Ha... Where Has It Gone?
Mythr1l
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12772Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12772Members
<div class="IPBDescription">jetpack wh0res :p</div> where has all the HAHMG squads gone? every game of ns i play always comm gets JPHMG troops to go and fight fades, neglecting the HA research. Yes HA is more expencive than jetpacks, but think of it, how many times u get people asking for jp, rushing off and dieing then asking for another. With HA (as long as u have a team of good marines that will weld each other) they last longer.... and also HAHMG is a fades worst nightmare. other game we were locked in satcom, 1 res node and aliens had 2 hives and every res node on the map, every one of us had HAHMG tho, and we held them off for 1 hour 30 mins only to loose when we attacked fusion hive thru the vent and the aliens massed fades overcame our 3 HAHMG at base :/
but come on comms! if you want to win games HAHMG is the way to go. If your team has someone good enuf to JPHMG a hive then well done, but 99% of the time he kills hive, runs off back to base for ammo while aliens rebuilt hive.
but come on comms! if you want to win games HAHMG is the way to go. If your team has someone good enuf to JPHMG a hive then well done, but 99% of the time he kills hive, runs off back to base for ammo while aliens rebuilt hive.
Comments
If you know where those vents leads, you can easily attack to any hive from there.
Yes, but is is VERY easy to weld them, because you are in crouching position in vent. All you need is to keep your welder in your hand and fly trought that vent
Then our base was attacked by fades so I plonked down some HA and suddenly we turned the tides against the fades...... (We still lost there were too many of them and not enough res.....)
Theres no reason really why a Jet Packer can't live as long as a Heavy Armor guy.
If you have 3 guys outfitted with said gear and they are competent, they are darn near impossible to kill. Of course the expense of getting that is insane. Lets see....
Arms Lab: 45 (I think, i can never remember if its 45 or 50)
Proto Lab: 45
Research HA: 50
Armory Upgrade: 35
Plus then the cost for equipping the guys. Its very hard to get a squad out quickly enough to be effective. You're almost guarenteed to have fades by that time unless you've managed to take 2 hives of course. HA, being so slow can have problems fighting the fast moving fades, especially if the marines control multiple bases.
Then theres the problem of squad breakup after taking a hive. I've seen this almot every time. March on a hive, destroy it, get a phase up, and everyone scatters and dies individually among the various marine bases. Argh.
Anyways, the most fun place to go for the HMG/HA/Welder rush on (in my opinion of course) is the Cargo bay. Relocate there, take over the nodes, and just research until you march on vent. So much fun.
--Dep
P.S.- Always have the problem of rambo control too. And if you DON'T give the rambos HA/HMG, you gotta deal with them asking for it for a half hour afterwards.
<silence of the lambs> IT GOES TO THE WAYPOINT. </silence>
Most importantly, they have mobility. They can get in the vents, on the ceiling, or anywhere else.... and fast. Where it would take HA guys several minutes to get to a place, the JP guys can get there in seconds. In my games, mobility is key. Keep the marines attacking where the aliens don't expect them to be, and once they respond, withdraw and attack somewhere else. You can cripple the aliens income if you just fly between all the nodes. Additionally, JPers can often fly right past alien defenses to get to critical targets. HA guys have to bludgeon their way through. Not to mention JPs are cheaper...
Now, don't get me wrong, the HA/HMG combo can be devastating, especially with upgraded eq, but I simply prefer JP for midgame. (Later, when you are trying to take down a hive, HA can be nice....)
Pfhreak
PEOPLE DO NOT WELD HA!
Now I know some people do but alot don't. For some reason virtually all of non-HA players with welders don't weld HA, and most HA players don't either!
As soon as HA gots dropped its my priority to spam welders. Alot more people pick them up because they think its HA, but then they don't use them. Not to mention the number of people that run off with 60 res of gear.
People also fail to realise that with armour upgrades its useful to weld EVERYONE.
Although it also depends how I feel, if its close with good marines HA is what I choose. If were knackered I go for the fun of JP's.
THat is the reason why nobody hands out HA anymore (in pubs)
fortunately, it requires massive resources and individual player competancy, which is why it isn't often seen.
but who the hell doesn't love wearing a small tank as armor? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Almost everytime I comm, the reply to "HA/JP?" is "JP" "JP" "JP" "whatever" "JP" ... Well, you get the idea. From my experience, there is often at least one good JPer on 7vs7's who can rain death on Hives/WOLs with GL or HMG I hand to him.
Most marines seem to prefer to get more mobility rather than something even slower, although tougher.
