Unfair representation for female leads? Could it be that maybe, just maybe the market is simply not there (smaller) or storytellers want their main characters to be male, we can't force them into a story with a particular gender, where the gender choice is simply out of place, now can we? The same goes for movies/books/any kind of story really... It's just more of a personal thing with games, because of the interactivity compared to other mediums...
I mean, let's be honest here. Equality means fair representation of a character (story/background). But, males and females are completely different creatures and behave differently. As I said some stories are better suited with a male protagonist, others with a female one. The point is, what story does a game designer want to tell, that is where the gender choice for the main character lies. Not at the point of character creation before the story, mind you... Also as I said, this mostly hold true for games with a character with depth and a story... Subnautica has more anonymity, so gender choice is more likely in any case...
It is insulting because you are essentially claiming that we are all sexist, and that our views are all based solely on our gender biases.
Also, why not? It is the correct term, and I freely refer to men as being male. No one has complained before.
Okay, fair enough. I didn't mean it that way. I do think there's a bias at play, but not a conscious one. Suppose the scenario here is that the lot of you is male (which I suspect from details here and there) and you are all being "gender doesn't matter" and "resources/time could be spend better" towards the female option, while the topic starter and I are both female and say it does matter to us (and ScubaMatt even claimed his wife might play when the female model is implemented). That would contextualize this discussion, no? Or maybe I am wrong and the majority of you is female - that too would be valuable to me because it would be far less me feeling like I have to justify my existence.
Most people who use "female" as a noun do not use "male" as a noun nearly as much and there's an unpleasant context behind that. Not saying anything about your use of it here, but I do request not to use it when talking to me.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2016
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean here. Heh nice play on words there, if I do say so myself And it isn't mean, just that it could be seen as such...
Anyways, your own gender actually has no bearing on the discussion at hand at all... Both genders tend to play both... genders (dammit stop the wordplay )
However that would be basically saying, we as males can't talk about this subject or have an opinion on the matter, because we're male. I for one have stated the reasons why things are as they are in gaming lands, good single players games have fleshed out characters based on the gender of a character, be it female or male (heck even race). Survival/"MMO"RPG games are in their own category...
But what you're implying is similar to this, two buddies going to a movie:
Bob: That movie sucks!
John: Wait, are you an actor or director? (good buddies would know this, but stay with me here)
Bob: No, I just don't like the movie. I really hate it, it has no content and the acting is really bad
John: Well you can't say that, if you don't make movies yourself or star in them...
Bob: um...
See the issue...
[edit]
I've actually never used "woman/man/female/male/girl/boy" when talking to people. That would be a really weird conversation, wouldn't it. We have names, those are usually easier to slap into a conversation lol. And if you know a person, even names tend to not be used as often either
Let's just play the game already. i just bought the game and was seeing how the community was and saw the topic,and i gave my two cent about it. i really don't care if sub adds female modals or not.
Holy Crap, when starting this topic I was in no way wanting all of this to happen. Let's all be friends male and female, man and woman, girl and boy.
As teenage girl I was playing Pacman when it was a new fangled thing, so myself and many others have seen the progression of gaming over many many (many many) years. It is just a fact that male avatars or gaming heroes or whatever are far more usual than female. It is also just a fact that more women care about it then men. Some women care more about it then others. I fall somewhere in the middle. Not because I like it that women are under represented, but because I am just getting to old to get all that worked up about it. In this situation it is an unfinished game so I feel like it is kind of our jobs as players of unfinished games to offer suggestions, point out bugs, give encouragement and so forth. Also this is one of those games where it just really doesn't matter if the survivor is male or female so why not give the player a choice.
For the one person who talked about Ark. Since that is a multiplayer game it seems more relevant to have female avatars. I can't imagine anyone whether they are man, woman, gay, straight, or other would find it interesting to only be stuck looking at everyone being a male. That would just be boring.
As for all the other stuff, men, think about the women in your life that you love. Mothers, sisters, daughters, grandmothers. Women are just people who want to see themselves reflected in the activities and art that they love. What is so wrong with that, that it would lead to such hostility? Just because we ask?
Women, let's remember that there are just way more men making video games then there are women. It is only natural that they are most likely going to represent who they are in their art. I truly just don't believe that in most cases there is a clutch of evil men out there intent on only making male avatars. There is some extreme misogyny in the gaming industry, but I don't think it serves to assume that it is everywhere. And when we run across it, which will happen pretty much anywhere we dare to speak of it ... It is just so much easier to ignore those guys. Trust me, nothing you say will change their outlook, so just talk with the good guys. There are tons of them around.
Now, back to this game and the subject of this thread ... Let's me just say I really love the female avatar. I look forward to having it in the game! Let's go diving men and women!!
Don't let anyone fool you into thinking the majority of gamers or even the majority of male gamers ever want to exclude female player models/characters from their video games.
The only anti female character model gamers are a very vocal very unpleasant minority. Female gamers want female characters as an option (duh), and most male gamers ALSO want that option to be there, for themselves or for others even if all they ever do with it is feel nice about having had the option when they pick the alternative.
When someone is arguing against harmless beneficial choice... they have some sort of agenda. The cloak of "most gamers don't want it" or "its too hard for the developers to have even ONE whole alternative character model!" are thin and transparent veneers on something nasty.
Mind you subnautica probably isn't the game for this argument. The female model is woefully late in appearing sure, but I'm pretty certain it's on it's way. Unless they cut it... then people would be well justified to be pissed.
I agree with you LobsterPhone (not on your choice of phone, that looks dangerous) but on the opinion that subnautica isn't the game for this argument. From all I have seen they are awesome people. And you're right about the "very vocal very unpleasant minority". That is why I just don't engage them. Their attitude won't be changed regardless of the validity of the argument and I feel like I am doing them a favor if I give them an opportunity to target me with their vocal unpleasantness.
Now, about that phone. I hope you don't carry it in your pocket ever!
yomamaOn the freewayJoin Date: 2016-04-17Member: 215861Members
I'm female. And a woman. And quite possibly in DO's estimation some other terms as well, which is fine. "Female" is really, truly not some kind of n-word equivalent in my humble, singular opinion.
Representation in gaming is not, at least to me, on the same level as voting/reproductive rights or equitable pay. However, I do vote with my wallet and support games with female protagonists and/or creators where applicable. I do also tend to support developers who have good ideas such as this game.
I agree with those who have said that the player in this particular game is anonymous, and as far as even the narrative goes the presence of wetsuit boobs won't make a bit of difference. Unless the devs want it to, of course. I am tickled that these devs thought to make a female model but if they hadn't I would have been happy to play as a scrawny pair of hands and legs.
I also don't think Link should get a sex change. To me, since the NES Link has been a guy. Give us a new storyline within that world with a female character and I'll play the crap out of it! I'm not upset about the idea, especially not enough to troll or condone flaming or trolling and I found the business of gamergate to be thoroughly disgusting.
Here's the thing...the creators are private citizens and as such are not obligated to include anything to suit anyone, although these guys here do seem to try to make their player community mostly happy. Nobody is actually entitled to be represented. This is not equal employment or civil rights. If you want more of what you want, then by all means you can ask for it and support games that fit your idea of what should be. Support those games when they show up. Make the games you like hugely successful and you'll see more of them.
Enjoy this awesome, chillaxing game. And when our new boobs arrive enjoy those too!
yomamaOn the freewayJoin Date: 2016-04-17Member: 215861Members
I gotta admit I was negative about the all female Ghostbusters remake...until I saw who was in it. I'm going to have a MUCH harder time watching Dwayne Johnson trying to fill Robin Williams' shoes in the remake of Jumanji!
Enjoy this awesome, chillaxing game. And when our new boobs arrive enjoy those too!
