The mindset for ns2 is causing bad player retention

jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members
This is just a rant based on my confused observations in the excellent games called natural selection 1 and 2. Of course can the they be applied to other games or activities. If you get offended please behave nice anyway...;) I am not talking about MY skill or YOUR skill but about peoples skills and how we as a species have them and how they are distributed among the individuals.
We talk a lot about skills in this game, and we all know they are really hard to define. What is the most important skill? . I'd say it is situational awareness. You need basic skills like aiming, communication skills like being able to listen, motoric skills like having the ability to reach button c as often as possible, understanding of the game mechanics, which is knowledge skill etc.

My point with this is that the many people lack important skills, like situational awareness and maybe some other skills, and do not have the ability to develop them by playing, because it is a skill not so common among everyone. Very demanding games, like i would like to see ns2 as, make these abilities so essential that you lose the game if you lack them . A random number of people try out ns2 and among them only a few percent fits the demanded mindset ( to win or having a enjoyable game). People talk a lot about whining on the servers and the forums, toxic word battles between lousy comms and back seat driving self-proclaimed expert players but this is just a expression of the frustrations people have when not being able to see that every person has different set of abilities, experience, knowledge and not everyone have the genes that carry these abilities. The very disturbing thought i have come up with is that this is the main reason the player retention is so high. It is not about guides and tutorials (of course they help and they are very important). The thing is only some people take the time to go through them and forcing things like this on people is not working because it is a bad way to make people learn. If i lack the skills to adapt and learn i go to the manual. But most people don't, because they lack the "skill" to do it. I know i'm a little incoherent but i hope you understand my intention: NS2 is not a mainstream game for everyone and it is NOT possible for it to be game for everyone. Hence ns2 will always have low player retention and only a few individuals have the specific mindset necessary to play it.

Sorry for any bad english, it is not my native language. I appreciate if you correct my language, but do it politely.
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Comments

  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    Also, NS2 players write annoyingly long posts on the forums.

    The fact that you can't aim and have an abysmal k/d ratio doesn't mean that you have the self-proclaimed "main NS2 skill" - situational awareness.

    Am I trolling right? :D
  • 3X4L73X4L7 Join Date: 2014-06-13 Member: 196510Members
    I was playing yesturday and had to blurt out..."WTF[udge] are they teaching rookies in training"

    Do the tutorials really waste their time without speaking about situational awareness?

    I'm curious because there's major game problems that should be adressed...

    such as the sight of aliens on a marines radar or the left over sight on the map.

    Truely, though, we can't expect players to have situational awarness when most want to jump in the game and play to have fun.

    Learning the hardway, they run into what is illogical and without explanation of game mechanics or ping mechanics. Many seem to be playing for the goal without understanding resources too.

    Like you said, no one wants to be forced to do anything....I'd hate to be forced into a tutorial... Golden Rule would suggest not doing it to others.
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members
    well i don't know who is trolling, but yeah! ;) but obviously you didn't read the annoyingly long post... About my own skill i struggle like everybody else and it ain't no more than average. This isn't about that it is just a observation, and if course it is coloured by subjective reality.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Before responding any further to this, I would like to make sure I understand what you mean, because frankly, I find your post a little confusing. As I get it, you have these two main points:
    a) Most people don't have the necessary mindset to play ns2
    b) These people tend to get scared off by the existing players

    Correct?
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members
    edited April 2016
    i tend to find my own post confusing to ;)
    a) is definitely what i mean. I also say that they can't develop these skills.
    b) is maybe what i say but it is just a description and not important
    my point is that the high player retention will be the same whatever you do. i know this is the focus of the PDT.

    edit:sorry: i was using the word retention wrong. we have a high flow of new players all the time but many quit playing after a few times. we can't keep the players. i'm saying this is the reason, not bad turorials
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    jrgn wrote: »
    i tend to find my own post confusing to ;)
    a) is definitely what i mean. I also say that they can't develop these skills.
    b) is maybe what i say but it is just a description and not important
    my point is that the high player retention will be the same whatever you do. i know this is the focus of the PDT.

