical Islam is not as small as people would like us to beleive. Americans are given the impression that, to quote South Park, 'everyone but terrorists love America'.
Russia is not Anti-American not in the sense of disliking America, but in searching for a style of government which provides a 3rd way to live, besides American Democracy and Totalitarianism (aka Communism). Also, the disinegration of Russia happened MUCH faster than anyone had expected. The Chinese have the right idea- slowly introduce cultural elements. Ironically, China intends to keep communism alive despite having a Western style market. Its almost funny that they think they can promote commercial expression but silence political expression.
Europe: They aren't so much as a balance to American power as a hinderance. A Balance would mean that France's veto would effect the US. It doesn't. It simply places a barrier that we'll crush easily.
Haha... I'm sure you'll be stripped of your citizenship. Dissent isn't a crime, but proactively physically moving to harm America's interests is- its called Treason. So burn and chant all you want, you won't get arrested. Treason is being an American citizen, working with a foreign entity or alone, against the interests of the US.
Trial. Right. They just <i>happened</i> to be armed and fighting with Taliban and Al Qaeda forces at the time. Normally, PoWs are released and they return to their country and accept their fate. Radical Islam refuses to accept its new role in the world. Releasing them only lets the problem continue.... though the US needs a long term solution to deal with foreign arrests, I'll agree.
US Hypocrisy? Please, don't actually think that the US is unique in being a hypocrite. Judged on a Utopian standard, the US fails in its dealings. But in the real world, the US passes with flying colors, even with hypocrisy.
EDIT
Agent Orange: there is a fine line between cocky and true. If the entire world were to declare war on the US, Britain, Austrailia, Israel, we'd win, assuming there were no biological weapons. China has the shell of a military. Russia's army has fallen apart. It would be like fighting 1975 Soviets with 2003 weaponry. An absolute bloodbath in US victory.
It would be cocky to say the US could take on the world if WMDs were used. :-D
Also, ignorant implies he is uneducated in the subject. He's correct. The world couldn't function with US trade, or technology, and our Armed Forces can take out the world. You'd be the ignorant Anti-American by not realizing that.
Anyways, when i have time tomorrow I'll read through all the posts and reply.
For now, this will suffice.
Isn't it odd that throughout the 20th Century Europe was trying to get America involved back in Europe and in wars and such, even though America was still leaning towards the isolationist policies, and now, Europe is complaining that America is getting too involved with world affairs.
Honestly, Europe, make up your mind !
America's involvement in world affairs is Europe's brainchild. Not completely, but to a large degree.
Other people are jealous of what our country has accomplished, they are envious of our way of life and many secretly wish they too were Americans. They are bitter that they weren't given these chances so they take it out on us for not being totally 100% perfect all the time. The US spends unimaginable amounts of money on foreign aid, US non-profit organizations are helping people all over the globe, and yes, the US has made life better for many, many people.
Fanaticism is the Islamic issue, and also some of the Leftist American issue as well. Fanatics like the Islamic extremists who believe America to be the root of all evils and the oppressor of their people when in fact it is the government who is their oppressor. It's the scapegoat philosophy - "They are the source of your problems, not me. Kill them while I spend all your money on guns instead of butter." Communist and Fascist governments seem to do well at this too. (Extreme) Leftist Americans are slightly different, and I must admit they are one of my pet peeves. Extreme environmentalists, people who are against nuclear power, people who think animals are people too... I would like you all to be quiet and realize how good you have it that you live in a society which allows you to have these opinions, stupid as they may be. American leftist fanatics are against the government simply because they lack any adversity in their soft cuddly life and so they choose to create it, nothing more than that. </rant>
my problem with this: the united staes government routinely and as a matter of course ignores promises made when ever it is advantageous. we are associated with all the wrong people in the world.
look at the afgan case: we go in we kick soviet **** we walk out agin after promising to help rebuild the state it becomes a bastion of anti us sentiment because they got ***ED over by my government.
look at bin laden oh he was ex cia, in the afgan war. the soviet after action reprts published in 1991 in russin and 2000 in engilsh. explicitly mention his name in association with "cia led" plots to crash airlineer into the kremlin during the eighties.
the EU has no power as yet but dissent with the us is a step into becoming a separate political entity.
yes the soccer mom left is way to power full in the US. i think personal acountablity is critical if society is going to continue to function. but thats abit aside
my point.