Even if you don't like the color...
They could just give both models gloves.[/quote]
Wait ... The boobs are a weird color!?
Yo, yomama (sorry, couldn't stop myself)
I am pretty much in the same lane you are with all this. Especially the "female" part. I guess I totally missed the memo on that being a derogatory label. When did that happen?
And poor Link! How did he get pulled into all of this? He was just walking around opening chests and taking down bad guys last I heard of him. We should just let him be HIM, and move the on.
yomamaOn the freewayJoin Date: 2016-04-17Member: 215861Members
edited June 2016
Yeah, we need a craftable mammogram machine once they give us boobs because as we all know early detection is critical for survival. Also avoiding things with big teeth.
Hey, I just thought of a good reason to not have boobs in this game...uh...when does the PC take off the wetsuit? Yeah. Crawly feeling just imagining that.
Awe, come one dude. Why you want to fire stuff up again.
Sometimes men say stuff in really stupid ways without thinking about how it really sounds. My husband does it constantly, but I'm not going to burn him alive with a flamethrower. (probably) And sometimes women who have just had enough of it get really pissed off about it (rightfully so) and vent it off.
In the end we are all human and say and do stupid stuff and need to just not look for the drama in it all.
And Charlie, if by some chance you drop by here and read this, ... Of course it is worth it. Women love your awesome game and it's always worth it to reach out to as many paying customers as you possible can. Each happy paying customer brings in more happy paying customer. As far as the time line. No rush at all, work on the core game first for sure, just do it eventually so we don't have to rise up in revolt and totally swamp your base, and feed your sea moth to the fishes.
It's kind of hard (on the internet that is) to speak for a group of people, since maybe you're only talking about what you only what, or if there is a group you do speak for it may not be as big as you thing.
Well, despite the fact that there are numerous conversations going on about gender equality in gaming at the moment, the real irony here is that you're attempting to exactly what you're saying other people can't do. While I've yet to see anyone here claiming to speak for any group, you're basically dismissing the lived experiences of a number of people as what you say is fact, and not just (by your own standards) your lone opinion.
I also think not as many people really care about identity as they claim they do. I think a major of the gamer crowd doesn't care who they are they just want to play the game.
And again, you're dismissing someone else's experiences. How can you really say that something doesn't matter to the people are saying it matters to them? I could just as easily say I don't think your opinions matter to you. Would that make me right?
i just don't want the dev's wasting their time on something that really doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter TO YOU. And maybe it doesn't matter to some other people as well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to anyone.
I imagine if we all woke up tomorrow to find that the gender of every character in computer gaming had been swapped, it'd matter to a lot of the people who say it doesn't matter today.
Also sometimes a game just has a role more befitting a male character or the people designing the game want a male character, that is not wrong in any way shape or form and certainly not sexist, it is just storytelling.
I mean, let's be honest here. Equality means fair representation of a character (story/background). But, males and females are completely different creatures and behave differently. As I said some stories are better suited with a male protagonist, others with a female one.
Um, those statements are in themselves totally sexist. What you're actually saying is that 'sometimes a game just has a role more befitting a male character as defined by traditional western social norms'. There is NO role that cannot be filled by either gender, unless you're defining your roles by inherently sexist gender stereotypes. I mean, as you were typing that, what roles were you thinking of that were more befitting a male character, and why could that role not be filled by a female one?
And as for men and women behaving differently that's total rubbish. People behave differently, regardless of gender. The argument that there's some kind of 'normal' man or woman, or that majority of men behave in one, clearly defined way and the majority of women behave in another is demonstrably nonsense, and the idea that they do or should is actively harmful, to men as well as women.
The same goes for female leads in certain games. A character has a history, a story, a background and that is fine and is obviously tied to a gender. Gender swapping is just a lazy cop out.
Again, why should gender matter beyond attempting to market your product/story to a particular demographic? Name one story where characters could not possibly have been a different gender, beyond conforming to currently prevailing gender stereotypes? Simply following the norm and failing to address it's shortcomings is the lazy cop out, not the other way around.
But as I said... Not all games need this "gender equality", mainly based on character design and gender choice, to base a character's design/story/history on
I agree that not *every* game requires the option to play either gender. No one (that I heard of) complained about only being able to play a female character in Portal for example, but then we get to play as male characters in 99% of all other games. I'm sure once the gaming industry represents women in a much more representative (and not overly sexualised) way it'll be much less of an issue, but for now the question here shouldn't be 'why?' but 'why not?'. Personally I think that wherever possible, male and female models should be included at the same time, not have one added in later as an afterthought when all the other 'important' stuff is done. Being equally represented is important to a lot of people.
As I've said before, if those percentages were the other way around, I'm sure it'd matter to a lot more guys. The trick here is not to assume your view of the world is the default. Just because something doesn't matter to you, just because you haven't or can't experience the world in the same way others do, that doesn't make those experiences any less valid.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2016
Ugh dammit, I knew this would happen... Guess what, you're reading too much into that by nitpicking and selective quoting, just looking for an argument. The actual point I was making is that for certain roles, a game designer has a plan, a role, a gender and even a race in mind. As such, they will use that to write the story of a character. Once a character has been introduced and marketed, you don't go in and mess with the gender or race afterwards in a lazy attempt to be politically correct. Political correctness in itself is an insult to our intelligence in any case, we can't even have proper conversation anymore due to people instantly playing the victim card on certain topics...
El offtopic: not entirely related to this subject, but I just hate the cowardly hiding behind this PC crap A discussion/conversation completely shuts down once such a card has been pulled. I for one actually respect others who can cope with an opinion that is not their own and have a proper discussion, instead of calling foul (victim/sexist/race cards). I'm probably an ancient relic from much better times, where we could have adult conversations (and that sounds quite wrong, you dirty minded fiends you. I'm on to you all )
Of course we want fair representation, but at least represent women and men accurately. It is an evolutionary fact that women and men are physically, psychologically different, they behave and react differently to certain things. On the extreme spectrum where hero characters are usually represented, men are overall much bigger, stronger and aggressive, while women tend to be quicker, nimble and observant. These things are completely ignored in this discussion, heck we'd end up with female leads mimicking what men do in games, which looks and feels highly unnatural. Unless a female character has been designed with that in mind, part of her story. We don't want to equalize the personas, we want to equalize the accurate and fair representation of both genders.
About the lazy copout, you don't just gender swap, Link was mentioned as genderswap target, I just made a statement how stupid that entire idea is... Now what should be done, you write a new story based on a new character (male/female). Your logic is beyond flawed there... However, the thing we can't seem to fix in a short term is the sheer number stack of male vs female characters, but that is a problem in the game design studios where characters are being brainstormed about... ie: Dirty Bomb and Overwatch character line up are a step in the right direction though, compared to Team Fortress 2 for example...
I for one highly enjoyed a few games that had a female lead and had an accurate representation of woman instead of mimicking men (of course with magic game elements in there), here are a few.
Jade, Beyond Good and Evil (highly underrated!!!)
Lara Croft, Tomb Raider (obviously). Now she is a pure badass and the way she handles herself is still quite feminine. Not afraid of being a sexy las that can kick your ass
Samus Aran, Metroid (although this is quite the oddball and is a point for your case to some extent. We all thought she was a man, until she revealed her identity)
Portal, the thing is... She is quite anonymous, this is one of those "gender doesn't matter" issues, where the character lacks development
Zoey, Left for Dead. She is actually one of those lassies who can stand equal to their laddy counterparts. Mostly because the enemy is one of those overwhelming ones, so the bit of extra strength the lads have is completely tossed out the window with the instant takedowns and horde mechanics.
So it can definitely be done properly, but somehow there is this vibe, where the market just is lacking and that's the issue from a business point of view. Even if we have highly successful games with female leads.
