*Sees thread, clicks, reads, hesitates, drinks a hot cocoa* Aah... Let's do this.
In my opinion, even if it would be nice to choose our gender, I don't think it would really be necessary (And besides, it will be possible post-V.1, just wait ^^). After all, as many people mentioned, we never see the character we play (Sure, we hear him, but I'll adress that later), and so, unless there are cinematics, I think there are more important matters at hand.
It is true that some male players will think having a female character option doesn't matter. Does that make them sexist ? It all depends on the reasons they have for saying that.
Yes, there are nowadays many games where only a female character is avalaible, but first : they are often sexualized to an extreme (I like variety, flat girls are adorable too ;_; !) ; second : Let's admit it, there are many less games with a lead female character in comparison (And even then, we should all be able to choose who we want to be !) ; and third : "We, male players, don't yell around when there isn't a possibility to have a male character"... Isn't it what you're kinda doing right now, dude O_o ?
Now, for the other side : I've seen people saying they wouldn't buy the game because they can't play as their gender. If it was a game where you should be able to see yourself and all, I'd probably understand. But missing on a game in which you're interested (even if only a little bit), because you can't choose your gender despite not being able to see yourself... I won't judge, I simply know this is not what I would have done (And it is not what I did anyway XD). And saying the devs are sexists... It is true that in the poll, it was a terrible choice of words, which can make us wonder what they really think. However, let's remember a character who was even more awesome than ours, who could have killed a Reaper Leviathan if she had the knife with her at that time : Marguerit Maida. Just think about it.
I don't think adding the female model already avalaible would take that much time, I don't even know why the animations should be modified. Even the voice, it's already good to me (The voice is masculine, and many people bring that up... How should I feel knowing that mine is similar, even when it comes to the grunts of pain...?), not all girls scream/squeal like they are falling out of an helicopter, you know X'D. Maybe adding the script to choose the gender would take a bit more time, but wouldn't it be possible in-between bug fixes and all ? I mean, as said earlier by @moronwsubmarine , they took time to change some models, to the point some don't look like their original version at all.
Anyway, long story short... What matters is that they will add the possibility to choose our gender, even if it might take quite a bit of time. For the time being, I will consider my own character as a they rather than a him (It would also have been a good choice to make, since the beginning, a gender neutral character... This way, no war !).
Now, I'll go run after my lifepod, it escaped again, and sorry if I made some mistakes, English is not my maternal language. See ya !
As a 43 year old who has played D&D, video games, TCGs and countless other game types, in the fantasy genre THERE ARE PLENTY OF SCANTILY CLAD MEN. Conan is fine example. Beefcakes are nothing new.
I've also seen women characters wearing full plate. While I won't deny that gaming is dominated by males, I would be willing to say those complaining about a lack of half-naked men, simply haven't been exposed to A LOT of what the fantasy genre offers; be that games, fiction books, or things of the like. Not every male character is fully swathed in Wizard robes or tucked into a huge set of plate armor.
Kinda hard to believe that the hottest and most controversial topic in the Subnautica Forums at the moment, is about something that has already pretty much been confirmed to be happening anyway.
