I'd just like to give a comment about the creationism - darwinism debate:
While I'm not darwinist myself (I believe that evolution does not progress steadily, but goes in short phases of evolutionary innovation and long phases of further perfection of those innovations, just to be followed by the next 'revolution'.), I'd like to point one of the oldest 'pro-darwinism' arguments on Earth out:
The Bible covers it.
Please put the scythes down for a bit, let me explain: If we assume for a moment that the Bible, or at least parts of the Bible, were influenced by God Himself, we've also got to assume that He would chose a way of telling the Genesis that would be at least remotely understandeable to the people of that time (a time, by the way, in which the majority still believed thunder to be holy rage). Now, if you take a look at the Genesis and don't take it literally (which is always a dangerous thing to do when you're dealing with a book that's 2000 years old and has been translated multiple dozen times), you'll discover that the seven days of the creation of the world are pretty close to our todays scientific chronological timeline of the evolution (all animals that were known at the time are called in the right order etc.), although of course dramatically 'sped up', which makes sense because the people of that time had no imagination of the timescales in the evolution. Keep in mind that the Bible was written for sheepherders and farmers, and you'll soon see that it doesn't contradict with the idea of an evolution.
As for the 'it all fits too well' argument, there have been some simulations made. It is for example possible for an eye to develope out of a completely normal cell conglomerate within some thousand generations, of which each had a little advantage over the last one because their 'protoeye' was a little more sensitive to light than the older types. This is of course no proof in the scientific sense, but it shows it is possible.
'Translating' (not in the language sense) the Bible is a dangerous thing. While you say that evolution fits if you consider the days to mean chunks of millions of years, I disagree. It seems to make sense to me with the literal translation: days. People weren't stupid in the Bible times. Egyptian people in the Bible times were, in many ways, smarter than us in the present day. There are many other instances that show that they were not technologically advanced, yet were intelligent. God doesn't dumb down His word. He gives it to us in ways we can handle... a little at a time. But He doesn't change His message so that we can understand it.
Also, I entirely disagree with the eye comment. Let's take what you're saying for granted. Let's say that my cells can mutate to form an eye. For years, people have said that they would like three arms to do the work in their life. Seems simple enough - grow another arm! Hey, we made eyes! Why then don't we see another nub of flesh and bone sticking out of our torso, slowly evolving over the years to form another arm? Why do we all have only two eyes? And why are our eyes so insensitive to the dark, while our supposed 'evolutionary ancestors' have better eyesight? Why would we, in our evolution, actually <b>lose</b> skills? That makes no sense to me! While we are evolving, why aren't we killed out? Suddenly we can't see in the dark anymore.
Do you get what I'm saying? You have no proof to support your claims. Evolution is a scientific theory (or farce, in my opinion). As such, it is my opinion that you need <i>scientific proof</i> that such a theory is real. To this day, no solid tangible evidence has maintained validity supporting such a theory.
You might say the same about the Bible. The thing is, as a Believer, I don't need any proof. I have the Bible. I have faith God is real, and in my life at all times. I believe that I am different, and that I am changed, and that I am to seek out others who want to be changed as well. I know that there is a Heaven, and a Hell, and for those who don't believe in the gift of Jesus Christ, they are doomed to eternity in Hell. My life has a purpose. I'm not a chain in a link of mutations. I am a servant of God. He is my Master. Some of you may shake your head sadly and think how strange and brainwashed I may sound. I would rather live my life thinking a Savior is there to greet me when I die, only to find out it's all untrue, than to live my life thinking I'm a descended from an animal, and that nothing awaits me after death. What a cold, lonely, sorrowful world so many live in.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To this day, no solid tangible evidence has maintained validity supporting such a theory. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Look around you my freind. Why would God make nearly all of his creatures virtually identicall? Not even on the genetic level, where it is ludicrous how similar to the higher mammals we are, but in outward body shape. Every single quadraped has followed the same rules for limb structure, with very few differences(the most major of which amounts to a toe missing or extra). Look at the fossil record. Why would God have created whole species that have died off, and new ones that have appeared, if he created the Earth in such a perfect manner as is befitting to a devine being? It's not as iff the process of evolution is hard to see. Look at the common cold. It survives by evolution. It utilises normal mutations in it's genetic code(that happen millions of times, in a very short time) to overcome your bodie's defenses. Same with teh AIDS virus. Same with influensa. Influensa, by the way, being a species that no one had heard of until some 150 years ago(just as the AIDS had never been heard of 30 years ago), how did it magically appear? Was it God? I thought God stopped plagueing people a while ago. Even with the more advanced creatures, humans, for example. If the human race started with only two people, how is that there is so much variation today? I'll tell you how, many thousands of years of living in a specific area, with a specific climate, specific food sources, and other eviromnental factors, the people have undergone the slow process of evolution, in fact, if humans had not developed ways of covering large distances very fast, it's a sure bet that they eventually would have undergone speciation. No tangible evidence, huh? Just look beyond the limitations of your repressive faith in the completely unsupported(and frankly, kind of ignorant) religion, and see the natural process. See the way things work. You won't see God there, of that I am sure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Getting back to my origional argument in thread(whoa! That's going way back), we once again see how the religious individual has taken himself to seriously, and when this argument is used, he is so full of himself and the "holyness" of the idea of god, that, to him, no argument is neccesary.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right there. To me, no argument for God is nescisary in my heart, because of the things I've seen Him do in my life. I debated about it for a long time before I became a Christian, but that point was about 5 years ago, and my beliefs from that moment on have nothing but strengthened.
I do, however, take offense to your comment of calling me full of myself and taking myself too seriously. For one, this is not just a belief, this is my life! My life, in more ways then one, revolves around the core beliefs of my creed. My friends, for the most part, are all Christians. My source of strength when everything else is gone is the Lord my God. The whole reason I have a life now, social or otherwise, is because at one point, a guy in my algebra class decided to invite me out to his Church. You have to understand, that at that time, I was a complete, utter loser. I liked pokemon cards, even! Nobody would really ever go out of their way to talk to me, to the point where my best and only friend stabbed me in the back by denying he had ever known me. That's the kind of life I led. I'm not an outgoing person, I'm really not. I've gotten better, but in the end I still have trouble actually going over and talking to people. So imagine walking into my friends church with him, and immediately being asked questions about what kind of things I did in my spare time, about what bands I liked, and about what kind of things I did in school? Imagine being cared about, not because I was popular, or rich or even cool, as was the requirement for having a social life in middle school, but because I had the distinct quality of being a human being. That's love right there, when someone who you don't even know gives a damn about what happens to you the next day. You call it common courtisy, I call it a miracle.
