I hate early quitting as much as the next guy, but sometimes marines just don't seem to get it. Don't stop attacking and fortify the whole map. That's not the objective. The objective is to kill the last hive. So do it stinkin' TODAY, not an hour from now. Yes, I fully support F4 in that situation.
Marines on the other hand have multiple spawn points, upgrades they automatically have once researched, and don't have to attempt to regain a particular location in order to be able to re-aquire technology.
On a side note, I'd rather see a team vote for the aliens - "Surrender?" instead of trying to use F4 for the same purpose.
There need to be some kind of penalty for stalling for too long. What I cannot figure out. This should go for aliens as well. Problem is, you need only one rambo marine to set up a forward base in a minute. And if a skulk drops by, you can shoot it and perhaps it will be another minute before another comes by, of if the aliens are good, a concerted attack.
As the game is now, the rewards for marines to camp a hive is larger and easier after you get a critical amount of turrets up and have phase gates. I've battled for half an hour to desperately try and wringe back a hive from the marines, and all our efforts were in vain. Mines, turrets, phase gating marines, siege gun. We just couldn't break their backs, using lerks, gorges and skulks. Soo frustrating. And Bringing up thoughts of Wanton F4'ing in the collective hive minds of us all.
For starters, not having res nozzles in the hives would help <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Just make them place sufficiently far away from the hive ...
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Mar 14 2003, 12:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 14 2003, 12:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On a side note, I'd rather see a team vote for the aliens - "Surrender?" instead of trying to use F4 for the same purpose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes indeed. Been suggested before and it's still a good idea.
Yes, F4ing quitters are quite lame, but I F4 when marines pull some stupid **** like this:
Aliens have ONE HIVE AND SENSORY. They are as WEAK AS THEY COME. Yet marines are such little **** they just CANT rush the skulks! OMG! What if my HMG GETS SCRATCHED OMG. They just have to sit outside and take their sweet **** time to build 23823920398203 siege cannons cuz they are too afraid to rush the one hive sensory skulks. I HATE this ****, I wish siege was removed from the game just so we could get some REAL marines and not some little wanker fartass pansies. The comm is spamming health packs EVERYWHERE, It is like IMPOSSIBLE to die yet they just have to sit outside and build siege cuz theyre lazy pansies. This is when I F4 out, cuz this is just some **** ****. The only other time I would F4 is when the marines are just sitting at the hive and blowing everything away BUT the hive itself just so they can sit there and spawn camp for all eternity.
If they removed siege, not for balance, just to get marines to actually do some WORK for a change, maybe F4 would be unnecessary.
Da_SargeOld School SuckJoin Date: 2002-10-15Member: 1502Members
Well...here comes my 1 1/2 cents. I can see the way you guys are talkin about how f4ing when the damned marines are playing like grandma's, but that isn't always the case. You'll always have people who realize that they are gonna loose midway in a game and just decide to stop trying. It's either win or do nothing for some people. WELL GUESS WHAT! You win some, you loose some.
Basically, some situations I guess its justifiable to use f4 to end a tedious game that could have been finished ages ago, but give the marines a chance. Don't just f4 the minute that marines manage to lockdown a second hive. If everyone behaved that way, Flayra could put in a trigger that just finished the game when marines occupy 2 hives.
To sum up my gabbering, its alright to use f4 when marines are being total idiots and just sitting on their arse, but otherwise STICK WITH IT. You chose to be on the alien team, so don't just bail the second things stop going your way. F4 should always just be a last resort.
Well actually, having a surrender vote would be great, and a much better alternative to the F4. People don't realise that when you F4, the surrendering team knows the game is over. They just try to shorten the inevitable, and F4ing is usually caused by lame stalling tactics.
If this is all about semantics then why are people complaining? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because if you 'vote' to surrender by using f4, you're also outting your team one player making it even harder. In other words, 2 people can FORCE their team to 'surrender or lose' because they'll be short two players. EVEN IF the rest of the team would rather not surrender. (I'm not talking about 'llama' tactics here, I'm saying that the results of a vote shouldn't take effect until the votes are tallied.)
I always find it a little ironic when aliens start yelling "kill us already" and yet they are fighting with all their strength to prevent their own end ? Seems a little odd to be actively resisting and yet complaining because your foe cannot best you.
Even with a single hive (depending on how the game has gone) it can be a non-trivial task to finish the game off.
As for f4'ing. I think it should be used <b> as a last resort only </b>. Why you ask ? Sportsmanship, plain and simple. In most sports one team doesn't just quit because the chance of a win is unlikely. For me it is very satisfying to wipe the opposition off the map - not to have them just teleport out of existence.
Again the only time f4 should be used imo is when one team drags their feet beyond a reasonable period ( 20 minutes lets say) , or one team suddenly loses half of its members or something.
20 minutes? Some of us have lives away from this game you know. If I'm an alien in a two hive lock down game and it's been more than 5 minutes with out any advancement on the part of the marines then it is F4 and out, and if no one follows I'll find another game because I am here to play gentlemen. Waiting for them to trudge down the endless hallways in their HA after they finally get everyone in to it just so you can have the honor of being annihilated is not my idea of playing. If I F4 it means you beat me, lets play another. I'm not insulting you, I'm saying I can't win and and would rather recognize this fact than pretend when I could be playing a new game. I wouldn't mind seeing an F4 countdown or something similar as has been mentioned, but don't take away our right to end a pointless game. I just can't understand some of you peoples problem with this, lame F4 use is bad, but it has legitimate uses, such as getting the next game going as quickly as possible.
*Urge to flame rising... I'd like to ask what server admins that ban/kick for f4ing do to people that get fed up and just leave themselves... and explain how that is different than f4ing. Ban/kicking just because you didn't get "TEH LAST KILLZ!!" is not cool at all. Kick, okay maybe that. Free up a slot. Whatever. But ban is going waaaaaaaaaaay to far something like that. Please think about it before you do stuff like that. And don't just think "it's my server, I'll do what I want" because if you want a mature server, you have to act mature yourselves. Insta-ban with no GOOD excuse is highly immature. Alright? *Deep breaths... slow breaths... *Urge to flame receding...
I'm sure 1.1 will implement some measures so the "aliens always f4" thing becomes a thing of the past. Maybe some one hive: <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
A marine win is almost always a -very- slow death. When you assualt the last hive unupgraded skulks pop out, take a split second to realise where they spawned at, and then try to throw themselves at you before you realise they've spawned.. 95% of the time failing to even inflict damage. Once that skulk dies he usualy has to wait about 30 seconds to 2 minutes to respawn just to try again.