It would not be a simple model swap. The same animations cannot be used. Have you seen female models being animated on male rigs(mans1ay3r's gamer poop series comes to mind)? Believe it or not females have different body proportions than males and these differences in size and shape mean movements happen differently as well. If the same animations are used all sorts of weirdness can ensue beyond looking bad and actually affecting gameplay. Imagine piloting a seamoth with hands that are blocking your view. Holding your PDA where a thumb or something is blocking what one of your items are, or the PDA is just floating in space because the hand no longer reaches it because the wrist bone needs to be moved, etc. If we are to accept that new animations are necessary let's look at what animations are needed (TL;DR- it's a long list);
Standing Idle loop
Bringing up PDA
Holding PDA loop
Putting down PDA
Above PDA animations underwater(so your feet aren't standing on nothing)
Above PDA animations in mid-air(so your feet aren't standing on nothing while falling to your death)
Idle to Walking forward transition
Walking forward loop
Walking forward to Idle transition
3x the above 3 lines for left, right, and backwards
Diving into water from above it
Diving into water from lifepod hatch
Diving into water from Cyclops
Diving into water from Seamoth
Diving into water from Prawn suit
Leaving water from surface
Leaving water through lifepod hatch
Leaving water through Cyclops hatch
Leaving water through Seamoth hatch
Leaving water through Prawn suit hatch
Entering upper lifepod hatch
Exiting lifepod through upper hatch
Swimming Idle loop
Beginning to swim forwards
Swimming forward loop
Ending swimming forwards
5x the above 3 lines for left, right, backwards, up, and down
UNKx the above 5 lines for every item that you can see in first person
Also the same for Idle, Walking, Diving, and Leaving the water with every item
Seamoth Idle
Seamoth beginning to steer right
Seamoth steering right loop
Seamoth returning to Idle from steering right
3x the above 3 lines for steering left, up, and down
All the Seamoth stuff again for the Cyclops
All the Seamoth stuff again for the Prawn Suit
This list is getting a bit long so I'll try to wrap it up...
Generic Pain animations a thing? Would have to account for if above or below water and possibly moving in any direction.
Special animations like;
- Bleeder latching on to the player
- Bleeder sucking the player's blood loop
- Attacking the bleeder animation
- Possibly different animations depending on what item is being held in first person
- Bleeder being detached from player
- The Reaper Leviathan grabbing the player by themselves, in seamoth, and in prawn suit
- The same for the Sea Dragon Leviathan Emperors/whatever
I may be wrong about some of these animations, but the idea is to get an idea of the scope behind how much work goes into just animating a character.
Granted a lot of those animations may not need to be created from scratch and the existing male ones might work just fine for others, but they all still need to be tested to make sure that is the case. Furthermore I'm certain there's plenty of other animations I'm forgetting. I'm already recalling that the player interacts with certain objects like lockers and some items have their own uses, like swinging the knife or scanning with the scanner. A lot of the animations are simply transitions and I know you can use blending to have the game create them for you automatically but once again you have to test to make sure it's working correctly, which still earns them a spot on somebody's checklist and still takes time. Depending on how they do it all of these animations may need to be done a second time for a third-person model of the character as well. The way I'm thinking you would be using the third-person model would be in order to cast shadows. This would also be required if multiplayer ever became a thing(probably one of the reasons against it).
Source; 2.5 years studying game development while working on a bachelors in computer science, made a 3D game and engine from scratch in C++ in the last five months(with a team of four others, of course).
On the whole gender/sex thing, should be an option. Sooner would be better than later but eventually is better than never. Haters gonna hate. I'm sure the playable character gender thing has been discussed thousands if not millions of times before and I don't like complicating it with issues of politics, genetics, and socioeconomic concerns. Give it as an option and there should be no need for an argument or a quota or equality, just your choice.
So you're implying this hugely popular engine called Unity is incapable of reusing animation graphs from a similar model already in game, which is completely finished for both first person and thirdperson? It's not like this lady has all kinds of different limbs or weird stuff which would require a completely new animation. Or is it all stuck on boob physics, are they really that hard to animate
men and women have completely different animations. re-using won't work. so you'll have to re-do all existing player animations (and when I thought of UI I thought of these animations as well).
animating humans is very hard. this is the thing we have hardwired in our brains: if something looks like human, it have to move like human, and the more human-looking that thing is, the more realistic animations must be, otherwise it would look very creepy.
this is the reason why cartoons and many games - e.g. Team Fortress 2 - have characters with very unhuman bodies: our brain doesn't expect something that doesn't look like human to move like human, so developers can get away with unrealistic animations.
So you're implying this hugely popular engine called Unity is incapable of reusing animation graphs from a similar model already in game, which is completely finished for both first person and thirdperson? It's not like this lady has all kinds of different limbs or weird stuff which would require a completely new animation. Or is it all stuck on boob physics, are they really that hard to animate
men and women have completely different animations. re-using won't work. so you'll have to re-do all existing player animations (and when I thought of UI I thought of these animations as well).
animating humans is very hard. this is the thing we have hardwired in our brains: if something looks like human, it have to move like human, and the more human-looking that thing is, the more realistic animations must be, otherwise it would look very creepy.
this is the reason why cartoons and many games - e.g. Team Fortress 2 - have characters with very unhuman bodies: our brain doesn't expect something that doesn't look like human to move like human, so developers can get away with unrealistic animations.