So, how can I take that too seriously?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I always find it better to attack the religion from inside itself, systematically disproving the beliefs at the core of the religion, and pointing out any contradiction within the religion itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, lets have me stop trying to disprove what you believe, and have you turn the barrel on Christianity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->'Translating' (not in the language sense) the Bible is a dangerous thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I don't know how to tell you this - but we all do. Let's take the 'easiest' case: The Ten Commandments. Ten simple rules to orient your life after. Should be easy enough to follow that, right? Wrong. The Commandments are listed twice in the Bible, and the fact alone that they don't follow the exactely same words means that they can contradict in some cases, even more, their usual interpretations vary from place to place: Take the commandment we usually shorten up to 'Thou shalt not lie', for example - read closely, it simply states that one shall not state false facts against another human - any historican will tell you that this is obviously aimed towards the Hebrew layman trials. When reading closely, you'll soon see that many different books in the Bible contradict each other in that they display different opinions about theological questions; just take the four Evangelists, which can't even seem to find a consensus about Jesus' last words.
Also, I did not assume the people of the time the Bible was written in were dumb, I just say that they weren't scientifically advanced enough to fully understand the concepts of a creation throughout the course of multiple billion years. What I described has nothing to do with 'dumbing down' His word, it is much more comparable to the kind of 'shortened' explanations we are thaught in school: If you try to tell some physics beginner about the backgrounds of Einsteins theories right away, he won't understand a thing, simply because he has nothing to orient on. So you teach him a simplified explanation first, wait until that one has sunken in, and then start getting more complicated. You tell him the truth "a little at a time", to use your words, and by that, they can understand it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For years, people have said that they would like three arms to do the work in their life. Seems simple enough - grow another arm! Hey, we made eyes!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my comment again - the key word is 'simulation'. I already admitted that it wasn't a real scientific prove for the evolution, but only for its possibility - a prove that the creationist theory lacks by definition.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You might say the same about the Bible. The thing is, as a Believer, I don't need any proof. I have the Bible. I have faith God is real, and in my life at all times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said I don't have that faith, too? I just believe that there is a difference between faith and questionless following.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, how can I take that too seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Apparently, rather easily. Mistaking a group of nice people for a worship worthy religion is what I call "taking something to seriously". Alright, lemme tell you a little story. I live in NH, and in this part of teh country, the christians are not exaclty "friendly". The mere fact that a religious body can change so much in personality would lead to the logical conclusion that there is, in fact, no "loving God" acting on it, and that it's all cultural. And I've been to more churches tan ones in my area that have been unfreindly. One situation in particular comes to mind, when my church was travelling cross-country as a group, we were almost laughed out of a church in Oklahoma. Once again, no love there. I'm sorry if you were a loser, but you're not the only one. Myself comes to mind. Biggest nerd you'd ever wanna see, and not a social nerd either, so I don't hang out with other nerds(playin D&D, or warhammer, or whatever). Needless to say, this has not exactly been benificiary to me in the popularity(or, indeed, the hatred-for-no-reason-by-random-people) department, but I also found a social group that excepts me and cares about me, but in may case, it came in the form of(if we MUST classify by religion here)wiccans. They(and certain punks, but very few) were the only ones that would even be seen with me, and to them I hold as much respect and love as to anyone, but does that mean that their religion is correct? You would obviously say no, even if I have as much reason for believing in it as you have for believing in yours.
I'd have to agree with AllurHive on the issue of calling a churchgoing crowd who accepts you into their arms a "miracle"... The church in general as an establishment, at least in most cases I'm aware of, promotes unity, acceptance, tolerance, and overall "niceness" (couldn't think of another way to put it). Its social conditioning that caused the given circumstances in my opinion.
As nemesis zero said, I have no problem with anyone having faith at all, people need to have faith in something to accomplish anything. I just have a problem with people having blinding unquestioning faith due to what they were raised into, or lack of individuality, or attaching onto the first good thing that comes along in their lives, "life got better when I found x religion, x religion must be right!"
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Jan 27 2003, 08:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jan 27 2003, 08:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Killymagee+Jan 27 2003, 01:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Killymagee @ Jan 27 2003, 01:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OH MY GOD!!! I type one little joke, that involved religion and it goes like this!! ahhhhh! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An intellegent discussion about religion, spouted off with an equation and a bong emoticon. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is there even a thing called hell (for me) if I do not believe in it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there gravity, if I don't believe in it? Does my lack of acknowledgment of a fact make it any less true? If I will away the sun, will it cease to rise the next morning? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> heaven is not a fact, it is an idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sephiroth2k+Jan 30 2003, 04:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sephiroth2k @ Jan 30 2003, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> heaven is not a fact, it is an idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But we can't PROVE it!
Therefore it could exist, same with gravity, (This is my opinion BTW) We can't prove it. We can prove it's effects but theres nothing to say I may drop something and it will hang in mid-air.
(But then again I do Biology, what would I know about Physics)
Alright, assuming that the crowd I was introduced to was just a byproduct of good upbringing, you still havent taken a shot at any of the core pillars of Christian belief. That's what you like to do, right? Take them down one by one until it crumbles?
Oh, and I'm sorry that you had as rough a social life as I had, and I'm glad you're finally accepted now. However, although the people are the ones that brought me out to the group, it was the message, not their attitude that kept me coming for the teaching, and eventually accepting Christ. Had it been something I could not relate to, something I could not belive in, the outcome would not have been the same, I assure you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's what you like to do, right? Take them down one by one until it crumbles?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been a very interesting and polite discussion up till now. Please don't slip into accusations.