I am NOT advocating we release the prisoners from afganistan. i am merely asking they be treated with respect. and when the war on terror is over we will release them. their current treatment specifies that they will not be released at the end of the war if it ends.
the only way many people in the world have to see our government is though how it effects them. for years the us has ignored forigen policy by say ing that we have the bombs and that no one will **** with us.
whee its 3am i quit
(Edit by Fam - Please spell the word 'THE' correctly in future posts.)
It's that kind of drivel that fuels my own little Anti-American furnace.
The world As We Know IT, perhaps, but I think the world would get along quite dandily without USA if you should one day splinter up into 10 squabbling mini-republics. There would be another super power to emerge instead, and be the target of all other's envy and fear.
I do not hate the US, actually I like the country and most of the people I know there quite well. I do not hate the government more than all the other governments in the world. I could easily imagine living in the US, though that does not mean I want wo be American, only that I like the place. I would just as well like to live in Italy or Greece or Croatia (or whatever it is called in english), simply because those are nice places where I can get along with the people.
Now, on to what I don't like and unfortunately that has been displayed in this thread quite alot. People saying we have this and that and therefore we are better than you. We are the richest, the most powerful we have the bombs, so shut up. So what, everyone knows this. It is this kinda attitude that makes me angry. However this has nothing to do with the US in particular, stupid people who go around telling everybody how great they are exist everywhere.
The one problem I see is that many people (definetely not all) have this sort of attitude simply because it is part of the American culture as well. This is not only towards people from other countries. As far as I have learned American children are tought a very competitive thinking which contains also the sentiment to brag about everything you achieve. Now, the rest of the world is not as competitive, this is probably one of the reasons why America is the most powerful nation, but that is also the reason why people do not like hearing about it all the time. This may be why Americans are so often described as cocky.
If you read this and understood: "So I'm allowed to be better than anyone else, beat them at everything and still not tell them so?" You are correct! Don't tell us how great you are, we may someday notice...
DISCLAIMER: I have lived with Americans for quite a while and all of the above is based on personal experience, not some vague impression I got from the media. Than again this only is applicable for the people and regions I lived in, but the again most of you only live in one region and know a certain Kind of people in your country as well.
Please don't think I, or any of my friends here, care in the slightest how 'big' the UK is on the power-map. Anyone who does is a complete and utter moron.
My own life experience has made me aware of one of the characteristics of American culture that no doubt is undesirable to many other cultures: a sort of across-the-board homogenous spread of the same stuff. I'm not prepared to make any sweeping judgements in terms of America's overall worth based on this point, but I'll go into it for the sake of discussion.
When I was a kid, my folks brought me to our cabin in the woods every summer for three months. Our cabin was in a valley with only couple hundred other people, with no roads to the outside, no phones, etc. I did this until I was around 18, and over the years I developed a somewhat divided way of looking at the world- one that made sense in the city, and one that made sense outside of it.
The two are so radically different that it is almost impossible to remember how one feels when you are in the other. But here are some of the things about living in "society" that I think we become so used to that we don't think about, even though I have seen firsthand that one can lead a life completely without, and be just as happy or even happier, although in ways that are difficult to explain.
Contemporary American culture is very centrally controlled- perhaps not by design (completely), but in the way things have fallen into place. Everybody shares similar estimations of what it takes to be happy, successful, and of what signifies trouble, or bad things. We all know which cars are crap, and what clothes went out in the '80s. We know if someone is running a Commodore 64 that their computer is an incredibly old piece of sh|t, and can somewhat infer from that they are either poor, or weird, or otherwise not with the program.
This unspoken way in which we have a near common agreement in making material assessments is the result of viewing the same mass media. Regardless of whether you think this is good or bad, it is important to realize that other parts of the world do not necessarily share this material perspective. In many places there simply is no WAY to achieve such a homogenous perspective.
There are drawbacks to this, but there are also incredible advantages that many Americans dismiss outright without ever having experienced them firsthand. I can tell you that when I was a kid living those summers in the woods, I didn't evaluate people at all based on the tools they owned. It was ALL old and assorted. Since everything had to be barged up a lake to get there, and there was no TV or radio or phones, people sort of fell back evaluating simply whether something did the job or not. Guess what? A pick-up truck from 1955 gets you where you need to go just as fast as a 2003 BMW.