An alien win is usually quick and over before marines know what hit them. Half their team may be out building something while a couple skulks eat their IPs then swarm the com that hops out of the chair trying to defend his base. Or if it gets to more than one hive, and aliens mass assualt the marine base, marines still have one hell of a fighting chance. Not only can they drop HMGs, GLs, SGs, JPs and HAs instantly once a marine spawns.. but a marine almost never stays dead long. By the time aliens have a second hvie, marines usually have 2+ IPs, and an observitory hidden in the back of their base ready to use distress beacon if more than 5 marines are dead at a time. Not only can a "fresh out of the spawn" marine kill low level aliens no problem (skulks lerks gorges) they can swarm large aliens with sprays of LMG fire and scare them off, or kill them.
Thus the reasons why marines don't F4 nearly as much as aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Redcap+Mar 14 2003, 02:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redcap @ Mar 14 2003, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 20 minutes? Some of us have lives away from this game you know. If I'm an alien in a two hive lock down game and it's been more than 5 minutes with out any advancement on the part of the marines then it is F4 and out, and if no one follows I'll find another game because I am here to play gentlemen. Waiting for them to trudge down the endless hallways in their HA after they finally get everyone in to it just so you can have the honor of being annihilated is not my idea of playing. If I F4 it means you beat me, lets play another. I'm not insulting you, I'm saying I can't win and and would rather recognize this fact than pretend when I could be playing a new game. I wouldn't mind seeing an F4 countdown or something similar as has been mentioned, but don't take away our right to end a pointless game. I just can't understand some of you peoples problem with this, lame F4 use is bad, but it has legitimate uses, such as getting the next game going as quickly as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I have a life away from the game too. One that demands a standard 8 hour work day amongst other things.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. I know that you are here to play and so am I. The point I tried to make is that it is <b>very unsatisfactory</b> for some people when their opponents suddenly warp out of existence <---- That is the key issue. It is an <b>anti-climax</b> when you're about to make that final assault and suddenly by an act of some random god or other the game just suddenly ends *poof* It may not seem like that big of an issue to you, but I think it matters quite alot to others (including me). You claim that its "wasting time" and yet without a proper ending to the game it feels like the entire exercise has been a waste of time as far as I'm concerned.
If for some reason the game really does drag (beyond 20 minutes or so) then yes I can understand using f4 to speed things up. I think it shows respect for your fellow players (manners in cyberspace ? is their such a concept I wonder) to at least give them a chance to win properly.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Flayra says the ideal game is 30 minutes long. NS is NOT supposed to end that quickly. you want fast? go play CS.
Anyway, I say we give the aliens an ability to magically give the marines any amount they want. That way, the marines can tech up quickly and finish the aliens off. (Of course this has to be put to a vote) It's either that, or stop resisting! It's damn hard to kill the last alien hive when you have no upgrades, and the gorge has put up 10 WOLs, blocking off every path. And if yuor entire tema is out killing, and there are no defense sint he hives, skulks can EASILY take the hives back and WIN it for the aliens. That is why the marines turret up the hives and mine everything. So, either give the marines res, or simply stop fighting. If you stop resisting they will kill you quickly.
On f4ing to end a game. Before f4 was even introduced I had a topic asking how people felt about playing a game where all the team on one side left when they were getting owned. From the greater response, we eventually got the f4 simply because it keeps the server full.
For those of you who refuse to play a server that does not allow f4ing, check out Nano Gridlock. I'm not sure about the current one, but the old one reserved the right to kick/ban you. Didn't see it happen often because it didn't happen. But I'll tell you right now, the best games are the ones made from comebacks because people don't leave. Stalemates are often only broken by a team that starts to lose players. But when the stalemates are so good that a game lasts 3 hours in constant battles back and forth, you get a good game. *Edit* If you don't want to spend the time playing an hour game, and are up for a quick 20 minute round, that's cool. But understand that there is no guarenteed thing that is gonna make your game 5 minutes or 5 hours. If you don't want to finish it, it's better for you to leave the server and open your slot to a newcomer than to prevent people from joining in. I do like servers that implement a boot or forced team join for people in the ready room. */Edit* I can understand f4ing to end something like marines spawn camping you and refusing to finish the game, or a lamer commander who builds 3 CCs right away. But when it comes down to it, I haven't hit my f4 key in about 2 months. I've come to the belief that the game is best played when you play it to the end. Doesn't really matter if I'm losing, I can get practice too. I've played games where 2 hive lockdowns with HA/HMGs fail because the aliens didn't give up. The marines were newbies of course, but if you're against newbies, that's all the more reason not to f4. You still have more of a fighting chance. Simple fact is, after playing on a server that disallows f4ing, I don't really regard it as a viable strategy for ending a game. Just let the winning team end it and fight until the end. You'd be suprised how many "lucky" comebacks you can get. It's a teamplay based game, and losing any player to f4ing hurts any team your on. I agree with Moon's statement. It is a sportsmanship thing. The simple fact is, I see a lot of games where somebody decides that it is lost. They say "It's over. I'm f4ing because the other team isn't finishing it." They sit in the ready room for a minute because nobody is going with them. Then they come back. And they don't say another word because they realized that just about any situation is salvagable. (Granted, HA/HMG against 1 hive skulks is hardly saveable, but in that case, have a little fun. Don't take it so seriously.)
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Mar 14 2003, 01:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Mar 14 2003, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I always find it a little ironic when aliens start yelling "kill us already" and yet they are fighting with all their strength to prevent their own end ? Seems a little odd to be actively resisting and yet complaining because your foe cannot best you.
Even with a single hive (depending on how the game has gone) it can be a non-trivial task to finish the game off.
As for f4'ing. I think it should be used <b> as a last resort only </b>. Why you ask ? Sportsmanship, plain and simple. In most sports one team doesn't just quit because the chance of a win is unlikely. For me it is very satisfying to wipe the opposition off the map - not to have them just teleport out of existence.
Again the only time f4 should be used imo is when one team drags their feet beyond a reasonable period ( 20 minutes lets say) , or one team suddenly loses half of its members or something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course the aliens resist as long as they're in the game. If you want them to just sit in their hive without moving, letting you walk in and shoot the hive to pieces without offering any resistance, that's mostly the same as an F4, except for the aliens being useless in the main map instead of the RR, and lasting a little longer.
Besides, while hopeless situations are boring if they last to long, they're still a good opportunity for some practice. Especially because the alien res is generally maxed out, there's no penalty for doing some lerk practice or even a gorge rush (not that it will succeed, but at least you get some fun).
And indeed, in most big spectator sports teams play until the game is over, but I think that's mainly to prevent riots <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> In games with fewer spectators, like chess for example, stopping before checkmate isn't that uncommon.
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Mar 14 2003, 10:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Mar 14 2003, 10:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [QUOTE=Redcap,Mar 14 2003, 02:15 AM] I think we will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. I know that you are here to play and so am I. The point I tried to make is that it is <b>very unsatisfactory</b> for some people when their opponents suddenly warp out of existence <---- That is the key issue. It is an <b>anti-climax</b> when you're about to make that final assault and suddenly by an act of some random god or other the game just suddenly ends *poof* It may not seem like that big of an issue to you, but I think it matters quite alot to others (including me). You claim that its "wasting time" and yet without a proper ending to the game it feels like the entire exercise has been a waste of time as far as I'm concerned.