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Jan 28 2003, 10:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Jan 28 2003, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I always find it better to attack the religion from inside itself, systematically disproving the beliefs at the core of the religion, and pointing out any contradiction within the religion itself. In the idealic situation, this would continue until the only thing left standing within the argument of the religious person is the idea of God, and without anything to hold it up, it would collapse on it's own. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry though, that was a little mean spirited. I'll cool off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even with the more advanced creatures, humans, for example. If the human race started with only two people, how is that there is so much variation today? I'll tell you how, many thousands of years of living in a specific area, with a specific climate, specific food sources, and other eviromnental factors, the people have undergone the slow process of evolution, in fact, if humans had not developed ways of covering large distances very fast, it's a sure bet that they eventually would have undergone speciation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that evolution doesn't exist at all. In fact, I find it perfectly plausable that species adapt themselves over time. However, I simply do not see it a plausable way of bringing about all life on Earth, by it's own, with out any sort of "God" Figure as an infulence.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's what you like to do, right? Take them down one by one until it crumbles?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep your pants on, no one said it would happen in one post. The whole point of that origional post was to say that I find it is better to attack a religious defense slowly, point by point. Which is, in case you havn't been reading my posts, what I have been trying to do. I have tried to stay away from the generalised argument of "There is no God, and that's that." Which is what I was commenting on in my origional post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and I'm sorry that you had as rough a social life as I had, and I'm glad you're finally accepted now. However, although the people are the ones that brought me out to the group, it was the message, not their attitude that kept me coming for the teaching, and eventually accepting Christ. Had it been something I could not relate to, something I could not belive in, the outcome would not have been the same, I assure you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What can I say? If my church was that friendly, then I'd probably like it there. But, it ain't, so I don't.
I just have to say this on a very tired subject discussed here many times.
The bible has contradictions. It has things in it I do not agree with. It has been translated by man. It was written by man.
<b><u>Point:</b></u>
<b>-</b> If you assume that man messed up the message by translating it and putting it into his own words, then you have an imperfect guide to life. Why base your existance off that?
<b>-</b> If you assume that the bible is divinely inspired and holds the true word of god, and you find contradictions and things in it that you do not agree with; why base your life off of that? You can't relate to it so don't force feed yourself.
I have a few things to say. First of all, a few questions. What language was each part of the Old Testament written in? Do they still exist? What metaphors did they use? Then I'd like to say that until the invention of the printing press, all religious texts were hand copied. Hand copied by scribes, either in the service of a feudal lord or an omnipotent church. We can never know what the bible originally said, and certainly not what it meant. Almost any book you read will have a metaphor at some point which cannot be taken literally. I think that the main problem with the main western religions is the way people read it. I've never read the Old Testament, the New Testamen, the Koran, or anything really. But for those that had, I'd like to say something(I hope I haven't offended anyone yet). When you read your religious text, do you take it literally? Or do you read it, and step back to reflect, to look past the words and events, to consider the message hidden beneath? I think that anyone who's ever taken English in school has had to do this, although not with religious texts. All this interpretation, is it about the message or the words? I am ignorant on many levels, I admit it. As for evolution, I think God is smart. I "feel" something when I think about a God making a system of physical laws that creates complex interaction on a scale that no human being can truly comprehend. I think that evolution glorifies God in this respect, and I get few responses to that comment. There have been some experiments lately that use Darwinian evolutionary computer models to "invent" things, mostly circuits. In January of 2000, 15 inventions were re-created by "random" simulations. Six of these were enough of an improvement on the original to be patented. There are also completely new designs being generated. Someone had to program these simulations, and run billions of repetions. Certain designs had to be selected to "mate" more than others. I won't go into details, largely because I lack the understanding to. Think about it, check out the February 2003 issue of Scientific American if u want. I don't have the energy for a debate, especially not over the internet during my weekend.
P.S. Since when has Jesus *been* God, don't most Christian sects believe him to be a divine messanger/avatar?
Dez, If it had things you don't agree with, then that's ok, at least you actually look at it. However, I would like you to point out some of these contradictions. There was one before about Jesus being related to David. Joseph was pledged to be married to Mary, and so, has a relation there.
However, perhaps I'm not the best person to talk to about that. I found a well-written article on it on my church's web site.
<!--QuoteBegin--Neptalid+Feb 1 2003, 05:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Neptalid @ Feb 1 2003, 05:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that evolution glorifies God in this respect, and I get few responses to that comment. There have been some experiments lately that use Darwinian evolutionary computer models to "invent" things, mostly circuits. In January of 2000, 15 inventions were re-created by "random" simulations. Six of these were enough of an improvement on the original to be patented. There are also completely new designs being generated. Someone had to program these simulations, and run billions of repetions. Certain designs had to be selected to "mate" more than others. I won't go into details, largely because I lack the understanding to. Think about it, check out the February 2003 issue of Scientific American if u want. I don't have the energy for a debate, especially not over the internet during my weekend. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh yes, it's called Genetic Programming, and I'm hoping to make a career out of it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
As I said, or at least thought about saying (Damn horrible memory), I don't discredit small scale, micro-evolution, because that works. I simply find it hard to believe that the entire world aroud us evolved from nothing without any outside infulence.
P.S. Since when has Jesus *been* God, don't most Christian sects believe him to be a divine messanger/avatar?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I'm pretty sure that nearly all of them believe that He was and is God (Enter the Trinity. He was God, but so is the father in heaven, and the holy spirit) . Main reason is that if you believe that he was just a man, then there comes the nasty little problem of sin, because, since "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god -Romans 3:23", if Jesus was just a man, then his sacrifice means nothing, because something imperfect cannot take on the burden of other important things. The basis for you being saved, at least at the church I go to, was that Jesus was God, and that he voluntarily gave up his perfect life in order to spare countless billions judgement.
EDIT: Sorry for the stream of posts, BTW, I'm just bored.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There was one before about Jesus being related to David. Joseph was pledged to be married to Mary, and so, has a relation there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus was not "related to" David. He was "descended from" David(Timothy 2:8). But yet, he wasn't, if you are to believe in teh virgin birth.
BTW, I got another one for ya! Matthew 27:5, Acts 1:16-18. How can Judas die twice?
I just found this one, and it's pretty intersesting. Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." The son of man should repent, huh? How many times does Mark(let alone anyone else) refer to Jesus specifically as the "Son Of Man"? A bunch I'd wager.
