Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.
Flamer as a buyable attachment or maybe as a secondary weapon is something I would still like the most. It does not need much damage, it is a support role and therefore should not occupy the main weapon slot.
I think the flamer as main weapon is impossible to balance.
I see a lot of confusion about how Crush works. Understandable, since it is a confusing mechanic that is not made clear anywhere. Crush actually has two separate effects. I will use skulk with 3 shells vs a0 marine as an example.
On players: Sends the same amount of outbound damage. If you have damage numbers on, you will still see 75, the number you would see without shells. A normal skulk would send 60 damage (let's say; I don't remember the actual proportion) to armor and the remaining 15 to health. This would bring the marine to 75 health and no armor, since 30 armor will eat up 60 damage. With crush, you still send 75 damage with each bite. But now 70 (let's say) goes to armor and 5 goes to health. I don't know the actual split because it makes no difference to the number of attacks it takes to kill a marine, at least for skulk and fade. But I'm pretty sure you can't "do more chip damage as lerk", since 160 eHP is still 160 eHP and you still output the same overall damage.
On structures: Sends more damage. I don't remember where the final numbers ended up, but now you will see 90 (let's say) instead of 75. It will take fewer attacks to destroy a structure.
I haven't seen Yaluzan's damage chart (which was definitely needed, thanks for making it), but I hope it confirms what I've said here. Otherwise I also don't understand Crush.
I see a lot of confusion about how Crush works. Understandable, since it is a confusing mechanic that is not made clear anywhere. Crush actually has two separate effects. I will use skulk with 3 shells vs a0 marine as an example.
On players: Sends the same amount of outbound damage. If you have damage numbers on, you will still see 75, the number you would see without shells. A normal skulk would send 60 damage to armor and the remaining 15 to health. This would bring the marine to 75 health and no armor, since 30 armor will eat up 60 damage. With crush, you still send 75 damage with each bite. But now 70 (let's say) goes to armor and 5 goes to health. I don't know the actual split because it makes no difference to the number of attacks it takes to kill a marine, at least for skulk and fade. But I'm pretty sure you can't "do more chip damage as lerk", since 160 eHP is still 160 eHP and you still output the same overall damage.
On structures: Sends more damage. I don't remember where the final numbers ended up, but now you will see 90 (let's say) instead of 75. It will take fewer attacks to destroy a structure.
I haven't seen Yaluzan's damage chart (which was definitely needed, thanks for making it), but I hope it confirms what I've said here. Otherwise I also don't understand Crush.
The damage chart shows that there is no difference at all on the damage output to a marine.
Making flamethrower cost 10 pres at least shows more clearly that it's not meant to be an 'upgrade', but tbh this is a duck tape fix.
Either make burn stack in intensity, or duration or increase the firerate and make the flamethrower 15/20 pres again.
Personally I'd like seeing the burn damage increased (damage over time) since it's what makes the flamethrower stand out from other marine weapons.
Also the hit-delay-hit-hit thing is still present, can someone confirm weather it's a bug or working as intended?
Because it's another big thing that makes the flamethrower feel not only useless but inconsistent during engagements.
Damage output to a marine is higher, # of bites to kill is not. I would need to test again to confirm.
Don't think so, all Crush does against players is increase the proportion of armor damage vs health damage nothing else.
If you bite twice an armor 0 marine, there is 10 hp left regardless of weither or not crush is equipped.
@The_Welsh_Wizard cool, thanks for letting me know. It always feels good to be right .
I've had a chance to look at the chart. Thank you, @migalski, for making it. Be careful when testing things in local servers. The UWE balance and hotfix mods aren't applied there, so things might be different out in the wild. I don't think they've added anything since 300 though so your chart is probably fine.
@Nordic as the chart confirms, crush does not do extra damage to marines. (Except for lerk bite, not sure what that's about.) The only situation I can think of where crush matters against players is a marine being spiked by a lerk without welders nearby while being medded; his armor (but not health, with meds) will go down a little faster, allowing a fade or skulk to swoop in a little earlier. I don't think this effect is significant. I could be wrong.
I've had a chance to look at the chart. Thank you, @migalski, for making it. Be careful when testing things in local servers. The UWE balance and hotfix mods aren't applied there, so things might be different out in the wild. I don't think they've added anything since 300 though so your chart is probably fine.
You can always subscribe to those mods and activate them before starting a listen server to ensure that you are running the same.
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edited May 2016
Hopefully I can clear up some of the confusion regarding Crush vs players...
But before I get to that, just want to briefly explain the other half of Crush.
It does not affect the Type of damage done. It just increases the damage done to structures only, by 7 / 14 / 21 percent based on the number of Shells. Simple.
Now, for the fun part: Damage against Players.