Maybe an interesting read about a character named Kyasuka, from BERSERK
- there are many more female leads in various mediums, but this seems very related to this issue
She's a girl growing up into a badass wielding a sword, throughout quite a harsh life. Now she isn't the main character, but you do see how she copes with the warrior culture, which is completely dominated by men. However she does remain somewhat feminine, even when she's trying to mimic the men. The men only respect the warrior and she demands this respect through her amazing swordplay. She is also confronted by the fact she is a woman (on her period) on the battlefield and can't fight properly, can't move properly and sees how her strength is severely lacking when trying to muscle through. Her fighting style is based on being nimble and using her sword to deflect, not by using brute force. But since she can't move properly, she has huge problems trying to stay alive. Also she is annoyed by the other woman she meets who are just so overly feminine, shaped by the culture of the time. She stands out as a strong woman and feels uneasy with these other woman.
NOW THAT is awesome character development. I want to see that stuff, not just gender swaps or lazy story writing with woman just fully/closely mimicking men, just so they don't have to rewrite parts of the story (which is a sin in and of itself)
That's actually insulting to this entire discussion, we are different, we should embrace that and write stories that befit a character's background, gender and race. You can say it all you want, but when it comes down to it, men and women are different. If we want to respect both men and women, we need to avoid having them behave the same, we should develop characters based on the evolutionary differences we have! Kyasuka is a very good example where she does try to act like a man. But in the end, to climb up the ladder, she has to find her strengths in the fact she is a badass woman. It is part of her, who she is!
Also this entire issue is totally unrelated to this game right here.
We have an anonymous character, lacking any kind of backstory. So here gender/race doesn't even matter and should be a choice, just to add to the game. But it does matter once a character has had character development and is fleshed out. What we need is more female main characters, who are accurately represented, but tell that to the suits with money who only want games designed through a set formula for max cashflow (innovation has died in big business gaming land, we need indies to innovate!)
Calarand77lurking in general forumsJoin Date: 2016-01-22Member: 211786Members
Thank you, @EverReddy for saying what I've been trying to say ever since this discussion started, but... I never had the courage to actually join in. Why? Because of reactions just like the ones you've quoted. Because of the flood of disagrees that would come, and overall eye-rolling, and telling me there are bigger, more important problems than having a female model in a computer game like Subnautica... than letting me become a part of the game to the fullest, just like all the males can do and take it for granted.
It's not true that gender does not matter for a first person game, especially for the kind of first person that is presented in Subnautica, where you actually see the player character's body when you look down. Go log in and check it out. You not only have a flat chest, but also a clearly noticeable bulge right below. Regardless of visibility, though, women have all the right to feel uncomfortable playing a male character, just like many men would start protesting if a female model was the only available option.
If you try to tell me that it's a non issue and that women just blow the situation out of proportions... well, do a simple test before you speak up. The simplest way to check if you are being sexist towards women is to imagine the roles being reversed. Don't write it on a public forum, because it's the internet, no one can tell if you're telling the truth, just use your imagination and be brutally honest with yourself. If what you take as perfectly fine when done by a man suddenly becomes gross, wrong, disgusting and/or unacceptable when done by a woman... you have a problem.
For years I've been watching the discussions and arguments used by various developers for not including an option for female character as a protagonist. Frankly, they are all ridiculous, and UbiSoft took the crown not too long ago, saying that animating a woman is too difficult and too costly for them to bother with. Sure, if you want to sexualize a female character, make her sway her hips to the point of injuring her spine - and let's not forget the ever-important boobs physics, because they have to jiggle to entertain a male eye - then yes, it can get ridiculously costly. The trick, however, is that the exact same set of animations for male and female characters would work just fine, as many modders have proved so far. BioWare's Dragon Age 2 is the best example here, where a player made mod giving female protagonist a male's set of animations is one of the most popular mods to this day. Point is that adding a female protagonist - as an option and available from the start- should not be about developers including a female character for men to tickle their fancies, but for women to enjoy, to finally become an integral part of the in-game world... a part other than a decoration for a male character.
When I am told that my gender is less important, that my gender's inclusion into the game's world would bring no improvement, that it's not needed, not necessary, not wanted... I not only feel hurt and offended as a woman, but as a person, most of all. Because yes, such arguments and attitude make me feel like a second class human being, who should just shut up and let the betters (i.e. males) take over. And that's wrong on too many levels for me to explain it all over again here.
Personally, I can wait for the female model to be included until after game's launch, I can be generous just like women have been generous for ages giving men priority in everything. That doesn't make the current absence of it right, however.
The devs said it would be too much work right now and it's also a very low priority; maybe after 1.0
Not sure as to why though, they can outsource the voice over work as they usually do and the animations... I mean, professional animators can slap that together rather quickly I'd assume... My guess is the biggest part are having the voice overs and animations hooked up to the game code, but surely that is tied to libraries, which can easily pull from the animation graphs and animate the character...
This definitely shouldn't be a job that has the entire team tied up for weeks...
@Calarand77
"Because of reactions just like the ones you've quoted."
Hi that would be me, so you're going to pull the victim and the sexist card here
Perhaps read my previous post, I never disagreed, I just stated as to why some of the claims made here are utter nonsense or completely out of context. I actually want more games with good characters and actually don't care about the gender. But as I explained here -previous post, it has to be done properly and respectfully. Equality, you lot keep using that word, I'm pretty sure you're applying it to the wrong part of the problem...
@Kouji_San You keep referring to 'gender swapping' and yet I already said that's not what I'm talking about at all. You're also failed to answer any of the questions I asked. Also, at what point did I mention anything being PC? Surely by insinuating that somehow I have, by being the one to bring it up, you have by your own definition attempted to use it to shut down the discussion under the guise of 'you've brought up things being PC so your argument is somehow invalid'.
So your main point seems to be that men and women are physically different, and it is that physical difference that defines an individual's personality, mentality and physical ability, rather than the fact that in our society women are raised to be 'feminine' and men to be 'masculine'. That for a person of either gender to act contrary to those social constructs is somehow unrealistic. And I get that way of thinking to a point, I used to make exactly the same 'men and women are different and we should embrace those differences' argument once. But stepping outside socially prescribed gender norms for a moment, why does owning one set of genitals mean you will act in the same way as every other human being with the same genitals? I mean, do you believe in horoscopes as well; that everyone on the planet born within the same few days is going to have one of the same 12 things happen to them? Are you really saying that every woman acts the same way? Does every man? I mean, I'm a guy, so does that mean I can't ever be scared, or cry, or be good with kids, because those are considered by some to be things that only women are allowed to do? Why do men and women have to be 'masculine' or 'feminine'? Why can't they be neither, or both? Why is such a thing unrealistic? I know many women who are far braver, more intelligent, emotionally stronger and physically fitter than many men, and they're pretty real to me. Or are you saying that they're somehow unnatural?
Have you ever played Mass Effect by the way? Quite a popular series, had a kick-ass main character (Commander Shepard) as a guy on all the marketing, but you could make the character female if you wanted. I don't recall any issues there, in fact it was hailed in the main as being brilliantly progressive, not pandering to political correctness. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how that feature made the game somehow unrealistic.
As for things being being insulting, I'd say the term "an accurate portrayal of women" pretty much covers that. I mean, what exactly is an accurate portrayal of women? Because by definition you're encompassing ALL women there, not just the ones who happen to fall into the 'feminine' pigeon hole. Or are women who aren't 'feminine' not actually valid women? Does the same apply to male characters too? And what exactly is 'mimicking men' and why would doing so be unnatural? Can women only be kick-ass if they're feminine and 'sexy'?
And my apologies for the use of selective quotes there, but they are terms you used, so some clarification would be useful.
