"Food For Thought" - Ecosystem Concerns

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  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    lxh wrote: »
    Hmmm, this is possible. But I've observed another occurrence. I've had a cozy gasopod near my growing base what didn't seem to trouble it. Yeah, I gave it a name and even built an observatory module ... just for her! *g What shall I say, it was a real good time ... hehe. But one beautiful morning she was gone. Hihi

    Had you built something new that might have caused it to leave? Or did it just disappear without any new action by you?
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Well, to be honest I think this was caused by an exp. version update. Not easy to proof ... maybe by recycling our big base and rebuilding it in an untouched biome could give an answer.
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    edited January 2016
    lxh wrote: »
    Well, to be honest I think this was caused by an exp. version update. Not easy to proof ... maybe by recycling our big base and rebuilding it in an untouched biome could give an answer.

    lol... that's going to be a lot of work :p

    I do know one thing for certain, planting creepvines in farming trays generates huge numbers of hoopfish, both schools and catchable:
    eoFq9Ou.jpg

    EDIT: I think a much easier way to conduct the same experiment is to find a large creature spawn point (predator or gasopod) and then construct a base item near it to see if it disappears.

    EDIT2: I do find it interesting that the relased fish almost always go to the same place. My base is basically in the same spot as yours BTW :p
  • TheJewelOfJoolTheJewelOfJool Southwestern Ontario Join Date: 2016-01-11 Member: 211261Members
    I tried this once.



    Then I found the powers of the repulsion cannon.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    lol... that's going to be a lot of work :p
    ...
    EDIT: I think a much easier way to conduct the same experiment is to find a large creature spawn point (predator or gasopod) and then construct a base item near it to see if it disappears.

    EDIT2: I do find it interesting that the relased fish almost always go to the same place. My base is basically in the same spot as yours BTW :p

    Yeah, a lot of work. You say it. But wasn't such a project the very very first utilized cyclops operation? Btw it mustn't be all at once. The consequence might show up already during the move.

    Ah, the dumb fish gathering. Interesting, isn't it? Of all possible locations this must exactly happen within my repopulation radius. And I really thought I had made progress. That's what I call first class humor, Devs! Hehe
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    edited January 2016
    Well, I think I've figured out why the released fish always go to exactly that spot... it is the 0,0,0 point in the coordinate system. My guess is that either individual fish, or fish type spawns, are attached to specific coordinate locations throughout the world, which is why each fish or group of fish swim around an approximate location. The fish we release were never given a point like this, so they default to 0,0,0.

    EDIT: Can't believe I didn't think to check this before now

    EDIT2: I wonder if its possible / how hard it would be for the Devs to make it so that released fish acquire their point of release as their "home" coordinate instead of defaulting to 0,0,0. That way we could populate fish into an area and they would stay there.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Synthesized fish do not always go (as you say) to the same point. Tests showed up that this happens only when releasing far advanced inbreed generations.

    Btw I didn't check if my gathering point is at 0,0,0 but I'd suggest to let all the degenerated fish swim outside the map by random vectors.
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    I would love to believe that the Devs programmed inbred genetic errors into the fish, but I really don't think they've put that much effort into fish logic at this point. As for your statement about not all fish going to that point, I do agree that not *all* go there, but so far, out of at least 100 fish released over 3 saved games, only 2 have stayed near the release point for me.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Inherit properties of objects isn't any big effort within an object oriented programming language. Anyway .. you might empty your tanks and test it by yourself. Don't wait too long and take only the little ones. They'll stay. But that doesn't mean they survive. Then take the survivors and start again.
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    The point that I'm making is that the Devs seem to have made it clear that more complex fish logic isn't something they are working on currently. This is borne out by the fact that I've not seen any card in the Trello discussing changes to fish logic, save for one which is investigating the possibility of spawning a new fish after each one is killed to keep the population up. Basically, it might not take much effort, but they don't seem to have made it a priority at this point, so as far as I can tell, its not being done.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Well, this subject isn't about ecology any more. But creating a new game object by inherit other objects properties isn't any complex fish logic. Don't mix that up. And I'm pretty sure the Dev's don't discuss everything on trello, especially not about the top secret story. But please ... before writing litanies ... why don't you give it a try?
  • RainstormRainstorm Montreal (Quebec) Join Date: 2015-12-15 Member: 210003Members
    edited January 2016
    about fish spawn/respawn/breed subject,spaceinvaders refers to this card in the trello boards fish spawning . granted, this isnt about fish naturally breeding ''spawning'' but that could be a start. i think this only applies to when the player catches/kills a fish and not when a predator eats one tho
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    edited January 2016
    Rainstorm wrote: »
    about fish spawn/respawn/breed subject,spaceinvaders refers to this card in the trello boards fish spawning . granted, this isnt about fish naturally breeding ''spawning'' but that could be a start. i think this only applies to when the player catches/kills a fish and not when a predator eats one tho

