Jail really isn't that bad, they make it sound like a big deal, but I invite everyone to come try it out, it's pretty chill in here. You get a cool new icon as a bonus.
Moderators too should be accountable for their actions, we shouldn't have to guess if they overstepped their boundaries.
We don't believe that diving into derailing public discussions every time we need to take action is conducive to an actual discussion or debate.
We have full accountability for our actions, as we have provided a reason to the individual without fail.
If you disagree with that reason at all... this is where you appeal by contacting that moderator or any other, either here or Discord. There is no "guessing" in this process whatsoever.
Censoring is not all moderators do or can do. Action taken may not always be appropriate. You assume that moderators will do the right thing. I think otherwise.
Sometimes they do the sensible thing and go "-snip-", other times they mock the poster by replacing their text, essentially putting words in their mouths. Perhaps they may begin to forget to colour their edits.
Or if they (you) edit the profile of their members as a practical joke @SquishpokePOOPFACE .
Maybe they also play musical chairs with bans, with one banning and the other unbanning.
There are also "simple mistakes" as I mentioned upthread although that has now been clarified as to be not allowed. Has there been any accountability for that?
I was really upset at what I perceived to be the changing of Squishpokes name for no reason, but I asked him about it and he said he requested it. I hope he will chime in here and confirm that for everyone else.
If he had not requested it, that would have been mod abuse without a doubt.
We have full accountability for our actions, as we have provided a reason to the individual without fail.
What happened to the moderator saying that he wishes that my community and servers should die? Nothing I have received a short message with a sorry or something.
Also here you can find in this old thread that no moderator ever moderated the thread. Everyone was just naming and shaming.
Good job moderators, you act really neutral at all.
I was really upset at what I perceived to be the changing of Squishpokes name for no reason, but I asked him about it and he said he requested it. I hope he will chime in here and confirm that for everyone else.
If he had not requested it, that would have been mod abuse without a doubt.
We have full accountability for our actions, as we have provided a reason to the individual without fail.
What happened to the moderator saying that he wishes that my community and servers should die? Nothing I have received a short message with a sorry or something.
Also here you can find in this old thread that no moderator ever moderated the thread. Everyone was just naming and shaming.
Good job moderators, you act really neutral at all.
I was really upset at what I perceived to be the changing of Squishpokes name for no reason, but I asked him about it and he said he requested it. I hope he will chime in here and confirm that for everyone else.
If he had not requested it, that would have been mod abuse without a doubt.
I remember that thread Aeglos. Just because I didn't act like upset in that thread, doesn't mean I was upset. I was pretty sure I PM'd squishpoke and Ironhorse about it back then to ask them about it. Squishpoke said he requested it. I was going to post a screenshot of that PM, but now I can't find it. I don't know anymore.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2016
Lol what a stretch @Aeglos !.. that was in good humor obviously with no one upset, was the only time I've ever done that and when I -as well as another admin- each asked him in a message separately whether he'd like it fixed he responded in a humorous version of "No".
If that's admin abuse to you then it makes sense why you think it's prevalent..
As for one moderator undoing a ban / undermining another moderator.. it doesn't happen anymore due to those aforementioned adjusting policies. Same goes for the snarky edits I am known for.
This shifting policy is all because we ARE receptive to the feedback provided in appeals and it's why I continue to request more of it.
But I do draw the line at users being able to warn moderators as you suggested.. that sounds ridiculous, especially since it'd just result in a complete lack of any moderation occurring. You have a clear appeals process for those like yourself who are admittedly biased and feel like actions taken aren't too be assumed as valid, we have no qualms providing a reason for our judgement and discussing things.
@wooza
Are you unable to separate my personal opinions from my moderation role?? Am I unable to provide an opinion in these forums because of my role? I don't think so.
Moderation actions will always be in orange color.
Also are you unaware of how naming and shaming works?? If you open a thread talking about yourself or your server, you willingly invite all the criticism you can handle, and we'll let you.
Conversely, if someone opens a thread to shame your name that is when we try to step in.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I see the point of mods also having there non mod private posts.
I see the point of starting afresh.. so regardless if moderation was poor or not in the past, to do it better now.