At the end of the day the natural progression of the 'men and women are biologically different' argument is how women ended up being treated like baby-making machines chained to the sink with no vote. Thankfully things have progressed some way from the days when that was the case, so lets not head back there.
We do agree on one thing though. There's absolutely no valid reason not to have a female character in Subnautica, although I'd be intrigued to hear what kind of backstory you think would change that.
@Calarand77
"Because of reactions just like the ones you've quoted."
Hi that would be me, so you're going to pull the victim and the sexist card here
I'll add to this discussion again in a more meaningful way later, but right now, can you answer this:
What is the "victim card"? Are we not allowed to find the things you say upsetting and disrespectful (I mean, you've literally been trying to tell us who we as women are)? Are we not allowed to say that, in hopes you might understand what you are doing? Do we have to bite our lips and let you bulldozer over us with, frankly, MRA talk because otherwise we're "pulling the victim card"? How come you aren't "pulling the victim card" when you accuse others of "pulling the victim card"?
Like, my strategy has been to ignore you. That seems about the only alternative here considering you don't give any indication that you care that you are hurting people.
@Calarand77
"Because of reactions just like the ones you've quoted."
Hi that would be me, so you're going to pull the victim and the sexist card here
Perhaps read my previous post, I never disagreed, I just stated as to why some of the claims made here are utter nonsense or completely out of context. I actually want more games with good characters and actually don't care about the gender. But as I explained here -previous post, it has to be done properly and respectfully. Equality, you lot keep using that word, I'm pretty sure you're applying it to the wrong part of the problem...
You keep talking about doing things respectfully, and yet when someone says to you that they feel offended by something, you dismiss their feelings as 'playing the victim card'. How exactly is that in any way respectful? If your daughter/sister/wife/girlfriend came to you saying she was upset because someone had called said they were unnatural or not feminine enough, would you seriously tell them to stop playing the victim card?
And who are 'you lot' exactly?
It's great that you're happy to see more female characters, but you seem to enjoy painting everyone a prescribed group with the same brush and have a very narrow view of what women are and/or should be.
So... I don't tend to post much on forums and tend to keep to myself for the most part, but I do skulk these forums to keep up with development and to read suggestions from people in this community.
On that note I hate to draw this and hate to bring this up because as previously stated by another member of the community, gender really shouldn't be a factor. As a female player of Subnautica and many other games I personally have never been too irked by the representation of female characters in games, but maybe that's because I've grown up on pretty sexist games anyway; it never phased me or never crossed my mind.
I appreciate that a lot of women here in this thread have a strong stand point on how women are presented in games, and I accept it; but in saying that, there are the few of us out there, that actually do not mind. I play games like I read books, I watch movies like I play games, I don't spend too much time judging each character for their every interaction with another on a single scene, I don't blow up over a side boob.
But on that note, if the people here who really do feel strongly about this want change, then arguing about it with people on a forum of a indie game is the least likely place to get your opinions noticed, I understand that it's one bit at a time, but in the same light, you are also arguing against people who, like you, clearly have their own opinions on how genders should be presented within games.
Also I would like to state, this sort of topic is very sensitive as we have already seen, and personally I am a gamer that not only plays games, but also makes them. This sort of situation causes turmoil and makes women look even more bitter than need be, I know that you aren't trying to come across that way, but look at it from an outside perspective, you are only making it look worse than it really is.
People that make games, are also artists, and sometimes you need to understand when you are infringing on artistic integrity, should we really be controlling what art is just because a few people don't like certain things? It's something that needs to be answered, but at the same time, answering it could be damning.
All in all, I don't think it's worth yelling and screaming at eachother in this thread, everyone has opinions, and it's quite clear that the people who are still here at this point in the thread, are people who are very firmly set in what they believe. So hey, games are games, let's just let the developers do their thing and release their content at the pace which they see fit, they'll get to the female character model implementation eventually. All in due time!
Sorry for the ramble I wont be responding to any quotes that are made of my comments since I don't want this thread to get to an uncontrollable point, I don't think a thread like this should be locked, instead should be nurtured and looked upon with endearment from the devs and community.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2016
@EverReddy I never said, you or anyone in here is hiding behind politically correctness, I meant companies do it to conform to invalid or out of context and very vocal critique, so they don't get bad PR... The rest was slapped behind a "el offtopic", I just despise Political Correctness, is all
However you're actually ignoring the mountains of evidence evolution has given us... Women are feminine, men are masculine those are tied evolutionary behavior patterns. Our social constructs, they are in essence based on those, but never once did I mention they are set in stone or even mention them (social constructs) at all.
Oh not all men, not all woman... Do I really have to say, not all? I mean come on now, I assumed you'd get that, of course there are exceptions, however ignoring facts of the majority won't make them go away. Of course men and woman can have traits of the other gender, but by saying that you are at least acknowledging the fact that they are inherently more related to a specific gender. Men are just as emotional as woman, we humans are an emotional mess. But men show it by aggression while woman simply lack the testosterone over all, to be as aggressive as men are. See where I'm going with this, we are different and handle things differently. And the aggression part is just one thing and no that isn't 100% tied to social constructs, those are just the tricks we learn during life, but in our core we are different and we can't change those differences.
Mass effect is a game which has a character creator and is an RPG, those are outside the usual character writing realm and is entirely based around creating your own persona and character, with a story which is in essence completely genderless as in it doesn't matter what you are. The story actually tends to follow the character you've created instead of you following a story based on a character. Complete unlike the games I meant, where a character has been designed by the game designers and already has a backstory, who is he where does he come from (or she, before I get that shitstorm on me ). There is a huge difference, Fallout, Skyrim and the likes are the same in that regard of RPG/scripted events
Again, not all... It's very insulting to both men and women by not acknowledging we are different. Like I said we should embrace those EVOLUTIONARY differences, I actually used the extreme scale for heroes to add extra emphasis to it, but that doesn't meant there are... Exceptions (NOT ALL )
How come you're bringing in the "treatment of women based on evolutionary traits or rather biological differences" in here, that wasn't even part of the discussions. We all know in civilized society we give equal rights to people regardless of race/gender. That has nothing to do with their biological differences, we don't judge based on how you were born into this world (gender/ethnicity), unless one is indeed a bigoted sexistic racist bastard. But, why should we than take the extra step to disregard the fact that women and men have different behavior. Different behavior doesn't mean they can't achieve the same goals in life, just they have different ways of achieving said goals. And there's nothing wrong with that!
And this also has no place in this discussion, we are talking about characters in a game, an interactive medium in which you are quicker to identify yourself or relate to the character you're playing, but at least acknowledge the differences out of respect for both genders... Oh yeah, almost forgot... Not all...
@EverReddy (and kinda aimed at @DrownedOut as well) at least be upset for valid reasons and not because of points that weren't even made and then taking it personal... Being upset when confronted with facts does not give one any special privilege. There is no such thing as "I have the right not to feel insulted", that is censorship in it's purest form. Also, putting words in my mouth is dishonest, so please check yourself before you wreck yourself "You lot" refers to the people up in here drawing wrong conclusions or placing the issue somewhere where it has no context.
Here's a tip, don't get so offended when confronted. You're making it personal, when in fact I was merely correcting the conclusions made. Not directed at anyone... I'm not narrow minded, I'm merely trying to point out the various flaws and misdirections made in this thread about the actual subject at hand that is quite obvious, but somehow the spotlight is being aimed at something completely different, which has a lot of similarities to the actual point, but is skewed and off target.
Now if that is too much to handle, because people are not capable of acknowledging this blatant dishonesty and clear as day point. The discussion is done, similarly to pulling those cards I mentioned. Going around in circles using non-points isn't productive in any way shape or form. I've said my peace and you know what I have posted. But if points made are deliberately misunderstanding, I'm done. What I've said shouldn't offend anyone who can read what actually said, instead of reading in between the lines to aid your own points.
