Play as commander in several non-newbie evenly matched games and tell me that its overpowered or underpriced. at 150rs, no one would EVER get it. Right now its just expensive and un-usefull enough to not be the definate upgrade to get first all the time. Yet cheap enough to make it viable.
to all the people moaning about a lack of a counter to motion tracking...
Perhaps you realized that the aliens' upgrade chambers are still being worked on? Who knows? Maybe the Sensory Chambers will put out a Siege-cannon-sized field that Nulls motion tracking? Maybe Motion tracking HAS to stay in the game to prevent cheaters from utilizing something everyone else can't see (aliens through 15 walls).
I like it the way it is. Motion tracking is best early-game, when you have highly mobile aliens like skulks and gorges. Yes, it will also tell you where Fades and Onos are, but those aliens don't often wait in ambush for you but instead attack head-on without much surprise.
If they upped the cost to 60, that might be acceptable. Otherwise, the observatory should stay as it is. Requiring multiple observatories or relay nodes or any more tech for the marines to build to get this kind of functionality would be suicide. Forward bases already cost enough with the TF, adequate turret coverage, likely a res node, phase gate and perhaps siege.
Motion Tracking is useless when compared against what you can get for less.
Oooh, I can see a Skulk is coming, let me try and shoot him.
Where as with the same amount of money *what is it 35 for the Obs Tower?* MT Costs a nice 45-50 RP's, with that same amount, you could get an Arms Lab, and for whatever the Obs Tower costs, an Armor Upgrade allowing you to survive not 2 but 3 Skulk Bites. Although, that's for a more aggresive style of play. But that's just it. Marine's don't win by camping out, they normally have to be aggresive, once they have 2 hives locked down things arn't quite so hectic, but Motion Tracking is 45 Resources poorly spent, ecspecially when it's rushed to.
And yes, Level 1 Armor > Level 1 Weapon, why, because of that Extra Skulk Bite, we are talking life and death
Edit:
What I would like to see is an upgrade for Sensory Chambers that disables the ability of Scan's and Motion Tracking, like give a reason to get Sensory instead of Defense, I don't know what you could call it, but take out like "Enhanced Sight" or something and put in an upgradeable skill that would make you hidden to all Scanners, both Motion Tracking _and_ even a Scan in an area, combine that with Silence from a Movement Chamber and _maybe_ we wouldn't have to get Carapace, since at least then the Marine's wouldn't always know where we were if we tried to lay an ambush
The only overpowerd thing about MT is the view it gives the com.
Basically when you've locked down two hives and get MT you can have all your boys next to a phase gate and then the second you see any kind of organized attack you can have the marines in position, orientated and ready to kickarse BEFOR the aliens arrive, this really ruins the aliens day.
As for it being overpowerd the counter is carapice, if you're not hitting the marines as they move out with several skulks together they'll reach the empty hives and grab them, as any sane commander can only just about afford to get MT and 1 hive in the time it takes you to get your 2nd hive MT will probably only come into play as your hive comes up, hold them off for a little more time and you'll get fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--Speed 2 Dave+Jan 15 2003, 11:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speed 2 Dave @ Jan 15 2003, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe Motion tracking HAS to stay in the game to prevent cheaters from utilizing something everyone else can't see (aliens through 15 walls).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is just a dreadful argument. It doesn't matter what's being discussed - Adding something to the game just because a cheater might be able to get access to it otherwise is horrible, horrible reasoning.
Do you think the game would play better if all aiming was automatic, you could set your run speed at whatever you wanted and change class model at will?
Those cheaters would certainly be gutted though wouldn't they!
Disclaimer: I have no problems with the current form of MT
TeoH: I read that off of the Natural Selections web-page somewhere. It was hinted that things like the alien hive sight and marine motion tracking "wall-hack" would prevent cheaters from gaining an unfair advantage (as everyone had these abilities anyways).... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm not just moaning, the devs put it in for a reason.