    edit:sorry: i was using the word retention wrong. we have a high flow of new players all the time but many quit playing after a few times. we can't keep the players. i'm saying this is the reason, not bad turorials

    Ah, in that case, I have nothing to add. I agree, ns2 requires a certain mindset to play.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I would agree that ns2 most people don't have the necessary mindset to play ns2. That this causes the majority of poor player retention. It does not cause all of the poor player retention. Many of the things the developers are doing right now are improving retention. It is just little things. There is not and never will be a magic bullet. Fixing enough of the little things, together can improve retention a lot. I think that is what the developers are trying to do right now.
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon Germany Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Members
    edited April 2016
    funny to hear it from this guy: Please stay on topic and don't name & shame
    i mean it's almost a year since that but still.
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    edited April 2016
    Absurdon wrote: »
    funny to hear it from this guy:
    i mean it's almost a year since that but still.

    As I said, he thought that he had a better situational awareness than that commander.

    (edit: and since the aim was crap and he was at the bottom of the scoreboard, that didn't help in credibility)
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon Germany Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Members
    edited April 2016
    Please stay on topic and don't name & shame
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    Wow, that's really confusing and absurd (pun intended).
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon Germany Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Members
    i ment the gather where he got that ban on ensl
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    edited April 2016
    Absurdon wrote: »
    funny to hear it from this guy:
    i mean it's almost a year since that but still.

    Not saying that it is the case but more than once I saw butthurt people when they go mad mid-gathers because of being dominated by the other team starting to insult that guy with low k/d until he leaves then report to admin to get him banned.
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon Germany Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Members
    don't wanna discuss what happens in gathers here. just found it funny to see that this guy who got banned from gathers (1 day ban cause fst time) complains bout ppl doing the shit he did to get this ban. as i was in the gather which was finaly leading to his ban and have played more gathers with him b4 that (same behaviour) i know that he did what he was banned 4.
    Absurdon wrote: »
    i was in that gather and i remember well. he was just purly ignoring everything his teammates said in that round. he muted himself in teamspeak for the entire round. and then he called us all retards and left while the round wasn't finished and there was 1 more round to be played.

    so wtf is this guy even furious about? he's definitly one of the guys he's ranting about. that's just pure ironic and funny to me.
    and just the fact that he expects everyone in pubs to play halfway serious and organized made me rofl.
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members
    edited April 2016
    hahah old sins....my teamspeak wasn't simply working like it should that game. @Absurdon you are saying a lot about my behaviour that has nothing to do with this topic, and the fact that you say get so furious about it get me laughing. Considering your joining date on these for and the fact you stalk my old ban on NSL makes you pretty much pathetic. Stepping into this discussion just to discredit me...lol
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members
    Nordic wrote: »
    I would agree that ns2 most people don't have the necessary mindset to play ns2. That this causes the majority of poor player retention. It does not cause all of the poor player retention. Many of the things the developers are doing right now are improving retention. It is just little things. There is not and never will be a magic bullet. Fixing enough of the little things, together can improve retention a lot. I think that is what the developers are trying to do right now.

    Back on topic: I most certainly agree that a improvements should be made in this area. Of course it helps. But i believe the effect will not be as big as expected.
  • FoxyFoxy United Kingdom Join Date: 2014-08-19 Member: 198032Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Absurdon wrote: »
    don't wanna discuss what happens in gathers here. just found it funny to see that this guy who got banned from gathers (1 day ban cause fst time) complains bout ppl doing the shit he did to get this ban. as i was in the gather which was finaly leading to his ban and have played more gathers with him b4 that (same behaviour) i know that he did what he was banned 4.