Like I said, I'm all for it. But at least be honest about it...
@DrownedOut pulling a victim card as in calling me sexist (two cards actually, playing the victim and calling me sixist), which is completely untrue and then somehow trying to use that as a point against me. That is a victim card, dishonesty to avoid points made because of "not wanting to be offended", I've said in the paragraph above, if you truly read what I wrote it shouldn't offend, unless you are pulling it apart and drawing conclusions based on that...
I never told you who you should be as a woman and if I did, which I didn't Than that would mean I'm also telling men who they should be as a man. So, in all fairness, if that point was even made, at least I did it EQUALLY a point I didn't make, mind you...
Also ignoring me, because I'm "hurting" people, what kind of nonsense is that... I know it is a sensitive topic and a complex one at that, but if me stating things that somehow personally offend you. I can't help you with that, I deal in logic and honesty. You can bet an opinion will be offensive to someone, somewhere, but if the opinion holds true it is still valid. In a normal society we develop personal shields against being offended, so we can still discuss and see who is wrong and who is right, instead of shutting down and playing the cardgame
Heck the length of this bloody text is starting to get out of hand If wrong conclusions weren't drawn and people didn't get offended so quickly. I wouldn't even have to explain all this stuff. But just because I am not a yes man, I get flak... Victim card pulled on my part, stop the AA, I just passing through
@Kouji_San I'm not sure why you think I'm getting upset or taking it personally here (I'm not a woman after all), and nowhere in this discussion has anyone ever said "I have the right not to feel insulted". People have just called things as they see them from their perspective. As someone once said though, putting words into other people's mouths is dishonest, so please check yourself before you wreck yourself. I think that was it.
Also, a tip, if your trying not to make things personal, taking a condescending tone and dismissing someone else's feelings by saying they're just playing the 'victim card' isn't going to help you any on that score.
You say you were correcting assumptions made, but I'm not even sure what the assumptions are I'm supposed to have made. If anything they were misunderstandings rather than anything deliberate, but I did ask several times for clarification on points you made, but you didn't answer any of them. I also quoted you in an attempt to avoid such misunderstandings, but you didn't like it when I did that.
It seems to me that the crux of our disagreement is that you feel that human beings are slaves to the evolutionary process (if indeed that's what it is) and rather than try to fight it, we should embrace it. I disagree and think that there's much more to it than that (this blog post says it better than I could), and that the way we are brought up and our lived experiences define who we are far more than our genes (although they do play some part). Given that this subject is hotly debated by people with far more knowledge on the subject than you or I however (unless you have a PHD in neurology or sociology?), I don't think either of us has the right to pull out the 'fact card' card either way. You have your opinion and I have mine, but neither grants the right to dismiss someone else's feelings and experiences as irrelevant.
And you say "we don't want to equalize the personas, we want to equalize the accurate and fair representation of both genders", but who gets to decide what's fair exactly? I mean, in all seriousness, if you only answer one question I've asked, what *is* fair in this instance?
But even if you are 100% correct, personally I think we should still be looking to rise above pigeon-holing people based on any particular genetic trait. We should be actively encouraging people to be who they want to be, not impose restrictions on them or telling them that women mimicking men looks and feels highly unnatural.
Comments
Also, why not? It is the correct term, and I freely refer to men as being male. No one has complained before.
I'm sorry what? They mean the exact same thing...
Unfair representation for female leads? Could it be that maybe, just maybe the market is simply not there (smaller) or storytellers want their main characters to be male, we can't force them into a story with a particular gender, where the gender choice is simply out of place, now can we? The same goes for movies/books/any kind of story really... It's just more of a personal thing with games, because of the interactivity compared to other mediums...
I mean, let's be honest here. Equality means fair representation of a character (story/background). But, males and females are completely different creatures and behave differently. As I said some stories are better suited with a male protagonist, others with a female one. The point is, what story does a game designer want to tell, that is where the gender choice for the main character lies. Not at the point of character creation before the story, mind you... Also as I said, this mostly hold true for games with a character with depth and a story... Subnautica has more anonymity, so gender choice is more likely in any case...
Okay, fair enough. I didn't mean it that way. I do think there's a bias at play, but not a conscious one. Suppose the scenario here is that the lot of you is male (which I suspect from details here and there) and you are all being "gender doesn't matter" and "resources/time could be spend better" towards the female option, while the topic starter and I are both female and say it does matter to us (and ScubaMatt even claimed his wife might play when the female model is implemented). That would contextualize this discussion, no? Or maybe I am wrong and the majority of you is female - that too would be valuable to me because it would be far less me feeling like I have to justify my existence.
Most people who use "female" as a noun do not use "male" as a noun nearly as much and there's an unpleasant context behind that. Not saying anything about your use of it here, but I do request not to use it when talking to me.
Anyways, your own gender actually has no bearing on the discussion at hand at all... Both genders tend to play both... genders (dammit stop the wordplay
However that would be basically saying, we as males can't talk about this subject or have an opinion on the matter, because we're male. I for one have stated the reasons why things are as they are in gaming lands, good single players games have fleshed out characters based on the gender of a character, be it female or male (heck even race). Survival/"MMO"RPG games are in their own category...
But what you're implying is similar to this, two buddies going to a movie:
Bob: That movie sucks!
John: Wait, are you an actor or director? (good buddies would know this, but stay with me here)
Bob: No, I just don't like the movie. I really hate it, it has no content and the acting is really bad
John: Well you can't say that, if you don't make movies yourself or star in them...
Bob: um...
See the issue...
[edit]
I've actually never used "woman/man/female/male/girl/boy" when talking to people. That would be a really weird conversation, wouldn't it. We have names, those are usually easier to slap into a conversation lol. And if you know a person, even names tend to not be used as often either
As teenage girl I was playing Pacman when it was a new fangled thing, so myself and many others have seen the progression of gaming over many many (many many) years. It is just a fact that male avatars or gaming heroes or whatever are far more usual than female. It is also just a fact that more women care about it then men. Some women care more about it then others. I fall somewhere in the middle. Not because I like it that women are under represented, but because I am just getting to old to get all that worked up about it. In this situation it is an unfinished game so I feel like it is kind of our jobs as players of unfinished games to offer suggestions, point out bugs, give encouragement and so forth. Also this is one of those games where it just really doesn't matter if the survivor is male or female so why not give the player a choice.
For the one person who talked about Ark. Since that is a multiplayer game it seems more relevant to have female avatars. I can't imagine anyone whether they are man, woman, gay, straight, or other would find it interesting to only be stuck looking at everyone being a male. That would just be boring.
As for all the other stuff, men, think about the women in your life that you love. Mothers, sisters, daughters, grandmothers. Women are just people who want to see themselves reflected in the activities and art that they love. What is so wrong with that, that it would lead to such hostility? Just because we ask?
Women, let's remember that there are just way more men making video games then there are women. It is only natural that they are most likely going to represent who they are in their art. I truly just don't believe that in most cases there is a clutch of evil men out there intent on only making male avatars. There is some extreme misogyny in the gaming industry, but I don't think it serves to assume that it is everywhere. And when we run across it, which will happen pretty much anywhere we dare to speak of it ... It is just so much easier to ignore those guys. Trust me, nothing you say will change their outlook, so just talk with the good guys. There are tons of them around.
Now, back to this game and the subject of this thread ... Let's me just say I really love the female avatar. I look forward to having it in the game! Let's go diving men and women!!
The only anti female character model gamers are a very vocal very unpleasant minority. Female gamers want female characters as an option (duh), and most male gamers ALSO want that option to be there, for themselves or for others even if all they ever do with it is feel nice about having had the option when they pick the alternative.
