Player skills as a marine or alien?(long)
lazygamer
Join Date: 2002-01-28 Member: 126Members
Join Date: 2002-01-28 Member: 126Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Shooting and melee...</div>Here's what I was wondering. How much potential for player skills will there be? Of course by player skills im refering to the RL player. What I estimate is:
ALIENS
-Being good at choosing effective upgrade combos
-Knowing how to master the complex movement capabilities
-Knowing the map
-Knowing how to have basic melee competence
-Good instincts
MARINES
-Working as a team.
-Knowing how to control the diffrent styles and amounts of firearm recoil.
-Knowing how to correctly time and bounce hand and launched grenades.
-Having good player accuracy(where you have the cursor when aiming at the alien)
-Knowing the map.
-Good instincts.
Ok sounds good but there is two points i'd like to bring up.
First, the marine weapons MUST require a good degree of player skill to be able to REALLY utilize them good. That means they can't be laser accurate and they can't be low recoil. At the same time, they must feel realistic. So the guns(except NS pistol) would be far more accurate then a pistol in another HL mod, and the guns shouden't have EXTREME recoil.
The other point is about the aliens
Considering how much melee there will be for aliens, it would be cool to have it actually take some skill to be super effective. In a CS knife fight for example, you have a low range knife, and both of you are moving at the exact same speed. Thus it takes alot of skill.
In NS you likely have more range with melee and you move ALOT faster then those dumb marines. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
What would make things more interesting:
1:Aliens have a few diffrent attacks. So let's take Bob for example. He can slash you, he can double slash you(more cumbersome, attacks with both claws at once), and he can bite you.
2:You move alot slower while your attacking(so do the marines of course).
3:Although it works fine to just hammer away, you can attack up to 50% faster if master "attack combos". Basically you don't have any "special moves" you just raise your attack speed by hitting the right attack moves(or body movements) at the right moments. The more complex the combo, the better the speed increase. Of course it's harder to nail the right keys as your wailing away alot faster. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
So this would work kinda like a fighting game, but not quite.
ALIENS
-Being good at choosing effective upgrade combos
-Knowing how to master the complex movement capabilities
-Knowing the map
-Knowing how to have basic melee competence
-Good instincts
MARINES
-Working as a team.
-Knowing how to control the diffrent styles and amounts of firearm recoil.
-Knowing how to correctly time and bounce hand and launched grenades.
-Having good player accuracy(where you have the cursor when aiming at the alien)
-Knowing the map.
-Good instincts.
Ok sounds good but there is two points i'd like to bring up.
First, the marine weapons MUST require a good degree of player skill to be able to REALLY utilize them good. That means they can't be laser accurate and they can't be low recoil. At the same time, they must feel realistic. So the guns(except NS pistol) would be far more accurate then a pistol in another HL mod, and the guns shouden't have EXTREME recoil.
The other point is about the aliens
Considering how much melee there will be for aliens, it would be cool to have it actually take some skill to be super effective. In a CS knife fight for example, you have a low range knife, and both of you are moving at the exact same speed. Thus it takes alot of skill.
In NS you likely have more range with melee and you move ALOT faster then those dumb marines. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
What would make things more interesting:
1:Aliens have a few diffrent attacks. So let's take Bob for example. He can slash you, he can double slash you(more cumbersome, attacks with both claws at once), and he can bite you.
2:You move alot slower while your attacking(so do the marines of course).
3:Although it works fine to just hammer away, you can attack up to 50% faster if master "attack combos". Basically you don't have any "special moves" you just raise your attack speed by hitting the right attack moves(or body movements) at the right moments. The more complex the combo, the better the speed increase. Of course it's harder to nail the right keys as your wailing away alot faster. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
So this would work kinda like a fighting game, but not quite.
Comments
.. thats one of those features that cause you to learn the game by heart. /me personally dislikes that.
´
Point 2: The Aliens already are way more powerful than the marines. So if you gotta have a 5 vs. 5 -> At the moment it could be a fair fight if the marines got turrets <b>(AFAIK)</b>
If you insert that combo system then you unbalance the game. So if you take the same situation 5 aliens vs. 5 marines- the aliens are all good in combos. So the aliens attack about 50% faster (like you said) and maybe also a little heavier. => the marines can't stand a chance.
Now you may say. OK then just give the marines better weapons so they got a chance against high skilled aliens.
Also unbalances the game cause if you then have 5 aliens who are not good in combos then they don't have a chance.
Sorry for sounding ignorent but I just think that such a feature (also if its a nice one) would do up a learning curve that maybe would be to high for the n00bs. And I don't mean the NS n00bs who play CS for example. I mean ppl playing a FPS for the first or second time.
[EDIT]
Shouldn't that be discussed in the Ideas Forum? <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
[/EDIT]
My main point though.... PLZ MAKE MARINE WEAPONZ REQUIRE SKILL! <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
Marine weapon skills right now are not about recoil but ammo conservation.
Both sides must have a good knowledge of the respective tech trees to master this mod.
You can play NS and have fun without any of the listed skills, the faster you master these skills the faster you will master the game.
<!--EDIT|ChromeAngel|May 08 2002,13:09-->
What I mean is, I'm sure this has been discussed by the dev team, and I'm sure they have a plan.