If for some reason the game really does drag (beyond 20 minutes or so) then yes I can understand using f4 to speed things up. I think it shows respect for your fellow players (manners in cyberspace ? is their such a concept I wonder) to at least give them a chance to win properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright a few things:
"<b>very unsatisfactory</b>" It's only very unsatisfactory because you didn't get to joyously march around in your HA crushing the opposition in an act of pure self-gratification. You already know you've won. Maybe you considerate it your little reward after successfully defending 2 hives, and now you get to play with new toys, but it's just pitifully boring for the other team.
"It is an <b>anti-climax</b> when you're about to make that final assault and suddenly by an act of some random god or other the game just suddenly ends *poof* It may not seem like that big of an issue to you, but I think it matters quite alot to others"
Exactly. That "final" assault. The assault that will end the game in your favor anyway. So cut to the chase and let's play a new game where the outcome isn't already decided.
"If for some reason the game really does drag (beyond 20 minutes or so) then yes I can understand using f4 to speed things up."
Well I think most games go beyond the 20 minute mark anyways. So if you're complaining about alien teams F4ing because you laid some mines down then your critisicms are warranted, only because the game isn't 'won' at that point.
If the marines are teched up and turtled in two hives and won't come kill me, I'll fight. But I'm only willing to fight so long, because it's boring to be splattered by turrets and HMGs over and over. If you kick or ban me for f4'ing, fine. There is no shortage of servers.
Whoever made the point about the pro-F4ers not wanting to play long games, you misunderstood us (or at least me, but I think most of the pro-crowd is in agreeance). Not a big suprise, since you misunderstand the F4 option as well.
We dont mind playing 3 hour games. As long as we are playing, and there is a chance. But we value our time, and if the marines are in a position to take out the last hive with HA/HMGs, and have a 90% chance of success (the 10 or so % being player skill), then they should. I give marines in this position a good 5 to 10 minutes, closer to 5, but sometimes 10. If I havent seen any HMGs or HA, sure, take 10 minutes to build up and drop a few.
But if we have been fighting HMGs and HA, then in 5 minutes, the comm. should be able to outfit a team and get them to the last hive. Its not that hard people.
But hey, like the last guy said, F4 = kick/ban? Sure thing buddy, we'll find other servers. Just dont ask for it to be taken out of the game, and stay on your ban happy server where you belong. We'll stay off it as well. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
When aliens come knocking to kill the marines, the battle is tense and allows for some real skills from both alien and marine side - as a marine, it's always fun to taunt the aliens with a "3rd Fade for today" or the ever popular "knife >> Onos". Using GL spam correctly, ambushing with a shotgun, rushing the gorge etc... Distress beacon and 2-3 IP's ensures that you don't sit in the spawn queue for long, and even the trickle of res coming in from a single restower is enough for a welder or the occasional HMG/shotgun/GL. If you are sitting in a hive, you even have a remote chance of actually winning the game if you can hold out long enough.
A group of HA guys with HMG/GL that knows how to use a welder, against hive 1 aliens? There is just nothing you can do as alien against them. With just one hive,spawnrate means that if you die, you may have to wait 1-2 minutes before respawning. Just how much fun is that?
Bet you that if there were the equvalent of a distress beacon on the alien side, or the ability to build extra respawning chambers, there would be much less F4'ing. Paying personal res to respawn faster would be neat as well... anything to avoid just sitting in spawn queue watching the HA guys raping the few skulks still alive.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
yup, again most of the people arguing against F4 seem not to read our posts.
I LOVE LONG GAMES!!!
I played a game (1.0) were we came back from 0 hives and 1 player vs 8 I was the sole gorge, I had run of to start building a second hive and my team never bothered trying to stop them from attacking our first hive. My entire team left/switched to the other team. I built a hive (maint), heavily fortified it (tons of OCs and DC) and just held it untill I had a team agin, some one cleared out EC, I built there repeat untill we had 3 hives. (It was only about 1 min till I had the hive up b/c It was already building when the first went down)
As I said, long games are fun. However if one team is simply prolonging it (and 20 mins is not prolonging that is being a fn jack***).
As for ppl yelling at the stupid marines "COME KILL US ALREADY!", yah you have proably played a game with me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I will fight as long as I am in, I WILL NOT give an esay victory to ANYONE. I will take away your jerkoff time when you are playing with your fn toys if you don't try and further the game.
Think about it like a round of CS, if the CT don't loose a single player, and all but one T dies. The T then goes and stands in his spawn (he is out of ammo for all his weps) and the CTs decide to sky walk around and just goof off. That would suck.
Remember, I am here to have fun, thus why I don't like exploiters, cheaters, llamas, and those who refuse to end the game.
Hell, if thwey can't seem to end it I will TELL them how, I will sit there and direct them as to how they could very simply siege our last hive (or how to properly use a hvu welding death ball).
I don't like waiting 5 mins for while some idiots sit around and don't do anything.
The longer a game takes the more it favours the marines because of: - Marine upgrades take more time than Alien upgrades. - Marines dont need as much resource nodes as aliens. - Marines most time win the best way with slow defensive forward pushing, while aliens are more "rushers".
If marines play with time (and grenades) on their side and aliens were unable to kill any marine resource outposts, aliens made one of those things wrong: - Not enough Alien Resources, or too much resources not used (chicken Fades that fear death too much). - No lerks with carpace. - No Fades going close combat. - No gorge going frontline do heal, build and web in battle (and not just WOL ath the hives).
My point was not that I hate long games, my point was that once it turns into throwing yourself at turret farms while waiting for them to tech up and slowly march over to finish you off it's no longer a game at all. I'm not talking about just a 2 hives held by marines situation, people who F4 that early annoy me too, I'm talking about a 2 hive lock down. One where hive 1 aliens just aren't going to take another hive and the marines won't get over to the last hive and finish it off. That isn't a game at all. A game by it's very nature requires that both sides have a chance of winning, that's why trying to convince my friends that the themed paintball game in which my team gets all the guns and the oppossing team runs and screams alot is a good idea doesn't usually work out. In short, if the marines are actually attacking, then I'm in till mother is dead, but don't expect me to throw myself at turret farms in boredom while you wait to tech up. Quitting an untenable situation is not wrong, look at the chess world, when you know it's over, it's over.
Point 1: The marines 'basic 0 res' player remains viable throughout the game. If the commander is doing his job, the marines will have ammo/armor upgrades. So a marine fresh off the spawn portal can be effective against any level alien. (to what extent will vary, but in groups they can prevail)
The aliens 'basic 0 res' player becomes less and less viable thoughout the game. As the marine technology increases, the basic skulk becomes less of a fighter and more of a nuisance to the marine team. (in a one hive game) Even an upgrade like level 3 carapace is no match to an upgraded marine.