    If I take this trello card by word, it's about spawning fish when killed. That doesn't mean when put it in your pocket. Such a step was an embarrassment and waste in consideration of the current motivational boost that depopulating circumstance gives us. I'd feel cheated and would probably stop playing that game when taking five fish, looking over my shoulder and see five new. Tz ..

    Edit: What was that good for? Why then breeding fish anyway? That was a step backwards to the point where two hours of gameplay bored me plus the feel of being mucked around. Yeah, put it in for the creative mode players.
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    I take it at face value as a first attempt to figure out how to maintain wild fish populations over the course of a long term game. Considering the egg system they are putting into place with farming, it may just be a precursor to proper wild breeding, or at least spawning an egg instead of new fish. It's like I keep saying, right now they are focused on other areas of core gameplay and the ecosystem is sitting on a back burner. If we go by their roadmap (which I would stress is only an outline where everything is subject to change), I would expect any real work that is going to be done on the ecosystem is going to happen during the "Creatures Attack!) update in April. Anything they introduce before then is most likely a stopgap measure to ensure that long-running saves don't end up devoid of life.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    edited January 2016
    right now they are focused on other areas of core gameplay
    On what? On optimizing the water park? Make it useful for the next monthly update? Anyway ... reading the readme of the roadmap shows up one line: Everything in here may change. Nothing here is set in stone

    However, I really hope our Devs know what they've unleashed. It's fantastic! Natural or better unnatural selection rephrased .. ;)
  • kislanykislany Cyprus Join Date: 2016-01-13 Member: 211341Members
    Not quite sure why you'd think that I'm just trolling and my post was not 'serious'. Just because it was my first post and is not in line with your experiences? At the time I didn't know that you can actually rebreed fish in a tank. I was not that far in the game. The furthest I got was the vines area and it's where I found all the gold, but I hardly found any fish, and definitely nothing that would replenish my water more than for a few minutes. I literally had to quit the game. I guess I won't post anymore, afterall, my post is not in line with what this forum is about, and I'm just trolling. Could have been just a glitch in the alpha game? Anyone thought of that, no, I'm just not 'serious' and I'm just keeping the thread from positive constructive posts.

    Btw this reply should have been for Ixh's post, not sure it put it below Spaceinvader's post. Tried a few times, always comes here. Probably another alpha glitch.
    @kislany: What lxh said is absolutely correct... There are actually plenty of edible fish in the starting and near starting zones to last for many hours (my first save was 24 hours and I could still find fish in both the shallows and the kelp forest my base bordered). The non-reproduction issue is more related to environment and a desire to have our gaming experience occur in a vibrant underwater ecosystem rather than a slowly dying one. The fact that you are running into Reapers and are not seeing any fish anymore means that you probably strayed into the crash zone biome (very much end game content right now) rather than sticking to the earlier zones, which isn't too hard if you go south from the shallows instead of west or north.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Hi kislany, good to see you back! I'm sorry if my lines came somewhat ignorant but you might agree that the summary of your long post was that you started a totally unknown game in a difficult gamemode and simply didn't make it. Again, I'm sorry sorry sorry for my harsh words, but I'm just off topic traumatized. :)
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    Well, I think I've figured out why the released fish always go to exactly that spot... it is the 0,0,0 point in the coordinate system. My guess is that either individual fish, or fish type spawns, are attached to specific coordinate locations throughout the world, which is why each fish or group of fish swim around an approximate location. The fish we release were never given a point like this, so they default to 0,0,0.

