Trello: Remove Alien Weapon Switching

FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation, Array Posts: 1,461 Advanced user
https://trello.com/c/qKdFTBqU/122-remove-alien-weapon-switching

If you're going to do this, make sure it's an option. I don't care if it's default or not, but don't get rid of the old way... There's nothing wrong with it, and there's nothing wrong with both.

Also, if you do this, and you don't have separate profiles for each alien lifeform, then it's useless.
mattji104
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Comments

  • Bike_ManBike_Man USA Join Date: 2016-03-12 Member: 214124Members Posts: 42 Advanced user
    To avoid players having legacy problems, I agree that it should be an option. Some people might not be able to get used to the more moba style ability usage, even though it often cuts down on keystrokes.
    Kasharic
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    personally, I would love the moba style setup, I believe I would be able to play NS2 way better with that kind of control setup... but I do understand that others would not like it... options are always a good idea.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • StardogStardog Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Members Posts: 303 Advanced user
    Weapon select needs work in general. For aliens it should have the names of everything underneath the number. I've no idea how a beginner would figure out how to guide babblers.
    IeptBarakat
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    wait wut really?
    I would detest having this done.
    So yes, I am 100% for the "make it a toggle" option.

    I use weapon switching, and a lot of it.
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  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    I use weapon switching, and a lot of it.

    Without alternatives of course you do.

    IMO it would be more intuitive, the whole number for weapon selection is a legacy way of doing it.
    It had its place in Half-Life mods but for a modern game?
    Game UI evolved quite a bit since then.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    personally, I would love the moba style setup, I believe I would be able to play NS2 way better with that kind of control setup... but I do understand that others would not like it... options are always a good idea.

    If you don't have additional mouse buttons, you are probably going to sacrifice a bit of movement or reaction time. I have a finger on shift/ctrl, a, w/s, d, spacebar. I'm not giving that up. Its good for one click weapons/toggles that don't require holding or repeated use, but not others that do. Removing weapon switching entirely is a non starter. Imagine using trailing spores as a lerk if this change came in before projectile spores.
    barnie wrote: »
    I use weapon switching, and a lot of it.

    Without alternatives of course you do.

    IMO it would be more intuitive, the whole number for weapon selection is a legacy way of doing it.
    It had its place in Half-Life mods but for a modern game?
    Game UI evolved quite a bit since then.

    Hahaha, even the devs aren't going that far. They are just thinking of removing it for aliens. I'd love to see you name a game with a secondary weapon that doesn't include weapon selection.
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
    well in moba style setups you are moving with mouse clicks so your left hand can focus on JUST those abilities.

    lets say in ns2 you would have WASD for movement, shift for sprint/sneak, spacebar for jump, 1 for first ability, 2 for second ability, 3 for third ability... wouldn't this basically overload the left hand?

    I know you kinda have to do it anyway but my quickswitch is on Q (okay as skulk that would mean my parasite button would be Q) but for ler with switching between spores and umbra I always anticipate what I will need in next engagement most likely and configure my quickswitch to exactly do that. I only have Q and there are no other keys free anymore for the ffective use of abilities in combat
    return to zero
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  • blakeleyblakeley blakeleyland Join Date: 2016-07-31 Member: 220837Members Posts: 2
    edited July 2016
    @REMI how about if you did these filthy casual updates in to ROOKIE only mod?
    The_Welsh_WizardResistorKasharicmoultano
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    If you don't have additional mouse buttons, you are probably going to sacrifice a bit of movement or reaction time. I have a finger on shift/ctrl, a, w/s, d, spacebar. I'm not giving that up. Its good for one click weapons/toggles that don't require holding or repeated use, but not others that do. Removing weapon switching entirely is a non starter. Imagine using trailing spores as a lerk if this change came in before projectile spores.

    Thankfully I do have additional mouse buttons, which is one of the reasons I really like the idea.
    Mephilles wrote: »
    well in moba style setups you are moving with mouse clicks so your left hand can focus on JUST those abilities.

    lets say in ns2 you would have WASD for movement, shift for sprint/sneak, spacebar for jump, 1 for first ability, 2 for second ability, 3 for third ability... wouldn't this basically overload the left hand?