Point 2: The marine game usually will not end until the command chair is killed. As such, the marines always have a fighting chance because even if they have NO hives they still have piles of res coming in from 1-2 nodes and can equip marines with heavy equipment. When the marine game is about to end, the marines can put up a good fight to the end, and once the command chair is gone it's game over.
The alien game will not end until the last hive is killed. However, what usually happens is that the marines lock down two hives and SLOWLY tech up, while the aliens try throwing their level 0 bodies at them. Even if a few aliens have the chance to go fade, it's only a matter of time before they are killed, (usually by a level 0 marine that cost 0 res but who had the ammo/armor upgrades) and with the alien res economy being as poor as it is, they will not be able to go fade again. So now the marines become stronger to the point where they cannot be overcome. HOWEVER, they usually don't finish the game then, and it can often take 30 minutes or more for the game to end.
Answer me this. Who wants to play a game that you KNOW you are going to lose?
The problem is that the aliens are NOT viable in the end game, while the marines are. Thus the aliens tend to F4 FAR more often in the games, even though on pub servers the aliens supposedly win more often.
Now, a 'BAN' for using F4 on "your server"? OK, you wannna play that way? Sure. So how about this? I take the alien team up to marine spawn and wipe out everything BUT a single IP, and then barricade the exits with OCs/DCs. Now they can spawn and have NO CHANCE to win. We could continue killing them for hours. Skulk rush one time, babble rush another, lerk spores another. Would you object to this? Would you ban the marines if they hit F4 to end it? You DID say NO EXCEPTIONS right? What would happen if YOU were on the other team, would you ban yourself? You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now would you?
I'm with the other people here. I'll NEVER play on servers that have that kind of policy, and I know most people won't once they hear of it either. If you want to play that way on your server, that's your business. If that means I get banned from your server, then I don't have a problem with that. Until the game is balanced you're going to be VERY busy with all the bans. Just remember you are in the minority.
F4 is part of the game. People should be able to resign. I'll tell you this, you need to have a LOT more guts to openly admit defeat and resign than to be a gun-ho yahoo and go out with guns blazing.
However as noted on other threads, the problem is not F4, the problem is that the game is not balanced. Marines get too strong too fast, and they reach a point where the aliens have NO chance of a comeback. Of all the games I have played, the marines NEVER used F4 because they were losing the game. (the only times I have seen Marines use F4 is when the comm pulls a noob move like dropping comm chairs at the beginning etc)
Why don't the marines do it? ...because the marines are NEVER in a no-win situation like the aliens. They have a strong economy and keep their upgrades even if the structures are destroyed. There is no penalty for the marines, they just have to turtle for a bit and come out with heavies blazing.
As alien, many people want to F4 since they KNOW the game is so unbalanced that they have no chance to win. Usually that means marines have 2 hives locked down with a dozen or more turrets each and they have heavies at both making sure we don't take them down. Or maybe they completed a cheap tech rush and have wiped out one hive and basically screwed the aliens for hive two.
At present, the game is the marine's to win. If they have a competent comm and skilled players, there is a very high chance they will win regardless of what the aliens do. The marine economy is extremely strong, and only a couple res nodes will net marines an inexhaustible supply of upgrades that they CANNOT LOSE. Once marines get an upgrade, they will NEVER lose it.
On the other hand, aliens have to scrimp and save for any upgrade chambers. Once they are destroyed, they LOSE those upgrades. The alien economy is weak, and as such if an alien saves up to go fade, and they get killed, then there is a obscene wait to go fade again. On the other hand, a marine can go HA/HMG, go out and die, and go HA/HMG right away.
Let's look at the facts. Marines get:
-THREE LEVELS of available INHERANT armor upgrades (that never go away) -THREE LEVELS of available INHERANT ammo upgrades (that never go away) -THREE ADDITIONAL types of weapons above and beyond their basic weapon -ADDITIONAL HEAVY ARMOR which gains an ADDITIONAL inherent armor bonus -AVAILABLE BUILT-IN 'WALL HACK' to detail all alien's locations continually -PHASE GATES to traverse the map instantly and rush front lines -DISTRESS BEACON to be able to clear out your spawn queue for a cheap price -ABILITY to build multiple spawn portals to increase spawn rate -Jetpacks, Welders etc -Command chair has 10000hp
Alternately, Aliens get: -Defence Chambers (one very useful skill that can be lost if chamber killed) -Movement Chambers (one moderately useful skill that can be lost if chamber killed) -Sensory Chambers (one slightly useful skill that can be lost if chamber killed) -Ability to evolve to more powerful (2+ hive) aliens once or twice in game (restricted by resource flow and built hives - once dead you usually cant evolve again for an extended period of time) -Hive has 6000hp
Aliens don't get: -the ability to use a 'distress beacon' so a full queue cannot be cleared -the ability to see marine movements unless they physically see or parasite them -the ability to use a chamber to 'rush' the front lines if desired -any kind of upgrade that will increase AMMO damage against marines -the ability to build spawn portals - must wait and build expensive hives -much more etc...
Let's look a bit closer at spawn rates:
Skulks, especially those without carapace, are EASY to kill at the worst of times. Only lone marines have anything to fear from skulks. A group of attentive marines can make fast work of up to twice the number of skulks because they can fire at range.
This inherent advantage for marines leads marines to 'suicide rush' since they know with complete certainty that they will have their entire team fully respawned before the aliens will.
Let's do the math here: (Calculations assume teams of equal skill in an early one hive game)
You have a 13 on 13 game and both teams are trying to take/hold a particular area. You have 1 commander and 1 gorge, so 12 players on each team are 'active' on the playing field.
Although it wouldn't happen this way, let's look at a worst case scenario. The 24 players all rush the same area and there is a bloodbath. EVERYONE dies.
12 marines in spawn queue + 2 spawn portals + 10 second respawn rate = 60 seconds to respawn team
12 aliens in respawn queue + 1 active hive + 8 second respawn rate = 96 seconds to respawn team
That means that if both teams want to fight for that same location, the full 12 marines can now go back to that same spot and there will only be 7 aliens there to battle against them. That means marines have the manpower advantage, and they will most certainly prevail. From there it is downhill since the marines will ALWAYS have more men there and as such will be able to repel ANY assault. If the aliens wait to get to full strength, then they are greeted by a turret farm.
A difference in spawn rates causes a FUNDEMENTAL shift in balance any time a team loses more than one player at a time. As such, I feel it makes the game infinitely harder to balance.
Yeah, I think marines are stronger in the game.
