Grenade Laucher Usage
PvtLohne
Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13402Members
Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13402Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How to make it worth the Rez</div> Everyone raise your hands that have played NS since it's inception. *hmm*. I see alot of hands out there. Remering back, it's amazing how in just a few short months, the strategy of most commanders has gone from a chaotic but fun experimentational soup, to the insanly iron clad repeated rules and sterotypes of today. Such is the case with the grenade launcher, and sadly, I've found it isn't changing for the better.
I'm neither as "l33t" at playing this game nor as equal editorialy to more of the advenced members of this forum, but I have to put in my two cents regarding the use, abuse, and ignorance surrounding the "GL", which frankly, has a worse rap than the shotgun. At least there's a CULT following to that baby. The GL just takes up a spot on the Commander Menu in roughly 75 percent of all games I play on. What we need is perspective. To get that, it's important to understand, much like the excellent sticky post above regarding Shot Guns, why and how the GL got it's current less than stellar sterotype.
Now back when NS was just a baby mp game, unkown to us that it would soon evolve into a thing that took away our nights and weekends, these things got handed out like they were going out of style and the Commanders were issued coupons. Before the power and range of the Seige was truly understood, all most of us knew was "It took a whole lot of ammo to take down /a/ structure" much less the ever popular even then "Tower-wall" tactic. Early experiments proved it excellent at taking down buildings, but users had an abnormally high rate of casuality turn over, and when this was after you've handed the games single most expinsive peice of personal TSA hardware TO the said grunts that were turning up daisys on the front line, I guess it was just tough on early commanders to justify to themselves giving someone another one, when an HMG would do an avreage job at it, and still tackle the Kaarha that seemed to eat GLers alive. The reasons, in retrospect, were obvius.
1) I didn't know the breed at the time, but the early gestation of "Com, HA/HMG at base" people was happening even then. Those were the people that, while not in the Lamer catagory, were still trying to play it just like CS, and grabbed any weapon they saw, WHEN they saw it. Why? Those of us /with/ a pair were off checking out this brand new game, getting used to taking "Orders" from a human commander.(And starting to gain a bit of empathy with our starcraft counter parts). So, problem 1? You just handed 26 Rez worth of gun to the type of guy that isn't going to listen to you, isn't going to the front line, will leap into a wall of O Towers like it's the Great Escape II just for a laugh, is going to dump the clip at the first Skulk he sees, and will in fact, make it look worthless.
2) It was a very diffrent weapon than most of us were used to. I dunno about you, but unless the thing rips a hole in space time, is attached to the bottom of a machine gun, or is simply even MORE desctructive than the GL is, I'm just not used to having a weapon with a 4 shot clip(something I'lll touch on later), or, for that matter, grenades with a /4/ second timer. I coudln't belive it when i first read the manual. I thought it was around SIX seconds, but that's just combat for you. THe explosion radius also far outpaced it's actuel explosion graphic. Brought up in a world of games that said "If you arn't IN the explosion, you're fine" most of us, upon seeing the size of it's graphic, got to within, oh, way to damn close of it, and wonderd why after JUST talking the com into one, we killed ourselves with it, first clip.
3) At the time, the HMG was simply the sexier machine. Tell the truth. As much as we may talk about how dumb a guy sounds that begs for the old "HA/HMG", you /have/ to admit, the first time that thing popped into your hands and you'd not seen it before, you were dumb founded with it's insane amount of firepower. Heck, we went /games/ before we saw the HMG, right? You'd gotten used to a nearly CS balance of ability to kill vs kill rates, and this thing set that on it's head, in damage, in clip size, and in sheer unadalteraded fun. That unique, The-Kaarha-have-done-something-wrong-and-will-now-be-punished-for-it-by-Marine-hardware-at-it's-finest sound STILL sends Skulks, Lerks, and Gorges running. It's simply flashier.
4) Finally, cost. During a time when most games were "won" through sheer luck, most commanders were hoarders, through sheer lack of knowledge in how to spend correctly, fitting /any/ strategy. Asking your com for the most expensive weapon was placed in the same catagoriy as asking for a pony. Only the com would have given the pony.