Motion tracking tracks MOTION. Being invisible wouldn't change that.
Ppersonally, I think the marines need MORE stuff to balance out the game.....but it would be fun as a marine to get a motion tracker like the movie "Aliens" used. It would make the game alot more creepy.
I have never considered motion tracking to be overpowered. Helpful, certainly, but most situations where I'm fighting fall into the categories of:
One or two Skulks coming my way, I hear them and figure out where they're coming from. One or two Fades coming my way, I definitely know they're there, and they don't care that I know. Skulk is waiting in ambush, but I always look for ambush spots whenever walking through doors or into a room. Rarely do they catch me by surprise.
In none of those would motion tracking give me any great edge. Save me some of the work of listening for alien movement in a noisy area, but definitely isn't worth more resources than it presently is, nor worth clogging up forward bases with yet more structures.
Hmm... One missing piece in the logical arguments presented here...
Just because you need Obs spaced throughout the map to get full motion tracking (By some of the suggestions posted here) doesn't mean you have to build an entire base around them... You could always hide one in a dark corner (Some spots in the triad array on eclipse come to mind), since it's rather small...
Hey, I just got an idea... How about the observatory stays as-is, price-wise... It gives motion tracking in a siege-like radius... Then to extend that radius, you can make more observatories, OR:
- New Building - Sensor Relay - Cost: 5-10 RU - Model: Very small, maybe the size/shape of an undeployed Obs - Build Time: Short, 5-10 seconds - HP: Very low... Not sure about numbers, but a skulk should take less than 10 bites to kill it... - Build Restrictions: Need an Obs first, but can build anywhere. - Abilities: Motion-tracks aliens within a siege-like radius, maybe more. Only functions if the marines have at least one active observatory.
I'm thinking this is the kind of building you drop in a dark corner or behind a beam or in a vent somewhere... Try to balance out the costs so that covering most of the map with these is comparable to the current MT cost...
I like the idea of having towers with a certain tracking range best. That would help defend an area, but not show you everything.
Also the hive sight only works if someone is parasited, or they are near a sensory chamber, (which alot of times you don't even have without a thrid hive) so all of a sudden with the lack of a commander that can look at the map and listen and do sensor sweeps, the aliens are at a disadvantage.
As far as someone saying that sound is all that is needed, the aliens can take silence as an enhancement, but why bother if they can see ya anyways.
I def. think that motion tracking should be toned down some, even if it was made more like the aliens, where you have to tag something to see it...
"Motion tracking should be toned down because I can't run around the map with parasites and hivesight telling me where they are without being shot"
Like whats-his-name said, you can HEAR them coming. Thats not the hard part. Killing them is. Its only truely usefull for the commander, especially now that scans cost 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--Chron+Jan 16 2003, 10:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chron @ Jan 16 2003, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Motion tracking should be toned down because I can't run around the map with parasites and hivesight telling me where they are without being shot"
Like whats-his-name said, you can HEAR them coming. Thats not the hard part. Killing them is. Its only truely usefull for the commander, especially now that scans cost 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope that wasn't in responce to me... because if it was, you misquoted me, and you didn't really say anything at all to add to the conversation. (or maybe you have only played on linux servers where it doesn't work properly.)
If your parasited, you encountered an alien that taged you, and they prob. died in the process. If you die, they no longer see you, problem solved. With motion tracking, there isn't any way to avoid it and still move around the map.
Yes you can hear someone around a corner, but can you hear them 3 rooms away? No you can't, but with motion tracking you can see where they are 3 rooms away... As far as it only being good for commanders, what are you talking about. Its works like a Counter-Strike wall hack pretty much. You know exactly where the enemy is before they can see you. You can hear them in CS as well, but if your using a wall hack, you have a huge advantage. Its the same thing in NS, except the wall hack is part of the game.
I, and others think that it should be toned down some for the marines team so that its closer to the aliens limits with their hivesight. Maybe the developers will agree, and maybe not who knows.