There is going to be an increase in JP cost, in the next NS version, due to Flayra's market monopoly <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
mainly cuz':
1) I have the one brain cell it takes to weild
2) cuz' I suck with JP <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a marine player, I like HA assaults much more than being a rocket jock. I feel dirty and cheesy when I JP HMG a hive.
how often do u see a "squad" of JPers... never.. they all zoom their own way.. getting webbed and getting killed.. IMHO... HA is better if nything because it slows down the players into needing to stay together <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, I don't use JP's either, because JP's just get your team to run off like flaming monkeys and die. A couple HMG's, couple shotties, couple GL's is all you need.
-LordPerrin
Eh?
-LordPerrin
Actually, I don't use JP's either, because JP's just get your team to run off like flaming monkeys and die. A couple HMG's, couple shotties, couple GL's is all you need.
-LordPerrin <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A rambo HA marine is just a very expensive tin can of skulk food waiting to be opened and devoured. HAs are great in squads. Give two of them HMGs. Give one of then nades. Give the last one a shotty, or HMG as well. Give all of them welders. Make sure the shotty and hmg man are in front. HMG man deals out damage long range, shotty man at close range. The nade man welds his chums constantly, and he also picks off webs. If they encounter walls of lame, the hmg and shotty guys keep guard for incoming hostiles while nade man removes wall of lame. Repeat. As long as your marines are DILIGENT with their welders, they can survive all but massive fade attacks or onos stampedes. And webs! So make sure to weld the webs. Ive had a 3 man team humiliatingly defeated by a gorge and a skulk due to cunningly laid webs.
JP HMG tech rushing the aliens' hive before they can even spit out chambers to defend it let alone any class that can compete on fair terms with a JP HMG jockey = cheese. Why bother with THAT unless you're hell bent on winning?
LA LMG marines vs skulks and gorges = fun.
JP HMG marines vs skulks and gorges = SUCK
HA HMG mariens vs fades, lerks in umbra, gorges with webs, skulks with leap, walls o lame everywhere = fun!
HA HMG marines with 2 hives locked down vs lerks without umbra, skulks wtihout leap = SUCK
Onos gets into play so rare that I haven't got an opinion of them, really.
When i say it is expensive, i'm not just talking about the cost of research and HA suits. HAs are only ever effective in a large group, a couple of HAs are going to die even against 1 hive aliens. They also take forever to accomplish anything, because of this, you are going to be constantly spending resources on them, as an upkeep cost after the initial purchase. Health packs yes, but you'll spend even more on ammo. It takes so long to progress forward that an alien team has time to respawn and hit you over and over again. To perform a proper, effective HA push you'll need 5 HAs or more, with weapons and welders, and you'll need to drop minibases as you move through the map. Forward armories, possibly phase gates or sieges in key points as you move through the map a few steps at a time, eventually ending with you setting up outside a hive and usually sieging it. This sort of slow, defensive push is very, very hard to stop. It also needs an ungodly amout of resources.
Trying to dish out a few HAs to boost your general play does not work, they'll die and will be very innefficient res wise. Because you cannot make a good HA push untill you have saved a huge amount of res, it is not a practical strategy in comparison to the JP rush.
JP HMG marines vs skulks and gorges = SUCK
HA HMG mariens vs fades, lerks in umbra, gorges with webs, skulks with leap, walls o lame everywhere = fun!
HA HMG marines with 2 hives locked down vs lerks without umbra, skulks wtihout leap = SUCK <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*cough*
Beating a marine team with minimal effort because they refused to play the game seriously and considered any strategy that might have been effective, or might have turned the game into a real battle instead of a brainless alien walkover as "cheese" = SUCK.
Perhaps you comm differently than I. I do not play the turtling up in a hive game when I comm. I send my marines out to cap ressources and patrol the nozzles. I buy them motion Tee to last longer. Two marines can sometimes cover 3 nozzles for 10 minutes - thats great for income. All this res and no bothering wasting time on locking down hive means that by the time I am ready to equip a squad of HA marines, the first fades start to appear. But boy, do they get a surprise. Since I've played after keeping ressources, aliens havent got so many as they would have in a typical "lets lock down hives" game. So my lads proceed to whack one hive, and the aliens scramble to put up a new one in another spot.
I see a pattern there. If you manage to ressource hog, you get HA into play and can count on meeting fades and gorges. Ressource hogging can be a hard strategy to pull off and it desperately needs motion tracking to make your marines last long enough in the field for their patrolling to pay off ressource wise.