When someone is arguing against harmless beneficial choice... they have some sort of agenda. The cloak of "most gamers don't want it" or "its too hard for the developers to have even ONE whole alternative character model!" are thin and transparent veneers on something nasty.
Mind you subnautica probably isn't the game for this argument. The female model is woefully late in appearing sure, but I'm pretty certain it's on it's way. Unless they cut it... then people would be well justified to be pissed.
Now, about that phone. I hope you don't carry it in your pocket ever!
Representation in gaming is not, at least to me, on the same level as voting/reproductive rights or equitable pay. However, I do vote with my wallet and support games with female protagonists and/or creators where applicable. I do also tend to support developers who have good ideas such as this game.
I agree with those who have said that the player in this particular game is anonymous, and as far as even the narrative goes the presence of wetsuit boobs won't make a bit of difference. Unless the devs want it to, of course. I am tickled that these devs thought to make a female model but if they hadn't I would have been happy to play as a scrawny pair of hands and legs.
I also don't think Link should get a sex change. To me, since the NES Link has been a guy. Give us a new storyline within that world with a female character and I'll play the crap out of it! I'm not upset about the idea, especially not enough to troll or condone flaming or trolling and I found the business of gamergate to be thoroughly disgusting.
Here's the thing...the creators are private citizens and as such are not obligated to include anything to suit anyone, although these guys here do seem to try to make their player community mostly happy. Nobody is actually entitled to be represented. This is not equal employment or civil rights. If you want more of what you want, then by all means you can ask for it and support games that fit your idea of what should be. Support those games when they show up. Make the games you like hugely successful and you'll see more of them.
Enjoy this awesome, chillaxing game. And when our new boobs arrive enjoy those too!
Even if you don't like the color...
They could just give both models gloves.
Enjoy this awesome, chillaxing game. And when our new boobs arrive enjoy those too!
Even if you don't like the color...
They could just give both models gloves.[/quote]
Wait ... The boobs are a weird color!?
Yo, yomama (sorry, couldn't stop myself)
I am pretty much in the same lane you are with all this. Especially the "female" part. I guess I totally missed the memo on that being a derogatory label. When did that happen?
And poor Link! How did he get pulled into all of this? He was just walking around opening chests and taking down bad guys last I heard of him. We should just let him be HIM, and move the on.
Peace out, my female sister!
Hey, I just thought of a good reason to not have boobs in this game...uh...when does the PC take off the wetsuit? Yeah. Crawly feeling just imagining that.
Mod edit: Removed Tumblr image.
Let's not import arguments from other websites, ok? If you want to argue with someone, you can go and do it on their page.
Sometimes men say stuff in really stupid ways without thinking about how it really sounds. My husband does it constantly, but I'm not going to burn him alive with a flamethrower. (probably) And sometimes women who have just had enough of it get really pissed off about it (rightfully so) and vent it off.
In the end we are all human and say and do stupid stuff and need to just not look for the drama in it all.
And Charlie, if by some chance you drop by here and read this, ... Of course it is worth it. Women love your awesome game and it's always worth it to reach out to as many paying customers as you possible can. Each happy paying customer brings in more happy paying customer. As far as the time line. No rush at all, work on the core game first for sure, just do it eventually so we don't have to rise up in revolt and totally swamp your base, and feed your sea moth to the fishes.
Well, despite the fact that there are numerous conversations going on about gender equality in gaming at the moment, the real irony here is that you're attempting to exactly what you're saying other people can't do. While I've yet to see anyone here claiming to speak for any group, you're basically dismissing the lived experiences of a number of people as what you say is fact, and not just (by your own standards) your lone opinion.
And again, you're dismissing someone else's experiences. How can you really say that something doesn't matter to the people are saying it matters to them? I could just as easily say I don't think your opinions matter to you. Would that make me right?
Doesn't matter TO YOU. And maybe it doesn't matter to some other people as well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to anyone.
I imagine if we all woke up tomorrow to find that the gender of every character in computer gaming had been swapped, it'd matter to a lot of the people who say it doesn't matter today.
Um, those statements are in themselves totally sexist. What you're actually saying is that 'sometimes a game just has a role more befitting a male character as defined by traditional western social norms'. There is NO role that cannot be filled by either gender, unless you're defining your roles by inherently sexist gender stereotypes. I mean, as you were typing that, what roles were you thinking of that were more befitting a male character, and why could that role not be filled by a female one?
And as for men and women behaving differently that's total rubbish. People behave differently, regardless of gender. The argument that there's some kind of 'normal' man or woman, or that majority of men behave in one, clearly defined way and the majority of women behave in another is demonstrably nonsense, and the idea that they do or should is actively harmful, to men as well as women.
Again, why should gender matter beyond attempting to market your product/story to a particular demographic? Name one story where characters could not possibly have been a different gender, beyond conforming to currently prevailing gender stereotypes? Simply following the norm and failing to address it's shortcomings is the lazy cop out, not the other way around.
I agree that not *every* game requires the option to play either gender. No one (that I heard of) complained about only being able to play a female character in Portal for example, but then we get to play as male characters in 99% of all other games. I'm sure once the gaming industry represents women in a much more representative (and not overly sexualised) way it'll be much less of an issue, but for now the question here shouldn't be 'why?' but 'why not?'. Personally I think that wherever possible, male and female models should be included at the same time, not have one added in later as an afterthought when all the other 'important' stuff is done. Being equally represented is important to a lot of people.
As I've said before, if those percentages were the other way around, I'm sure it'd matter to a lot more guys. The trick here is not to assume your view of the world is the default. Just because something doesn't matter to you, just because you haven't or can't experience the world in the same way others do, that doesn't make those experiences any less valid.
El offtopic: not entirely related to this subject, but I just hate the cowardly hiding behind this PC crap
Of course we want fair representation, but at least represent women and men accurately. It is an evolutionary fact that women and men are physically, psychologically different, they behave and react differently to certain things. On the extreme spectrum where hero characters are usually represented, men are overall much bigger, stronger and aggressive, while women tend to be quicker, nimble and observant. These things are completely ignored in this discussion, heck we'd end up with female leads mimicking what men do in games, which looks and feels highly unnatural. Unless a female character has been designed with that in mind, part of her story. We don't want to equalize the personas, we want to equalize the accurate and fair representation of both genders.
About the lazy copout, you don't just gender swap, Link was mentioned as genderswap target, I just made a statement how stupid that entire idea is... Now what should be done, you write a new story based on a new character (male/female). Your logic is beyond flawed there... However, the thing we can't seem to fix in a short term is the sheer number stack of male vs female characters, but that is a problem in the game design studios where characters are being brainstormed about... ie: Dirty Bomb and Overwatch character line up are a step in the right direction though, compared to Team Fortress 2 for example...
I for one highly enjoyed a few games that had a female lead and had an accurate representation of woman instead of mimicking men (of course with magic game elements in there), here are a few.
- Jade, Beyond Good and Evil (highly underrated!!!)
- Lara Croft, Tomb Raider (obviously). Now she is a pure badass and the way she handles herself is still quite feminine. Not afraid of being a sexy las that can kick your ass
- Samus Aran, Metroid (although this is quite the oddball and is a point for your case to some extent. We all thought she was a man, until she revealed her identity)
- Portal, the thing is... She is quite anonymous, this is one of those "gender doesn't matter" issues, where the character lacks development
- Zoey, Left for Dead. She is actually one of those lassies who can stand equal to their laddy counterparts. Mostly because the enemy is one of those overwhelming ones, so the bit of extra strength the lads have is completely tossed out the window with the instant takedowns and horde mechanics.