Well. Times have changed, skills have improved, tactics have evolved.....and /stagnated/. It's time for /my/ baby to break back out into the front lines of the TSA defense. First, the bad points, many as the Shot Gun
1)Underestimated
2)Misused
3)Expensive
4)Comes into most conflicts too late to make a diffrence either way thanks to standard production doctorine
5)Requested by only two types of people. and one type has absolutly no idea what to do with it
But. The Good.
1)Underestimated
2)For it's worth, slightly under priced, though it could use a kick down in cost
3)Has, when fully loaded and ammoed up, the damage capacity to destroy a hive /single handidly/ in just at 14 seconds
4)Reloads fastest of all TSA weapon systems
5)With practice, that 200 damage per shot can be laid to waste on the larger aliens, doubling it's use
6)It's a mobile siege system, and more important, it's a thinking one, armed with a back up pistol to fight off CQ threats
7)Requested by only two types of people, and one type has every idea how to use it. For some reason, often ignored, due to superfical similarities to above type
The following is rather simplistic, and I apologize. Any and everyone is /begged/ to add their two cents in tactics and usage to supplment mine.
TACTIS AND USAGE
Lets start with the most Important
GOLDEN RULE
NEVER GO IT ALONE
Ever. Unless you can look in the mirror, tell the person you see they are the greatest NS player in their given Hemisphere, and NOT be lying to your face? Don't even consider it, as fun as it is. Not at least until we can give it it's rep back. This falls back onto everything anyone that's mildly sucsessful at this game has allready earned, but it bears SPECIAL repeating in the case of a weapon that, without very specialized use, basicly makes it's user the proud owner of a 26 rez death sentence from anything that moves. I'm not talking Ye Old Buddy system here either. Unless you have pressing issues, wait at the spawn for at /least/ 3 other marines, or, if in a tiny game, a signifigint portion of your team. That fine nanite-plastic coated device in your TSA hands holds within it's 4 shot clip exactly 800 points of inflictable damage, and that's just to what you actuelly hit. You are also the proud owner of the TSA's fastet reloading hand held weapon, a fact that to this day still boggles my mind. With a full clip, full ammo belt, and a bit of aiming, one marine suddenly becomes capable of laying down the unholy amount of 6000 damage points over whichever structures, and possibly, aliens, he feels deserve to feel his divine hand. Why bother telling you all this? Becuase those 5 lines of priase right up there turn into one line of BS if you walk your RETARDED *** out there alone=27 rez, you, ploop ploop Death. Stay with your buddies. This brings me to my second point, as you might be wondering why waste rez on a device you have to protect just to get use out of it. Good question. First, I would say, "When was the last time you didn't turret up phase gate?" Secondly, I'd say-
USE THE GL STRATIGICLY, NOT TACTICLY
For those that need a refresher course, Tactictal combat is You vs The Thing with Teath. Strategic Combat is Should I give Him Health...Or Save for a Phase Gate. This might be the single biggest key to proper GL usage. Allways have a mission plan. You can drop any other weapon and simply film the Marine version of "TSA Gone Wild", but when it comes to the GL, unless you know the person you're giving it too, there's a fairly high chance it won't see use in any way, shape, form, or fashion that you intented it to. Have a mission. D wall healing Fades? O towers lined up in front of a Hive entrance? Hive clear and phase up but the actuel hive is still there, and rez is tight? THat's when you send in the Grenade Laucnher, and his (minimum of a)3 man protection Cadre. Proceed post haste to the mission zone, and fufill said mission objectives to the best of your ability.
DO NOT TAKE IT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO USE IT, MARINE
Not only does this go with...EVERY...peice of equipment and in fact task in the game, it's doubly worth mentioning here, becuase of the amount of Nanites you've just wasted if it was put in your hands and your first idea is to try and figure out which end the funny round things come out of. If I get a weapon I don't want or know I'm bad with, I chuck it in front of the others, and tell them as much. Communciaton with the com will keep that from happening by accident, but other wise, don't take a skilled Naders tool away from him. It might be the last time that Commander ever issues the "Expensive Idiot Magnent".