Any changes to motion tracking would require that Flayra and the devs invest a good portion of time to create such changes. Unless you can point to some specific proof that motion tracking gives an unfair edge to the marines, they're not going to do it. And 'I think it's overpowered' is not proof. That's an opinion. Show some hard numbers. Show a game where marines used motion tracking to somehow outmaneuver the alien team.
Using a little blue circle (that cost seventy resources) to shoot a Skulk is not overpowered. The Skulk cost nothing and will respawn in eight seconds; I expect that the aliens might manage to recover from the staggering loss. Find an example where motion tracking lead to the killing of three Fades and an Onos, then we'll talk.
I disagree. A fade that has cloaking is almost usless when it trys to run and hide when going up against marines with HA and HMGs. Not much sense in even using cloaking at that point unless you plan on camping and not helping your team.
A fade is a hit and run unit, if it goes to attack, and is in over its head and it tries to get away but can't as they see where you are even after you cloak, there is 44 points wasted. (that will be more in 1.04) So true, no big deal to lose a skulk, but no more trying to sneak around the map for the aliens, where the marines can still be sneaky as long as they arn't parasited or by a sensory chamber.
<!--QuoteBegin--Chron+Jan 16 2003, 10:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chron @ Jan 16 2003, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It wasn't a direct quote, it was a sarcastic made-up quote that sounds an aweful lot like the kind of thing you guys are saying.
It sounds like everyone whos in FAVOR of major MT nerfs are heavy alien players, or haven't played very much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ah, ok.
Your right, I do favore Aliens, but only because I got used to playing them because everyone seems to join the marines and its hard to get on that team.
I also play marines, and I play mostly on a linux server where it doesn't work right anyways. I have played on windows servers as well, and as marine, its great, as alien, it sucks.
Just an opinion, but I personally feel that the motion tracking should be closer to that of the aliens, where its not the entire map, but just where there are either sensors, or where an alien has been tagged like the parasite.
A Fade whose idea of getting away is running around a corner and cloaking deserves to eat hot leaden death. Any half-decent marine dealing with cloaked aliens will be sure to shoot at corners and watch for the green spray of love when walking by.
Good Fades use blink to cover half the map in ten seconds, there's nothing that can catch a blinking Fade. Only downside is the tendancy to get stuck in certain maps, but most of that can be circumvented if you're careful about where you're aiming when blinking. And hopefully 1.1 will fix that problem entirely. I really, really hope.
Well, no one will probably really read this and think about it, but here is my idea for toned-down motion tracking anyway: Once motion tracking is researched (from the obs, maybe with the price reduced to 25 or 15), the commander can drop "motion sensors" that cost maybe 5-10 res. and that marines can pick up and equip instead of the pistol. This sensor would scan for a limited range (maybe the range of a siege or less), and maybe even have a maximum scanning angle (to allow for those ambushes from behind), and the marine would have to be actually holding the scanner (instead of his main weapon) for it to be active. This would both make motion tracking less cheap and encourage teamwork, as the scanner marine by himself would be easy lunch, since he is basically unarmed while scanning, but would still allow marines to use motion tracking in attacks.
I still don't see the need for a 'hand-held' motion tracker. Any piece of handheld view equipment like that would inevitably be BUILT into the Marine's HUD...as you see Motion Tracking now.
Same with putting blips on the minimap...really, they should be in BOTH places; but I'd assume it'd be too powerful to see them coming AND know what room they're in.
That's the thing...Marines are ALREADY using an artificial view overlay. Any super-important information is (or, should be) presented to them in their existing HUD. That only makes sense.
I like the idea of the small, cheap, quick-to-build "visibility stations" for Observatories, though...those would be neat. Make them small, about the size of a mine...but, they beep or somesuch. Every few seconds all of them let out a quiet beep or something like that.