So let's go back to the 'Q' word. I don't consider using F4 as quitting. I play chess and I have no problems resigning a game. Am I quitting? No. I am acknowledging to the other player that they have a superior position and that I have no reasonable expectation to win. As such, I consider it RESPECTFUL to resign when I feel the game is lost.
It's not about 'quitting' or 'giving up'. It's about being realistic and using common sense. If you know you are going to lose, then there is no shame in being honest about it. Why fight the inevitable, especially in an imbalanced situation?
The problem with this game is that a one hive alien team becomes less and less viable each minute that goes by since the marines keep getting stringer with their upgrades. Higher-level marine upgrades are meant to make marines competitive against fades; they make marines near impossible to kill as skulks.
So yeah, when the marines have level 3 upgrades and we only have one hive because we were out-spawned by the marines while fighting to take a second hive, then yeah, F4 makes a lot of sense.
The marines never F4 since they NEVER have the problem where they are not viable. When the marines are not viable and are vulnerable to be killed, the aliens move in and kill the base. Game over.
The aliens on the other hand often have to wait an hour while the marines sit with two hives locked down and slowly tech up at their leisure. No need to take a risk since they know if they wait they CANNOT LOSE.
Yeah, F4 looks better all the time.
If people want to stop alien teams from using F4, then they'll need to make one-hive aliens more viable in the later game.
I'm not a bot for someone to repeatedly use for target practice. If the game gets to the point where there is NO chance for my team to win, then why should I wait for 30 minutes or an hour for the other team to finish us off? Why should I be forced to play a game I know I won't win?
I won't.
I'm a human being and I refuse to allow myself to be intentionally and consciously degraded for someone else's pleasure. No 'ban' will change my mind.
<!--QuoteBegin--Vimstl+Mar 13 2003, 12:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vimstl @ Mar 13 2003, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cyborgguineapig+Mar 13 2003, 07:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyborgguineapig @ Mar 13 2003, 07:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Press F4 and expect to be Kicked or banned. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please post the name(s) of servers that kick/ban people for pressing F4, so I can avoid them like the festering venerial disease that they are. For heaven's sake, people, don't be so foolish.
And forget the "it's our server - we'll do what we like" flames. Yes it's your server, but you will be very lonely if nobody comes to play because you have firmly shoved your head up your posterior.
Have a nice day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said
<!--QuoteBegin--Redcap+Mar 14 2003, 10:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redcap @ Mar 14 2003, 10:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A game by it's very nature requires that both sides have a chance of winning, that's why trying to convince my friends that the themed paintball game in which my team gets all the guns and the oppossing team runs and screams alot is a good idea doesn't usually work out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LMAO!!!
Really, I'm lucky I had my office door closed. Gees, gotta warn a guy next time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
When playing as Aliens, and the marines are clearly going to win, it's no fun, and even though I can skulk a heavy no problem, when I do it's big deal, but when a bunch of marines with LMG's take down that onos as he rips the last shred of there "base" apart, the screams and jubilation comming from the marine side would make it seem like they won. It's not fun to be losing as aliens, but when your marine, you get to have much more action, because HMG's just shred newly spawned skulks <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Yesssss.
I hate early quitting as much as the next guy, but sometimes marines just don't seem to get it. Don't stop attacking and fortify the whole map. That's not the objective. The objective is to kill the last hive. So do it stinkin' TODAY, not an hour from now. Yes, I fully support F4 in that situation.
Marines on the other hand have multiple spawn points, upgrades they automatically have once researched, and don't have to attempt to regain a particular location in order to be able to re-aquire technology.
On a side note, I'd rather see a team vote for the aliens - "Surrender?" instead of trying to use F4 for the same purpose.
As the game is now, the rewards for marines to camp a hive is larger and easier after you get a critical amount of turrets up and have phase gates. I've battled for half an hour to desperately try and wringe back a hive from the marines, and all our efforts were in vain. Mines, turrets, phase gating marines, siege gun. We just couldn't break their backs, using lerks, gorges and skulks. Soo frustrating. And Bringing up thoughts of Wanton F4'ing in the collective hive minds of us all.
For starters, not having res nozzles in the hives would help <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Just make them place sufficiently far away from the hive ...
Yes indeed. Been suggested before and it's still a good idea.
Yes, F4ing quitters are quite lame, but I F4 when marines pull some stupid **** like this:
Aliens have ONE HIVE AND SENSORY. They are as WEAK AS THEY COME. Yet marines are such little **** they just CANT rush the skulks! OMG! What if my HMG GETS SCRATCHED OMG. They just have to sit outside and take their sweet **** time to build 23823920398203 siege cannons cuz they are too afraid to rush the one hive sensory skulks. I HATE this ****, I wish siege was removed from the game just so we could get some REAL marines and not some little wanker fartass pansies. The comm is spamming health packs EVERYWHERE, It is like IMPOSSIBLE to die yet they just have to sit outside and build siege cuz theyre lazy pansies. This is when I F4 out, cuz this is just some **** ****. The only other time I would F4 is when the marines are just sitting at the hive and blowing everything away BUT the hive itself just so they can sit there and spawn camp for all eternity.
If they removed siege, not for balance, just to get marines to actually do some WORK for a change, maybe F4 would be unnecessary.
Basically, some situations I guess its justifiable to use f4 to end a tedious game that could have been finished ages ago, but give the marines a chance. Don't just f4 the minute that marines manage to lockdown a second hive. If everyone behaved that way, Flayra could put in a trigger that just finished the game when marines occupy 2 hives.
To sum up my gabbering, its alright to use f4 when marines are being total idiots and just sitting on their arse, but otherwise STICK WITH IT. You chose to be on the alien team, so don't just bail the second things stop going your way. F4 should always just be a last resort.
F4=Surrender
If this is all about semantics then why are people complaining?
The best way to vote is with your feet.
Regrads,
Savant
F4=Surrender
If this is all about semantics then why are people complaining? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if you 'vote' to surrender by using f4, you're also outting your team one player making it even harder. In other words, 2 people can FORCE their team to 'surrender or lose' because they'll be short two players. EVEN IF the rest of the team would rather not surrender. (I'm not talking about 'llama' tactics here, I'm saying that the results of a vote shouldn't take effect until the votes are tallied.)
Even with a single hive (depending on how the game has gone) it can be a non-trivial task to finish the game off.
As for f4'ing. I think it should be used <b> as a last resort only </b>. Why you ask ? Sportsmanship, plain and simple. In most sports one team doesn't just quit because the chance of a win is unlikely. For me it is very satisfying to wipe the opposition off the map - not to have them just teleport out of existence.
Again the only time f4 should be used imo is when one team drags their feet beyond a reasonable period ( 20 minutes lets say) , or one team suddenly loses half of its members or something.