    I know you kinda have to do it anyway but my quickswitch is on Q (okay as skulk that would mean my parasite button would be Q) but for ler with switching between spores and umbra I always anticipate what I will need in next engagement most likely and configure my quickswitch to exactly do that. I only have Q and there are no other keys free anymore for the ffective use of abilities in combat

    Anyone who has ever played an MMO to a high level is already adept at multitasking their left hand... when you're PvPing and you don't have a razor naga or similar, the amount of key presses, bindings etc that you have is ludicrous... this "moba style" having your aliens skills on your 1 - 5 buttons is literally nothing, its a walk in the park.

    ______________________________________________________

    While I don't expect everyone to like/use the moba style button layout, it would not be difficult to use for many people, I would switch now if I could.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,433 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    If you don't have additional mouse buttons, you are probably going to sacrifice a bit of movement or reaction time. I have a finger on shift/ctrl, a, w/s, d, spacebar. I'm not giving that up. Its good for one click weapons/toggles that don't require holding or repeated use, but not others that do. Removing weapon switching entirely is a non starter. Imagine using trailing spores as a lerk if this change came in before projectile spores.

    Thankfully I do have additional mouse buttons, which is one of the reasons I really like the idea.
    Mephilles wrote: »
    well in moba style setups you are moving with mouse clicks so your left hand can focus on JUST those abilities.

    lets say in ns2 you would have WASD for movement, shift for sprint/sneak, spacebar for jump, 1 for first ability, 2 for second ability, 3 for third ability... wouldn't this basically overload the left hand?

    I know you kinda have to do it anyway but my quickswitch is on Q (okay as skulk that would mean my parasite button would be Q) but for ler with switching between spores and umbra I always anticipate what I will need in next engagement most likely and configure my quickswitch to exactly do that. I only have Q and there are no other keys free anymore for the ffective use of abilities in combat

    Anyone who has ever played an MMO to a high level is already adept at multitasking their left hand... when you're PvPing and you don't have a razor naga or similar, the amount of key presses, bindings etc that you have is ludicrous... this "moba style" having your aliens skills on your 1 - 5 buttons is literally nothing, its a walk in the park.

    ______________________________________________________

    While I don't expect everyone to like/use the moba style button layout, it would not be difficult to use for many people, I would switch now if I could.

    Well don't forget that as aliens, movement is very important and you'll want to avoid taking your hand of WASD.

    That said, the idea of having all alien abilities ready with a button press sounds intriguing. Might get overcrowded with the gorge, though...
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    edited July 2016

    Well don't forget that as aliens, movement is very important and you'll want to avoid taking your hand of WASD.

    That said, the idea of having all alien abilities ready with a button press sounds intriguing. Might get overcrowded with the gorge, though...

    you'd be surprised at the weird angles your hand can bend allowing you to press button combinations that are bizarre... I use a gaming keypad (similar to the delux T-9, or the Logitech G13), during PvP in WoW I had to simultaneously press Ctrl + shift, D, W, 4, Space, Period and hold Right mouse button while moving the camera to perform a relatively simple platform jump while interrupting a shaman spellcast as my DK...

    Button combinations are only an issue for those that are not used to it.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    @barnie Your comment implies I have no basis of comparison with other games and their controls.
    Lets just cut that point short with that I really like last weapon switch, regardless of other types of controls.
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  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    If you don't have additional mouse buttons, you are probably going to sacrifice a bit of movement or reaction time. I have a finger on shift/ctrl, a, w/s, d, spacebar. I'm not giving that up. Its good for one click weapons/toggles that don't require holding or repeated use, but not others that do. Removing weapon switching entirely is a non starter. Imagine using trailing spores as a lerk if this change came in before projectile spores.

    Thankfully I do have additional mouse buttons, which is one of the reasons I really like the idea.

    I do too, as would many others, but what about all the others who don't? That is so selfish. As if this game isn't enough of a hardware competition.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    If you don't have additional mouse buttons, you are probably going to sacrifice a bit of movement or reaction time. I have a finger on shift/ctrl, a, w/s, d, spacebar. I'm not giving that up. Its good for one click weapons/toggles that don't require holding or repeated use, but not others that do. Removing weapon switching entirely is a non starter. Imagine using trailing spores as a lerk if this change came in before projectile spores.