Many maps are ideal for the "patrolling" approach to having ressources. Two nozzles are within 30 seconds of walking distance of each other, too long to TF up, short enough for your marines to make it in time to fend off voracious skulks. If you tried to play for JP HMG rush, sure, ha is much much slower and the res hogging pays off even quicker. But it is much funner in my opinion to have your huge powered armour guys fighting the kharaa toe-to-toe than some jackass JP HMG flittering about like a buttefly and knocking down a defensless hive within 10 minutes of the game starting.
Most people can't resist the temptation, I can.
I have no problem with putting a weak alien team out of its misery quickly. Artificially lengthening the game by "giving the aliens a chance" when they are the weaker side and should already be dead doesn't suit me. If we were capable of finishing the game in 10 minutes, then we won, the aliens lost, and they need to know this. They need to be shown the weakness in their play so they can improve. Otherwise players get slack, and strategies become weak.
"Fun" is playing an alien side who properly counters your play when you are genuinely trying to win the game, leading to a real fight. Not letting the game carry on and pretending you haven't won already. If you don't JP rush, people aren't going to learn to counter the JP rush, and no one will ever progress.
heh.
Your logic is applied to any strategy that is currently the most effective. There have always, and will always be ways of playing that are more likely to win than others. It doesn't matter what changes in 1.1, there are still going to be effective strategies and ineffective strategies, and i'm still going to be using whatever is the most effective way of beating an alien team at the time, and you're still going to be calling it cheese.
The reason there is such little variety in NS strategies is nothing to do with the jetpack, its much more fundemental than that. NS has no solid counter system. The long term strategy of 1 team has little effect on the long term strategy of the other team, and as long as this remains true, there will always be a 'most effective' marine strategy given the inital values of map and starting hive. It doesn't matter how jetpacks are nerfed, something else will take their place untill the whole game system is overhauled. A massive rethink of how tech and upgrades work may change things somewhat, powerful strategies being less obvious, or a small selection of powerful strategies emerging that effectively counter eachother leading to a more varied game. Still, few games manage this particularly well. Warcraft 3 for all its complexities can now be boiled down to a few powerful strats for each race, and the skill is mainly in the execution.
Get over the idea of anything effective being "cheese", and look at how the game works. As it stands, there are a limited number of strategies that are truely effective. The skill in playing NS at a high level is not the ability to formulate a game-wide strategy, it's in how you execute a strategy that is already well known. Its in the little details that an organised team works out between itself, the skill of the players, experience in how to react to a certain situation. Not wether you choose defence or sensory first, or wether to JP rush or tower up hives, because this level of strategy is pretty much fixed.
heh.
Your logic is applied to any strategy that is currently the most effective. There have always, and will always be ways of playing that are more likely to win than others. It doesn't matter what changes in 1.1, there are still going to be effective strategies and ineffective strategies, and i'm still going to be using whatever is the most effective way of beating an alien team at the time, and you're still going to be calling it cheese.
The reason there is such little variety in NS strategies is nothing to do with the jetpack, its much more fundemental than that. NS has no solid counter system. The long term strategy of 1 team has little effect on the long term strategy of the other team, and as long as this remains true, there will always be a 'most effective' marine strategy given the inital values of map and starting hive. It doesn't matter how jetpacks are nerfed, something else will take their place untill the whole game system is overhauled. A massive rethink of how tech and upgrades work may change things somewhat, powerful strategies being less obvious, or a small selection of powerful strategies emerging that effectively counter eachother leading to a more varied game. Still, few games manage this particularly well. Warcraft 3 for all its complexities can now be boiled down to a few powerful strats for each race, and the skill is mainly in the execution.
Get over the idea of anything effective being "cheese", and look at how the game works. As it stands, there are a limited number of strategies that are truely effective. The skill in playing NS at a high level is not the ability to formulate a game-wide strategy, it's in how you execute a strategy that is already well known. Its in the little details that an organised team works out between itself, the skill of the players, experience in how to react to a certain situation. Not wether you choose defence or sensory first, or wether to JP rush or tower up hives, because this level of strategy is pretty much fixed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep..TEOH is correct. There needs to be an effective counter system in order for this game to be more interested, with more varied tactics. I never played 1.02, but it was probably "Seige, seige, seige." 1.03 was "2 hive lockdown with PG, turrets." and now it's "JP/HMG rush before they get second hive!" There were no counters to any of these strategies, ther was only hope that you can "destroy their phase gates fast enough" or "keep them from getting res" or well you get the idea. I wish there was a way to get past the hard-coded weapon limits in NS. More weapons might be able to bring more counters...