IN REALTION TO KNOWING HOW TO USE IT....PRACTICE
I'm not as ardent over this one as I would be if I could actuelly muster the intelligence required to use Cheesrs bots, and since NO ONE else is reporting trouble, it means i"ve had a case of the retards agian. Assuming you havn't, practice. Sv_Cheats 1 is your friend. Givepoints, and go to town. Practice with the reloading time. Practice with the Parabolics, and the timer. Practice aiming for the base of alien structures. Set up some dummy marines and practice getting the rounds around or over them, becuase unless you're in the front, a spot you don't want to be with a weapon that clears a beaten path of destruction 120 feet wide, but only after 4 seconds with, you WILL be trying to get these around and over your buddies. Set up REAL dumb aliens, and practice the ultimate Nader art, hitting the players themselves! If you become capable of striking aliens with 200 damage per grenades, suddenly the Onos diminishes dramaticly in threat value. Of course, it'd take weeks for that fact to mean anything, since the Onos is, contrary to popular belief, 80 percent a Psychological tool at this point, but I better not get started on that. Do you KNOW How many /upgraded/ Skulks it takes to soak up 200 damage points? 3? 4? /5/? How many weapons do you know hold what is (roughly) equivlant to..say..16 dead skulks in one clip? 2 hits, and a /Fade/ is dead. An upgraded Onos takes a "mere" full clip to destroy, though putting those four grenades in the air, much less on target, of a beast that, when a charge is combined with celerity is faster than a skulk would be a bit of a challenge, but if your being SUPPORTED*wink wink*, then you might not be his only target. How many games would be winnable from a 3 hive defecit if each team had one GL user that was a gaurnted Onos-death-per-clip?
I welcome all feedback, and would add more, but it's 4 am. Hope this helps one soldier out there, and hope this convinces one Com to give that solider his chance.
Once Pvt
Once Pfc
Now Cpl | Lohne
.......transmission end
I'm neither as "l33t" at playing this game nor as equal editorialy to more of the advenced members of this forum, but I have to put in my two cents regarding the use, abuse, and ignorance surrounding the "GL", which frankly, has a worse rap than the shotgun. At least there's a CULT following to that baby. The GL just takes up a spot on the Commander Menu in roughly 75 percent of all games I play on. What we need is perspective. To get that, it's important to understand, much like the excellent sticky post above regarding Shot Guns, why and how the GL got it's current less than stellar sterotype.
Now back when NS was just a baby mp game, unkown to us that it would soon evolve into a thing that took away our nights and weekends, these things got handed out like they were going out of style and the Commanders were issued coupons. Before the power and range of the Seige was truly understood, all most of us knew was "It took a whole lot of ammo to take down /a/ structure" much less the ever popular even then "Tower-wall" tactic. Early experiments proved it excellent at taking down buildings, but users had an abnormally high rate of casuality turn over, and when this was after you've handed the games single most expinsive peice of personal TSA hardware TO the said grunts that were turning up daisys on the front line, I guess it was just tough on early commanders to justify to themselves giving someone another one, when an HMG would do an avreage job at it, and still tackle the Kaarha that seemed to eat GLers alive. The reasons, in retrospect, were obvius.
1) I didn't know the breed at the time, but the early gestation of "Com, HA/HMG at base" people was happening even then. Those were the people that, while not in the Lamer catagory, were still trying to play it just like CS, and grabbed any weapon they saw, WHEN they saw it. Why? Those of us /with/ a pair were off checking out this brand new game, getting used to taking "Orders" from a human commander.(And starting to gain a bit of empathy with our starcraft counter parts). So, problem 1? You just handed 26 Rez worth of gun to the type of guy that isn't going to listen to you, isn't going to the front line, will leap into a wall of O Towers like it's the Great Escape II just for a laugh, is going to dump the clip at the first Skulk he sees, and will in fact, make it look worthless.