    Thankfully I do have additional mouse buttons, which is one of the reasons I really like the idea.

    I do too, as would many others, but what about all the others who don't? That is so selfish. As if this game isn't enough of a hardware competition.

    as is having 144hz monitor... or a mechanical keyboard... or 7.1 surround sound... should we limit the engine to prevent higher than 30fps, or prevent multiple simultaneous keystrokes, or stereo sound as a maximum to compensate for those that don't have the hardware?

    To design or limit design based on the lowest possible hardware is equally selfish... the idea is to allow people to make the best out of what they own.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,433 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »

    Well don't forget that as aliens, movement is very important and you'll want to avoid taking your hand of WASD.

    That said, the idea of having all alien abilities ready with a button press sounds intriguing. Might get overcrowded with the gorge, though...

    you'd be surprised at the weird angles your hand can bend allowing you to press button combinations that are bizarre... I use a gaming keypad (similar to the delux T-9, or the Logitech G13), during PvP in WoW I had to simultaneously press Ctrl + shift, D, W, 4, Space, Period and hold Right mouse button while moving the camera to perform a relatively simple platform jump while interrupting a shaman spellcast as my DK...

    Button combinations are only an issue for those that are not used to it.

    Of course. Still, having to press q in combat while strafing forward and to the left is cumbersome and should be avoided in design.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Seems like the most unnecessary change they came up with yet
    lotnik190
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,690 Advanced user
    blakeley wrote: »
    @REMI how about if you did these filthy casual updates in to ROOKIE only mod?

    That ship has sailed and has been bombarded by a nuke a long time ago

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  • KarmicJusticeKarmicJustice Join Date: 2013-11-29 Member: 189628Members Posts: 17 Fully active user
    blakeley wrote: »
    @REMI how about if you did these filthy casual updates in to ROOKIE only mod?

    Why in a rookie only mod? This could be optional, per lifeform or better you could bind both the weapon or its direct use.

    FYI it's how these filthy QW casuals play...
    Live_Feed
  • blakeleyblakeley blakeleyland Join Date: 2016-07-31 Member: 220837Members Posts: 2
    Sorry remi, that came out bit too personal without much thinking about the topic from last survivors of the radioactive ship.

    "could be optional" no! These has to be optional and the additional hitbox, health bar buffs should only apply to rookies imo.
    Rookie mode has still a lot to improve to make it even a little closer to the real games ie. good commander bot and to explain the flow of the game.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    If you don't have additional mouse buttons, you are probably going to sacrifice a bit of movement or reaction time. I have a finger on shift/ctrl, a, w/s, d, spacebar. I'm not giving that up. Its good for one click weapons/toggles that don't require holding or repeated use, but not others that do. Removing weapon switching entirely is a non starter. Imagine using trailing spores as a lerk if this change came in before projectile spores.

    Thankfully I do have additional mouse buttons, which is one of the reasons I really like the idea.

    I do too, as would many others, but what about all the others who don't? That is so selfish. As if this game isn't enough of a hardware competition.

    as is having 144hz monitor... or a mechanical keyboard... or 7.1 surround sound... should we limit the engine to prevent higher than 30fps, or prevent multiple simultaneous keystrokes, or stereo sound as a maximum to compensate for those that don't have the hardware?

    To design or limit design based on the lowest possible hardware is equally selfish... the idea is to allow people to make the best out of what they own.

    Sigh, asking what about such and such isn't a defense of your position, but I'll answer anyway. The aim is to of course be as inclusive as possible. The difference between your examples are that they expand the possibilities of better hardware, rather than limit the possibilities without. There is a difference in nuance. And of course, where such gaps exist, it is best to limit them. You can't do anything about not having a 144hz monitor, but you can optimise the game to ensure constant 60fps for those with weaker hardware. Or in this case, ensure that the moba style controls are a supplement and not a replacement.
    Nordic
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sigh, asking what about such and such isn't a defense of your position, but I'll answer anyway. The aim is to of course be as inclusive as possible. The difference between your examples are that they expand the possibilities of better hardware, rather than limit the possibilities without. There is a difference in nuance. And of course, where such gaps exist, it is best to limit them. You can't do anything about not having a 144hz monitor, but you can optimise the game to ensure constant 60fps for those with weaker hardware. Or in this case, ensure that the moba style controls are a supplement and not a replacement.

