moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
IMHO the main purpose of hive skill is to help make balanced teams so the policy should be designed to further this goal (and only this goal.)
If I were to write the policy, the criteria would be two questions.
1. Does the skill a player displays on this server translate directly to skill in a vanilla server?
2. Are the rounds of gameplay on this server similar in duration and complexity to games on a vanilla server?
If the answer to both questions is yes, I'd include it. This includes compmod, large servers, or really any modifications that primarily change the meta. So long as the basic gameplay is intact and rounds play out in a similar way, it should contribute to hive. The only things I'd exclude are things like faded and last stand.
Here's a thought experiment that might change people's mind. Suppose someone has demonstrated incredible skill such that rounds have to be balanced around them, but has only played on heavily modified servers. Should that player be allowed to stomp with impunity if they join a vanilla server?
A high skill value should be properly thought of as a handicap rather than a benefit because it reduces the quality of your teammates.
The ns2large servers are so extremely bad (both performance and balance wise)
www.apheriox.com/wonitor for "balance issues" (I am refering to my servers not NS2Large servers in general).
And regarding server performance: Check the Performance Rating or actually join the server and check for yourself.
I am not starting now a discussion why my server are whitelisted and Hellarious Basterds is not.
It's probably not even about server performance but client side. Anyway your server beeing whitelisted makes no sense at all, if we wan't Hive to work even barely that is, same goes for compmod. The only solution would be to fragment Hive for every major mod, so those that wan't can play in their little bubble without polluting vanilla servers.
jop... the solution is to get all servers exept the UWE officials off the list... see where that leads ^^... deal with ALL the players complaints and act... like seriously... turn off all the mods.. NS2+, shine, Tweaks, compMod ... like everywhere.. and see who of the 400 ppl is still interested in just playing vanilla NS2 sleep it over @_INTER_ .... @moultano nailed it (sarcasm -.- really?! do i have to poit it out?)
Not at all, skill from large server do not translate directly to vanilla. I mean GL dominate that place like crazy and not funny anymore, then there is positioning etc.
@moultano, Exept CompMod is used on gathers and if you play mostly gathers your average skill point won't correspond at all to your level. All these players have 2.5k, if they played only on vanilla they would have 3.5k.
look... did you even read anything above you own post? ^^ @_INTER_ ... do you know how important large player count servers are for NS2? .. do you wanna find populated servers 2 years from now... then you better start overthinking your perspective on things buddy... QUICKLY! there is a vast variety of servers and styles to play the game... if Hive does not apply to ALL the servers it will render the system even more useless than it allready is .. I'm starting to loose interest and will focus on my own solution soon... It's like talkin to a brick wall again... ain't noone got time for that!
@IronHorse The performance discussion is out of track but even with 23 tickrate wooza performs better than some servers with 20-24 slots (hitreg and lag spikes). It does give you poorer FPS in late game but it's nowhere as annoying as reg/lag issue early game on some servers.
and @Tinki ... start seeing things from more perspectives as your own or limit your output to this very specific scenario (beeing competitive play, 10% maybe 15% of active players)
Well, yea .. the server is being stressed out less, so that makes sense. It's not hitting the ceiling as some servers might be. (like those servers that shouldn't be running 24 player)
But lower tick / send / update rates don't make the game feel better, (default rates are already bad enough) and then there's the FPS issue you mention.
I think he's done a fine job with his internet connection and bwlimit settings tho. Not to mention his awesome monitor website.
@HEllrunner2k, It can seems weird to you but i always played more public than competitive. As for more perspective i was specifically refering to compmod. I mean herakles was at 2800 at some point....
isn't the largest community in NS2 enough? Why should wooza prove ANYTHING, man ^^ shouldn't you on the contrary take advise in making large servers work and maintaining a huge community of loyal paying customers? (kiss his feet and divert resouces in expanding the games capabilitys to actually handle it by default?)
I know @Tinki ... don't take offense pls, I talk like that... hard facts and truth in ya face there are players that cracked 5000 ELO due to exploits tho -.- .. but it's all good like @moultano said... they shoot themselfs in the foot. and isn't that wanted?
Compmod should not now nor ever be whitelisted
</my2pence>
Would be a good idea (sarcasm). Any veteran or new player playing competitive would just see their ELO fickle. I think I don't need to explain how bad would it be for public games with even more unbalanced teams since the competitive players would be poorly distributed. And let's set aside 40% of the active community by telling them all their competitive games will not be taken into account.