    EDIT: Can't believe I didn't think to check this before now

    EDIT2: I wonder if its possible / how hard it would be for the Devs to make it so that released fish acquire their point of release as their "home" coordinate instead of defaulting to 0,0,0. That way we could populate fish into an area and they would stay there.

    Oh this is fantastic new information @SpacedInvader !

    How does one see their current x,y,z position or location? I'm guessing it's a console command I can probably look up on the wiki and will do so. I thought of tracking the 'migration' patterns of the released fish to see where exactly they go. I did follow a few that kept heading towards the Aurora but lost them in the crowd so to speak in between getting air / surfacing. No way to tag fishes in this game with tracking devices haha.

    My base is in almost the same place as yours but on the other side of the hill from the vent. I had it between the vent and the kelp forest next door last time but wanted to see if my disturbing the kelp forest biome was causing issues with the Stalkers vacating. Oddly they've still vacated that area anyways even though none of my base is in that biome.

    I've tunneled through the hill from the vent and set up a power grid - those geothermal generators are amazing! I can keep my Seamoth charged up and still have non-stop recharging from the thermal vent for the water purifier and rest of base! I love the terraformer tool by the way, so much fun. Reluctant to disturb the reefs, I tunneled down from the thermal vent with a simple hole big enough only for running connection platforms and a tube back to my base for the power. I sealed it off on the lagoon side so my experimental released fish can't escape that route.

    But anyways, way off topic.

    If the fish swim to 0,0,0 because programming hasn't been done to assign them a 'home' location then that explains a lot of the behavior! I too do not think there's a lot more complicated going on with the system as much as I wish there were - we're just still so early in development with the game we're expecting a little much at this point!

    Would love to pick the developers brains on this one ... what do they have in mind for the future? I know they don't like to spoil things and give away new content ideas and anything to do with the story (which is a good thing!) so I am not expecting any replies to this long scientific saga we've created. Still fun to speculate and muse about. Keep up the good work @SpacedInvader and @lxh! I haven't posted because I haven't honestly been working on any of the observation stuff - just enjoying the beautiful biomes and finishing off my habitat/lagoon complex.
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    @Vexare to get in game coordinates, simply press F1 and look at the position about halfway down the page.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    edited January 2016
    Ok guys, I think I have some news for you.
    It seems that I'm the only one here who trusts our Devs to implement the Mendelian inheritance, which is generally known since 1866. For all those who assume this was too much effort and complicated .. I've even found the C++ source code online. So that was nearly a 'copy paste effort' for the Devs. But however ...

    I pushed myself to the test to clean up all my breeding tanks and to start again. It took a while to shift out the more resistant, adapted and long living fish from earlier breedings which I took to breed again. Avoiding inbreed is a bit tricky but all(!) my breed fish now settle where I release them. I have no single dumb fish swimming to the zero coordinates any more (which I'd change to random positions outside the map btw).

    Here you see some meanwhile 'old friends' who settled near my base. They do well and are fit as a fiddle, hehe.

    en6lkgxih5ld.jpg

    These three are the newest generation. Let's see how they'll do ...

    tiesawbu5uyl.jpg

    Atm I'm questioning about their needs to breed outdoors. But that's another challenge. :)

    "I'm afraid, this is a hereditary disease." - "Well, Doctor, then please send your bill to my parents."
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    How do you go about preventing inbreeding?
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    edited January 2016
    How do you go about preventing inbreeding?

    Well, 'think big' is totally contra productive in this case. I've started with only two adapted fish and waited for the first little one to come. This is to bring out and to release. Another strategy to deal is to wait until they are a maximum of six but then you better release all at once ... parents included. They will go 'home' anyway. Then - if you have - you can take much more healthy and established fish and wait until they double. But bring them all out afterwards.

    Edit: I think it's even possible to inbreed if you randomly catch siblings ... but this is going to be confirmed first.