Whenever any damage is applied, a long series of calculations are performed. One of the variables in those calculations is "ArmorFractionUsed". The default ArmorFractionUsed is 70%. This denotes how much of the damage done will be deducted from Armor. The leftover amount (after armor damage is applied) will be deducted from Health. Crush increases the ArmorFractionUsed by up to 21%. It does not modify the amount of damage done. On the surface, this doesn't seem to useful. However, the less armor a Marine has, the less effective Medpacks are. Combine this effect with attacks like Lerk Spikes, and an attrition-like effect is gained. It essentially gains a diminishing factor on Medpacks during combat. Hopefully that clears things up.
The effect of crush on players seems extremely contrived and not very useful. Why have it in the first place, since anyone choosing crush will do so only on the basis of the structure damage bonus anyway?
The effect of crush on players seems extremely contrived and not very useful. Why have it in the first place, since anyone choosing crush will do so only on the basis of the structure damage bonus anyway?
^^ this right there..
If doing more armor damage to marines does not equal less bites to kill then what is the point?
From the way it sounds it's something that only really affects lerk spiking...
Yes, I understand that. But if an ability is changed majorly, it's pretty worrying if not one person thinks to re-check the tool tip. You know, the only source of information for your average player who does not go through the notes diligently and double check from the forums.
Furthermore, this is by far not the first time the tool tips are lacking or not updated.
Does this mean that good fades who were owning the game already before will now just wreck you with focus?
And wait untill they have acid rockets which some are already asking for.
Open the pauper's grave, a lot people ain't going to play long against things that gets you in a couple slices and can't barely track. It's a déjà vu.
Remember when a good alien player would get quick res for kills targeting easy preys (logic), fade in no time flat then bye bye the round, then bye bye new players (aka meat for fades).
On marine, the same players would get all the attention and stuff from the comm (logic), again, bye bye new players who would get nothing.
Yeah rewarding skilled players by making it easier for them to dominate is a pretty dumb move.. One reason i hate the tracking.. err i mean health bars so much..
If anything getting a bunch of kills should actually lower your pres gain...likewise a rookie who can barely get a kill every 10+ deaths should gain pres faster.
Of course that would have to be balanced somehow to prevent vets from suicide rushing onto structures for faster pres gain until fade..
Yes, I understand that. But if an ability is changed majorly, it's pretty worrying if not one person thinks to re-check the tool tip. You know, the only source of information for your average player who does not go through the notes diligently and double check from the forums.
Furthermore, this is by far not the first time the tool tips are lacking or not updated.
Ever played WoW? The game has always had glaring tooltip errors due the same reasons. And they have a much larger and more professional team building them. Sometimes these things get through, it's not the end of the world.
Crush is primarily intended to be used for the structure damage. But we also wanted to have some kind of small bonus in combat too, so it wouldn't feel totally useless there. It does not have any significant impacts like reducing the hit count it takes to kill marines, but it does have niche roles in increasing chip damage- which in turn can make it particularly useful on things like lerk spikes, bile, and anything for countering Exos.
Just because it doesn't reduce the bite count doesn't mean it's not useful- especially in the later game when marines get A2/A3 where you get bigger team fights and more sources of chip damage (but again it's primary purpose is killing structures).
One reason i hate the tracking.. err i mean health bars so much..
This point deserves a separate discussion but I disagree with you here. Exactly because of those health bars vet fades no longer look invincible. It was pretty disturbing before when you made a couple of meat shots and the fade kills you and flies away like it's nothing. Now you see he's barely alive and can do your best to finish him off! Same for onoses (onii?), before the team had to rely on the comm who convulsively tries to select the running away onos to check its health and then tell the team to chase it or retreat. Often it's too late because of the inevitable audio lag. Now everyone can see the status and work as a team by themselves. There's less room for metagame and bluff now but combat became much more intense and feels more just.
Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.
flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.
Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.
flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.
I still think it should be repurposed as a noob tube. Make it decent, but less efficient than the shotgun, so rookies can hold their ground with it, but will always be outclassed by shotgunners.
Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.
flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.
I still think it should be repurposed as a noob tube. Make it decent, but less efficient than the shotgun, so rookies can hold their ground with it, but will always be outclassed by shotgunners.
Ahm no. Give the flamer an own role in this game, don't make it into a half efficient shotgun.
Comments
I think the flamer as main weapon is impossible to balance.
On players: Sends the same amount of outbound damage. If you have damage numbers on, you will still see 75, the number you would see without shells. A normal skulk would send 60 damage (let's say; I don't remember the actual proportion) to armor and the remaining 15 to health. This would bring the marine to 75 health and no armor, since 30 armor will eat up 60 damage. With crush, you still send 75 damage with each bite. But now 70 (let's say) goes to armor and 5 goes to health. I don't know the actual split because it makes no difference to the number of attacks it takes to kill a marine, at least for skulk and fade. But I'm pretty sure you can't "do more chip damage as lerk", since 160 eHP is still 160 eHP and you still output the same overall damage.
