Skulk Bite Model

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Before I step up to the plate to bat, I put a few weights on my bat and swing around a bit. The weights trick me and make me think the bat is lighter so I can swing harder and faster, increasing my chances of hitting a homerun. The guy on the other team see's this, but DOES NOT do it. His chances of hitting a homerun are decreased. He says i am exploiting.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

To extend your analogy, you are leaving the weights on the bat when you step up to the plate. If you only removed the teeth when practicing, your analogy would be correct.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So where is the line between exploiting and well......common knowledge? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The line is where the Dev Team says it is and they have said removing the teeth is exploiting.

SoBe_Dragon · February 2003

ahhhh PERFECT! r_drawview should be locked to 1 during tournament mode, and left the same for pubs. Cause what are pubs then practicing and having fun?

MMZ_Torak · February 2003

Pubs are only for "practicing and having fun" for people that play on ladders. People who do not play on ladders deserve an equal playing feild as well.

BlueGhost · February 2003

Yea auto-aim or something, humerously it generaly helps you miss more than hit.

It really does boggle the mind the number of people who use r_draw and then don't see it as exploiting ho hum.

BlueGhost

Ruri · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Talesin and MonsE already punched some holes in your "skill cap" argument and the "ALL THE TOP CLANS sumthin sumthin"</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The #1 clan totally supports it and many members from the #2 clan do also. And then there are many more that I hear complain about it which are high ranked clans.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Goshdarnit, that smilie you added actually made it seem like you´d come to some brilliant conclusion...you almost had me there!

Gee, Sir, why do they check the box??? Ummm, what, they actually WANT a level playing field? They don´t like to play at a disadvantage???<img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>
You, of course, aleady know this - but you hope that noone will notice your self-serving and obviously flawed argument. Try this one, Ruri:

Some people don´t like to play with aimbots. But let´s make aimbots "1" by default, and have people check a box if they want it disabled. OMG! WHY ARE THEM PEOPLE CHECKING TEH BOX IF TEHY SAID THEY DIDN´T LIKE AIMBOTS!!! OMG!!!11!!
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You're EXACTLY right. It LEVELS the playing field, so whats wrong with giving people an official option to enable/disable? It has alrdy been established that the skulk bite is annoying to quite a few people. Also I said there is a line between hacking and exploiting, and I even said I'm not suggesting aim bots be allowed. I really don't think a significant amount of people want aim bots included in NS. But there sure is a sinificant amount of people wanting the skulk bite changed, and it's not even CLOSE to an aim bot. Geez it's what most of us are used to anyways: unhindered vision in our FPS games. I've never wanted to turn off gun models like I want to in NS before. Let alone has it been considered exploiting.

BlueGhost · February 2003

Ruri of course most of the top clans want it to stay, most of the top clans want B-hopping to stay,

The reason the top clans are top is because they use any advantage they can get away with to win, they silent b-hop they turn on r_draw and they use JP scripts if these things help.

And because they've all spent so much time not practicing with r_draw set to 1 they going to have to learn skills that non exploiters take as given.

MAN its such a shock they don't want it locked isn't it.

Of course given that they've 'lost' the battle to leave it un-locked they're now playing for having the model toned down or removed because then while everyone else will gain their old advantage, they won't have to learn the skills that non exploiters have aready learnt.

BlueGhost

Relic25 · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ruri @ Feb 20 2003, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Here is the problem at hand. <b>People will remain angry if it is not changed. Noone will be angry if it is changed.</b>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You could not be more incorrect if you tried.

I have yet to see a single valid argument for either removing the model entirely or allowing the model to be turned off. What is even worse is when people claim things as fact when they have no evidence at all to support it. Count the number of unique posters in this thread that support the model versus those who support its removal, then tell me again with a straight face that more people dislike the bite model.

This is precisely why I stopped posting for so long. Non-stop bitching and complaining from people who have no basis for their arguments or qualification for criticizing.

Purelace · February 2003

I will be sorely disappointed if the skulk bitemodel is removed in future patches. It's one of NS's truly shining unique facets, and it's just damn cool atmosphere-wise.