I have played both sides of motion tracking and I can most definately say that I find it overpowered. I cant speak for others, but I find that the range is far too much and the price too cheap, and it syas up even if all obs are destroyed, I find that to be a very overpowering thing. So, maybe a slight nerf in that, it only tracks in a certain radii around the marine, so he cant see that alien 4 rooms away.
As for people not using a wallhack because theres motion tracking, you certianly have a lot of faith in cheaters. Im damn sure that if they can, they will use a wallhack, WITH motion tracking, so that they can simply say that it was motion tracking (Instant alibi), why use a wallhack, so they can avoid Walls of lame, camping aliens, and get away with it (I actually camped outside a secured hive in wait, was there for about 2 minutes (Yeah yeah i know, but we lost 2 hives and were waiting for the inevitable) When I hear a marine phase in, then come clompig towards my hidey hole, jumps out and starts shooting me when im in view (he was already trained on me, and I hadnt moved for over a minute, certianly not since he phased in) Some people will still use a wallhack simply because it will still give them an advantage (even with motion tracking they can still see stationary targets)
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
edited January 2003
dudes, why not just make it a total rip of aliens? limited range, but youd have the cool radar like panel at the bottom (or top) Once again make the dots dissapear instantly, of course. Dont make it it replaces anything, you just get it as soon as it is researched. It wouldnt be as cheap also because you just know they are in the general area. its a hell of a lot easier to fire at a circle in 3d than figuring out where someone is from top view, since it cant see walls. Visibility stations is a good idea, and to make them still useful, they would appear in 3d instead of on your tracker
Comments
Play as commander in several non-newbie evenly matched games and tell me that its overpowered or underpriced. at 150rs, no one would EVER get it.
Right now its just expensive and un-usefull enough to not be the definate upgrade to get first all the time. Yet cheap enough to make it viable.
Say a range just outside of a sentry turret or something.
Perhaps you realized that the aliens' upgrade chambers are still being worked on? Who knows? Maybe the Sensory Chambers will put out a Siege-cannon-sized field that Nulls motion tracking? Maybe Motion tracking HAS to stay in the game to prevent cheaters from utilizing something everyone else can't see (aliens through 15 walls).
*shrug*
If they upped the cost to 60, that might be acceptable. Otherwise, the observatory should stay as it is. Requiring multiple observatories or relay nodes or any more tech for the marines to build to get this kind of functionality would be suicide. Forward bases already cost enough with the TF, adequate turret coverage, likely a res node, phase gate and perhaps siege.
Motion Tracking is useless when compared against what you can get for less.
Oooh, I can see a Skulk is coming, let me try and shoot him.
Where as with the same amount of money *what is it 35 for the Obs Tower?* MT Costs a nice 45-50 RP's, with that same amount, you could get an Arms Lab, and for whatever the Obs Tower costs, an Armor Upgrade allowing you to survive not 2 but 3 Skulk Bites. Although, that's for a more aggresive style of play. But that's just it. Marine's don't win by camping out, they normally have to be aggresive, once they have 2 hives locked down things arn't quite so hectic, but Motion Tracking is 45 Resources poorly spent, ecspecially when it's rushed to.
And yes, Level 1 Armor > Level 1 Weapon, why, because of that Extra Skulk Bite, we are talking life and death
Edit:
What I would like to see is an upgrade for Sensory Chambers that disables the ability of Scan's and Motion Tracking, like give a reason to get Sensory instead of Defense, I don't know what you could call it, but take out like "Enhanced Sight" or something and put in an upgradeable skill that would make you hidden to all Scanners, both Motion Tracking _and_ even a Scan in an area, combine that with Silence from a Movement Chamber and _maybe_ we wouldn't have to get Carapace, since at least then the Marine's wouldn't always know where we were if we tried to lay an ambush
Basically when you've locked down two hives and get MT you can have all your boys next to a phase gate and then the second you see any kind of organized attack you can have the marines in position, orientated and ready to kickarse BEFOR the aliens arrive, this really ruins the aliens day.