2) It was a very diffrent weapon than most of us were used to. I dunno about you, but unless the thing rips a hole in space time, is attached to the bottom of a machine gun, or is simply even MORE desctructive than the GL is, I'm just not used to having a weapon with a 4 shot clip(something I'lll touch on later), or, for that matter, grenades with a /4/ second timer. I coudln't belive it when i first read the manual. I thought it was around SIX seconds, but that's just combat for you. THe explosion radius also far outpaced it's actuel explosion graphic. Brought up in a world of games that said "If you arn't IN the explosion, you're fine" most of us, upon seeing the size of it's graphic, got to within, oh, way to damn close of it, and wonderd why after JUST talking the com into one, we killed ourselves with it, first clip.
3) At the time, the HMG was simply the sexier machine. Tell the truth. As much as we may talk about how dumb a guy sounds that begs for the old "HA/HMG", you /have/ to admit, the first time that thing popped into your hands and you'd not seen it before, you were dumb founded with it's insane amount of firepower. Heck, we went /games/ before we saw the HMG, right? You'd gotten used to a nearly CS balance of ability to kill vs kill rates, and this thing set that on it's head, in damage, in clip size, and in sheer unadalteraded fun. That unique, The-Kaarha-have-done-something-wrong-and-will-now-be-punished-for-it-by-Marine-hardware-at-it's-finest sound STILL sends Skulks, Lerks, and Gorges running. It's simply flashier.
4) Finally, cost. During a time when most games were "won" through sheer luck, most commanders were hoarders, through sheer lack of knowledge in how to spend correctly, fitting /any/ strategy. Asking your com for the most expensive weapon was placed in the same catagoriy as asking for a pony. Only the com would have given the pony.
Well. Times have changed, skills have improved, tactics have evolved.....and /stagnated/. It's time for /my/ baby to break back out into the front lines of the TSA defense. First, the bad points, many as the Shot Gun
1)Underestimated
2)Misused
3)Expensive
4)Comes into most conflicts too late to make a diffrence either way thanks to standard production doctorine
5)Requested by only two types of people. and one type has absolutly no idea what to do with it
But. The Good.
1)Underestimated
2)For it's worth, slightly under priced, though it could use a kick down in cost
3)Has, when fully loaded and ammoed up, the damage capacity to destroy a hive /single handidly/ in just at 14 seconds
4)Reloads fastest of all TSA weapon systems
5)With practice, that 200 damage per shot can be laid to waste on the larger aliens, doubling it's use
6)It's a mobile siege system, and more important, it's a thinking one, armed with a back up pistol to fight off CQ threats
7)Requested by only two types of people, and one type has every idea how to use it. For some reason, often ignored, due to superfical similarities to above type
The following is rather simplistic, and I apologize. Any and everyone is /begged/ to add their two cents in tactics and usage to supplment mine.
TACTIS AND USAGE
Lets start with the most Important
GOLDEN RULE
NEVER GO IT ALONE
Ever. Unless you can look in the mirror, tell the person you see they are the greatest NS player in their given Hemisphere, and NOT be lying to your face? Don't even consider it, as fun as it is. Not at least until we can give it it's rep back. This falls back onto everything anyone that's mildly sucsessful at this game has allready earned, but it bears SPECIAL repeating in the case of a weapon that, without very specialized use, basicly makes it's user the proud owner of a 26 rez death sentence from anything that moves. I'm not talking Ye Old Buddy system here either. Unless you have pressing issues, wait at the spawn for at /least/ 3 other marines, or, if in a tiny game, a signifigint portion of your team. That fine nanite-plastic coated device in your TSA hands holds within it's 4 shot clip exactly 800 points of inflictable damage, and that's just to what you actuelly hit. You are also the proud owner of the TSA's fastet reloading hand held weapon, a fact that to this day still boggles my mind. With a full clip, full ammo belt, and a bit of aiming, one marine suddenly becomes capable of laying down the unholy amount of 6000 damage points over whichever structures, and possibly, aliens, he feels deserve to feel his divine hand. Why bother telling you all this? Becuase those 5 lines of priase right up there turn into one line of BS if you walk your RETARDED *** out there alone=27 rez, you, ploop ploop Death. Stay with your buddies. This brings me to my second point, as you might be wondering why waste rez on a device you have to protect just to get use out of it. Good question. First, I would say, "When was the last time you didn't turret up phase gate?" Secondly, I'd say-
USE THE GL STRATIGICLY, NOT TACTICLY
For those that need a refresher course, Tactictal combat is You vs The Thing with Teath. Strategic Combat is Should I give Him Health...Or Save for a Phase Gate. This might be the single biggest key to proper GL usage. Allways have a mission plan. You can drop any other weapon and simply film the Marine version of "TSA Gone Wild", but when it comes to the GL, unless you know the person you're giving it too, there's a fairly high chance it won't see use in any way, shape, form, or fashion that you intented it to. Have a mission. D wall healing Fades? O towers lined up in front of a Hive entrance? Hive clear and phase up but the actuel hive is still there, and rez is tight? THat's when you send in the Grenade Laucnher, and his (minimum of a)3 man protection Cadre. Proceed post haste to the mission zone, and fufill said mission objectives to the best of your ability.