In general there was a lot less stuck-up snobbery. People being people fought about things, but about different things. (I'm not trying to sell a utopia here, just talking about a different way of living.) There was also a lot less money being expended in total. Beyond rent, food, gas, etc, the rest was just put into whatever weird project someone was interested in.
It was a lot more complicated to rank people- you couldn't tell by people's stuff how they were doing in life, or what they believed in. For that you had to actually talk to them. Only then would you find out who was an engineer on vacation from Hewlett-Packard, or who had just hiked 3000 miles from Mexico.
Bringing this little story to an end, American business practices in general (capitalism) tend to homogenize and centralize everything. Implementing businesses is pretty much done in the same mindset as playing Warcraft, looking for new mines, and already having a template in mind for when you get there- (town hall, guard towers, barracks, or variations). Anything that doesn't conform gets moved, because it impedes the efficiency of the business plan.
The effect of this is that instead of all kinds of different people with different ways of looking at things coming up with their own ways of evaluating their success in life, you have a global network of people who ALL listen to the same centralized ideas, and guess what- the last ones to the party are always the lowest on the rung, just like your newest Warcraft town probably doesn't have all the upgraded buildings yet. You get a situation where you have people who had their own thing going on, and suddenly -WHAM- they just entered some massive system through the sewer, and are so behind that they'll never get high enough in their entire lifetime to not look like a moron compared to the people on TV shows shot in L.A.
Now, to address a couple of things I'm sure people will be quick to defend about capitalism:
Choice:
Yes, these people for the most part have the decision to take it or leave it. And they take it. I'm not necessarily saying they should be denied the right to do so. However, in any society, the majority of people are of average intelligence, and don't necessarily think things over a whole lot. So, a lot of the smarter people feel helpless when Marlboro shows up peddling smokes, and almost get trampled in the mad rush for this cool new thing, and while they are of course angry at their own stupid people, they also correctly identify Marlboro as the variable in the equation. And to be realistic, a lot of American companies don't give a fu<k about any of the results other than profit, which is also a characteristic that is less widespread among less homogenous communities. People in small communities are less flippant in general about causing messes, not because they're necessarily nicer, but because they travel less and can't run as far from their problems. Large multi-national corporations are at a new height of immunity from their actions, especially ones who can simply retreat to their home turf which defended by the American military. (See connections yet?)
Quality of life, efficiency:
Lots of people seem to bring up an idea of "progress." This idea espouses that science and technology can improve the lives of everyone, especially folks in the third world. By itself I think I'd go along with that, but the problem with that is that science and technology by itself is not how improvements are being delivered. It's not like people are showing up, building railroads and hospitals, and then writing the whole cost off as charity. They're going into societies that are so inferior technologically, that the debt incurred from bringing them forward two or three hundred years is so great, that it pretty much means everyone there automatically inherits such a massive debt that they're guaranteed to be a slave in practice for the rest of their life.
Is that worth it for them? Is it worth it to go from being a healthy goat-herder, who is more or less satisfied with your life, has a sexy wife and two kids, and has their own comfortable routine of paying the bills, to a stressed-out, unskilled, unfashionable janitor at some oil field, just because most of your community decided to modernize in return for the theoretical benefits? What the hell good does it do to have better medical care, and be able to get around ten times as fast, if in reality you have to work 14 hours a day at a sh|t job just to pay the interest on what you owe the people that built it?
This is not a perfect world where scientific advances are politely offered to "savages", at a price adjusted to what they can comfortably pay, and with an honest desire only to fix what's broken, and keep what's working. They slime their way in with really attractive or addictive products that appeal to the least educated or wise, and once they get them in debt, the ground starts to cave in even under the people who wanted nothing to do with it. After half their neighbors end up working over at the airbase to pay for smokes, pretty soon the economic model is no longer viable and everyone has to play the same new game, even though they have to start ten floors below the bottom.
I'm not pretending that people have perfect lives without modern technology. But people don't necessarily have perfect lives WITH it, and what a lot of people object to is the sugar-coated way in which many businesses hook new cultures on their stuff, reinforced with centrallized philosophical influences (TV, radio) that help solidify the feeling in many people that they need all this sh|t so much.