As for it being overpowerd the counter is carapice, if you're not hitting the marines as they move out with several skulks together they'll reach the empty hives and grab them, as any sane commander can only just about afford to get MT and 1 hive in the time it takes you to get your 2nd hive MT will probably only come into play as your hive comes up, hold them off for a little more time and you'll get fades.
BlueGhost
That is just a dreadful argument. It doesn't matter what's being discussed - Adding something to the game just because a cheater might be able to get access to it otherwise is horrible, horrible reasoning.
Do you think the game would play better if all aiming was automatic, you could set your run speed at whatever you wanted and change class model at will?
Those cheaters would certainly be gutted though wouldn't they!
Disclaimer: I have no problems with the current form of MT
Ppersonally, I think the marines need MORE stuff to balance out the game.....but it would be fun as a marine to get a motion tracker like the movie "Aliens" used. It would make the game alot more creepy.
One or two Skulks coming my way, I hear them and figure out where they're coming from.
One or two Fades coming my way, I definitely know they're there, and they don't care that I know.
Skulk is waiting in ambush, but I always look for ambush spots whenever walking through doors or into a room. Rarely do they catch me by surprise.
In none of those would motion tracking give me any great edge. Save me some of the work of listening for alien movement in a noisy area, but definitely isn't worth more resources than it presently is, nor worth clogging up forward bases with yet more structures.
Just because you need Obs spaced throughout the map to get full motion tracking (By some of the suggestions posted here) doesn't mean you have to build an entire base around them... You could always hide one in a dark corner (Some spots in the triad array on eclipse come to mind), since it's rather small...
Hey, I just got an idea... How about the observatory stays as-is, price-wise... It gives motion tracking in a siege-like radius... Then to extend that radius, you can make more observatories, OR:
- New Building - Sensor Relay
- Cost: 5-10 RU
- Model: Very small, maybe the size/shape of an undeployed Obs
- Build Time: Short, 5-10 seconds
- HP: Very low... Not sure about numbers, but a skulk should take less than 10 bites to kill it...
- Build Restrictions: Need an Obs first, but can build anywhere.
- Abilities: Motion-tracks aliens within a siege-like radius, maybe more. Only functions if the marines have at least one active observatory.
I'm thinking this is the kind of building you drop in a dark corner or behind a beam or in a vent somewhere... Try to balance out the costs so that covering most of the map with these is comparable to the current MT cost...
Ok, that's my two cents...
Ready?
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>DON'T MOVE</span>
Skulks work best when they lie in wait for an unsuspecting marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahahahah
played <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also the hive sight only works if someone is parasited, or they are near a sensory chamber, (which alot of times you don't even have without a thrid hive) so all of a sudden with the lack of a commander that can look at the map and listen and do sensor sweeps, the aliens are at a disadvantage.
As far as someone saying that sound is all that is needed, the aliens can take silence as an enhancement, but why bother if they can see ya anyways.
I def. think that motion tracking should be toned down some, even if it was made more like the aliens, where you have to tag something to see it...
Like whats-his-name said, you can HEAR them coming. Thats not the hard part. Killing them is. Its only truely usefull for the commander, especially now that scans cost 3.
Like whats-his-name said, you can HEAR them coming. Thats not the hard part. Killing them is. Its only truely usefull for the commander, especially now that scans cost 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope that wasn't in responce to me... because if it was, you misquoted me, and you didn't really say anything at all to add to the conversation. (or maybe you have only played on linux servers where it doesn't work properly.)
If your parasited, you encountered an alien that taged you, and they prob. died in the process. If you die, they no longer see you, problem solved.
With motion tracking, there isn't any way to avoid it and still move around the map.
Yes you can hear someone around a corner, but can you hear them 3 rooms away? No you can't, but with motion tracking you can see where they are 3 rooms away...