Woah, if Jesus was God, then....whAaA? How could God die, well his mortal body could if he wanted it to. Then how does God letting his mortal body die save us from that same god's judgement? If humans killed God when he came to Earth, why would he decide to absolve them of sin? Unless God gets off on people torturing and killing him, I'm confused....
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
The theory is that by allowing his son to be sacraficed and spend a little time in hell, it allows him to serv as a proxy for all our sin, thus allowing us to go to heaven(sometimes).
[QUOTE=AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 1 2003, 08:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 1 2003, 08:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The theory is that by allowing his son to be sacraficed and spend a little time in hell, it allows him to serv as a proxy for all our sin, thus allowing us to go to heaven(sometimes). [/QUOTE] All the time, if you believe in him:
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
[QUOTE]If humans killed God when he came to Earth, why would he decide to absolve them of sin? [/QUOTE]
Love.
John 3:16 <span style='color:red'>"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."</span>
As for the Judas one.
<!--QuoteBegin--NIV Study notes for Acts 1:18] Judas bought a field indirectly: The money he returned to the preists was used to purchase the potter's field. Mt 27:5 reported that when the body finally fell, either because of decay or because someone cut it down, it was in a decomposed condition and so broke open at the middle. Another possibility is that "hanged" in Mt 27:5 means "impaled" and that the gruesome results of Judas' suicide are described here.[/QUOTE]
So yeah, I think that explains things pretty well. It's things like this that make me want to learn Greek, and it's things like Spanish class that convince me otherwise <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the Mary/Joseph relation thing, read the link. If it still doesn't clear things up, I'll argue the point.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So yeah, I think that explains things pretty well. It's things like this that make me want to learn Greek, and it's things like Spanish class that convince me otherwise <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um.....no? All that shows me is that the christian church is good at making bad excuses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How does one "obtain" a field with money you gave away?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the Mary/Joseph relation thing, read the link. If it still doesn't clear things up, I'll argue the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What link?
And I had to take this chance to point out some scripture that you probably know, being that it's the major sticking point between Catholics and Prodestants. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works." Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So we're not saved by works, but only by faith(key word NOT)? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Matthew 19:17 "He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This not only contradicts the earlier statements, but also shows how Jesus separates himself from God, thus taking himself out of any "holy trinity".
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 1 2003, 10:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 1 2003, 10:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And I had to take this chance to point out some scripture that you probably know, being that it's the major sticking point between Catholics and Protestants. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works." Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So we're not saved by works, but only by faith(key word ONLY)? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Matthew 19:17 "He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This not only contradicts the earlier statements, but also shows how Jesus separates himself from God, thus taking himself out of any "holy trinity". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So yeah, I think that explains things pretty well. It's things like this that make me want to learn Greek, and it's things like Spanish class that convince me otherwise <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um.....no? All that shows me is that the christian church is good at making bad excuses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's possible that that excuse fits into all appropriate contexts, then is it an excuse, or the truth taken from the context of the information given?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How does one "obtain" a field with money you gave away? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indirectly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the Mary/Joseph relation thing, read the link. If it still doesn't clear things up, I'll argue the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What link? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.xenos.org/ct_outln/lk3-38.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.xenos.org/ct_outln/lk3-38.htm</a>
Of course, that's probably just a bad excuse too, right?
James 2:18:
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
In other words, once it's in context, it says to follow through on what you say. You are saved by faith. Your faith is made apparent and obvious, and justified to those around you by your deeds.
Matthew 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
IN other words:
All good is derived from God, the only one that is truely good.
All through the New Testement, the idea of salvation as a free gift is abundant. Therefore, if we are to discern the meaning of this passage, with the assumption that it is true, it must agree with the other statements made. The derived meaning <b>must</b> agree with the direct meanings.
Thus, this statement cannot say that you have to be good, or do things to get to heaven. So, "entering life" could, and has to be, used as a strengthening aspect to faith, not a replacement for it.
If you go to transelate this with the assumption that it is false, you'll "prove" it in numerous places. However, if you take the numerous direct statements, and use them as guidelines to interpret the other meanings, then it all works. It's the art of interpretation: You have to take the direct statements as true, and your derived meanings must follow them.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out.
How does one "obtain" a field with money you gave away? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indirectly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And dead, I forgot to say that it was obtained while he was dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course, that's probably just a bad excuse too, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well looks like you got me there, it looks like Jesus' geneology works out perfecty(if the geneology is not a complete lie, that is[and knowing God, I wouldn't put it past him])
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, once it's in context, it says to follow through on what you say. You are saved by faith. Your faith is made apparent and obvious, and justified to those around you by your deeds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, key word: NOT. Paul discludes works, he doesn't say that faith is the main part, or that faith leading to works saves you. He says that ONLY faith saves you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thus, this statement cannot say that you have to be good, or do things to get to heaven. So, "entering life" could, and has to be, used as a strengthening aspect to faith, not a replacement for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So this guy asks a question, and Jesus just kind of doesn't answer it? Because the asker asked for "eternal life" and if "enter life" does not refer to eternall life, then this guy=screwed.
Heres a big one that I thought was interesting: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not." Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In laymans: God don't flip-flop on teh issues, nor does he ever repent, but: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him." Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And, most interestingly, the biggest flip-flop of all: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods." I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No human sacrifices, except for Jesus. So now God is an abomination to himself?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course, that's probably just a bad excuse too, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well looks like you got me there, it looks like Jesus' geneology works out perfecty(if the geneology is not a complete lie, that is[and knowing God, I wouldn't put it past him])
I'm never going to win with you, am I? Not because I can't come up with the arguements, but because you're so predjudiced agaist religion in general that anything I say will fall on deaf ears.