So it can definitely be done properly, but somehow there is this vibe, where the market just is lacking and that's the issue from a business point of view. Even if we have highly successful games with female leads.Maybe an interesting read about a character named Kyasuka, from BERSERK
- there are many more female leads in various mediums, but this seems very related to this issue
NOW THAT is awesome character development. I want to see that stuff, not just gender swaps or lazy story writing with woman just fully/closely mimicking men, just so they don't have to rewrite parts of the story (which is a sin in and of itself)
That's actually insulting to this entire discussion, we are different, we should embrace that and write stories that befit a character's background, gender and race. You can say it all you want, but when it comes down to it, men and women are different. If we want to respect both men and women, we need to avoid having them behave the same, we should develop characters based on the evolutionary differences we have! Kyasuka is a very good example where she does try to act like a man. But in the end, to climb up the ladder, she has to find her strengths in the fact she is a badass woman. It is part of her, who she is!
Also this entire issue is totally unrelated to this game right here.
We have an anonymous character, lacking any kind of backstory. So here gender/race doesn't even matter and should be a choice, just to add to the game. But it does matter once a character has had character development and is fleshed out. What we need is more female main characters, who are accurately represented, but tell that to the suits with money who only want games designed through a set formula for max cashflow (innovation has died in big business gaming land, we need indies to innovate!)
It's not true that gender does not matter for a first person game, especially for the kind of first person that is presented in Subnautica, where you actually see the player character's body when you look down. Go log in and check it out. You not only have a flat chest, but also a clearly noticeable bulge right below. Regardless of visibility, though, women have all the right to feel uncomfortable playing a male character, just like many men would start protesting if a female model was the only available option.
If you try to tell me that it's a non issue and that women just blow the situation out of proportions... well, do a simple test before you speak up. The simplest way to check if you are being sexist towards women is to imagine the roles being reversed. Don't write it on a public forum, because it's the internet, no one can tell if you're telling the truth, just use your imagination and be brutally honest with yourself. If what you take as perfectly fine when done by a man suddenly becomes gross, wrong, disgusting and/or unacceptable when done by a woman... you have a problem.
For years I've been watching the discussions and arguments used by various developers for not including an option for female character as a protagonist. Frankly, they are all ridiculous, and UbiSoft took the crown not too long ago, saying that animating a woman is too difficult and too costly for them to bother with. Sure, if you want to sexualize a female character, make her sway her hips to the point of injuring her spine - and let's not forget the ever-important boobs physics, because they have to jiggle to entertain a male eye - then yes, it can get ridiculously costly. The trick, however, is that the exact same set of animations for male and female characters would work just fine, as many modders have proved so far. BioWare's Dragon Age 2 is the best example here, where a player made mod giving female protagonist a male's set of animations is one of the most popular mods to this day. Point is that adding a female protagonist - as an option and available from the start- should not be about developers including a female character for men to tickle their fancies, but for women to enjoy, to finally become an integral part of the in-game world... a part other than a decoration for a male character.
When I am told that my gender is less important, that my gender's inclusion into the game's world would bring no improvement, that it's not needed, not necessary, not wanted... I not only feel hurt and offended as a woman, but as a person, most of all. Because yes, such arguments and attitude make me feel like a second class human being, who should just shut up and let the betters (i.e. males) take over. And that's wrong on too many levels for me to explain it all over again here.
Personally, I can wait for the female model to be included until after game's launch, I can be generous just like women have been generous for ages giving men priority in everything. That doesn't make the current absence of it right, however.
Not sure as to why though, they can outsource the voice over work as they usually do and the animations... I mean, professional animators can slap that together rather quickly I'd assume... My guess is the biggest part are having the voice overs and animations hooked up to the game code, but surely that is tied to libraries, which can easily pull from the animation graphs and animate the character...
This definitely shouldn't be a job that has the entire team tied up for weeks...
@Calarand77
"Because of reactions just like the ones you've quoted."
Hi that would be me, so you're going to pull the victim and the sexist card here
Perhaps read my previous post, I never disagreed, I just stated as to why some of the claims made here are utter nonsense or completely out of context. I actually want more games with good characters and actually don't care about the gender. But as I explained here -previous post, it has to be done properly and respectfully. Equality, you lot keep using that word, I'm pretty sure you're applying it to the wrong part of the problem...
So your main point seems to be that men and women are physically different, and it is that physical difference that defines an individual's personality, mentality and physical ability, rather than the fact that in our society women are raised to be 'feminine' and men to be 'masculine'. That for a person of either gender to act contrary to those social constructs is somehow unrealistic. And I get that way of thinking to a point, I used to make exactly the same 'men and women are different and we should embrace those differences' argument once. But stepping outside socially prescribed gender norms for a moment, why does owning one set of genitals mean you will act in the same way as every other human being with the same genitals? I mean, do you believe in horoscopes as well; that everyone on the planet born within the same few days is going to have one of the same 12 things happen to them? Are you really saying that every woman acts the same way? Does every man? I mean, I'm a guy, so does that mean I can't ever be scared, or cry, or be good with kids, because those are considered by some to be things that only women are allowed to do? Why do men and women have to be 'masculine' or 'feminine'? Why can't they be neither, or both? Why is such a thing unrealistic? I know many women who are far braver, more intelligent, emotionally stronger and physically fitter than many men, and they're pretty real to me. Or are you saying that they're somehow unnatural?
Have you ever played Mass Effect by the way? Quite a popular series, had a kick-ass main character (Commander Shepard) as a guy on all the marketing, but you could make the character female if you wanted. I don't recall any issues there, in fact it was hailed in the main as being brilliantly progressive, not pandering to political correctness. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how that feature made the game somehow unrealistic.
As for things being being insulting, I'd say the term "an accurate portrayal of women" pretty much covers that. I mean, what exactly is an accurate portrayal of women? Because by definition you're encompassing ALL women there, not just the ones who happen to fall into the 'feminine' pigeon hole. Or are women who aren't 'feminine' not actually valid women? Does the same apply to male characters too? And what exactly is 'mimicking men' and why would doing so be unnatural? Can women only be kick-ass if they're feminine and 'sexy'?
And my apologies for the use of selective quotes there, but they are terms you used, so some clarification would be useful.
At the end of the day the natural progression of the 'men and women are biologically different' argument is how women ended up being treated like baby-making machines chained to the sink with no vote. Thankfully things have progressed some way from the days when that was the case, so lets not head back there.
We do agree on one thing though. There's absolutely no valid reason not to have a female character in Subnautica, although I'd be intrigued to hear what kind of backstory you think would change that.
I'll add to this discussion again in a more meaningful way later, but right now, can you answer this:
What is the "victim card"? Are we not allowed to find the things you say upsetting and disrespectful (I mean, you've literally been trying to tell us who we as women are)? Are we not allowed to say that, in hopes you might understand what you are doing? Do we have to bite our lips and let you bulldozer over us with, frankly, MRA talk because otherwise we're "pulling the victim card"? How come you aren't "pulling the victim card" when you accuse others of "pulling the victim card"?
Like, my strategy has been to ignore you. That seems about the only alternative here considering you don't give any indication that you care that you are hurting people.
You keep talking about doing things respectfully, and yet when someone says to you that they feel offended by something, you dismiss their feelings as 'playing the victim card'. How exactly is that in any way respectful? If your daughter/sister/wife/girlfriend came to you saying she was upset because someone had called said they were unnatural or not feminine enough, would you seriously tell them to stop playing the victim card?
And who are 'you lot' exactly?
It's great that you're happy to see more female characters, but you seem to enjoy painting everyone a prescribed group with the same brush and have a very narrow view of what women are and/or should be.