The much-quoted tweet from Lukas says that any server with strong gameplay changing mods will not be whitelisted however compmod, as of its latest iteration includes, but is not limited to the following changes to vanilla:
Bunny-hopping Gorges
Heavy Machine Guns
The ability for Marines to 'Walk' (as opposed to crouch-sneaking)
Cheaper Prototype Lab, More expensive Arms Lab
ARCs can 'charge' across infestation for no speed penalty
No single arm Exos (research shortcut)
Several Biomass/Upgrade changes
Several Biomass/Health changes
And until very recently you could even swap out your pistol for a flamethrower (you get bigger pockets in compmod).
The ELO gains/losses in compmod are irrelevant and frankly skewed. a 3000 skill player losing 1000 points from a day of bad gathers is still a 3000 skill player. It would far better to have a system that gives you a static hive score simply for being in a div 1 team or a Hive system linked to compmod servers only like NS2Stats etc. Hive should be reserved for Vanilla/NS2+ servers. That is the best hope for it to ever be an accurate, effective means of balancing a game.
balancing for whom @Foxy? the game balance itself is dependent on the player counts... and if someone couter acts that to make it balanced (like getting the gore down to 95 to balance for 7v7) they get excluded, further dividing the community? ... no! it has to work in all circumstances or it's not working at all.. this includes compMod ... it's basically just a balanced 6v6... the outcome should not follow other rules than the pubs ofc.. but basically it's the same thing.. processwise
sure .. I CRAVE a consistent, scaled balance (floating balance concept, ask me) but till then we need ppl that work it out and norm it... I'm currently just fighting the worst offenders.. beeing Onos and Exos in 7v7... I bet Wooza has a whole different take on it. ... ask the tactical games dude what's best for 8v8 ... and SupaFred for advise in 12v12 ... ask ppl that KNOW thier shit... forcing one static balance on everyone that will be invalid once you differ from the intended player count CAN'T be the way...
balancing for whom @Foxy? the game balance itself is dependent on the player counts... and if someoen couter acts that to make it balanced (like getting the gore down to 95 to balance for 7v7) they get excluded further dividing the community? ... no! it has to work in all circumstances or it's not working at all.. this includes compMod ... it's basically just a balanced 6v6... the outcome should not follow other rules that the pubs ofc.. but basically it's the same thing.. processwise
Balancing for players of vanilla NS2. Not a version of compmod and not a version that you think is better.
again @Foxy VANILLA NS2 balance does not work on 7v7 ... nor 6v6 (that's why there is a compMod without the comp scene would not exist in the first place, cuz the balance is BROKEN) ... nor 22v22 ... don't you understand?! ... switch off all mods and play vanilla .. be my guest .. oh wait.. there is NO server that runs vanilla NS2... hmmm I wonder why that is ^^ (correction ... UWE Rookie Servers do *FACEPALM* )
It also has nothing to do with a mood of mine or what I think is a cool idea... I lowered the gore and minigun damage cuz of repeated events that occured on my server... was talked over with regulars, comp- and pro players and concluded in two tiny changes that came basically directly from the compMod for 6v6 ... HB is 7v7 ... see any resemblence?! It's just the Onos gore and the minigun damage cuz comp players can exploit the Vanilla balance you value so much... I bet you will not find it funny anymore when your entire team tries to kill one pro onos... or 3 hives Oni and Fades get raped by one single exo ... I repeat.. this is NECCESSARY to ensure balanced and fun games in 7v7 ...
I just don't agree with you on the performance. I have about as good client performance as I can expect. I have a i5 3570k @ 4.6ghz with a 970. The last few times I have joined your server, once in recent months, it has been incredibly laggy.
That must have been when b279 came out which was really a neckbreaker for my servers. How can I manage to keep 2 servers full every day when they perform crap. High slot numbers does not mean it's easier to make a server popular. Infact it is very painful to manage such servers and rarely no one knows how much time I spent into to make the server enjoyable for most peoplle. The server runs degraded network specs now to avoid the many interpolation fails and warnings that exist since b279 till now. I have not heard any news from the devs yet. About 90% playing now without any issues, the rest has usually connection issues to my provider or playing on a potato
There used to be this 18 slot server called Hyperion which ran like crap. It was also always full. Then there were the 16 slot UWE official servers. They ran like crap too. There were also usually a few full constantly. Keeping full servers is unfortunately no indication of good performance. And this is just server side. For clients, there is a noticeable difference in fps going from 6v6 to 9v9. Its only going to get worse with higher player counts.
again @Foxy VANILLA NS2 balance does not work on 7v7 ... nor 6v6 (that's why there is a compMod without the comp scene would not exist in the first place, cuz the balance is BROKEN) ... nor 22v22 ... don't you understand?! ... switch off all mods and play vanilla .. be my guest .. oh wait.. there is NO server that runs vanilla NS2... hmmm I wonder why that is ^^ (correction ... UWE Rookie Servers do *FACEPALM* )
It also has nothing to do with a mood of mine or what I think is a cool idea... I lowered the gore and minigun damage cuz of repeated events that occured on my server... was talked over with regulars, comp- and pro players and concluded in two tiny changes that came basically directly from the compMod for 6v6 ... HB is 7v7 ... see any resemblence?! It's just the Onos gore and the minigun damage cuz comp players can exploit the Vanilla balance you value so much... I bet you will not find it funny anymore when your entire team tries to kill one pro onos... or 3 hives Oni and Fades get raped by one single exo ... I repeat.. this is NECCESSARY to ensure balanced and fun games in 7v7 ...