This may or may not be my last post in this thread. I think I've been pretty tolerant for, what, 3-4 pages... but you call God a liar, and it rubs me the wrong way. NO, not "I can't bring myself to believe this", not "I don't think this is right," you come out and call it wrong, flat out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, once it's in context, it says to follow through on what you say. You are saved by faith. Your faith is made apparent and obvious, and justified to those around you by your deeds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, key word: NOT. Paul discludes works, he doesn't say that faith is the main part, or that faith leading to works saves you. He says that ONLY faith saves you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thus, this statement cannot say that you have to be good, or do things to get to heaven. So, "entering life" could, and has to be, used as a strengthening aspect to faith, not a replacement for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So this guy asks a question, and Jesus just kind of doesn't answer it? Because the asker asked for "eternal life" and if "enter life" does not refer to eternall life, then this guy=screwed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For one, check out the teaching link I posted. Yes, I despise Realplayer, but bear with it for a little bit. Secondly, put it in context please.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?" 28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
This man had no faith. The act of selling your possessions is more symbolic then anything else. If you are unwilling to lose material posessions, then how likely are you to humble yourself and ask for forgiveness? Don't be afraid to take a step of faith. In your case, that would include not automatically judging everything I say as automatically wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heres a big one that I thought was interesting: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not." Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In laymans: God don't flip-flop on teh issues, nor does he ever repent, but:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him." Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And, most interestingly, the biggest flip-flop of all: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 Samual 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."
Try the NIV translation, it's a little more clear:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sin is something painful for God to view, as it is a direct insult to him. As such, it would greive me too if the creatures that I held dear to me rebelled utterly. So, he destroyed them, all save for Noah, who walked with God. He's not changing his mind, he's expressing emotion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods." I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No human sacrifices, except for Jesus. So now God is an abomination to himself?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
"Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
The difference between burning your kids for your own sake and killing your self for the sake of others is huge. Jesus even says that he could easily stop his own crucifiction, but he doesn't. He wants to go through it for our sake.
John 10: 12-15:
12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.
I can't see myself participating in this thread much longer, lest you actually start paying attention to what I have to say and stop discrediting my words before I utter them.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't see myself participating in this thread much longer, lest you actually start paying attention to what I have to say and stop discrediting my words before I utter them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Frankly, I don't see the current line getting us anywhere either, plus I'm tired, so I'll stop. But, before I do, I will say that once again I find that my first posts in this thread are once again relevent. Why shouldn't I discredit your words? If I was argueing politics, I would do the same, as I expect you would as well, as I expect anyone with any experience in political discussion would. But, once again, the religious special case scenario has struck, rendering one side offended, and the other side looking like an insensitive, ignorant, a-hole(and although I would not say I have been nice, I am certainly not guilty of all that).
<span style='color:white'>Deleted the flameposts to keep the discussion readable.</span>
A little comment on the 'Jesus - Son of God and Man' thing: He always called Himself 'Son of Man' - this can however be explained by the fact that a person living in the Roman Empire and calling himself (a) gods son would've had the life expectancy of a housefly. Additionally, theological research has shown that he most probably was a son of man - the virgin birth is nowadays widely regarded to be a metaphor. I've read quite interesting articles after which this doesn't necessarily have to change a thing about His divinity: If you assume that a man managed to overcome the inherent sinfulness described in Romans 3:23, wouldn't that mean that he is not completely human anymore?
Comments
While I'm not darwinist myself (I believe that evolution does not progress steadily, but goes in short phases of evolutionary innovation and long phases of further perfection of those innovations, just to be followed by the next 'revolution'.), I'd like to point one of the oldest 'pro-darwinism' arguments on Earth out:
The Bible covers it.
Please put the scythes down for a bit, let me explain: If we assume for a moment that the Bible, or at least parts of the Bible, were influenced by God Himself, we've also got to assume that He would chose a way of telling the Genesis that would be at least remotely understandeable to the people of that time (a time, by the way, in which the majority still believed thunder to be holy rage).
Now, if you take a look at the Genesis and don't take it literally (which is always a dangerous thing to do when you're dealing with a book that's 2000 years old and has been translated multiple dozen times), you'll discover that the seven days of the creation of the world are pretty close to our todays scientific chronological timeline of the evolution (all animals that were known at the time are called in the right order etc.), although of course dramatically 'sped up', which makes sense because the people of that time had no imagination of the timescales in the evolution.
Keep in mind that the Bible was written for sheepherders and farmers, and you'll soon see that it doesn't contradict with the idea of an evolution.
As for the 'it all fits too well' argument, there have been some simulations made.
It is for example possible for an eye to develope out of a completely normal cell conglomerate within some thousand generations, of which each had a little advantage over the last one because their 'protoeye' was a little more sensitive to light than the older types.
This is of course no proof in the scientific sense, but it shows it is possible.
Also, I entirely disagree with the eye comment. Let's take what you're saying for granted. Let's say that my cells can mutate to form an eye.
For years, people have said that they would like three arms to do the work in their life. Seems simple enough - grow another arm! Hey, we made eyes! Why then don't we see another nub of flesh and bone sticking out of our torso, slowly evolving over the years to form another arm? Why do we all have only two eyes? And why are our eyes so insensitive to the dark, while our supposed 'evolutionary ancestors' have better eyesight? Why would we, in our evolution, actually <b>lose</b> skills? That makes no sense to me! While we are evolving, why aren't we killed out? Suddenly we can't see in the dark anymore.
Do you get what I'm saying? You have no proof to support your claims. Evolution is a scientific theory (or farce, in my opinion). As such, it is my opinion that you need <i>scientific proof</i> that such a theory is real. To this day, no solid tangible evidence has maintained validity supporting such a theory.
You might say the same about the Bible. The thing is, as a Believer, I don't need any proof. I have the Bible. I have faith God is real, and in my life at all times. I believe that I am different, and that I am changed, and that I am to seek out others who want to be changed as well. I know that there is a Heaven, and a Hell, and for those who don't believe in the gift of Jesus Christ, they are doomed to eternity in Hell. My life has a purpose. I'm not a chain in a link of mutations. I am a servant of God. He is my Master.
Some of you may shake your head sadly and think how strange and brainwashed I may sound. I would rather live my life thinking a Savior is there to greet me when I die, only to find out it's all untrue, than to live my life thinking I'm a descended from an animal, and that nothing awaits me after death. What a cold, lonely, sorrowful world so many live in.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look around you my freind. Why would God make nearly all of his creatures virtually identicall? Not even on the genetic level, where it is ludicrous how similar to the higher mammals we are, but in outward body shape. Every single quadraped has followed the same rules for limb structure, with very few differences(the most major of which amounts to a toe missing or extra).
Look at the fossil record. Why would God have created whole species that have died off, and new ones that have appeared, if he created the Earth in such a perfect manner as is befitting to a devine being?