Have you seen the player character? He doesn't look anywhere near human. He looks like a horrible alien nightmare.
So maybe they could indeed use the same animation.
Have you seen the player character? He doesn't look anywhere near human. He looks like a horrible alien nightmare.
So maybe they could indeed use the same animation.
fair point
maybe its constant feature creep, 60+h weeks, unpaid overtimes and week-ends wasted in office made me super paranoid about adding any new non-critical feature in anything
The main character does look like an alien, or starved. But I am kinda fine with it, but I think making a female character would be really cool, add more immersion and equality.
Currently the female model is listed as 'Maybe/DLC'
Which is not conclusive, but does suggest to me that it's been relegated to 'even lower priority/never.'
Pretty sure, based on the hate and the general dev's apparent attitude, that this is not likely to ever happen.
I don't think it is about attitude, it's probably about priority.
Defining sex of a silent first person character without background history is almost futile. In fact, how can one be sure it's actually a male we are playing with?
Considering this thread has essentially been "Nekro'd" I may as well make my own statement.
For those saying it doesen't matter outside of third person, let me put it this way; For a first-person exploration game like Subnautica I feel immersion is important. If the player model supposedly doesn't matter outside of third person, would it matter if we replaced the player model with Barney the Dinosaur? Would you feel even more terrified and immersed swimming away from a reaper, as the purple tail glides behind the fins? A bit absurd of an example I know, but merely making a point. The protagonist is more immersive than Barney there, because he's more relateable and it's easier to invision yourself in the situation. It's less like watching a video of the Reaper attack, and more like being in it.
I don't care about third person, because my goal here is enhanced immersion. My goal is to put myself in her shoes, not to stare at her backside. In a game like Ratchet and Clank where it's constantly third person and the character doesn't really represent you, it's not really a goal or a factor.
As another example, when dreaming, I'm often able to tell it's just a dream when I'm not "me". It doesen't matter if it's raining bananas or I'm getting attacked by ninjas, I won't often wake up. But the moment I'm not "me"? I wake up. Because my mind clearly tells me I'm not a duck, or a robot, etc, noting it long before the absurdities happening around me kick in.
As far as animations go, could implement the model and update it as the animations better fit the skeleton. It's not absurd to have a placeholder every now and then, especially in an early access game.
(Also yes, representation is nice. I would have realized I loved games a lot sooner if there was more of it)
I'm glad the model is being worked on, and it's honestly my most anticipated update other than the DNA transfuser. (For science!)
My answer depends entirely on this one question. In theory, if our sharks can do it. Could bone/sand sharks sense period blood? cause that would add an entire other layer of difficulty to the game.
My answer depends entirely on this one question. In theory, if our sharks can do it. Could bone/sand sharks sense period blood? cause that would add an entire other layer of difficulty to the game.
that's a question i never knew i wanted an answer to but am too lazy to google. thanks
I was going to suggest that human blood might actually be offensive to alien bio-chemistries. Then I remembered that cave crawlers seem to have no problem consuming human organic matter. So...interesting question Nova.
I think this whole discussion is BS. The developer decides what they want to make. If you dont like it, dont play it. If this game was not so popular, women would not give a sh*t. However as this is not the case, it is made political and the mob with torches and pitchforks DEMAND (it has become a shitstorm) that the developer change their game nomatter how easy or hard it is. Mobrule.... -and i dont care if the protagonist is male or female. I would still play the game!
Comments
In my opinion, even if it would be nice to choose our gender, I don't think it would really be necessary (And besides, it will be possible post-V.1, just wait ^^). After all, as many people mentioned, we never see the character we play (Sure, we hear him, but I'll adress that later), and so, unless there are cinematics, I think there are more important matters at hand.
It is true that some male players will think having a female character option doesn't matter. Does that make them sexist ? It all depends on the reasons they have for saying that.