I also however have been keeping a silent but watchful eye as always on forum posts and discord chat. DC no like. While some people can go to far, most are just passionate about their talk. I havent seen many actions yet which would remotely call for any of the taken actions being taken.
Of course there is a chance that such actions are already modded out, but really.. ive seen a decline in modding quality for the last few months and I am in fact concerned.
Now I cant say how to run these forums or discord, its not my place. Just consider these 2 things, humour me here.
If you even have to warn/edit old moderators/forum admins about them breaking policy, or being told by folk like me (who usually dont see anything wrong with rule enforcement), that its snowballing out of proportion... did you miss something?
being told by folk like me (who usually dont see anything wrong with rule enforcement), that its snowballing out of proportion... did you miss something?
Nope.. we knew what we were experimenting with and what the fallout might look like.
However... that being said, officially, for all those still tracking this thread and those concerned : We are going to tone down our moderation efforts going forward.
This is both in response to feedback from many members both internally and within the community, as well as the fact that the forums have calmed down from the shitstorm that they were weeks ago.
Keep in mind if things get bad again with repeated threads, drama, and out of control name calling - that we will pivot once again in response.
Thank you to those who came to us or me with your concerns and feedback, and thank you for the understanding you've extended thus far.
Lol what a stretch @Aeglos !.. that was in good humor obviously with no one upset, was the only time I've ever done that and when I -as well as another admin- each asked him in a message separately whether he'd like it fixed he responded in a humorous version of "No".
If that's admin abuse to you then it makes sense why you think it's prevalent..
As for one moderator undoing a ban / undermining another moderator.. it doesn't happen anymore due to those aforementioned adjusting policies. Same goes for the snarky edits I am known for.
This shifting policy is all because we ARE receptive to the feedback provided in appeals and it's why I continue to request more of it.
But I do draw the line at users being able to warn moderators as you suggested.. that sounds ridiculous, especially since it'd just result in a complete lack of any moderation occurring. You have a clear appeals process for those like yourself who are admittedly biased and feel like actions taken aren't too be assumed as valid, we have no qualms providing a reason for our judgement and discussing things.
What a joke. You are using a member's good nature to excuse yourself. Either way, you are defining moderation rules now and admitting past transgressions. And you didn't lose the ability to repeat them. So why can't we see them?
And how tone deaf can you be? If a dividing line and "/troll" doesn't alert you that it isn't a serious comment, I can't see what will.
I remember that thread Aeglos. Just because I didn't act like upset in that thread, doesn't mean I was upset. I was pretty sure I PM'd squishpoke and Ironhorse about it back then to ask them about it. Squishpoke said he requested it. I was going to post a screenshot of that PM, but now I can't find it. I don't know anymore.
I meant what I said in that thread, I just expressed concern privately. There are a lot of things I do over PM's instead of in the forums. I don't think I can convince you any way or the other, but I felt the need to clarify.
I don't want to make a big thing of this, but I feel like I should chime in and say that I am still unhappy with recent moderation I have received and also unhappy with the resolution to this recent moderation by using "proper channels" to discuss it (i.e. over PM).
I assume that's okay to say in this thread despite the rule? (after all, moderation is the topic of the thread).
I know y'all are saying you're receptive to feedback, but I didn't really get that feeling. If you want to be strict about enforcing the "do not discuss moderation publicly" rule, then you have to accommodate this a little better. If people don't trust that their private feedback is actually being heard then what's the point...
Either way, you are defining moderation rules now and admitting past transgressions. And you didn't lose the ability to repeat them. So why can't we see them?
1) So demonstrating that we listen to feedback and actually act on it isn't viewed as progress by you, but instead admission of guilt that somehow suggests we can't remain on a corrected course??
2) You can see them. They are on the top of the first page of this thread. There are no special hidden rules posted anywhere for the moderation team
We run into situations where we see fit to pivot and adjust, and we do so. We're not writing these down on some master list, as there's small things that pop up daily, but we all wish to be on the same page. For example we learned through an unfortunate event that we need to message users with their warning before kicking them in the discord server (no matter how fast you need to act) because we cant contact them unless they are a friend or belong to a shared discord server. How could we make this mistake? Well, we haven't had to kick people out.