It's not as iff the process of evolution is hard to see. Look at the common cold. It survives by evolution. It utilises normal mutations in it's genetic code(that happen millions of times, in a very short time) to overcome your bodie's defenses. Same with teh AIDS virus. Same with influensa. Influensa, by the way, being a species that no one had heard of until some 150 years ago(just as the AIDS had never been heard of 30 years ago), how did it magically appear? Was it God? I thought God stopped plagueing people a while ago.
Even with the more advanced creatures, humans, for example. If the human race started with only two people, how is that there is so much variation today? I'll tell you how, many thousands of years of living in a specific area, with a specific climate, specific food sources, and other eviromnental factors, the people have undergone the slow process of evolution, in fact, if humans had not developed ways of covering large distances very fast, it's a sure bet that they eventually would have undergone speciation.
No tangible evidence, huh? Just look beyond the limitations of your repressive faith in the completely unsupported(and frankly, kind of ignorant) religion, and see the natural process. See the way things work. You won't see God there, of that I am sure.
You're right there. To me, no argument for God is nescisary in my heart, because of the things I've seen Him do in my life. I debated about it for a long time before I became a Christian, but that point was about 5 years ago, and my beliefs from that moment on have nothing but strengthened.
I do, however, take offense to your comment of calling me full of myself and taking myself too seriously. For one, this is not just a belief, this is my life! My life, in more ways then one, revolves around the core beliefs of my creed. My friends, for the most part, are all Christians. My source of strength when everything else is gone is the Lord my God. The whole reason I have a life now, social or otherwise, is because at one point, a guy in my algebra class decided to invite me out to his Church. You have to understand, that at that time, I was a complete, utter loser. I liked pokemon cards, even! Nobody would really ever go out of their way to talk to me, to the point where my best and only friend stabbed me in the back by denying he had ever known me. That's the kind of life I led. I'm not an outgoing person, I'm really not. I've gotten better, but in the end I still have trouble actually going over and talking to people. So imagine walking into my friends church with him, and immediately being asked questions about what kind of things I did in my spare time, about what bands I liked, and about what kind of things I did in school? Imagine being cared about, not because I was popular, or rich or even cool, as was the requirement for having a social life in middle school, but because I had the distinct quality of being a human being. That's love right there, when someone who you don't even know gives a damn about what happens to you the next day. You call it common courtisy, I call it a miracle.
So, how can I take that too seriously?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I always find it better to attack the religion from inside itself, systematically disproving the beliefs at the core of the religion, and pointing out any contradiction within the religion itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, lets have me stop trying to disprove what you believe, and have you turn the barrel on Christianity.
Fire away.
Well, I don't know how to tell you this - but we all do. Let's take the 'easiest' case: The Ten Commandments.
Ten simple rules to orient your life after. Should be easy enough to follow that, right?
Wrong. The Commandments are listed twice in the Bible, and the fact alone that they don't follow the exactely same words means that they can contradict in some cases, even more, their usual interpretations vary from place to place:
Take the commandment we usually shorten up to 'Thou shalt not lie', for example - read closely, it simply states that one shall not state false facts against another human - any historican will tell you that this is obviously aimed towards the Hebrew layman trials.
When reading closely, you'll soon see that many different books in the Bible contradict each other in that they display different opinions about theological questions; just take the four Evangelists, which can't even seem to find a consensus about Jesus' last words.
Also, I did not assume the people of the time the Bible was written in were dumb, I just say that they weren't scientifically advanced enough to fully understand the concepts of a creation throughout the course of multiple billion years.
What I described has nothing to do with 'dumbing down' His word, it is much more comparable to the kind of 'shortened' explanations we are thaught in school:
If you try to tell some physics beginner about the backgrounds of Einsteins theories right away, he won't understand a thing, simply because he has nothing to orient on. So you teach him a simplified explanation first, wait until that one has sunken in, and then start getting more complicated. You tell him the truth "a little at a time", to use your words, and by that, they can understand it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For years, people have said that they would like three arms to do the work in their life. Seems simple enough - grow another arm! Hey, we made eyes!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my comment again - the key word is 'simulation'.
I already admitted that it wasn't a real scientific prove for the evolution, but only for its possibility - a prove that the creationist theory lacks by definition.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You might say the same about the Bible. The thing is, as a Believer, I don't need any proof. I have the Bible. I have faith God is real, and in my life at all times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said I don't have that faith, too? I just believe that there is a difference between faith and questionless following.
Apparently, rather easily. Mistaking a group of nice people for a worship worthy religion is what I call "taking something to seriously".
Alright, lemme tell you a little story. I live in NH, and in this part of teh country, the christians are not exaclty "friendly". The mere fact that a religious body can change so much in personality would lead to the logical conclusion that there is, in fact, no "loving God" acting on it, and that it's all cultural. And I've been to more churches tan ones in my area that have been unfreindly. One situation in particular comes to mind, when my church was travelling cross-country as a group, we were almost laughed out of a church in Oklahoma. Once again, no love there.
I'm sorry if you were a loser, but you're not the only one. Myself comes to mind. Biggest nerd you'd ever wanna see, and not a social nerd either, so I don't hang out with other nerds(playin D&D, or warhammer, or whatever). Needless to say, this has not exactly been benificiary to me in the popularity(or, indeed, the hatred-for-no-reason-by-random-people) department, but I also found a social group that excepts me and cares about me, but in may case, it came in the form of(if we MUST classify by religion here)wiccans. They(and certain punks, but very few) were the only ones that would even be seen with me, and to them I hold as much respect and love as to anyone, but does that mean that their religion is correct?
You would obviously say no, even if I have as much reason for believing in it as you have for believing in yours.
The church in general as an establishment, at least in most cases I'm aware of, promotes unity, acceptance, tolerance, and overall "niceness" (couldn't think of another way to put it). Its social conditioning that caused the given circumstances in my opinion.
As nemesis zero said, I have no problem with anyone having faith at all, people need to have faith in something to accomplish anything. I just have a problem with people having blinding unquestioning faith due to what they were raised into, or lack of individuality, or attaching onto the first good thing that comes along in their lives, "life got better when I found x religion, x religion must be right!"