On that note I hate to draw this and hate to bring this up because as previously stated by another member of the community, gender really shouldn't be a factor. As a female player of Subnautica and many other games I personally have never been too irked by the representation of female characters in games, but maybe that's because I've grown up on pretty sexist games anyway; it never phased me or never crossed my mind.
I appreciate that a lot of women here in this thread have a strong stand point on how women are presented in games, and I accept it; but in saying that, there are the few of us out there, that actually do not mind. I play games like I read books, I watch movies like I play games, I don't spend too much time judging each character for their every interaction with another on a single scene, I don't blow up over a side boob.
But on that note, if the people here who really do feel strongly about this want change, then arguing about it with people on a forum of a indie game is the least likely place to get your opinions noticed, I understand that it's one bit at a time, but in the same light, you are also arguing against people who, like you, clearly have their own opinions on how genders should be presented within games.
Also I would like to state, this sort of topic is very sensitive as we have already seen, and personally I am a gamer that not only plays games, but also makes them. This sort of situation causes turmoil and makes women look even more bitter than need be, I know that you aren't trying to come across that way, but look at it from an outside perspective, you are only making it look worse than it really is.
People that make games, are also artists, and sometimes you need to understand when you are infringing on artistic integrity, should we really be controlling what art is just because a few people don't like certain things? It's something that needs to be answered, but at the same time, answering it could be damning.
All in all, I don't think it's worth yelling and screaming at eachother in this thread, everyone has opinions, and it's quite clear that the people who are still here at this point in the thread, are people who are very firmly set in what they believe. So hey, games are games, let's just let the developers do their thing and release their content at the pace which they see fit, they'll get to the female character model implementation eventually. All in due time!
Sorry for the ramble I wont be responding to any quotes that are made of my comments since I don't want this thread to get to an uncontrollable point, I don't think a thread like this should be locked, instead should be nurtured and looked upon with endearment from the devs and community.
However you're actually ignoring the mountains of evidence evolution has given us... Women are feminine, men are masculine those are tied evolutionary behavior patterns. Our social constructs, they are in essence based on those, but never once did I mention they are set in stone or even mention them (social constructs) at all.
Oh not all men, not all woman... Do I really have to say, not all? I mean come on now, I assumed you'd get that, of course there are exceptions, however ignoring facts of the majority won't make them go away. Of course men and woman can have traits of the other gender, but by saying that you are at least acknowledging the fact that they are inherently more related to a specific gender. Men are just as emotional as woman, we humans are an emotional mess. But men show it by aggression while woman simply lack the testosterone over all, to be as aggressive as men are. See where I'm going with this, we are different and handle things differently. And the aggression part is just one thing and no that isn't 100% tied to social constructs, those are just the tricks we learn during life, but in our core we are different and we can't change those differences.
Mass effect is a game which has a character creator and is an RPG, those are outside the usual character writing realm and is entirely based around creating your own persona and character, with a story which is in essence completely genderless as in it doesn't matter what you are. The story actually tends to follow the character you've created instead of you following a story based on a character. Complete unlike the games I meant, where a character has been designed by the game designers and already has a backstory, who is he where does he come from (or she, before I get that shitstorm on me
Again, not all... It's very insulting to both men and women by not acknowledging we are different. Like I said we should embrace those EVOLUTIONARY differences, I actually used the extreme scale for heroes to add extra emphasis to it, but that doesn't meant there are... Exceptions (NOT ALL
How come you're bringing in the "treatment of women based on evolutionary traits or rather biological differences" in here, that wasn't even part of the discussions. We all know in civilized society we give equal rights to people regardless of race/gender. That has nothing to do with their biological differences, we don't judge based on how you were born into this world (gender/ethnicity), unless one is indeed a bigoted sexistic racist bastard. But, why should we than take the extra step to disregard the fact that women and men have different behavior. Different behavior doesn't mean they can't achieve the same goals in life, just they have different ways of achieving said goals. And there's nothing wrong with that!
And this also has no place in this discussion, we are talking about characters in a game, an interactive medium in which you are quicker to identify yourself or relate to the character you're playing, but at least acknowledge the differences out of respect for both genders... Oh yeah, almost forgot... Not all...
@EverReddy (and kinda aimed at @DrownedOut as well) at least be upset for valid reasons and not because of points that weren't even made and then taking it personal... Being upset when confronted with facts does not give one any special privilege. There is no such thing as "I have the right not to feel insulted", that is censorship in it's purest form. Also, putting words in my mouth is dishonest, so please check yourself before you wreck yourself
Here's a tip, don't get so offended when confronted. You're making it personal, when in fact I was merely correcting the conclusions made. Not directed at anyone... I'm not narrow minded, I'm merely trying to point out the various flaws and misdirections made in this thread about the actual subject at hand that is quite obvious, but somehow the spotlight is being aimed at something completely different, which has a lot of similarities to the actual point, but is skewed and off target.
Now if that is too much to handle, because people are not capable of acknowledging this blatant dishonesty and clear as day point. The discussion is done, similarly to pulling those cards I mentioned. Going around in circles using non-points isn't productive in any way shape or form. I've said my peace and you know what I have posted. But if points made are deliberately misunderstanding, I'm done. What I've said shouldn't offend anyone who can read what actually said, instead of reading in between the lines to aid your own points.
Like I said, I'm all for it. But at least be honest about it...
@DrownedOut pulling a victim card as in calling me sexist (two cards actually, playing the victim and calling me sixist), which is completely untrue and then somehow trying to use that as a point against me. That is a victim card, dishonesty to avoid points made because of "not wanting to be offended", I've said in the paragraph above, if you truly read what I wrote it shouldn't offend, unless you are pulling it apart and drawing conclusions based on that...
I never told you who you should be as a woman and if I did, which I didn't
Also ignoring me, because I'm "hurting" people, what kind of nonsense is that... I know it is a sensitive topic and a complex one at that, but if me stating things that somehow personally offend you. I can't help you with that, I deal in logic and honesty. You can bet an opinion will be offensive to someone, somewhere, but if the opinion holds true it is still valid. In a normal society we develop personal shields against being offended, so we can still discuss and see who is wrong and who is right, instead of shutting down and playing the cardgame
Heck the length of this bloody text is starting to get out of hand
Also, a tip, if your trying not to make things personal, taking a condescending tone and dismissing someone else's feelings by saying they're just playing the 'victim card' isn't going to help you any on that score.
You say you were correcting assumptions made, but I'm not even sure what the assumptions are I'm supposed to have made. If anything they were misunderstandings rather than anything deliberate, but I did ask several times for clarification on points you made, but you didn't answer any of them. I also quoted you in an attempt to avoid such misunderstandings, but you didn't like it when I did that.
It seems to me that the crux of our disagreement is that you feel that human beings are slaves to the evolutionary process (if indeed that's what it is) and rather than try to fight it, we should embrace it. I disagree and think that there's much more to it than that (this blog post says it better than I could), and that the way we are brought up and our lived experiences define who we are far more than our genes (although they do play some part). Given that this subject is hotly debated by people with far more knowledge on the subject than you or I however (unless you have a PHD in neurology or sociology?), I don't think either of us has the right to pull out the 'fact card' card either way. You have your opinion and I have mine, but neither grants the right to dismiss someone else's feelings and experiences as irrelevant.
And you say "we don't want to equalize the personas, we want to equalize the accurate and fair representation of both genders", but who gets to decide what's fair exactly? I mean, in all seriousness, if you only answer one question I've asked, what *is* fair in this instance?
But even if you are 100% correct, personally I think we should still be looking to rise above pigeon-holing people based on any particular genetic trait. We should be actively encouraging people to be who they want to be, not impose restrictions on them or telling them that women mimicking men looks and feels highly unnatural.
OMG - Thank you SO MUCH for removing that. I was horrified when I saw it here.