Another example: In order to remove potential for bias, we recently agreed that another moderator should be the one to take action if the user in question gets personal.
So what you're asking for are our SOPs, our Standard Operating Procedures.
There's no comprehensive list that exists for you to look over with, but even if there was I wouldn't be inclined to publicly share every nuanced detail in how we operate. The only purpose it would serve is for a random user to scrutinize a moderator's every action unnecessarily, and only out of spite/through direct targeting so that they could find a small procedural flaw that they mistakenly will think somehow invalidates the moderator's judgement. It's a waste of everyone's time.
When it comes to how we treat and interact with community members when taking moderation action, you need only one set of rules to reference... the ones posted in the first few sentences of this thread.
If you disagree with the judgement, or the way it was served, you know what to do.
@d0ped0g
How can we better accommodate other than us bringing it to UWE? What would you like to see?
Would discussing the moderation in private help if you were able to speak with multiple moderators? Should this option be extended to every user when they appeal? Give us some suggestions
How can we better accommodate other than us bringing it to UWE? What would you like to see?
Would discussing the moderation in private help if you were able to speak with multiple moderators? Should this option be extended to every user when they appeal? Give us some suggestions
And what if we disagree with the rules themselves?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2016
@migalski Unless you can provide a truly convincing reason (for UWE) of why the rules should be adjusted and how, then you're just stuck playing by those rules or not at all.
Pretty much the same as any privately ran internet forum..
Either way, you are defining moderation rules now and admitting past transgressions. And you didn't lose the ability to repeat them. So why can't we see them?
1) So demonstrating that we listen to feedback and actually act on it isn't viewed as progress by you, but instead admission of guilt that somehow suggests we can't remain on a corrected course??
2) You can see them. They are on the top of the first page of this thread. There are no special hidden rules posted anywhere for the moderation team
We run into situations where we see fit to pivot and adjust, and we do so. We're not writing these down on some master list, as there's small things that pop up daily, but we all wish to be on the same page. For example we learned through an unfortunate event that we need to message users with their warning before kicking them in the discord server (no matter how fast you need to act) because we cant contact them unless they are a friend or belong to a shared discord server. How could we make this mistake? Well, we haven't had to kick people out.
Another example: In order to remove potential for bias, we recently agreed that another moderator should be the one to take action if the user in question gets personal.
So what you're asking for are our SOPs, our Standard Operating Procedures.
There's no comprehensive list that exists for you to look over with, but even if there was I wouldn't be inclined to publicly share every nuanced detail in how we operate. The only purpose it would serve is for a random user to scrutinize a moderator's every action unnecessarily, and only out of spite/through direct targeting so that they could find a small procedural flaw that they mistakenly will think somehow invalidates the moderator's judgement. It's a waste of everyone's time.
When it comes to how we treat and interact with community members when taking moderation action, you need only one set of rules to reference... the ones posted in the first few sentences of this thread.
If you disagree with the judgement, or the way it was served, you know what to do.
@d0ped0g
How can we better accommodate other than us bringing it to UWE? What would you like to see?
Would discussing the moderation in private help if you were able to speak with multiple moderators? Should this option be extended to every user when they appeal? Give us some suggestions
It is progress. We got some clearly defined rules out of it. No ninja sinks. Finally. No silent locks. Bonus. No snarky edits. Good. None of these are in the rules in the first page, because you know, most members lack the access rights to do so.
Admission of guilt does not mean you can't remain on a corrected course. I'm not going for something so definite. But it means there is precedent for it happening, and could happen again. Rules won't prevent them either, but it gives us more legitimacy to escalate the matter. Instead of guessing (as I mentioned in the first page) whether such things were allowed or not essentially through trial and error, wondering it it comes down to personal preference. And as it is through private channels, other people wouldn't know.
Also, personally, I wouldn't speak for the conduct of others present and future. Seems like a recipe for disappointment.
___
p.s. Did you like my flagging of the post above? Double standard right there! Special rules for moderators. /troll
@d0ped0g
How can we better accommodate other than us bringing it to UWE? What would you like to see?