An intellegent discussion about religion, spouted off with an equation and a bong emoticon. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is there even a thing called hell (for me) if I do not believe in it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there gravity, if I don't believe in it? Does my lack of acknowledgment of a fact make it any less true? If I will away the sun, will it cease to rise the next morning? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
heaven is not a fact, it is an idea.
But we can't PROVE it!
Therefore it could exist, same with gravity, (This is my opinion BTW) We can't prove it. We can prove it's effects but theres nothing to say I may drop something and it will hang in mid-air.
(But then again I do Biology, what would I know about Physics)
Oh, and I'm sorry that you had as rough a social life as I had, and I'm glad you're finally accepted now. However, although the people are the ones that brought me out to the group, it was the message, not their attitude that kept me coming for the teaching, and eventually accepting Christ. Had it been something I could not relate to, something I could not belive in, the outcome would not have been the same, I assure you.
This has been a very interesting and polite discussion up till now. Please don't slip into accusations.
Sorry though, that was a little mean spirited. I'll cool off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even with the more advanced creatures, humans, for example. If the human race started with only two people, how is that there is so much variation today? I'll tell you how, many thousands of years of living in a specific area, with a specific climate, specific food sources, and other eviromnental factors, the people have undergone the slow process of evolution, in fact, if humans had not developed ways of covering large distances very fast, it's a sure bet that they eventually would have undergone speciation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that evolution doesn't exist at all. In fact, I find it perfectly plausable that species adapt themselves over time. However, I simply do not see it a plausable way of bringing about all life on Earth, by it's own, with out any sort of "God" Figure as an infulence.
Keep your pants on, no one said it would happen in one post. The whole point of that origional post was to say that I find it is better to attack a religious defense slowly, point by point. Which is, in case you havn't been reading my posts, what I have been trying to do. I have tried to stay away from the generalised argument of "There is no God, and that's that." Which is what I was commenting on in my origional post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and I'm sorry that you had as rough a social life as I had, and I'm glad you're finally accepted now. However, although the people are the ones that brought me out to the group, it was the message, not their attitude that kept me coming for the teaching, and eventually accepting Christ. Had it been something I could not relate to, something I could not belive in, the outcome would not have been the same, I assure you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What can I say? If my church was that friendly, then I'd probably like it there. But, it ain't, so I don't.
The bible has contradictions. It has things in it I do not agree with. It has been translated by man. It was written by man.
<b><u>Point:</b></u>
<b>-</b> If you assume that man messed up the message by translating it and putting it into his own words, then you have an imperfect guide to life. Why base your existance off that?
<b>-</b> If you assume that the bible is divinely inspired and holds the true word of god, and you find contradictions and things in it that you do not agree with; why base your life off of that? You can't relate to it so don't force feed yourself.
P.S. Since when has Jesus *been* God, don't most Christian sects believe him to be a divine messanger/avatar?
However, perhaps I'm not the best person to talk to about that. I found a well-written article on it on my church's web site.
<a href='http://www.xenos.org/ct_outln/lk3-38.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.xenos.org/ct_outln/lk3-38.htm</a>
Ahh yes, it's called Genetic Programming, and I'm hoping to make a career out of it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
As I said, or at least thought about saying (Damn horrible memory), I don't discredit small scale, micro-evolution, because that works. I simply find it hard to believe that the entire world aroud us evolved from nothing without any outside infulence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
P.S. Since when has Jesus *been* God, don't most Christian sects believe him to be a divine messanger/avatar?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I'm pretty sure that nearly all of them believe that He was and is God (Enter the Trinity. He was God, but so is the father in heaven, and the holy spirit) . Main reason is that if you believe that he was just a man, then there comes the nasty little problem of sin, because, since "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god -Romans 3:23", if Jesus was just a man, then his sacrifice means nothing, because something imperfect cannot take on the burden of other important things. The basis for you being saved, at least at the church I go to, was that Jesus was God, and that he voluntarily gave up his perfect life in order to spare countless billions judgement.
EDIT: Sorry for the stream of posts, BTW, I'm just bored.
Jesus was not "related to" David. He was "descended from" David(Timothy 2:8). But yet, he wasn't, if you are to believe in teh virgin birth.
BTW, I got another one for ya! Matthew 27:5, Acts 1:16-18.
How can Judas die twice?
I just found this one, and it's pretty intersesting. Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." The son of man should repent, huh? How many times does Mark(let alone anyone else) refer to Jesus specifically as the "Son Of Man"? A bunch I'd wager.
I use the term "get off" in a general sense.
All the time, if you believe in him:
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
[QUOTE]If humans killed God when he came to Earth, why would he decide to absolve them of sin? [/QUOTE]
Love.
John 3:16 <span style='color:red'>"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."</span>
As for the Judas one.
<!--QuoteBegin--NIV Study notes for Acts 1:18]
Judas bought a field indirectly: The money he returned to the preists was used to purchase the potter's field. Mt 27:5 reported that when the body finally fell, either because of decay or because someone cut it down, it was in a decomposed condition and so broke open at the middle. Another possibility is that "hanged" in Mt 27:5 means "impaled" and that the gruesome results of Judas' suicide are described here.[/QUOTE]
So yeah, I think that explains things pretty well. It's things like this that make me want to learn Greek, and it's things like Spanish class that convince me otherwise <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the Mary/Joseph relation thing, read the link. If it still doesn't clear things up, I'll argue the point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um.....no? All that shows me is that the christian church is good at making bad excuses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does one "obtain" a field with money you gave away?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the Mary/Joseph relation thing, read the link. If it still doesn't clear things up, I'll argue the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What link?
And I had to take this chance to point out some scripture that you probably know, being that it's the major sticking point between Catholics and Prodestants.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we're not saved by works, but only by faith(key word NOT)?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:17 "He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This not only contradicts the earlier statements, but also shows how Jesus separates himself from God, thus taking himself out of any "holy trinity".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we're not saved by works, but only by faith(key word ONLY)?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:17 "He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This not only contradicts the earlier statements, but also shows how Jesus separates himself from God, thus taking himself out of any "holy trinity". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So yeah, I think that explains things pretty well. It's things like this that make me want to learn Greek, and it's things like Spanish class that convince me otherwise
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um.....no? All that shows me is that the christian church is good at making bad excuses.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it's possible that that excuse fits into all appropriate contexts, then is it an excuse, or the truth taken from the context of the information given?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does one "obtain" a field with money you gave away?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indirectly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the Mary/Joseph relation thing, read the link. If it still doesn't clear things up, I'll argue the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What link?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.xenos.org/ct_outln/lk3-38.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.xenos.org/ct_outln/lk3-38.htm</a>
Of course, that's probably just a bad excuse too, right?