Honestly, I can't see why people would complain about this. Sure, you can see it as a definitive impediment during combat, but as long as EVERYONE ELSE has that disadvantage as well, your arguments are flawed. See, the only valid complaint you can make in this situation would be that some people play with it on, and some with it off. In 1.1, it will be locked always-on. Thus, the playing field is equal for all. It does not logically make sense to say that the skulk bitemodel provides any sort of "skill cap", as learning to play around it is a skill in itself.

nny · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Big Game Hunter @ Feb 17 2003, 08:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Make the skulk's jaws only close all the way on <b>misses</b>, on hits make them only close a little bit.
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I think this idea, and make the model translucent with the 'flashlight' toggle are the best ideas yet.

People get to choose between a solid, opaque model that blocks the view, or a high intensity translucent model not quite as useful as invisible, but staying within the idea of alien sight making aliens translucent.

The attack animation code may not allow for hit detection, but if it could be done, sounds like a reasonable idea. Anyone think there would be too much of an advantage chomping on a building ? Too easy to see incoming marines ?

MedHead · February 2003

You know what I suggest? Stop the non-stop chomping, and bite only when needed. I have seen so many players hold the fire button down. They're biting non-stop, running blindly around the area, trying to hit the elusive marine. If you burst fire (both with the light machine gun and skulk bite) you are more likely to hit your target than if you hold the fire button down. That's seems to me to be the only logical, legitamate, fair way of fixing this 'problem.'

Naughty_Brembo · February 2003

Ruri:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You're EXACTLY right. It LEVELS the playing field, so whats wrong with giving people an official option to enable/disable? It has alrdy been established that the skulk bite is annoying to quite a few people. Also I said there is a line between hacking and exploiting, and I even said I'm not suggesting aim bots be allowed. I really don't think a significant amount of people want aim bots included in NS. But there sure is a sinificant amount of people wanting the skulk bite changed, and it's not even CLOSE to an aim bot. Geez it's what most of us are used to anyways: unhindered vision in our FPS games. I've never wanted to turn off gun models like I want to in NS before. Let alone has it been considered exploiting.

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I guess straight-forward analogies are wasted on you as you seem to be missing the point completely....let´s try this instead:

<b>It´s getting locked. Start adapting.</b>

Licho · February 2003

Leave my nice long skulk teeths alone!! Don't give them out! :-)

SoBe_Dragon · February 2003

see? some people like it, some dont. Leave it as a user option so people can further customize their game.

heathenSlayer · February 2003

<b>"And besides, who ever heard of transparent teeth?! "</b>

For the sake of fairness, who ever heard of eyes in a mouth?!

<b>"Ruri of course most of the top clans want it to stay, most of the top clans want B-hopping to stay,

The reason the top clans are top is because they use any advantage they can get away with to win"</b>

I'll bet you a large sum of money that if bhop is removed, the top clans will stay in the top. (not taking into account some argument or internal conflict not related to gameplay) They bhop because most of the members have a typically higher level of skill at HL games and are able to do it.

Mart · February 2003

I wasn't aware that bunny-hopping required <b>huge</b> amounts of skill to perform.

Shockeh · February 2003

And ickle me STILL finds the muzzle flash far more annoying than the bite. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Edit : /me slaps Mart.

"Don't you start THAT one up again!"

SoulSkorpion · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No amount of skill can overcome blocked vision. The other senses can only go so far to aid.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> -Ruri
Nope, skill can and does overcome blocked vision. That's exactly what I was trying to assert. I've done it, ergo it is possible to do. It's possible to hear where your target is even without headphones, so it's CERTAINLY possible to hear where your target is with. Come on, don't say stupid things like this; I've done it myself so I know what I'm talking about.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You know what I suggest? Stop the non-stop chomping, and bite only when needed. I have seen so many players hold the fire button down. They're biting non-stop, running blindly around the area, trying to hit the elusive marine</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> -MedHead

God, I've been saying this for AGES. Come on, people. Leave the model as it is and learn to deal with it!

Moon · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Relic25 @ Feb 20 2003, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ruri @ Feb 20 2003, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Here is the problem at hand. <b>People will remain angry if it is not changed. Noone will be angry if it is changed.</b> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You could not be more incorrect if you tried.