    You've literally come into this thread to comment specifically about a year old gather ban, that suggests you do want to discuss gathers here. Regardless, please stay on topic and don't name and shame people, particularly in threads that are trying to constructively discuss player retention. Thanks.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2016
    jrgn wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    I would agree that ns2 most people don't have the necessary mindset to play ns2. That this causes the majority of poor player retention. It does not cause all of the poor player retention. Many of the things the developers are doing right now are improving retention. It is just little things. There is not and never will be a magic bullet. Fixing enough of the little things, together can improve retention a lot. I think that is what the developers are trying to do right now.

    Back on topic: I most certainly agree that a improvements should be made in this area. Of course it helps. But i believe the effect will not be as big as expected.

    That is the point though. How big is "expected" and who is expecting that much? I don't think anyone is realistically thinking ns2 is going to triple in player counts in the next few months because of the recent changes.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    The problem that people dont want/can improve or want to read manuals is a general problem these days.
    In times where games have left the "nerd-status" and everyone is playing games end in different types of gamers.

    And cause the low playerbase in NS2 all these types of players facing each other on the same server:

    "Pros", with good PCs and fps above 160 who training there aim, watching clanwars to analyse rounds to improve personal skill
    vs.
    "Casuals", playing on average PCs with around 80fps, ok aim, but struggle to get a deeper understanding of the game or they are not interested in improving
    vs.
    "Total gaming beginner" ,playing on 5 years old cheap office laptops, they think more than 30fps are useless, they cant aim and they have zero clue how shooters in general works.

    You can put these 3 into another game with the same result.
    Its game independent.
    The "Pro" would always try to improve, the "Casual" would always try to have fun and "the total beginner" would always try to aim/understand whats going on.

    Its about mindset.
    There games out there for every of these 3 (there more for sure) mindsets.
    So, the final question is:
    Is there a need that a game has to attract all kind of mindsets in times of so many different games and genres?

    I dont think so.
    Just open the steam shop and search a game that fits to your needs. Things can be so simple these days.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    These 3 are only the basic mindsets/skill groups or whatever.
    Sure you have variations within each, but this would end in an wall of text.

    And with your comment you show me that im not totally wrong @Nordic.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    I don't have the mindset to leave ...
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2016
    I don't want to get any better because I would enjoy ns2 less. I already can not play in most pub games because I get annoyed with the low skill. I also don't want to play in gathers or comp ns2.

    My point is not that you are wrong, but that your post was too basic and is missing the nuances.
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members
    Nordic wrote: »
    I don't want to get any better because I would enjoy ns2 less. I already can not play in most pub games because I get annoyed with the low skill. I also don't want to play in gathers or comp ns2.

    Hahaha lovely answer! The sad thing is that i know what you mean! Difference is I get shittier day by day, i think i'll turn a permagorge in some vent for the rest! :)
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
  • NovoReiNovoRei US Join Date: 2014-11-18 Member: 199718Members
    edited April 2016
    jrgn wrote: »
    ...

    Summarizing:

    NS2 has very few holes for players to fill in and even these few require a high skill level / effort for it to be fun.

    Well, the core is not going to change. Devs are providing new game modes so you have more holes diversity and tutorials to make skill learning easier.

    The current holes are basically fielding or commanding.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    I have a casual mindset but do enjoy improving my skills. I don't like it when people wrongly generalize like this.
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members
    Hello, real NS2 player here, I can confirm that real NS2 players just play NS2 so they can feel superior to every other type of gamer due to the actually-incredibly-broad range of skills required to be any good at it.
    TSF recruitment criterion states you must be at least a 4/10 on the Autistic Spectrum Scale that I just made up in my head

    Probably more correct than the intended sarcasm. Oh the irony. Übermensch is the way to go. But i do think ns2 players are superior to average CS-player. On a more serious note i was never trying to say which skill is most important for everyone, only which is for me...i believe there is something called High Functioning Autism also.
  • Sgt_SassSgt_Sass Join Date: 2016-02-13 Member: 213004Members
    Lets try not to fall prey to "the only reason we aren't popular is because we're so much better than everyone else" hubris. I don't think the game or its community will benefit from a false sense of superiority or elitism.
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