Yes, there are nowadays many games where only a female character is avalaible, but first : they are often sexualized to an extreme (I like variety, flat girls are adorable too ;_; !) ; second : Let's admit it, there are many less games with a lead female character in comparison (And even then, we should all be able to choose who we want to be !) ; and third : "We, male players, don't yell around when there isn't a possibility to have a male character"... Isn't it what you're kinda doing right now, dude O_o ?
Now, for the other side : I've seen people saying they wouldn't buy the game because they can't play as their gender. If it was a game where you should be able to see yourself and all, I'd probably understand. But missing on a game in which you're interested (even if only a little bit), because you can't choose your gender despite not being able to see yourself... I won't judge, I simply know this is not what I would have done (And it is not what I did anyway XD). And saying the devs are sexists... It is true that in the poll, it was a terrible choice of words, which can make us wonder what they really think. However, let's remember a character who was even more awesome than ours, who could have killed a Reaper Leviathan if she had the knife with her at that time : Marguerit Maida. Just think about it.
I don't think adding the female model already avalaible would take that much time, I don't even know why the animations should be modified. Even the voice, it's already good to me (The voice is masculine, and many people bring that up... How should I feel knowing that mine is similar, even when it comes to the grunts of pain...?), not all girls scream/squeal like they are falling out of an helicopter, you know X'D. Maybe adding the script to choose the gender would take a bit more time, but wouldn't it be possible in-between bug fixes and all ? I mean, as said earlier by @moronwsubmarine , they took time to change some models, to the point some don't look like their original version at all.
Anyway, long story short... What matters is that they will add the possibility to choose our gender, even if it might take quite a bit of time. For the time being, I will consider my own character as a they rather than a him (It would also have been a good choice to make, since the beginning, a gender neutral character... This way, no war !).
Now, I'll go run after my lifepod, it escaped again, and sorry if I made some mistakes, English is not my maternal language. See ya !
I've also seen women characters wearing full plate. While I won't deny that gaming is dominated by males, I would be willing to say those complaining about a lack of half-naked men, simply haven't been exposed to A LOT of what the fantasy genre offers; be that games, fiction books, or things of the like. Not every male character is fully swathed in Wizard robes or tucked into a huge set of plate armor.
HEY PEOPLE'S...
SUBNAUTICA TRELLO wants to be your BFF.
Honestly, it didn't explode as much as I thought it would.
At this point, I thought people would be choosing sides, preparing for a full on flame war.
Good job people, you're better than reddit users.
It got ugly.
Standing Idle loop
Bringing up PDA
Holding PDA loop
Putting down PDA
Above PDA animations underwater(so your feet aren't standing on nothing)
Above PDA animations in mid-air(so your feet aren't standing on nothing while falling to your death)
Idle to Walking forward transition
Walking forward loop
Walking forward to Idle transition
3x the above 3 lines for left, right, and backwards
Diving into water from above it
Diving into water from lifepod hatch
Diving into water from Cyclops
Diving into water from Seamoth
Diving into water from Prawn suit
Leaving water from surface
Leaving water through lifepod hatch
Leaving water through Cyclops hatch
Leaving water through Seamoth hatch
Leaving water through Prawn suit hatch
Entering upper lifepod hatch
Exiting lifepod through upper hatch
Swimming Idle loop
Beginning to swim forwards
Swimming forward loop
Ending swimming forwards
5x the above 3 lines for left, right, backwards, up, and down
UNKx the above 5 lines for every item that you can see in first person
Also the same for Idle, Walking, Diving, and Leaving the water with every item
Seamoth Idle
Seamoth beginning to steer right
Seamoth steering right loop
Seamoth returning to Idle from steering right
3x the above 3 lines for steering left, up, and down
All the Seamoth stuff again for the Cyclops
All the Seamoth stuff again for the Prawn Suit
This list is getting a bit long so I'll try to wrap it up...
Generic Pain animations a thing? Would have to account for if above or below water and possibly moving in any direction.