Would discussing the moderation in private help if you were able to speak with multiple moderators? Should this option be extended to every user when they appeal? Give us some suggestions
Nah, multiple moderators aren't necessary. I probably worded that post a bit strongly and the specific instance really wasn't that bad - it's not a major complaint or anything. Just throwing my 2c into the ring while the thread is here.
Moderation has been mostly fine. Y'all are volunteers so I shouldn't be too critical. Lord knows I'm not the perfect forum user. And the community is probably a pain in the ass to deal with sometimes. I dunno how you guys do it
Anyway, I think my only suggestion would be to take a moment to chill out a little sometimes. Which goes both ways so I guess so I'll take my own advice.
I want to preface by saying that I found this funny, and the dude has a point - there are better things to worry about.
However - @IronHorse - if you want to know how to get people to trust that their complaints about moderation are being taken seriously, perhaps you shouldn't be awesoming posts like this?
Comments
Gotta build dat street cred...
Censoring is not all moderators do or can do. Action taken may not always be appropriate. You assume that moderators will do the right thing. I think otherwise.
Sometimes they do the sensible thing and go "-snip-", other times they mock the poster by replacing their text, essentially putting words in their mouths. Perhaps they may begin to forget to colour their edits.
Or if they (you) edit the profile of their members as a practical joke @SquishpokePOOPFACE .
Maybe they also play musical chairs with bans, with one banning and the other unbanning.
There are also "simple mistakes" as I mentioned upthread although that has now been clarified as to be not allowed. Has there been any accountability for that?
If he had not requested it, that would have been mod abuse without a doubt.
Also here you can find in this old thread that no moderator ever moderated the thread. Everyone was just naming and shaming.
Good job moderators, you act really neutral at all.
And here I thought he was always named that way.
Nice revisionist history.
@SquishpokePOOPFACE is going to have to confirm for me now.
If that's admin abuse to you then it makes sense why you think it's prevalent..
As for one moderator undoing a ban / undermining another moderator.. it doesn't happen anymore due to those aforementioned adjusting policies. Same goes for the snarky edits I am known for.
This shifting policy is all because we ARE receptive to the feedback provided in appeals and it's why I continue to request more of it.
But I do draw the line at users being able to warn moderators as you suggested.. that sounds ridiculous, especially since it'd just result in a complete lack of any moderation occurring. You have a clear appeals process for those like yourself who are admittedly biased and feel like actions taken aren't too be assumed as valid, we have no qualms providing a reason for our judgement and discussing things.
@wooza
Are you unable to separate my personal opinions from my moderation role?? Am I unable to provide an opinion in these forums because of my role? I don't think so.
Moderation actions will always be in orange color.
Also are you unaware of how naming and shaming works?? If you open a thread talking about yourself or your server, you willingly invite all the criticism you can handle, and we'll let you.
Conversely, if someone opens a thread to shame your name that is when we try to step in.
Have both points been clarified for you now?
I see the point of starting afresh.. so regardless if moderation was poor or not in the past, to do it better now.
I also however have been keeping a silent but watchful eye as always on forum posts and discord chat. DC no like. While some people can go to far, most are just passionate about their talk. I havent seen many actions yet which would remotely call for any of the taken actions being taken.
Of course there is a chance that such actions are already modded out, but really.. ive seen a decline in modding quality for the last few months and I am in fact concerned.
Now I cant say how to run these forums or discord, its not my place. Just consider these 2 things, humour me here.
If you even have to warn/edit old moderators/forum admins about them breaking policy, or being told by folk like me (who usually dont see anything wrong with rule enforcement), that its snowballing out of proportion... did you miss something?
I am less obvious when I do this role
However... that being said, officially, for all those still tracking this thread and those concerned : We are going to tone down our moderation efforts going forward.
This is both in response to feedback from many members both internally and within the community, as well as the fact that the forums have calmed down from the shitstorm that they were weeks ago.
Keep in mind if things get bad again with repeated threads, drama, and out of control name calling - that we will pivot once again in response.
Thank you to those who came to us or me with your concerns and feedback, and thank you for the understanding you've extended thus far.
What a joke. You are using a member's good nature to excuse yourself. Either way, you are defining moderation rules now and admitting past transgressions. And you didn't lose the ability to repeat them. So why can't we see them?