    Please, go ahead and find where I said it should be a replacement...

    In fact, I've advocated for legacy controls and moba controls to be optional.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Its the part where you said options are a "good idea" instead of "compulsory".

    Edit - And your advocating sure takes a weird form. Sure seems like you were asking people to just deal with it.
    Nordic
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Its the part where you said options are a "good idea" instead of "compulsory".

    Edit - And your advocating sure takes a weird form. Sure seems like you were asking people to just deal with it.

    That is because I struggle to word myself properly, I have many issues that I won't go into on the forums, but you can rest assured that it wasn't intended that way.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

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  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 764 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    I'm interested in this feature, I always loved right click leap, and I don't think there's anyone using a mouse with less than 3 buttons + 2 scroll dir.
    I don't know about the coding requirements but keeping it optional like this would be awesome:

    KB1-# remain weapon slots. If KB1 is selected, the new moba style binds are active, any other KB# selection puts that attack on mouse 1 (all bindable ofc)
    It seems "backwards-compatible" to me, and not even a switch is needed in the options

    EDIT: @remi (would hate if you haven't noticed xP)
    Post edited by .trixX. on
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  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    I'm not sure if it really fits the card, but while you're at changing the weapon switching, you may consider making both welder and axe selectable for the marines. The axe is superior in terms of structure killing and finishing skulks.

    You could make it so that "weapon #3 press and hold" gives you the axe, when you have welder equipped or vice versa.

    Though even better would be, if you'd go all out and added the option to bind "press and hold key XYZ" and replace

    "weapon #1"
    "weapon #2"
    "weapon #3"
    "weapon #4"
    "weapon #5"

    with

    "switch to primary"
    "switch to pistol"
    "switch to axe"
    "switch to welder"
    "switch to grenade"
    "switch to mine"
    .

    Same for the aliens, but in seperated control tabs: Marine controls, Skulk controls, Gorge controls, Lerk controls, Fade controls, Onos controls and commander controls.
    Mines could be "press and hold" with grenades.
    To reach your goal with the weapon switching, add the possibility to mark an ability as "use on press".

    You'd then have all the possibilities and could setup better default controls and everyone is happy, because it's optional.

    Post edited by Bicsum on
    .trixX.IeptBarakatsen
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,461 Advanced user
    Bike_Man wrote: »
    Well, this thread went wacko. Really, the only purpose of the trello card was to make alien play a little more seamless. It isn't a conspiracy to make NS2 into Dota 3, and it isn't dumbing down. It's just an alternate control scheme that could improve how people play. Think about stomp for the onos. It could have been assigned to a different weapon slot, but the right mouse button was open. So it was tacked on there, and it made sense because an onos can rapidly stop and then gore a target. By contrast, bone shield is in a weapon slot. That's fine, but it could be just slightly faster if it was directly bound to a key. Again - optional. If you can't handle ARMA level keybinding, stick to switching weapons. It's only slower by one action.

    If you hate every update or suggested update to NS2, remember that NS2 updates are optional - you are always welcome to smash your router under a rock and then go back to living under it.

    Pretty sure customization if controls is important to alot of people in alot of games. Look at how easy it is in LoL to switch ability keys and quick-cast types. Press escapr, make changes in really user friendly interface, press escape again. Go on living. I can do that while gestating, I don't care, I just want it the way that will help me play best.

    If I have to use quick-cast abilities only I lose so much targeting ability because I just can't physically manipulate my hand to press and ability key while aiming my mouse. I need the mouse1 at this point. I mean I know someone in ns2 who switched space to be attack and mouse1 to be jump. I can't do that, at all.
    mattji104
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Exactly, we are merely stating this change should be optional, a toggle, legacy controls never removed.
    If we can have both then I aint complaining.
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  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 764 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    @Bicsum being able to equip either welder or axe would be really useful.
    But the press for X seconds differentiation makes switching slow especially during engagements
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
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