I'd like to ask what server admins that ban/kick for f4ing do to people that get fed up and just leave themselves... and explain how that is different than f4ing. Ban/kicking just because you didn't get "TEH LAST KILLZ!!" is not cool at all. Kick, okay maybe that. Free up a slot. Whatever. But ban is going waaaaaaaaaaay to far something like that. Please think about it before you do stuff like that. And don't just think "it's my server, I'll do what I want" because if you want a mature server, you have to act mature yourselves. Insta-ban with no GOOD excuse is highly immature. Alright?
*Deep breaths... slow breaths...
*Urge to flame receding...
I'm sure 1.1 will implement some measures so the "aliens always f4" thing becomes a thing of the past. Maybe some one hive: <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
An alien win is usually quick and over before marines know what hit them. Half their team may be out building something while a couple skulks eat their IPs then swarm the com that hops out of the chair trying to defend his base. Or if it gets to more than one hive, and aliens mass assualt the marine base, marines still have one hell of a fighting chance. Not only can they drop HMGs, GLs, SGs, JPs and HAs instantly once a marine spawns.. but a marine almost never stays dead long. By the time aliens have a second hvie, marines usually have 2+ IPs, and an observitory hidden in the back of their base ready to use distress beacon if more than 5 marines are dead at a time. Not only can a "fresh out of the spawn" marine kill low level aliens no problem (skulks lerks gorges) they can swarm large aliens with sprays of LMG fire and scare them off, or kill them.
Thus the reasons why marines don't F4 nearly as much as aliens.
Actually I have a life away from the game too. One that demands a standard 8 hour work day amongst other things.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. I know that you are here to play and so am I. The point I tried to make is that it is <b>very unsatisfactory</b> for some people when their opponents suddenly warp out of existence <---- That is the key issue. It is an <b>anti-climax</b> when you're about to make that final assault and suddenly by an act of some random god or other the game just suddenly ends *poof* It may not seem like that big of an issue to you, but I think it matters quite alot to others (including me). You claim that its "wasting time" and yet without a proper ending to the game it feels like the entire exercise has been a waste of time as far as I'm concerned.
If for some reason the game really does drag (beyond 20 minutes or so) then yes I can understand using f4 to speed things up. I think it shows respect for your fellow players (manners in cyberspace ? is their such a concept I wonder) to at least give them a chance to win properly.
Anyway, I say we give the aliens an ability to magically give the marines any amount they want. That way, the marines can tech up quickly and finish the aliens off. (Of course this has to be put to a vote) It's either that, or stop resisting! It's damn hard to kill the last alien hive when you have no upgrades, and the gorge has put up 10 WOLs, blocking off every path. And if yuor entire tema is out killing, and there are no defense sint he hives, skulks can EASILY take the hives back and WIN it for the aliens. That is why the marines turret up the hives and mine everything. So, either give the marines res, or simply stop fighting. If you stop resisting they will kill you quickly.
For those of you who refuse to play a server that does not allow f4ing, check out Nano Gridlock. I'm not sure about the current one, but the old one reserved the right to kick/ban you. Didn't see it happen often because it didn't happen. But I'll tell you right now, the best games are the ones made from comebacks because people don't leave.
Stalemates are often only broken by a team that starts to lose players. But when the stalemates are so good that a game lasts 3 hours in constant battles back and forth, you get a good game.
*Edit* If you don't want to spend the time playing an hour game, and are up for a quick 20 minute round, that's cool. But understand that there is no guarenteed thing that is gonna make your game 5 minutes or 5 hours. If you don't want to finish it, it's better for you to leave the server and open your slot to a newcomer than to prevent people from joining in. I do like servers that implement a boot or forced team join for people in the ready room.
*/Edit*
I can understand f4ing to end something like marines spawn camping you and refusing to finish the game, or a lamer commander who builds 3 CCs right away. But when it comes down to it, I haven't hit my f4 key in about 2 months. I've come to the belief that the game is best played when you play it to the end. Doesn't really matter if I'm losing, I can get practice too.
I've played games where 2 hive lockdowns with HA/HMGs fail because the aliens didn't give up. The marines were newbies of course, but if you're against newbies, that's all the more reason not to f4. You still have more of a fighting chance.
Simple fact is, after playing on a server that disallows f4ing, I don't really regard it as a viable strategy for ending a game. Just let the winning team end it and fight until the end. You'd be suprised how many "lucky" comebacks you can get.
It's a teamplay based game, and losing any player to f4ing hurts any team your on. I agree with Moon's statement. It is a sportsmanship thing.
The simple fact is, I see a lot of games where somebody decides that it is lost. They say "It's over. I'm f4ing because the other team isn't finishing it." They sit in the ready room for a minute because nobody is going with them. Then they come back. And they don't say another word because they realized that just about any situation is salvagable. (Granted, HA/HMG against 1 hive skulks is hardly saveable, but in that case, have a little fun. Don't take it so seriously.)
Even with a single hive (depending on how the game has gone) it can be a non-trivial task to finish the game off.
As for f4'ing. I think it should be used <b> as a last resort only </b>. Why you ask ? Sportsmanship, plain and simple. In most sports one team doesn't just quit because the chance of a win is unlikely. For me it is very satisfying to wipe the opposition off the map - not to have them just teleport out of existence.
Again the only time f4 should be used imo is when one team drags their feet beyond a reasonable period ( 20 minutes lets say) , or one team suddenly loses half of its members or something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course the aliens resist as long as they're in the game. If you want them to just sit in their hive without moving, letting you walk in and shoot the hive to pieces without offering any resistance, that's mostly the same as an F4, except for the aliens being useless in the main map instead of the RR, and lasting a little longer.
Besides, while hopeless situations are boring if they last to long, they're still a good opportunity for some practice. Especially because the alien res is generally maxed out, there's no penalty for doing some lerk practice or even a gorge rush (not that it will succeed, but at least you get some fun).
And indeed, in most big spectator sports teams play until the game is over, but I think that's mainly to prevent riots <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
In games with fewer spectators, like chess for example, stopping before checkmate isn't that uncommon.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. I know that you are here to play and so am I. The point I tried to make is that it is <b>very unsatisfactory</b> for some people when their opponents suddenly warp out of existence <---- That is the key issue. It is an <b>anti-climax</b> when you're about to make that final assault and suddenly by an act of some random god or other the game just suddenly ends *poof* It may not seem like that big of an issue to you, but I think it matters quite alot to others (including me). You claim that its "wasting time" and yet without a proper ending to the game it feels like the entire exercise has been a waste of time as far as I'm concerned.
If for some reason the game really does drag (beyond 20 minutes or so) then yes I can understand using f4 to speed things up. I think it shows respect for your fellow players (manners in cyberspace ? is their such a concept I wonder) to at least give them a chance to win properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright a few things:
"<b>very unsatisfactory</b>" It's only very unsatisfactory because you didn't get to joyously march around in your HA crushing the opposition in an act of pure self-gratification. You already know you've won.
Maybe you considerate it your little reward after successfully defending 2 hives, and now you get to play with new toys, but it's just pitifully boring for the other team.