And how tone deaf can you be? If a dividing line and "/troll" doesn't alert you that it isn't a serious comment, I can't see what will.
How to shirk responsibility 101. Much accountabilities to be had.
Yes, and Donald Trump doesn't mean any of those things he said either.
I assume that's okay to say in this thread despite the rule? (after all, moderation is the topic of the thread).
I know y'all are saying you're receptive to feedback, but I didn't really get that feeling. If you want to be strict about enforcing the "do not discuss moderation publicly" rule, then you have to accommodate this a little better. If people don't trust that their private feedback is actually being heard then what's the point...
2) You can see them. They are on the top of the first page of this thread. There are no special hidden rules posted anywhere for the moderation team
We run into situations where we see fit to pivot and adjust, and we do so. We're not writing these down on some master list, as there's small things that pop up daily, but we all wish to be on the same page. For example we learned through an unfortunate event that we need to message users with their warning before kicking them in the discord server (no matter how fast you need to act) because we cant contact them unless they are a friend or belong to a shared discord server. How could we make this mistake? Well, we haven't had to kick people out.
Another example: In order to remove potential for bias, we recently agreed that another moderator should be the one to take action if the user in question gets personal.
So what you're asking for are our SOPs, our Standard Operating Procedures.
There's no comprehensive list that exists for you to look over with, but even if there was I wouldn't be inclined to publicly share every nuanced detail in how we operate. The only purpose it would serve is for a random user to scrutinize a moderator's every action unnecessarily, and only out of spite/through direct targeting so that they could find a small procedural flaw that they mistakenly will think somehow invalidates the moderator's judgement. It's a waste of everyone's time.
When it comes to how we treat and interact with community members when taking moderation action, you need only one set of rules to reference... the ones posted in the first few sentences of this thread.
If you disagree with the judgement, or the way it was served, you know what to do.
@d0ped0g
How can we better accommodate other than us bringing it to UWE? What would you like to see?
Would discussing the moderation in private help if you were able to speak with multiple moderators? Should this option be extended to every user when they appeal? Give us some suggestions
And what if we disagree with the rules themselves?
Pretty much the same as any privately ran internet forum..
It is progress. We got some clearly defined rules out of it. No ninja sinks. Finally. No silent locks. Bonus. No snarky edits. Good. None of these are in the rules in the first page, because you know, most members lack the access rights to do so.
Admission of guilt does not mean you can't remain on a corrected course. I'm not going for something so definite. But it means there is precedent for it happening, and could happen again. Rules won't prevent them either, but it gives us more legitimacy to escalate the matter. Instead of guessing (as I mentioned in the first page) whether such things were allowed or not essentially through trial and error, wondering it it comes down to personal preference. And as it is through private channels, other people wouldn't know.
Also, personally, I wouldn't speak for the conduct of others present and future. Seems like a recipe for disappointment.
___
p.s. Did you like my flagging of the post above? Double standard right there! Special rules for moderators. /troll
Boo hoo my post on a small game forum got modded
Boo hoo I have no life
Boo hoo
Nah, multiple moderators aren't necessary. I probably worded that post a bit strongly and the specific instance really wasn't that bad - it's not a major complaint or anything. Just throwing my 2c into the ring while the thread is here.
Moderation has been mostly fine. Y'all are volunteers so I shouldn't be too critical. Lord knows I'm not the perfect forum user. And the community is probably a pain in the ass to deal with sometimes. I dunno how you guys do it
Anyway, I think my only suggestion would be to take a moment to chill out a little sometimes. Which goes both ways so I guess so I'll take my own advice.
Hi again, by the way.
It's been... uh.. a few months.
Oh dear, Squishpoke Still smells of poop.
When it makes it to page 2 it will be... (you just bumped it back up tho :P)
Also.. get on our discord, mang.
I want to preface by saying that I found this funny, and the dude has a point - there are better things to worry about.
However - @IronHorse - if you want to know how to get people to trust that their complaints about moderation are being taken seriously, perhaps you shouldn't be awesoming posts like this?
Like, I know I said I was done, but c'mon man...