When the influx of new leaves people WORSE off than they were before, for years or even generations, many people start crying foul.
And yes, America is a very competitive society. Children are raised to compete. As a result, what Americans consider part of life (bragging and trying to be, and acknowledgeing when you are, the best.) other countries see as arrogance.
Mieztke- what? I suppose I'm just an ignorant American imperialist for not knowing German or wherever you are from so you can make sense to me. Kosovo? We were ending ETHINC CLEANSING, which Germany and France stayed out of. When you have a government systematically executing (Sound familar?) ethinc groups, the civilized world is expected to take action. Anti-Americanism there comes from a more modern Muslim point of few (social debuachry) than that the extermist anti-americanism. And even then it isn't terribly widespread. Actually, the prime minister who was just killed was SHOT for being a Pro-Western Muslim by Christian militants from Slobadom's regime.
Yes, the world 'as we know it'. But if you look at history, areas shaken by power shifts usually result in horrible living conditions and war. It is in civilization's best interest to keep America around. Powershifts were easier earlier in history, when the world wasn't connected. And right now, the US has such technological head start that it will be near impossible for other countries to challange it, without the use of WMDs and war.
EDIT
Great post Bubble. Yes, my posting was by no means complete. You seem to hit the nail on the head with Captialism and personal choice. Captialism, by nature, needs to expand. There are always new labor and product markets. Marx predicted that the world would be saturated by this point and that inner contradicition (constand expansion) would result in the collapse of the capitalist world.
American Captialism has had 2 interesting effects. First, there is a emphasis on this world, and that you should make your life as materially successful as possible. That isn't good or bad, its just a choice. The decesion to have a material life is part of American culture. The other side of American Capitalism is agressive cultural expansion, which I think I've highlighted in my Islamic argument. I gtg to class,I'll finish this later.:-P
Why I Dislike the American Empire;
1. 25% of the worlds pollution is produced in America. Yet, you refuse to take any responisibility for it because doing so would threaten american jobs.
2. Your president is an utter moron; How he got into power is a complete mystery to me, since Al Gore got more votes(not sure on that)...
3. You ARE unilateral. Or at the very least, the Bush administration is Unilateral. The current system of preemptive defense, attacking a country before it can attack you, is destabilising world politics.
4. From what I've gleaned, several Nations have been economically blackmailed into supporting a war on Iraq.
Now, let me get myself straight, I have no problem with the people, JUST the government. I also have major issues with my current government, mainly becuase the Prime Minister happens to be George Bushes love child and does everything he's ordered to do. A few people I know are considering my country to be the 51st state of America.
I'm not a nationalist by any degree, nor am I strictly anti american, I do happen to think that the American Government is simply not taking into account the political stance of other nations and putting their interests ahead of others.
Simple hint; Childish stunts like "Freedom Fries" instead of "French Fries" only serves to demonstrate just how childish some heads of state are...
<a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0971394253/qid=1044386677/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/104-6496738-7169556' target='_blank'>Why do People Hate America?</a>
And that doesn't even mention the many shortsighted people I see on the internet posting BS about the rest of the world (mostly about France lately), but I like to believe that not every American is like that.
Now answer me this: What's with all the anti-Europism?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After Sept. 11, 2001, many Americans asked the question, "Why?" Unfortunately, due to America's pop culture, the reason often gets masked behind the sound bites, corporations, and what looks good on television. <b>It is increasingly difficult to get a viewpoint on world events in the USA from a perspective other than American journalism sources.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I'm sure it's not coordinated or controlled by the government, but I think it is caused by patriotism. What's your thought on that? Now before you start bashing the media in other parts of the world (even if you can back it up) - that's not the point. Is it true?
Read <a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060520841/qid=1047653994/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-4698771-4295315' target='_blank'>this book</a> then tell me it's caused by Patriotism.
Other than that, I can not express the complete inaccuracy of your assumption.
But most of the people (80%+) are against bush and his politic, that has nothing todo with anti americanism, the european people just fear that the historie repeat herself..............
Why I Dislike the American Empire;
1. 25% of the worlds pollution is produced in America. Yet, you refuse to take any responisibility for it because doing so would threaten american jobs.