As far as it only being good for commanders, what are you talking about. Its works like a Counter-Strike wall hack pretty much. You know exactly where the enemy is before they can see you. You can hear them in CS as well, but if your using a wall hack, you have a huge advantage. Its the same thing in NS, except the wall hack is part of the game.
I, and others think that it should be toned down some for the marines team so that its closer to the aliens limits with their hivesight. Maybe the developers will agree, and maybe not who knows.
Using a little blue circle (that cost seventy resources) to shoot a Skulk is not overpowered. The Skulk cost nothing and will respawn in eight seconds; I expect that the aliens might manage to recover from the staggering loss. Find an example where motion tracking lead to the killing of three Fades and an Onos, then we'll talk.
It sounds like everyone whos in FAVOR of major MT nerfs are heavy alien players, or haven't played very much.
A fade is a hit and run unit, if it goes to attack, and is in over its head and it tries to get away but can't as they see where you are even after you cloak, there is 44 points wasted. (that will be more in 1.04) So true, no big deal to lose a skulk, but no more trying to sneak around the map for the aliens, where the marines can still be sneaky as long as they arn't parasited or by a sensory chamber.
It sounds like everyone whos in FAVOR of major MT nerfs are heavy alien players, or haven't played very much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah, ok.
Your right, I do favore Aliens, but only because I got used to playing them because everyone seems to join the marines and its hard to get on that team.
I also play marines, and I play mostly on a linux server where it doesn't work right anyways. I have played on windows servers as well, and as marine, its great, as alien, it sucks.
Just an opinion, but I personally feel that the motion tracking should be closer to that of the aliens, where its not the entire map, but just where there are either sensors, or where an alien has been tagged like the parasite.
Good Fades use blink to cover half the map in ten seconds, there's nothing that can catch a blinking Fade. Only downside is the tendancy to get stuck in certain maps, but most of that can be circumvented if you're careful about where you're aiming when blinking. And hopefully 1.1 will fix that problem entirely. I really, really hope.
Once motion tracking is researched (from the obs, maybe with the price reduced to 25 or 15), the commander can drop "motion sensors" that cost maybe 5-10 res. and that marines can pick up and equip instead of the pistol. This sensor would scan for a limited range (maybe the range of a siege or less), and maybe even have a maximum scanning angle (to allow for those ambushes from behind), and the marine would have to be actually holding the scanner (instead of his main weapon) for it to be active. This would both make motion tracking less cheap and encourage teamwork, as the scanner marine by himself would be easy lunch, since he is basically unarmed while scanning, but would still allow marines to use motion tracking in attacks.
Eater.
Same with putting blips on the minimap...really, they should be in BOTH places; but I'd assume it'd be too powerful to see them coming AND know what room they're in.
That's the thing...Marines are ALREADY using an artificial view overlay. Any super-important information is (or, should be) presented to them in their existing HUD. That only makes sense.
I like the idea of the small, cheap, quick-to-build "visibility stations" for Observatories, though...those would be neat. Make them small, about the size of a mine...but, they beep or somesuch. Every few seconds all of them let out a quiet beep or something like that.
As for people not using a wallhack because theres motion tracking, you certianly have a lot of faith in cheaters. Im damn sure that if they can, they will use a wallhack, WITH motion tracking, so that they can simply say that it was motion tracking (Instant alibi), why use a wallhack, so they can avoid Walls of lame, camping aliens, and get away with it (I actually camped outside a secured hive in wait, was there for about 2 minutes (Yeah yeah i know, but we lost 2 hives and were waiting for the inevitable) When I hear a marine phase in, then come clompig towards my hidey hole, jumps out and starts shooting me when im in view (he was already trained on me, and I hadnt moved for over a minute, certianly not since he phased in) Some people will still use a wallhack simply because it will still give them an advantage (even with motion tracking they can still see stationary targets)
Visibility stations is a good idea, and to make them still useful, they would appear in 3d instead of on your tracker