DO NOT TAKE IT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO USE IT, MARINE
Not only does this go with...EVERY...peice of equipment and in fact task in the game, it's doubly worth mentioning here, becuase of the amount of Nanites you've just wasted if it was put in your hands and your first idea is to try and figure out which end the funny round things come out of. If I get a weapon I don't want or know I'm bad with, I chuck it in front of the others, and tell them as much. Communciaton with the com will keep that from happening by accident, but other wise, don't take a skilled Naders tool away from him. It might be the last time that Commander ever issues the "Expensive Idiot Magnent".
IN REALTION TO KNOWING HOW TO USE IT....PRACTICE
I'm not as ardent over this one as I would be if I could actuelly muster the intelligence required to use Cheesrs bots, and since NO ONE else is reporting trouble, it means i"ve had a case of the retards agian. Assuming you havn't, practice. Sv_Cheats 1 is your friend. Givepoints, and go to town. Practice with the reloading time. Practice with the Parabolics, and the timer. Practice aiming for the base of alien structures. Set up some dummy marines and practice getting the rounds around or over them, becuase unless you're in the front, a spot you don't want to be with a weapon that clears a beaten path of destruction 120 feet wide, but only after 4 seconds with, you WILL be trying to get these around and over your buddies. Set up REAL dumb aliens, and practice the ultimate Nader art, hitting the players themselves! If you become capable of striking aliens with 200 damage per grenades, suddenly the Onos diminishes dramaticly in threat value. Of course, it'd take weeks for that fact to mean anything, since the Onos is, contrary to popular belief, 80 percent a Psychological tool at this point, but I better not get started on that. Do you KNOW How many /upgraded/ Skulks it takes to soak up 200 damage points? 3? 4? /5/? How many weapons do you know hold what is (roughly) equivlant to..say..16 dead skulks in one clip? 2 hits, and a /Fade/ is dead. An upgraded Onos takes a "mere" full clip to destroy, though putting those four grenades in the air, much less on target, of a beast that, when a charge is combined with celerity is faster than a skulk would be a bit of a challenge, but if your being SUPPORTED*wink wink*, then you might not be his only target. How many games would be winnable from a 3 hive defecit if each team had one GL user that was a gaurnted Onos-death-per-clip?
I welcome all feedback, and would add more, but it's 4 am. Hope this helps one soldier out there, and hope this convinces one Com to give that solider his chance.
Once Pvt
Once Pfc
Now Cpl | Lohne
.......transmission end
Comments
Why was it cut from 6 shots per clip to 4? The overall difference dosn't seem to make sense. 2 more grenades weren't going to end any 3 hive slaughter of the marines, that's for certian. I didn't even notice until i got Sv cheats working, which when active, extends the clip to 6! Not only that, the ammo belt itself is a multiple of 6, 30. Why bother cutting 2 shells out of the magizine and then not even altering the ammo load to ensure you get a square number each time? For that matter...why can't we see the last full clip loaded into an HMG? Ah well. Wrong Forum. My GL question stands, though.