2. Your president is an utter moron; How he got into power is a complete mystery to me, since Al Gore got more votes(not sure on that)...
3. You ARE unilateral. Or at the very least, the Bush administration is Unilateral. The current system of preemptive defense, attacking a country before it can attack you, is destabilising world politics.
4. From what I've gleaned, several Nations have been economically blackmailed into supporting a war on Iraq. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just had to jump in here and block a few jabs.
1. There are few things that depress me more than when numerics, the only universal and unerring truth that humans have discovered, are misused to support an argument. You may be entirely correct in stating that "25% of the worlds pollution is produced in America." You are not correct in further applying that same statistic to say that we refuse to take any responsibility for it. It is also a distortion of fact to omit the other parameters of that statistic. For example, why not give the percentage of the US contribution to global manufacturing, shipping, and economics that create said pollution? Why not cite how frequently new, more stringent laws and regulations concerning pollution control are passed and enforced in this country? Why not apply the percentage on a per capita basis, and then see how the US stacks up against the rest of the world? Why not investigate a little history and discover just how horrible the impact of European pollution during its boom still affects the world today, or how much less recently the rest of the world (discounting the third world, which still is unable to do anything) has taken action to aggressively reduce pollution versus the US?
2. You would be very hard-pressed to find many Americans who would disagree with this point. Any rational American thinker should be rightfully outraged that the democratic basis on which his country is founded was flushed <i>for the second time in US history</i> because of an outdated and unnecessary process known as the electoral college. Essentially, every message of "Your vote counts!" to encourage higher voter turnout was rendered a lie. The plain fact is that more US citizens voted for Gore than voted for Bush, but Bush 'won' the election anyway. This should infuriate people, but the individual US citizen is helpless to correct the situation. Argue all you'd like, but our system is not a true democracy and never will be. Because of this, we are forced to sit by until at least next year, when the voters will speak once again. Whether their voices are heard is a gamble. In any case, I rather think that most non-Americans have a really distorted view of how much power our president really wields. Even though it's his face on the news every day, he cannot accomplish much at all without support from everyone all the way from congress down to his own advisors. He cannot officially declare a war on his own. Without going into a dissertation on American government, just remember that under most circumstances, whoever our president happens to be, he is only at most 1/3 of the reason that the American government does anything.
3. I realize you made a disclaimer about your opinion relating only to our government and not the individuals under it, but I would ask that blanket statements be avoided. Use of "You" should apply only to the reader.
4. Perhaps they were and perhaps not, but it seems to me that if a nation were even in a position to be effectively forced into alignment through economic threats, then that country is fairly dependant upon the US anyway. If that country were so much more responsible or morally superior to the US, why would it be so economically married to the US in the first place?
A very wise person told me something once when I was very young, and it seems to apply very well to how a number of other cultures and even nations view the United States. What he said was something like this. How do you make someone really upset? The answer is simple. You give them something, let them experience it, then take it away. Let's say I gave you something you've never had before, say a bicycle. You start riding the bike everywhere and come to rely on the additional freedom and speed it gives you for getting about. Then someone takes the bike away from you. You would not only be upset, you would very much dislike the person who took it away. So who is really in the wrong here? Was it me for giving you a bike in the first place? Was it you for taking the gift, becoming too accustomed to it, and perhaps taking it for granted? Or is it me the taker? Would it be worse if I, the one who gave you the bike, were the one who also took the bike?
As pedantic as this example was, it really hides an important point that few people stop to consider. Whenever the US has stepped in to 'give' something to another nation, then takes away that support later, there is resentment. This resentment is often very misplaced or generalized to include Americans as individuals. The fault, if there exists a true fault at all, may lie with a group, an organization, our government, or a corporation, and may not reflect at all the beliefs or wishes of the common US citizen.
The majority of anti-American sentiment in the world today exists not as a <i>direct</i> result of our government's policies, or corporate actions, or anything else similar. It is simply as easy thing to foster given that the US is currently the focal point for the entire world. This is not an arrogant statement. It is a fact proven every time a non-American media source airs or is published. What is nearly always amongst the main subjects? You guessed it, something concerning the US. Turn time back to 1942 and now what is the center of the world's attention? That little space in Europe known as Germany. At the time, every media outlet was locked on the German conflict. Germans to this day still receive anti-German sentiment, even though the blame did not lie with her everyday citizens.