"It is an <b>anti-climax</b> when you're about to make that final assault and suddenly by an act of some random god or other the game just suddenly ends *poof* It may not seem like that big of an issue to you, but I think it matters quite alot to others"
Exactly. That "final" assault. The assault that will end the game in your favor anyway. So cut to the chase and let's play a new game where the outcome isn't already decided.
"If for some reason the game really does drag (beyond 20 minutes or so) then yes I can understand using f4 to speed things up."
Well I think most games go beyond the 20 minute mark anyways. So if you're complaining about alien teams F4ing because you laid some mines down then your critisicms are warranted, only because the game isn't 'won' at that point.
We dont mind playing 3 hour games. As long as we are playing, and there is a chance. But we value our time, and if the marines are in a position to take out the last hive with HA/HMGs, and have a 90% chance of success (the 10 or so % being player skill), then they should. I give marines in this position a good 5 to 10 minutes, closer to 5, but sometimes 10. If I havent seen any HMGs or HA, sure, take 10 minutes to build up and drop a few.
But if we have been fighting HMGs and HA, then in 5 minutes, the comm. should be able to outfit a team and get them to the last hive. Its not that hard people.
But hey, like the last guy said, F4 = kick/ban? Sure thing buddy, we'll find other servers. Just dont ask for it to be taken out of the game, and stay on your ban happy server where you belong. We'll stay off it as well. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sifo
marine side - as a marine, it's always fun to taunt the aliens with a "3rd Fade for today" or the ever popular "knife >> Onos". Using GL spam correctly, ambushing with a shotgun, rushing the gorge etc... Distress beacon and 2-3 IP's ensures that you don't sit in the spawn queue for long, and even the trickle of res coming in from a single restower is enough for a welder or the occasional HMG/shotgun/GL. If you are sitting in a hive, you even have a remote chance of actually winning the game if you can hold out long enough.
A group of HA guys with HMG/GL that knows how to use a welder, against hive 1 aliens? There is just nothing you can do as alien against them. With just one hive,spawnrate means that if you die, you may have to wait 1-2 minutes before respawning. Just how much fun is that?
Bet you that if there were the equvalent of a distress beacon on the alien side, or the ability to build extra respawning chambers, there would be much less F4'ing. Paying personal res to respawn faster would be neat as well... anything to avoid just sitting in spawn queue watching the HA guys raping the few skulks still alive.
I LOVE LONG GAMES!!!
I played a game (1.0) were we came back from 0 hives and 1 player vs 8
I was the sole gorge, I had run of to start building a second hive and my team never bothered trying to stop them from attacking our first hive. My entire team left/switched to the other team. I built a hive (maint), heavily fortified it (tons of OCs and DC) and just held it untill I had a team agin, some one cleared out EC, I built there repeat untill we had 3 hives. (It was only about 1 min till I had the hive up b/c It was already building when the first went down)
As I said, long games are fun. However if one team is simply prolonging it (and 20 mins is not prolonging that is being a fn jack***).
As for ppl yelling at the stupid marines "COME KILL US ALREADY!", yah you have proably played a game with me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I will fight as long as I am in, I WILL NOT give an esay victory to ANYONE. I will take away your jerkoff time when you are playing with your fn toys if you don't try and further the game.
Think about it like a round of CS, if the CT don't loose a single player, and all but one T dies. The T then goes and stands in his spawn (he is out of ammo for all his weps) and the CTs decide to sky walk around and just goof off. That would suck.
Remember, I am here to have fun, thus why I don't like exploiters, cheaters, llamas, and those who refuse to end the game.
Hell, if thwey can't seem to end it I will TELL them how, I will sit there and direct them as to how they could very simply siege our last hive (or how to properly use a hvu welding death ball).
I don't like waiting 5 mins for while some idiots sit around and don't do anything.
- Marine upgrades take more time than Alien upgrades.
- Marines dont need as much resource nodes as aliens.
- Marines most time win the best way with slow defensive forward pushing, while aliens are more "rushers".
If marines play with time (and grenades) on their side and aliens were unable to kill any marine resource outposts, aliens made one of those things wrong:
- Not enough Alien Resources, or too much resources not used (chicken Fades that fear death too much).
- No lerks with carpace.
- No Fades going close combat.
- No gorge going frontline do heal, build and web in battle (and not just WOL ath the hives).
Point 1:
The marines 'basic 0 res' player remains viable throughout the game. If the commander is doing his job, the marines will have ammo/armor upgrades. So a marine fresh off the spawn portal can be effective against any level alien. (to what extent will vary, but in groups they can prevail)
The aliens 'basic 0 res' player becomes less and less viable thoughout the game. As the marine technology increases, the basic skulk becomes less of a fighter and more of a nuisance to the marine team. (in a one hive game) Even an upgrade like level 3 carapace is no match to an upgraded marine.
Point 2:
The marine game usually will not end until the command chair is killed. As such, the marines always have a fighting chance because even if they have NO hives they still have piles of res coming in from 1-2 nodes and can equip marines with heavy equipment. When the marine game is about to end, the marines can put up a good fight to the end, and once the command chair is gone it's game over.
The alien game will not end until the last hive is killed. However, what usually happens is that the marines lock down two hives and SLOWLY tech up, while the aliens try throwing their level 0 bodies at them. Even if a few aliens have the chance to go fade, it's only a matter of time before they are killed, (usually by a level 0 marine that cost 0 res but who had the ammo/armor upgrades) and with the alien res economy being as poor as it is, they will not be able to go fade again. So now the marines become stronger to the point where they cannot be overcome. HOWEVER, they usually don't finish the game then, and it can often take 30 minutes or more for the game to end.
Answer me this. Who wants to play a game that you KNOW you are going to lose?
The problem is that the aliens are NOT viable in the end game, while the marines are. Thus the aliens tend to F4 FAR more often in the games, even though on pub servers the aliens supposedly win more often.
Now, a 'BAN' for using F4 on "your server"? OK, you wannna play that way? Sure. So how about this? I take the alien team up to marine spawn and wipe out everything BUT a single IP, and then barricade the exits with OCs/DCs. Now they can spawn and have NO CHANCE to win. We could continue killing them for hours. Skulk rush one time, babble rush another, lerk spores another. Would you object to this? Would you ban the marines if they hit F4 to end it? You DID say NO EXCEPTIONS right? What would happen if YOU were on the other team, would you ban yourself? You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now would you?
I'm with the other people here. I'll NEVER play on servers that have that kind of policy, and I know most people won't once they hear of it either. If you want to play that way on your server, that's your business. If that means I get banned from your server, then I don't have a problem with that. Until the game is balanced you're going to be VERY busy with all the bans. Just remember you are in the minority.
F4 is part of the game. People should be able to resign. I'll tell you this, you need to have a LOT more guts to openly admit defeat and resign than to be a gun-ho yahoo and go out with guns blazing.