James 2:18:
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
In other words, once it's in context, it says to follow through on what you say. You are saved by faith. Your faith is made apparent and obvious, and justified to those around you by your deeds.
<a href='http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/james/dennis/jam2-2.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/james/de...nnis/jam2-2.htm</a>
Matthew 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
IN other words:
All good is derived from God, the only one that is truely good.
All through the New Testement, the idea of salvation as a free gift is abundant. Therefore, if we are to discern the meaning of this passage, with the assumption that it is true, it must agree with the other statements made. The derived meaning <b>must</b> agree with the direct meanings.
Thus, this statement cannot say that you have to be good, or do things to get to heaven. So, "entering life" could, and has to be, used as a strengthening aspect to faith, not a replacement for it.
If you go to transelate this with the assumption that it is false, you'll "prove" it in numerous places. However, if you take the numerous direct statements, and use them as guidelines to interpret the other meanings, then it all works. It's the art of interpretation: You have to take the direct statements as true, and your derived meanings must follow them.
Acts 1:18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out.
How does one "obtain" a field with money you gave away?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indirectly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And dead, I forgot to say that it was obtained while he was dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course, that's probably just a bad excuse too, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well looks like you got me there, it looks like Jesus' geneology works out perfecty(if the geneology is not a complete lie, that is[and knowing God, I wouldn't put it past him])
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/james/de...nnis/jam2-2.htm<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think I'm gonna DL realplayer? Pshhhh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, once it's in context, it says to follow through on what you say. You are saved by faith. Your faith is made apparent and obvious, and justified to those around you by your deeds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, key word: NOT. Paul discludes works, he doesn't say that faith is the main part, or that faith leading to works saves you. He says that ONLY faith saves you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thus, this statement cannot say that you have to be good, or do things to get to heaven. So, "entering life" could, and has to be, used as a strengthening aspect to faith, not a replacement for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this guy asks a question, and Jesus just kind of doesn't answer it? Because the asker asked for "eternal life" and if "enter life" does not refer to eternall life, then this guy=screwed.
Heres a big one that I thought was interesting:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In laymans: God don't flip-flop on teh issues, nor does he ever repent, but:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, most interestingly, the biggest flip-flop of all:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."
I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No human sacrifices, except for Jesus. So now God is an abomination to himself?
Well looks like you got me there, it looks like Jesus' geneology works out perfecty(if the geneology is not a complete lie, that is[and knowing God, I wouldn't put it past him])
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/james/de...nnis/jam2-2.htm<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think I'm gonna DL realplayer? Pshhhh.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm never going to win with you, am I? Not because I can't come up with the arguements, but because you're so predjudiced agaist religion in general that anything I say will fall on deaf ears.
This may or may not be my last post in this thread. I think I've been pretty tolerant for, what, 3-4 pages... but you call God a liar, and it rubs me the wrong way. NO, not "I can't bring myself to believe this", not "I don't think this is right," you come out and call it wrong, flat out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, once it's in context, it says to follow through on what you say. You are saved by faith. Your faith is made apparent and obvious, and justified to those around you by your deeds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, key word: NOT. Paul discludes works, he doesn't say that faith is the main part, or that faith leading to works saves you. He says that ONLY faith saves you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thus, this statement cannot say that you have to be good, or do things to get to heaven. So, "entering life" could, and has to be, used as a strengthening aspect to faith, not a replacement for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So this guy asks a question, and Jesus just kind of doesn't answer it? Because the asker asked for "eternal life" and if "enter life" does not refer to eternall life, then this guy=screwed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For one, check out the teaching link I posted. Yes, I despise Realplayer, but bear with it for a little bit. Secondly, put it in context please.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
This man had no faith. The act of selling your possessions is more symbolic then anything else. If you are unwilling to lose material posessions, then how likely are you to humble yourself and ask for forgiveness? Don't be afraid to take a step of faith. In your case, that would include not automatically judging everything I say as automatically wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heres a big one that I thought was interesting:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In laymans: God don't flip-flop on teh issues, nor does he ever repent, but:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, most interestingly, the biggest flip-flop of all:
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 Samual 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."
Try the NIV translation, it's a little more clear:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sin is something painful for God to view, as it is a direct insult to him. As such, it would greive me too if the creatures that I held dear to me rebelled utterly. So, he destroyed them, all save for Noah, who walked with God. He's not changing his mind, he's expressing emotion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."
I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No human sacrifices, except for Jesus. So now God is an abomination to himself?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
"Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
The difference between burning your kids for your own sake and killing your self for the sake of others is huge. Jesus even says that he could easily stop his own crucifiction, but he doesn't. He wants to go through it for our sake.
John 10: 12-15:
12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.
I can't see myself participating in this thread much longer, lest you actually start paying attention to what I have to say and stop discrediting my words before I utter them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly, I don't see the current line getting us anywhere either, plus I'm tired, so I'll stop. But, before I do, I will say that once again I find that my first posts in this thread are once again relevent.
Why shouldn't I discredit your words? If I was argueing politics, I would do the same, as I expect you would as well, as I expect anyone with any experience in political discussion would. But, once again, the religious special case scenario has struck, rendering one side offended, and the other side looking like an insensitive, ignorant, a-hole(and although I would not say I have been nice, I am certainly not guilty of all that).
I'm done.
<img src='http://users.frailart.net/killymagee/makeitstop.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
A little comment on the 'Jesus - Son of God and Man' thing:
He always called Himself 'Son of Man' - this can however be explained by the fact that a person living in the Roman Empire and calling himself (a) gods son would've had the life expectancy of a housefly.
Additionally, theological research has shown that he most probably was a son of man - the virgin birth is nowadays widely regarded to be a metaphor.
I've read quite interesting articles after which this doesn't necessarily have to change a thing about His divinity:
If you assume that a man managed to overcome the inherent sinfulness described in Romans 3:23, wouldn't that mean that he is not completely human anymore?