I have yet to see a single valid argument for either removing the model entirely or allowing the model to be turned off. What is even worse is when people claim things as fact when they have no evidence at all to support it. Count the number of unique posters in this thread that support the model versus those who support its removal, then tell me again with a straight face that more people dislike the bite model.

This is precisely why I stopped posting for so long. Non-stop bitching and complaining from people who have no basis for their arguments or qualification for criticizing.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I mean no disrespect here Relic, but it seems to me that a significant amount of people have voiced their desire to either have the model optional/removed/altered somehow. As for playing NS, I'm having a blast playing it, so good job to all the developers/NS team !!

As for valid arguments. Apart from what I've said already many times in this thread I can't really think of any additional arguments to add really. I think pretty much every argument has a counter argument. Some argue teeth for atmosphere, I argue no teeth for atmosphere. It seems very subjective. Some argue teeth for skill development, some argue no teeth for unnecessary skill development. And so on and so on...

I would think that ultimately though, everyone here is posting their thoughts because they like the game and only wish to see it get better.

saint0z · February 2003

firewaters sig said it best,

"newbies whine, veterans adapt"

Talesin · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ Feb 20 2003, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>see? some people like it, some dont. Leave it as a user option so people can further customize their game.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes... the cheaters like it, the honest players don't. Get over it. It's going to be locked. Adapt, or I'm gonna have /fun/ chasing you down over and over, when your exploit is gone and we all laugh at you with your inability to track.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 20 2003, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I'll bet you a large sum of money that if bhop is removed, the top clans will stay in the top. (not taking into account some argument or internal conflict not related to gameplay) They bhop because most of the members have a typically higher level of skill at HL games and are able to do it.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Wow. Lots of skill needed to wiggle the mouse and hold down a key, then hit the jump button at the right time. </sarcasm> All that takes is tempo and less manual dexterity than it takes to play the rest of the game. Nothing more.
And yes, perhaps only if bhop were removed. However, with bhop and r_drawviewmodels both going bye-bye, those clans who chose not to <b>exploit</b> will have a significant advantage over those who do. So I get the feeling that at least some members of sYn will be heading back to the training grounds for a good while, to learn how to play the game properly.
Not to even mention the other bugs... eternal jetpacks, raised firing rates, insta-kill pistols... all gone in v1.1, if things go according to plan. And an even better chunk of the 'top' clans off for re-training.

It's kinda sad, really. It's better to learn things through the first time, as your instant reactions are based around your first experiences without a LOT of work undoing and retraining yourself. But until then, as one of the honest players, I'm gonna have /fun/ being propelled pretty close to the top of my game, while they're re-learning their 'm4d 5|<1L|_z'.

Deacon · February 2003

The skulk player model has a long and pointy snout with a mass of teeth on the end.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to have the current view, except with a thinner mouth model. Such that, when the mouth was closed, may 50% of the screen would be blacked out, but you'd still have some visible area on both sides. It wouldn't be as good as r_drawviewmodel 0, but at least you could track targets with your mouth closed.

Seruko · February 2003

It seems like people that are against the change in bite model have three basic arguments.
1. It is perfectly spiffy dont change it at all.
2. The current bite model dosnt effect play and makes alien players more tactically oriented.
3. Exploiters whom remove the bite model are all evil cheater who should die.

This does not make a great deal of sense.
If the bite model isnt a detriment (and is in fact a bonus as some have suggested) then
why do people scream so loud against people that have removed it? Is it because they
feel like those people are only cheating themselves and they rail against the injustice
of a fellow human being making its own life harder?
I think not.
Quite obviously then, the bite model negitively affects Alien players.

It seems that there are two simple and one complex changes which have been introduced
for the bite model, without just removing it.

Simple 1. Make the teeth transparent. Alowing some vision, I have my own reservations abouthow this might look thou...
Simple 2. Make the bite obscure the whole screen/make the teeth shorter, this seems IMHO to be the most reasonable suggestion so far
and the best looking but the least championed.
Complex 1. Third Person perspective for aliens. This might seriously unbalance the game, but if it dosnt it would certaintly give aliens
a much more "alien" feel and further differentiate not only the "look" of the alien game but also their style of play.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Shrike3O · February 2003

Problems with third person involve the ability to see around corners without sticking your body around 'em...