You're talking nonsense. You say no servers run Vanilla, but the majority of servers run NS2+ and Shine as the only mods. Neither of these change game balance. So they are in fact using the vanilla values. The game is not balanced for 42, that is certain. But the game is fine at 6v6, 7v7 and 8v8. Just because an Onos has '3 hives' (I assume you're talking about the health bonus from Biomass) doesn't make it a Tank and actually, an Onos vs a Dual Exo should lose every engagement, because the Exo can hit with sustained fire at range. This emphasises the need for Exos to have weld support and Aliens to work as a team to take an Exo down.
@Foxy I don't care what you agree with... this is tested and proven neccessary... sure it'll make your job as Wiki currator infinetly harder... but you have to decide where your aligence lie... to an easily maintainable wiki script.. or a fun to play NS2?
IF the game is fine at 6v6 ... 7v7 and even 8v8 ... why is there a compMod?
and cutomizing your UI.. from smaler nameplates, team based mouse accuracys over giant hidden hollograms and hidden view models to silenced ambient sounds DON't change the outcome of a game compared to vanilla? ... good one ^^
@Foxy I don't care what you agree with... this is tested and proven neccessary... sure it'll make your job as Wiki currator infinetly harder... but you have to decide where your aligence lie... to an easily maintainable wiki script.. or a fun to play NS2?
Tested by whom? Proven how? What has any of this got to do with the Wiki?
IF the game is fine at 6v6 ... 7v7 and even 8v8 ... why is there a compMod?
and cutomizing your UI.. from smaler nameplates, team based mouse accuracys over giant hidden hollograms and hidden view models to silenced ambient sounds DON't change the outcome of a game compared to vanilla? ... good one ^^
You're just clutching at straws, or at least I hope you are. If you aren't, then you genuinely believe that UI changes are the same as changing damage values, building costs, adding abilities to ARCs, allowing a flamethrower as a sidearm etc. Which would make you crazy.
CompMod exists to 'balance' the vanilla game in the eyes of competitive community and tweak the game for the fast paced twitch nature of gathers & comp play. To quote from one of the CompMod documents, to remove some 'frustrating' gameplay mechanics. Just because the comp community have tweaked some values, this does not mean the game is broken. If it was, comp players would never play on a pub server ever.
I'm not starting a balance discussion on the forums because of how these things go, but I will tell you without compmod or ns2+ removing 'frustrating' elements of the game, this game would all but be DEAD competitively. CompMod was born of necessity sadly, I have been and will continue to be against its existence. But so long as the current trend continues, I see no possible way this will change.
I hate to say it, but most people don't see the balance issues because they are not really thinking about those kinds of things, they are just playing to have fun. To them, balance is totally subjective. Nothing wrong with that, but it does make it much harder to give feedback or suggestions on balance directions. That said, they can offer GOOD advice on what is frustrating or un-fun about the game.
As for ranking, I think that 'hive score' should be hidden, and CompMod excluded.. but that's just because people care more about hive score than they should.
Comments
If I were to write the policy, the criteria would be two questions.
1. Does the skill a player displays on this server translate directly to skill in a vanilla server?
2. Are the rounds of gameplay on this server similar in duration and complexity to games on a vanilla server?
If the answer to both questions is yes, I'd include it. This includes compmod, large servers, or really any modifications that primarily change the meta. So long as the basic gameplay is intact and rounds play out in a similar way, it should contribute to hive. The only things I'd exclude are things like faded and last stand.
Here's a thought experiment that might change people's mind. Suppose someone has demonstrated incredible skill such that rounds have to be balanced around them, but has only played on heavily modified servers. Should that player be allowed to stomp with impunity if they join a vanilla server?
A high skill value should be properly thought of as a handicap rather than a benefit because it reduces the quality of your teammates.
It's probably not even about server performance but client side. Anyway your server beeing whitelisted makes no sense at all, if we wan't Hive to work even barely that is, same goes for compmod. The only solution would be to fragment Hive for every major mod, so those that wan't can play in their little bubble without polluting vanilla servers.
hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/195705080 (it's OneHit)
http://hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/55785405
http://hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/4530559
Your performance is poor because you have limited the tickrate to 23.