Now, it is also highly suspect for anyone to blame anti-Americanism on any military conflict of which the US has ever taken part, no matter who was in the 'right'. Would it be at all acceptable for me, as an American, to continually bash Japanese because of the unprovoked attack that was made on the US in WWII? No it would not. People all over the world seemed to forget that ever happened, simply because the US dropped even bigger bombs on Japan in retaliation to end the conflict. I understand that it was not the greater population of Japan, nor its culture that caused this event.
As much as I'd love to jump straight into the heart of this entire debate, I do not have the time. It is fascinating to read some of the rationales though. My final word on this is simply, I really must question those who think of Americans as largely ignorant, undereducated, nationalistic (overly patriotic), apathetic, or whatever other broad stereotype one may choose to apply. It speaks volumes of the ignorance of the person who brands another (even a government) based on their own limited personal experience and knowledge of factual, non-biased information that would indicate such a condition.
American's love for America goes a long way to answering the question. You love being American, and therefore you can't understand why everyone else dosen't want to be Americans as well. Well, live with it. We don't.
There is much about the US that is beautiful. There is also much about the US that is very ugly: crime, violence, arrogance, complete insensitivity to other cultures. Your federal government often embarrasses you on the world stage. While you proport to be the bastion of democracy, your last presidential election was a world wide joke. (You better get a handle on that soon.)
You try to force your way of life on other countries. Your president wants to bring democracy to Iraq. Whose democracy? Yours? Who says Iraq wants democracy? You? As long as US foreign policy is dictated at the point of a gun, people are going to hate you. How many anti-american fighters did the Afgan bombing campaign generate? How many new terrorist cells will war with Iraq create?
There are lots of democracies in the world. Many are far older and more stable than your own. And terrorists are not targetting them. Because they are not IN YOUR FACE all the time.
American foreign policy needs to be re-aligned to reflect membership in a world community of cultures and political systems, not the current OUR WAY OR DOOMSDAY model.
As for the drivel in earlier posts about "we can take on the world" and "we don't need anyone else" and "you all depend on us for everything", you are just plain wrong. The world was not created in 1776: civilization has existed for 4000 years. The US is a relative newcomer. World trade existed before the US, military forces existed before the US, and democracy existed long before the US.
Why do people hate the US? What is your fatal flaw? The answer is millenia old. The Greeks identified it. Hubris. Pride. It "cometh before the fall." It is the flaw that destroys tragic heroes.
And Americans are very proud.
My American friends, I pray for you. But there are tears in my eyes.
It would have done wonders for your argument had you prefixed every instance of "you" with "my media says that". Very few Americans that I know fit the description that you have given, and I have lived and visited a lot of different places around the US.
I am not patriotic, but I also do not like being thrown into some poorly constructed category. Nor would you if I were to launch into a tirade about what is wrong with Canadians. I simply know that overgeneralization is a terrible error.
It would have done wonders for your argument had you prefixed every instance of "you" with "my media says that". Very few Americans that I know fit the description that you have given, and I have lived and visited a lot of different places around the US.
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It does not matter if you are like this or not. This is the face you put forward to the world. If it is inaccurate, then YOU need to take action to change it. Parking five aircraft carriers off the coast of some other sovereign nation is probably not the way to go.
Or simply tell us we are all wrong, that you are all great, and we should pray to god to be just like you.
But don't then ask "Why does everyone hate us.?"
For the philosophically challenged, here is an empirical way to answer the question:
Make a list of all the countires that the United States has attacked in the last 30 years. (there are a lot of them)
Then make a list of all the countires that close allies of the US have attacked with funding provided by the US (all of Israel's neighbours, for example . . .)
Make a third list of all the people to whom you have threatened military action, but did not actually do it.
Think of how many people you killed, maimed, and angered by doing so.
All these people now hate you. And most of thepeople who think you will attack or threaten them in the future also hate you.
Does that answer your question, or are we still at "The US is always right and the rest of the world is always wrong?"
If so, I have stopped praying for you, and started pitying you. I guess contempt can't be that far away.