Yes... the skulk bite model is detrimental to alien gameplay. It provides visual obscurement of the screen, making it harder for a skulk to bite continually and saw through an entire group of marines at close range.

This is the same reason that such things as "maximum rates of fire" and "maximum movement rates" are set on things in this game... to tweak them towards a particular "balance" that the development team is attempting to achieve. In the process of making this game, it was decided that the negative modifier implied by a visible biting animation was a necessary bit of balance, and when it was discovered that certain players were choosing to circumvent this balancing item, the development team decided to enforce it.

Why is this hard for people to understand?

Ph0enix · February 2003

Random dev 1: "Ok, next design decision. What can we have as an attack animation for the skulk attack ?" We've got to have something we just can't have an empty screen when you attack"

Random dev 2: "Well, i've been thinking about this, and I pretty sure I could make a pretty spiffy animation of the skulks teeth closing and opening as you bite. It is going to be a bite attack isn't it ?"

Random dev 1: "Yeah it is. Good idea its in. I'd guess it'd encourage careful attacks as well rather then just spamming bite. Nice gameplay element. OK, next item is......"

Time passes by, NS is released.

Random player 1: "Damn, I can't see these damn marines when I run around holding the fire button down, I wonder if I can get rid of that silly bite animation...."

Random dev 1: "Heh, people are removing the bite animation"

Random dev 2: "Wouldn't that un-balance skulks ? I mean they'd be chomping stuff for fun. Should we lower the damage or something ?"

Random dev 1: "No, if we do that structures will take forever to destroy. Lets just stop them from removing it, its cheating really. We'll tweak it later if needs be, but removing its not an option."

AcKz · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 20 2003, 11:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> However, with bhop and r_drawviewmodels both going bye-bye, those clans who chose not to <b>exploit</b> will have a significant advantage over those who do. So I get the feeling that at least some members of sYn will be heading back to the training grounds for a good while, to learn how to play the game properly.
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Wait.. so you're saying since we can't bhop we'll be going back to the "Training grounds"? LOL

sYnborf · February 2003

Usually I let ignorant comments pass by, but just to clear something up, I want to say something. We do NOT use drawviewmodel and in fact have it locked to '1' on all our servers and play our matches that way. Recently in leagues that DO NOT allow bunnyhopping, we have adhered to the rules and had no drop in the level of our gameplay. We never felt a need to "head back to the training grounds for a good while, to learn how to play the game properly."

Play us sometime in a scrim in the current patch w/o bunnyhop, or in 1.1. We will be waiting for you.

Edit: So the 'honest' players can play against the 'exploiters' in a fair game, we will play anyone on a WWCL server with locked drawview and whatever other anti-exploit measures you want.

Talesin · February 2003

sYnborf · February 2003

Tsk Tsk ... how about you get a clue? Any of our posts against the skulk model were almost pre 1.03. GG taking things way out of time context. I think someone has some kind of personal grudge against us or something. Also taken out of time context is our 'silent bunnyhopping'. We do not 'silent bunnyhop' anymore ever since it was publicly known to be an exploit.

Talesin · February 2003

Nope, a couple went up when 1.04 was still in beta, just about to release.

And... at what point was silent-bunnyhopping NOT an exploit, if nothing else than through the common sense of 'hmm, move faster, not make any noise.. I wonder if this might be a cheat?'. Nahhhhhh. Couldn't be.

sYnborf · February 2003

Mmm, yes our match vs NG which was on a 1.03 server btw. Also keep in mind that at that time only one of our players even used the silent bunnyhop, and that was more of a habit of using the crouching key. If you know anything at all about clan play, you know that marines travel together, and it really gives no advantages if there is 1 silent hopper along with 3 other noisy marines now is there?. If you think bhopping gives such a hige advantage, I think someone ELSE needs to go back to th training grounds and learn how to play.

Btw, I dont bunnyhop, I never have, and I dont know how. However, I dont go around saying **** about other clans. Take that into perspective.

Skulk Bite Model

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