I would personally love to see the GL more powerful and back into the nuker stage it used to be held in <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lohne I believe the dmg was lowered from 200 after 1.0 which is why comm's stopped throwing them out, and now it is back up to 200, comm's should be handing them out but aren't.....
Someone should make a Grenade Range map, to help ppl train their grenade skills....
This is a call to any and all who think they can do it. We need TRAINING MAPS, true honest to god Trianing take you by the hand levels, for each weapon, and in fact each aspect of Natural Selection. Posts like this only prove that point. What other game takes in game experince and Word Pad to best describe how to use a Gl? Please guys, we need trainer levels.
Ns dosn't have a learning curve. It's a nanite-brick wall.
Thanks for the props, man.
I have had ha and a guy to weld me + a armoury for fast reloading and have held back onos and fades for a long time indeed at a mb. Also if im fighting inexperienced players I often requesta gren instead of an hmg for skulk/gorg/fade hunting because if needs be i can allways pul out my pistol which with full upgrades is on bad mofo you dont want to mess with...
And Big Game Hunter, unless they've had the damage cut to around 3 points per grenade, how can you say something as broad as "It's incapable of destroying a hive single handidly"? I once did that very same thing with a /wielder/ quite by accident, but the fact remains you can down a hive with MINES if you place them right. I'm only saying, given a sharp stick or a Pnuematicly(sp?) Launched Bacteria Detecting High Explosive TSA Special, I'd have to choose B, regardless of an apperant cut in damage, that's all.
It is absolutely crucial to winning any HA vs fade fight, as otherwise you have no counter to lerks.
As far as I am aware, in 1.04, the damage is back to 100, with double versus structures.
My only real complaint is the nasty 1.04 bug where you have to reload TWICE when you reach 0 ammo to get a full clip back. That takes a LOT of time, on top of the time it takes to fill up to 4/30.
It's /33/? God allmighty...compared to 23 for an HMG, then every thing I said is...HELLA true and important then. 33 is just way to high...but then agian I may be biased, seeing as I think the Shot Gun ought to honestly be like 12 or 14. I guess 16 is as close as I can hope for. ALL the weapons need to be knocked down that percent, really..but..
33.
Jezz.
90
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the Onos is, contrary to popular belief, 80 percent a Psychological tool<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Primal scream is alot more than a psychological tool
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you KNOW How many /upgraded/ Skulks it takes to soak up 200 damage points?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
90 damage points, and you need more than one direct grenade to kill a cara skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2 hits, and a /Fade/ is dead<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually i believe its 7 hits.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An upgraded Onos takes a "mere" full clip to destroy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upgraded Onos has the equivalent of over 1000 health when you account for carapace properly, it wouldn't go down in 1 clip even if they did do 200 damage.
Having said that, the GL is still very important in a HA/HMG squad. Without the GL as a mobile siege/umbra counter/corner harassment counter a HA team is very vulnerable to a smart 2 hive alien team. The GL supports the HMG/HA/Welder group by compensating for its inability to charge anything, although in execution it is little more than a spam weapon.
Fun trick: Grenades take on the current velocity of the marine in addition to their launch velocity, if you grab a JP and a GL you can fly forwards at a high speed, launch a grenade then land, and watch the grenade shoot forwards with the speed and trajectory of a rocket launcher. Just make sure you don't have too much vertical motion when you release.
How could I have forgotten that. I think it has something to do with that fact that umbra is usually done right outisde base as cover for Fades, Fades right outisde base usually means end of the round, and that whole set of 10 minutes is allways wiped from my brains Cache right after I get done with the round.
90 damage. From 200. Someone shoot me. Better yet. Someone make a mod that fixes that...cause....90. That's...well that's effectivly neutiring the thing. You've taken 6000 possible damage points and turned it into....3600. Ah well.
On to a response to TeoH
1) My bad, adressed above
2, 5)True. True. Now take that 86 rez fully upgraded Onos, get 6 of your friends on the marine side, walk yourself in front of just unupgraded LMGs...and sit there. I think you'll find it's amazing how fast that 8 minutes of staying in a corner to save that much rez up can be laid out over the deck when marines stop treating the Onos as a walking sign that says "Jesus has forsaken you, and also thinks it's time to start a new round", and start treating it like a Fade:Something that requires concentrated assualt to finish off, but is not "Your Death Incarnate".