Because you've done that, it doesn't matter what the rating says.
Show your server can operate at the default rates without issue at those player counts and then claims of poor performance from others will dissipate.
Well, yea .. the server is being stressed out less, so that makes sense. It's not hitting the ceiling as some servers might be. (like those servers that shouldn't be running 24 player)
But lower tick / send / update rates don't make the game feel better, (default rates are already bad enough) and then there's the FPS issue you mention.
I think he's done a fine job with his internet connection and bwlimit settings tho. Not to mention his awesome monitor website.
The much-quoted tweet from Lukas says that any server with strong gameplay changing mods will not be whitelisted however compmod, as of its latest iteration includes, but is not limited to the following changes to vanilla:
And until very recently you could even swap out your pistol for a flamethrower (you get bigger pockets in compmod).
The ELO gains/losses in compmod are irrelevant and frankly skewed. a 3000 skill player losing 1000 points from a day of bad gathers is still a 3000 skill player. It would far better to have a system that gives you a static hive score simply for being in a div 1 team or a Hive system linked to compmod servers only like NS2Stats etc. Hive should be reserved for Vanilla/NS2+ servers. That is the best hope for it to ever be an accurate, effective means of balancing a game.
sure .. I CRAVE a consistent, scaled balance (floating balance concept, ask me) but till then we need ppl that work it out and norm it... I'm currently just fighting the worst offenders.. beeing Onos and Exos in 7v7... I bet Wooza has a whole different take on it. ... ask the tactical games dude what's best for 8v8 ... and SupaFred for advise in 12v12 ... ask ppl that KNOW thier shit... forcing one static balance on everyone that will be invalid once you differ from the intended player count CAN'T be the way...
Balancing for players of vanilla NS2. Not a version of compmod and not a version that you think is better.
It also has nothing to do with a mood of mine or what I think is a cool idea... I lowered the gore and minigun damage cuz of repeated events that occured on my server... was talked over with regulars, comp- and pro players and concluded in two tiny changes that came basically directly from the compMod for 6v6 ... HB is 7v7 ... see any resemblence?! It's just the Onos gore and the minigun damage cuz comp players can exploit the Vanilla balance you value so much... I bet you will not find it funny anymore when your entire team tries to kill one pro onos... or 3 hives Oni and Fades get raped by one single exo ... I repeat.. this is NECCESSARY to ensure balanced and fun games in 7v7 ...
There used to be this 18 slot server called Hyperion which ran like crap. It was also always full. Then there were the 16 slot UWE official servers. They ran like crap too. There were also usually a few full constantly. Keeping full servers is unfortunately no indication of good performance. And this is just server side. For clients, there is a noticeable difference in fps going from 6v6 to 9v9. Its only going to get worse with higher player counts.
I didn't. I was comparing the players on them.
You're talking nonsense. You say no servers run Vanilla, but the majority of servers run NS2+ and Shine as the only mods. Neither of these change game balance. So they are in fact using the vanilla values. The game is not balanced for 42, that is certain. But the game is fine at 6v6, 7v7 and 8v8. Just because an Onos has '3 hives' (I assume you're talking about the health bonus from Biomass) doesn't make it a Tank and actually, an Onos vs a Dual Exo should lose every engagement, because the Exo can hit with sustained fire at range. This emphasises the need for Exos to have weld support and Aliens to work as a team to take an Exo down.
and cutomizing your UI.. from smaler nameplates, team based mouse accuracys over giant hidden hollograms and hidden view models to silenced ambient sounds DON't change the outcome of a game compared to vanilla? ... good one ^^
Tested by whom? Proven how? What has any of this got to do with the Wiki?
You're just clutching at straws, or at least I hope you are. If you aren't, then you genuinely believe that UI changes are the same as changing damage values, building costs, adding abilities to ARCs, allowing a flamethrower as a sidearm etc. Which would make you crazy.
CompMod exists to 'balance' the vanilla game in the eyes of competitive community and tweak the game for the fast paced twitch nature of gathers & comp play. To quote from one of the CompMod documents, to remove some 'frustrating' gameplay mechanics. Just because the comp community have tweaked some values, this does not mean the game is broken. If it was, comp players would never play on a pub server ever.
I hate to say it, but most people don't see the balance issues because they are not really thinking about those kinds of things, they are just playing to have fun. To them, balance is totally subjective. Nothing wrong with that, but it does make it much harder to give feedback or suggestions on balance directions. That said, they can offer GOOD advice on what is frustrating or un-fun about the game.
As for ranking, I think that 'hive score' should be hidden, and CompMod excluded.. but that's just because people care more about hive score than they should.