On structures: Sends more damage. I don't remember where the final numbers ended up, but now you will see 90 (let's say) instead of 75. It will take fewer attacks to destroy a structure.
I haven't seen Yaluzan's damage chart (which was definitely needed, thanks for making it), but I hope it confirms what I've said here. Otherwise I also don't understand Crush.
The damage chart shows that there is no difference at all on the damage output to a marine.
Either make burn stack in intensity, or duration or increase the firerate and make the flamethrower 15/20 pres again.
Personally I'd like seeing the burn damage increased (damage over time) since it's what makes the flamethrower stand out from other marine weapons.
Also the hit-delay-hit-hit thing is still present, can someone confirm weather it's a bug or working as intended?
Because it's another big thing that makes the flamethrower feel not only useless but inconsistent during engagements.
Don't think so, all Crush does against players is increase the proportion of armor damage vs health damage nothing else.
If you bite twice an armor 0 marine, there is 10 hp left regardless of weither or not crush is equipped.
I've had a chance to look at the chart. Thank you, @migalski, for making it. Be careful when testing things in local servers. The UWE balance and hotfix mods aren't applied there, so things might be different out in the wild. I don't think they've added anything since 300 though so your chart is probably fine.
@Nordic as the chart confirms, crush does not do extra damage to marines. (Except for lerk bite, not sure what that's about.) The only situation I can think of where crush matters against players is a marine being spiked by a lerk without welders nearby while being medded; his armor (but not health, with meds) will go down a little faster, allowing a fade or skulk to swoop in a little earlier. I don't think this effect is significant. I could be wrong.
You can always subscribe to those mods and activate them before starting a listen server to ensure that you are running the same.
Only had time for two quick games so didn't have a chance to figure out what was causing it.
But before I get to that, just want to briefly explain the other half of Crush.
It does not affect the Type of damage done. It just increases the damage done to structures only, by 7 / 14 / 21 percent based on the number of Shells. Simple.
Now, for the fun part: Damage against Players.
Whenever any damage is applied, a long series of calculations are performed. One of the variables in those calculations is "ArmorFractionUsed". The default ArmorFractionUsed is 70%. This denotes how much of the damage done will be deducted from Armor. The leftover amount (after armor damage is applied) will be deducted from Health. Crush increases the ArmorFractionUsed by up to 21%. It does not modify the amount of damage done. On the surface, this doesn't seem to useful. However, the less armor a Marine has, the less effective Medpacks are. Combine this effect with attacks like Lerk Spikes, and an attrition-like effect is gained. It essentially gains a diminishing factor on Medpacks during combat. Hopefully that clears things up.
I'm fairly certain you're correct on this, and I'll be making adjustments to the sound's falloff to hopefully eliminate this problem.
^^ this right there..
If doing more armor damage to marines does not equal less bites to kill then what is the point?
From the way it sounds it's something that only really affects lerk spiking...
Yeah, I don't understand how something like that can slip through to patch release. It's like there's absolutely no proof reading or quality control.
Because it was nerfed after it was found to be too powerful with double damage?
Click: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130543/playtesting-positions-open-for-eu-and-na-regions-help-make-ns2-better#latest
Furthermore, this is by far not the first time the tool tips are lacking or not updated.
And wait untill they have acid rockets which some are already asking for.
Open the pauper's grave, a lot people ain't going to play long against things that gets you in a couple slices and can't barely track. It's a déjà vu.
Remember when a good alien player would get quick res for kills targeting easy preys (logic), fade in no time flat then bye bye the round, then bye bye new players (aka meat for fades).
On marine, the same players would get all the attention and stuff from the comm (logic), again, bye bye new players who would get nothing.
Yeah rewarding skilled players by making it easier for them to dominate is a pretty dumb move.. One reason i hate the tracking.. err i mean health bars so much..
If anything getting a bunch of kills should actually lower your pres gain...likewise a rookie who can barely get a kill every 10+ deaths should gain pres faster.
Of course that would have to be balanced somehow to prevent vets from suicide rushing onto structures for faster pres gain until fade..
Just because it doesn't reduce the bite count doesn't mean it's not useful- especially in the later game when marines get A2/A3 where you get bigger team fights and more sources of chip damage (but again it's primary purpose is killing structures).
flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.
I still think it should be repurposed as a noob tube. Make it decent, but less efficient than the shotgun, so rookies can hold their ground with it, but will always be outclassed by shotgunners.
Does crush increase bile damage then?
Yes- Crush effects all attacks.