3)Mathmaticly, yes, that would seem to be true, but I know from personl experince that one nade will kill a skulk dead on at any point during a game, IE, no matter the hives or Upgrades. Maybe I'm insane, maybe that was way back in the "It actuelly does what the manual says it does" day, but I know I've done that multiple times. Who knows.
4)Related to 1, and I repeat, for the love of all that is holy, shoot me or fix that, cuase...Wow.
While everything else was based on facts, and I will in fact have to try that little 900 knot Grenade trick, I have to flatly dissagree with your take on the Grenade Launcher. a (now, apperntly) /33/ rez Spam Weapon? I've got to much nanites, here, take the most expinsive thing I can give you and just "Toss a few around the corner?" That goes directly aginst my whole "Have a point when you get it, and even better, have a point when you BUY it" thing. I dunno man. I say it's more useful...even if it...IS....weaker...
In any case, the GL still kicks arse. Good post.
[EDIT] Good God, I <i>wasn't</i> hallucinating.
- Increased grenade launcher damage back to 200 (back to v1.0 value)
...fresh from the NS v1.04 changelog. [/EDIT]
I meant with 34 rounds, which is what you implied when you said "ammo'd up." Of course ANY weapon is capable of taking down a hive single handidly with enough ammo spam. But a lev 0 gren launcher will do only do 3060 damage to a 6000 hp hive, and a lev 3 will do 3978.
These numbers are all according to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=21812&hl=' target='_blank'>this.</a>
Edcrab, you feel me on the GL pain? Thanks for the praise.
I'll just take it from the change log then. If it <i>is</i> 200 a shot, we're talking 6800 damage from a 4/30 clip set. Kitsune maintained it was still 90... and I'm in no position to check it right now. Oi, where's the omnipotent dev team/aware players when you need them?
If it's only 90, then there sure are a lot of "cheating" GL players about when I've been Fade...
- Increased grenade launcher damage back to 200 (back to v1.0 value)
...fresh from the NS v1.04 changelog. [/EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that, as mentioned in the stats thread, and in several other places, they actually <b>didn't</b> increase it back up to 200.
"Grenade damage is still 90, I lobbed one at my roomie just for fun while we were checking out 1.04's cloak, and his Gorge took 90 points from the hit."
Hmmph. Wonder what else wasn't actually implemented from the changelog...
*Toast* *GL barrels are tapped together*
My impression is that that is just an update bug. If you keep on loading while the reload sequense the amount in the clip will still say 0 while the numbers in ther reserve is climbing. If you tehn stop loading there is an automatic transfer from the reserve to the clip. So dont press reload just have a bit of patience.
this is what you will see for the pistol
x/y x=amount in clip y=amount in reserve
0/0, starting loading
0/5, automatic reload sequense, still loading
0/10, amount in clip constant=0
...
0/30, stoped humping the armory
after one or two seconds wait
10/20, clip is now full and the amount in the reserve is lowered.
I dont know if this means that you can make the load for the pistol 0/40 untill the game catches up with that you allready has reloaded or if you have to hump the armory twice more to get the full loadout
Unupgraded GL (90) vs...
Skulk 1/2/2/3
Lerk 1/2/2/3
Gorge 2/3/3/4
Fade 4/5/6/8
Onos 8/11/14/20
Fully Upgraded GL (117) vs...
Skulk 1/1/2/2
Lerk 1/1/2/2
Gorge 2/2/3/4
Fade 3/4/5/7
Onos 7/8/11/15
You'll notice that the GL now benefits from weapon upgrades, which i don't think it used to. People complaining about dying quickly to GL as fade... You're using carapace right?
GL is a great weapon, but it's damn expensive. That's the first blow against using it.
GL is a teamwork weapon. Until you have autoaim skills with the GL, you will <b>not</b> be able to go toe to toe with an alien and win without burning yourself. Pubs do not have much teamwork, and that is why the GL isn't handed out. Blow 2.