To bring it back to NS: By all means there should be recoil on the weapons. But I really hope it's not ridiculous. Marines shouldn't be perforating the ceiling if they don't adjust their shots.
but i definitley vote for recoil
anhd are you shure you can destroy it?
Yes, but then again wouldn't that mean that if you the drones and hydras got taken out, the game would be over? Cause with no CC the marines loose alot of control and ability in the game, and then if they got taken out, would the game be over?
Recoil should play some part in the game due to the fact the different guns should require different skill. A doom or quake like weapon system wouldn't really be that great since you could get a chaingun or machine gun and run around hitting everything you aim at holding down Mouse1. So i say that the stronger rifle based weapons hould have some recoil, but not like the ak47 recoil where every shot you fired had to be a click each. bah...cant think...must get some caffine
<!--EDIT|humbaba|May 09 2002,22:28-->
The thing with recoil on weapons is that people tend to go a little crazy with it. Witness Dodv2.0. The allies BAR climbs like crazy when you let off a string of shots. History shows, however, that the gun weighed 18 LBS! Without ammo! Every historical piece I've read said the recoil was not an issue because of all that weight holding it down.
To bring it back to NS: By all means there should be recoil on the weapons. But I really hope it's not ridiculous. Marines shouldn't be perforating the ceiling if they don't adjust their shots.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very excellent point. I have to agree, recoil should be in without being excessive. After all, the marine guns are probably equivalent in weight to a real-life light machine gun(IE:m249), except firing a calibre bigger then a 7.62x51mm.(Cuz these are aliens after all) Still with all the weight and size, recoil would be controlable. /ends realism rant ;)
Say on the topic of realism, will there be any accuracy or recoil changes for crouching, jumping, running, standing still or going prone(if you have that)?
I actually think being able to get nice recoil improvement while prone would be a big teamwork encourager. 3 marines on the move VS 3 marines on their bellies with their LMG's fixed on the doorway. Of course being prone has it's own risks. :)
So in summary, recoil should still be manageable when running(but having the DOD style gun sway would be cool to), but bursting/laying off the trigger a bit still has to be employed some. Whereas when prone, HOLD IT DOWN! ;)
the point for this game (it seems, at least on the marines end) is for massive teamplay, and there would be less tactics involved and more running around and shooting.
on a side note, i think there should be different classes of marines: soldier, guy with a flamethrower, machinegunner.
Moving on, yes there should be some simulated recoil, but of course the method of its employement is up to the NS team. No you cannot currently go prone (at least in the NSTR2).
As for the alien skills, from what I've heard they already have some pretty damn lethal attacks at their disposal (i.e. stinkcloud) so I'm not convinced they are required.
And <b><i> back the alien expressway up </b></i> for a second... You can build Command Centers?!?! when did this happen? WHY WASN'T I INFORMED?!?! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Reaver
P.S. What's this that I hear about the damage being comparable to CS? That seems wrong somehow... what fun would the game be if deaths went as fast as they do in CS?
--Scythe--
<a href="mailto:the_only_scythe@subdimension.com">the_only_scythe@subdimension.com</a>
The problem with the expanding crosshairs system is that it's unrealistic. That's fine and all, except it ends up making it alot easier to hit your enemy if your firing like crazy. The reason is that the bullet randomly goes to a space within the size of the expanded crosshairs. In real-life, guns(automatics or 3RB guns anyways) spew out bullets so fast that that the recoil wouden't affect the aim of the 2nd shot like in CS. Remember, something like an 800RPM gun is around 13 rounds being fired in 1 second.
Expanding crosshairs would work better if they kept track of where the last bullet landed and put the next bullet randomly very close to it. Also the crosshairs would have to have less max expansion, and/or expand and recover slower.
In a game like Firearms or GW, the recoil ends up affecting the normal accuracy of the gun, but where the last round landed is taken into account.
1) the barrel of the gun, where the force occurs, is above the grip, where the stationary point (your hand) is. So pushing back will push the muzzle up as the gun rotates slightly in your hand.
2) in pistol-type weapons, a backwards force may cause your elbows to bend. This will result in your forearms - and the gun - moving upwards.
3) in rifle-type weapons (where the gun is cradled against your shoulder), a backwards force will push against your whole torso - which will bend at the waist, putting the muzzle once again into the air.
Generally speaking, single-fire (semi-auto) weapons like a pistol or shotgun are fairly accurately represented by "jump" recoil - fire them, they buck up. Full-auto or burst-fire weapons (machine guns or a semi-auto pistol fired rapidly) would be more accurately portrayed by a widening crosshair - as your muscles attempt to cope with the recoil, further shots will be thrown off-target in all directions, not just up.
It's interesting to note that a bazooka or similar, single-fire rocket type weapon actually has very little recoil. This is because most of the force escapes out the rear vent.
When you think about it, if you used a frag grenade and were close enough to get burned by splashing blood, acidic blood would be the least of your worries. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->
It's interesting to note that a bazooka or similar, single-fire rocket type weapon actually has very little recoil. This is because most of the force escapes out the rear vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah so that's why! I always thought either
A:Rockets don't go at 3000FPS like bullets, so they slowly release there energy.
B:Rocket launchers use some l33t technology.
not a rip-off of aliens? your joking, right?
As for the rocket launcher... trust me, you don't want to be standing behind someone who fires a shoulder-mounted rocket. All the exhaust comes right out the back.