However as noted on other threads, the problem is not F4, the problem is that the game is not balanced. Marines get too strong too fast, and they reach a point where the aliens have NO chance of a comeback. Of all the games I have played, the marines NEVER used F4 because they were losing the game. (the only times I have seen Marines use F4 is when the comm pulls a noob move like dropping comm chairs at the beginning etc)
Why don't the marines do it? ...because the marines are NEVER in a no-win situation like the aliens. They have a strong economy and keep their upgrades even if the structures are destroyed. There is no penalty for the marines, they just have to turtle for a bit and come out with heavies blazing.
As alien, many people want to F4 since they KNOW the game is so unbalanced that they have no chance to win. Usually that means marines have 2 hives locked down with a dozen or more turrets each and they have heavies at both making sure we don't take them down. Or maybe they completed a cheap tech rush and have wiped out one hive and basically screwed the aliens for hive two.
At present, the game is the marine's to win. If they have a competent comm and skilled players, there is a very high chance they will win regardless of what the aliens do. The marine economy is extremely strong, and only a couple res nodes will net marines an inexhaustible supply of upgrades that they CANNOT LOSE. Once marines get an upgrade, they will NEVER lose it.
On the other hand, aliens have to scrimp and save for any upgrade chambers. Once they are destroyed, they LOSE those upgrades. The alien economy is weak, and as such if an alien saves up to go fade, and they get killed, then there is a obscene wait to go fade again. On the other hand, a marine can go HA/HMG, go out and die, and go HA/HMG right away.
Let's look at the facts. Marines get:
-THREE LEVELS of available INHERANT armor upgrades (that never go away)
-THREE LEVELS of available INHERANT ammo upgrades (that never go away)
-THREE ADDITIONAL types of weapons above and beyond their basic weapon
-ADDITIONAL HEAVY ARMOR which gains an ADDITIONAL inherent armor bonus
-AVAILABLE BUILT-IN 'WALL HACK' to detail all alien's locations continually
-PHASE GATES to traverse the map instantly and rush front lines
-DISTRESS BEACON to be able to clear out your spawn queue for a cheap price
-ABILITY to build multiple spawn portals to increase spawn rate
-Jetpacks, Welders etc
-Command chair has 10000hp
Alternately, Aliens get:
-Defence Chambers (one very useful skill that can be lost if chamber killed)
-Movement Chambers (one moderately useful skill that can be lost if chamber killed)
-Sensory Chambers (one slightly useful skill that can be lost if chamber killed)
-Ability to evolve to more powerful (2+ hive) aliens once or twice in game
(restricted by resource flow and built hives - once dead you usually cant evolve again for an extended period of time)
-Hive has 6000hp
Aliens don't get:
-the ability to use a 'distress beacon' so a full queue cannot be cleared
-the ability to see marine movements unless they physically see or parasite them
-the ability to use a chamber to 'rush' the front lines if desired
-any kind of upgrade that will increase AMMO damage against marines
-the ability to build spawn portals - must wait and build expensive hives
-much more etc...
Let's look a bit closer at spawn rates:
Skulks, especially those without carapace, are EASY to kill at the worst of times. Only lone marines have anything to fear from skulks. A group of attentive marines can make fast work of up to twice the number of skulks because they can fire at range.
This inherent advantage for marines leads marines to 'suicide rush' since they know with complete certainty that they will have their entire team fully respawned before the aliens will.
Let's do the math here: (Calculations assume teams of equal skill in an early one hive game)
You have a 13 on 13 game and both teams are trying to take/hold a particular area. You have 1 commander and 1 gorge, so 12 players on each team are 'active' on the playing field.
Although it wouldn't happen this way, let's look at a worst case scenario. The 24 players all rush the same area and there is a bloodbath. EVERYONE dies.
12 marines in spawn queue + 2 spawn portals + 10 second respawn rate = 60 seconds to respawn team
12 aliens in respawn queue + 1 active hive + 8 second respawn rate = 96 seconds to respawn team
That means that if both teams want to fight for that same location, the full 12 marines can now go back to that same spot and there will only be 7 aliens there to battle against them. That means marines have the manpower advantage, and they will most certainly prevail. From there it is downhill since the marines will ALWAYS have more men there and as such will be able to repel ANY assault. If the aliens wait to get to full strength, then they are greeted by a turret farm.
A difference in spawn rates causes a FUNDEMENTAL shift in balance any time a team loses more than one player at a time. As such, I feel it makes the game infinitely harder to balance.
Yeah, I think marines are stronger in the game.
So let's go back to the 'Q' word. I don't consider using F4 as quitting. I play chess and I have no problems resigning a game. Am I quitting? No. I am acknowledging to the other player that they have a superior position and that I have no reasonable expectation to win. As such, I consider it RESPECTFUL to resign when I feel the game is lost.
It's not about 'quitting' or 'giving up'. It's about being realistic and using common sense. If you know you are going to lose, then there is no shame in being honest about it. Why fight the inevitable, especially in an imbalanced situation?
The problem with this game is that a one hive alien team becomes less and less viable each minute that goes by since the marines keep getting stringer with their upgrades. Higher-level marine upgrades are meant to make marines competitive against fades; they make marines near impossible to kill as skulks.
So yeah, when the marines have level 3 upgrades and we only have one hive because we were out-spawned by the marines while fighting to take a second hive, then yeah, F4 makes a lot of sense.
The marines never F4 since they NEVER have the problem where they are not viable. When the marines are not viable and are vulnerable to be killed, the aliens move in and kill the base. Game over.
The aliens on the other hand often have to wait an hour while the marines sit with two hives locked down and slowly tech up at their leisure. No need to take a risk since they know if they wait they CANNOT LOSE.
Yeah, F4 looks better all the time.
If people want to stop alien teams from using F4, then they'll need to make one-hive aliens more viable in the later game.
I'm not a bot for someone to repeatedly use for target practice. If the game gets to the point where there is NO chance for my team to win, then why should I wait for 30 minutes or an hour for the other team to finish us off? Why should I be forced to play a game I know I won't win?
I won't.
I'm a human being and I refuse to allow myself to be intentionally and consciously degraded for someone else's pleasure. No 'ban' will change my mind.
Regards,
Savant
Please post the name(s) of servers that kick/ban people for pressing F4, so I can avoid them like the festering venerial disease that they are. For heaven's sake, people, don't be so foolish.
And forget the "it's our server - we'll do what we like" flames. Yes it's your server, but you will be very lonely if nobody comes to play because you have firmly shoved your head up your posterior.
Have a nice day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said
LMAO!!!
Really, I'm lucky I had my office door closed. Gees, gotta warn a guy next time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's not fun to be losing as aliens, but when your marine, you get to have much more action, because HMG's just shred newly spawned skulks
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