    Edit2: It was very very handy if the Devs would make it possible to mark single fish ... don't know, a color code or such. Or a short scan to identify them and show up a custom note.
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    I will still need confirmation to believe that they have done this programming, but I will try to replicate your results at least.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Hehehe, I hope you don't get me wrong when I say: Just because we cannot imagine, mustn't mean it doesn't exist. ;)

    Btw: What's up with your experiment?
  • lorcogothlorcogoth belgium Join Date: 2015-09-14 Member: 207943Members
    in the current experimental build fish seem to be reproducing in the wild although only in certain locations (mostly places close to the bottom where there are at least a few fish of the same species (3 to 5 this amount might be lower but when there are only 2 fish the distance in between them seems to change to much and the reproducing doesn't work).

    also I am having a problem with large amounts of spade fish the roam the area around my base because of the "poisonous substances" they got added a short while ago nothing seems to be hunting them.

    also I don't think(read hope) that the Biters are reproducing, but no proof of this has been found yet.

    also if you use a water park does the vegetation inside the tank influence the growth of certain fish? (like having a lot of kelp would increase the speed of reproducing for Hoverfish since its similar to their normal habitat)
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    lorcogoth wrote: »
    in the current experimental build fish seem to be reproducing in the wild although only in certain locations (mostly places close to the bottom where there are at least a few fish of the same species (3 to 5 this amount might be lower but when there are only 2 fish the distance in between them seems to change to much and the reproducing doesn't work).

    also I am having a problem with large amounts of spade fish the roam the area around my base because of the "poisonous substances" they got added a short while ago nothing seems to be hunting them.

    also I don't think(read hope) that the Biters are reproducing, but no proof of this has been found yet.

    also if you use a water park does the vegetation inside the tank influence the growth of certain fish? (like having a lot of kelp would increase the speed of reproducing for Hoverfish since its similar to their normal habitat)

    Can you already confirm the outdoor 'reproduction' of your homegrown fish? That was excellent! Atm I'm trying to check out these certain conditions/locations.

    And yes, the influence of different flora inside the water park is still an unanswered question. There's so much to explore now ... ;)
  • lorcogothlorcogoth belgium Join Date: 2015-09-14 Member: 207943Members
    lxh wrote: »
    Can you already confirm the outdoor 'reproduction' of your homegrown fish? That was excellent! Atm I'm trying to check out these certain conditions/locations.

    And yes, the influence of different flora inside the water park is still an unanswered question. There's so much to explore now ... ;)

    actually most of the fish I find in a juvenile state in the wild are wild Reginald's reproducing around those spires in the red grass biome.
    also started a small test with hoverfish to check if flora influences reproducing rates

  • lorcogothlorcogoth belgium Join Date: 2015-09-14 Member: 207943Members
    alright results are in and it seems that currently the fauna inside the tanks doesn't influence reproducing rates or at least not for hoverfish.
    suggest for devs to implement this when they have time.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    lorcogoth wrote: »
    alright results are in and it seems that currently the fauna inside the tanks doesn't influence reproducing rates or at least not for hoverfish.
    suggest for devs to implement this when they have time.

    Hmmm, I'm questioning if it was possible to acclimate fish to different conditions. Like durable settling a new sort of peepers in the kelp forest for example.
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    lxh wrote: »
    How do you go about preventing inbreeding?

    Well, 'think big' is totally contra productive in this case. I've started with only two adapted fish and waited for the first little one to come. This is to bring out and to release. Another strategy to deal is to wait until they are a maximum of six but then you better release all at once ... parents included. They will go 'home' anyway. Then - if you have - you can take much more healthy and established fish and wait until they double. But bring them all out afterwards.

    Edit: I think it's even possible to inbreed if you randomly catch siblings ... but this is going to be confirmed first.

    Edit2: It was very very handy if the Devs would make it possible to mark single fish ... don't know, a color code or such. Or a short scan to identify them and show up a custom note.

    Interesting!

    Have you used F1 the way @SpacedInvader mentioned to get a location setting on the fish you've bred and released? That's my next step when I'm back in 'research mode' again ... a sort of tracking system via the locator on the fish programming. Unless I'm misunderstanding how it works as described by Spacedinvader, this loc. position is not the fish's current location but their spawn / home preference position ... where they swim to when released.

    So by breeding multiple generations of non-wild fish - it needs notated what that location is coded. If it does change, we need proof of that. If it stays 0,0,0 for generation 1 but changes on generation 2, 3 etc. then we need to know that too. Very good test case scenario!
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