GL requires skill to use. Tactical skill. HMG can be given to any fool, and so long as he points at the continent the enemy is standing on and holds the fire button, the spread will take care of the rest. Blow 3.
GL is upper level tech, requires a lot of resources, long time to load up on ammo, and is rarely used. I think there is <b>no</b> reason why it shouldn't have its damage brought back to 200, especially since that was listed in the changelog.
That said, GL makes an excellent tactical weapon, provided you know how to work as a team. When facing enemy defenses, lob grenades into towers to annihilate them. Drop them in front of towers to clear webs (YES, GL CLEARS WEBS). Lob them over the towers to soften/kill the Kharaa that will soon be arriving.
When your team engages lots of skulks or other small enemies, fire a few grenades at your teammates' feet. If the skulk moves, he can't get the kill. If he stays put, he dies. Win-Win.
When your team engages fades/heavier stuff, fire a grenade at your teammates as above, wait a sec, and once the fade or whatever is damaged, fire grenades at whatever exit you think the enemy will most likely retreat to. Great way to kill fades, IMO.
They should consider g launcher a type of siege weapon.
Glauncher should be used solely for the purpose of quickly clearing out a wall of lame or a hive.
And at the same time do considerably less damage to units like skulk or fades.
Maybe onos could be considered as structures so gl could actualy take em out.
This way G launchers would HAVE to be used with a team.
As to reloading at the armory, I always auto-reload immediately when I get my first half-clip of ammo, unless I start mucking around switching between weapons, which doesn't really save much time. Maybe this is yet another FPS thing? If your FPS is high enough, maybe you can fill up from the armory fast enough to prevent the auto-reload kicking in?
And sekdar, I think you overestimate the skill used to use a grenade launcher. Yes you need half a brain, but on the other hand you don't need uber-l33t reflexes and aim. It does instantly make you something of a support unit, just like a welder instead of a pistol, but that's really not too hard to grasp.
I can see /why/ they might have set the reload so slow..after all every other weapon reloads with a half clip tick each time. But when your clip is only 4, and you only get 2 per tick, that means /15/ seconds at the armory, the mother of all "Get out of the base and do something" insults on it's way unless the Com understands that limiation. I think maybe the GL should be changed to a clip per second, seeing how small it is. Or, up it back to 6 per clip, make it 3 per second. At least then it would only be 10 seconds.
you'd be surprised <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh, and a GL is the MOST expensive gun in the TSA armory. Not only does it cost 33 res to hand out, but you WILL need to drop ammo on the GL guy - a LOT of ammo. Half a res per grenade is just an insane cost - the only thing costing more is not dropping ammo on him. It takes FOREVER to fully load a GL (or 15 seconds .. well, it feels like forever).
Bw, fireing off 32 shots with the GL takes 44 seconds. That means you are looking at about 5760/44 -> 130 sustained[1] damage/sec. That's in fact LOWER than the HMG at 180[2] sustained damage/sec. And that's counting the blast damage - against aliens, you are getting only about 75 damage/sec, which is less than a shotguns 95[3], and about comparable to an LMG's 70[4]. A pistol, bw is down to about 50[5] dam/sec.
This tells you that a GL is only to be used when its area effect will damage multiple structures or aliens.
[1] sustained damage is damage from a clip divided by time to offload clip AND reload the weapon again.
[2] 150 shots times 18 dam in 7.5 seconds, then reload for 7.5 seconds -> 150/15 * 18 = 180 sustained
[3] 10 shots a 160 dam in 10 sec, then reload for 7 sec ~> 95 dam/sec
[4] 50 shots a 10 in 3.5 sec, then reload for another 3 ~> 70 dam/sec
[5] 10 shots a 20 in 1 sec, then reload for 3 sec ~> 50 dam/sec.
This tells you that a GL is only to be used when its area effect will damage multiple structures or aliens.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good calculation - I've always instinctively known that, but I've never seen the numbers. I certainly wouldn't choose a GL for a rapid hive takedown <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> But the GL isn't only about area effect - it's also about long range, trick shots, and umbra penetrating.