Special animations like;
- Bleeder latching on to the player
- Bleeder sucking the player's blood loop
- Attacking the bleeder animation
- Possibly different animations depending on what item is being held in first person
- Bleeder being detached from player
- The Reaper Leviathan grabbing the player by themselves, in seamoth, and in prawn suit
- The same for the Sea Dragon Leviathan Emperors/whatever
I may be wrong about some of these animations, but the idea is to get an idea of the scope behind how much work goes into just animating a character.
Granted a lot of those animations may not need to be created from scratch and the existing male ones might work just fine for others, but they all still need to be tested to make sure that is the case. Furthermore I'm certain there's plenty of other animations I'm forgetting. I'm already recalling that the player interacts with certain objects like lockers and some items have their own uses, like swinging the knife or scanning with the scanner. A lot of the animations are simply transitions and I know you can use blending to have the game create them for you automatically but once again you have to test to make sure it's working correctly, which still earns them a spot on somebody's checklist and still takes time. Depending on how they do it all of these animations may need to be done a second time for a third-person model of the character as well. The way I'm thinking you would be using the third-person model would be in order to cast shadows. This would also be required if multiplayer ever became a thing(probably one of the reasons against it).
Source; 2.5 years studying game development while working on a bachelors in computer science, made a 3D game and engine from scratch in C++ in the last five months(with a team of four others, of course).
On the whole gender/sex thing, should be an option. Sooner would be better than later but eventually is better than never. Haters gonna hate. I'm sure the playable character gender thing has been discussed thousands if not millions of times before and I don't like complicating it with issues of politics, genetics, and socioeconomic concerns. Give it as an option and there should be no need for an argument or a quota or equality, just your choice.
animating humans is very hard. this is the thing we have hardwired in our brains: if something looks like human, it have to move like human, and the more human-looking that thing is, the more realistic animations must be, otherwise it would look very creepy.
this is the reason why cartoons and many games - e.g. Team Fortress 2 - have characters with very unhuman bodies: our brain doesn't expect something that doesn't look like human to move like human, so developers can get away with unrealistic animations.
And he regrets it every day.
Have you seen the player character? He doesn't look anywhere near human. He looks like a horrible alien nightmare.
So maybe they could indeed use the same animation.
maybe its constant feature creep, 60+h weeks, unpaid overtimes and week-ends wasted in office made me super paranoid about adding any new non-critical feature in anything
Which is not conclusive, but does suggest to me that it's been relegated to 'even lower priority/never.'
Pretty sure, based on the hate and the general dev's apparent attitude, that this is not likely to ever happen.
If I were a betting man (or woman), I wouldn't bet on that.
I don't think it is about attitude, it's probably about priority.
Defining sex of a silent first person character without background history is almost futile. In fact, how can one be sure it's actually a male we are playing with?
For those saying it doesen't matter outside of third person, let me put it this way; For a first-person exploration game like Subnautica I feel immersion is important. If the player model supposedly doesn't matter outside of third person, would it matter if we replaced the player model with Barney the Dinosaur? Would you feel even more terrified and immersed swimming away from a reaper, as the purple tail glides behind the fins? A bit absurd of an example I know, but merely making a point. The protagonist is more immersive than Barney there, because he's more relateable and it's easier to invision yourself in the situation. It's less like watching a video of the Reaper attack, and more like being in it.
I don't care about third person, because my goal here is enhanced immersion. My goal is to put myself in her shoes, not to stare at her backside. In a game like Ratchet and Clank where it's constantly third person and the character doesn't really represent you, it's not really a goal or a factor.
As another example, when dreaming, I'm often able to tell it's just a dream when I'm not "me". It doesen't matter if it's raining bananas or I'm getting attacked by ninjas, I won't often wake up. But the moment I'm not "me"? I wake up. Because my mind clearly tells me I'm not a duck, or a robot, etc, noting it long before the absurdities happening around me kick in.
As far as animations go, could implement the model and update it as the animations better fit the skeleton. It's not absurd to have a placeholder every now and then, especially in an early access game.
(Also yes, representation is nice. I would have realized I loved games a lot sooner if there was more of it)
I'm glad the model is being worked on, and it's honestly my most anticipated update other than the DNA transfuser. (For science!)