"Food For Thought" - Ecosystem Concerns

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  • ElicioElicio Mexico Join Date: 2016-01-07 Member: 211054Members
    edited January 2016
    Those are some very detailed and thorough observations. Thanks so much for sharing them Vexare.

    I made an observation in normal mode (not experimental) that might prove useful.
    At one time I tried capturing fish from one patch of kelp forest and releasing them on other kelp forest near my base. They imediately started moving in the direction of the kelp forest where they had been caught (even though it was pretty far away and crossed several different biomes). Maybe the fish have a set "origin" they try to stay near to?
    If that is the case, I wonder what that "origin" could be for hatchery spawned fish, since it evidently can not be the hatchery itself or their release point, or you would have not seen them dissaper.
    If this hypothetical "origin" point reset to something different for hacthery spawns, lets say the world's 0,0,0 coordinates (wherever they might be), that might explain their vanishing through migration trying to reach it....and then be lost to the world or the different obstacles they come across trying to get there.

    And I agree with Rainstorm, it would be very interesting if we could hear some thoughts on the subject from the devs. I really hope they read through this topic at one point.
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    Elicio wrote: »
    Those are some very detailed and thorough observations. Thanks so much for sharing them Vexare.

    I made an observation in normal mode (not experimental) that might prove useful.
    At one time I tried capturing fish from one patch of kelp forest and releasing them on other kelp forest near my base. They imediately started moving in the direction of the kelp forest where they had been caught (even though it was pretty far away and crossed several different biomes). Maybe the fish have a set "origin" they try to stay near to?
    If that is the case, I wonder what that "origin" could be for hatchery spawned fish, since it evidently can not be the hatchery itself or their release point, or you would have not seen them dissaper.
    If this hypothetical "origin" point reset to something different for hacthery spawns, lets say the world's 0,0,0 coordinates (wherever they might be), that might explain their vanishing through migration trying to reach it....and then be lost to the world or the different obstacles they come across trying to get there.

    And I agree with Rainstorm, it would be very interesting if we could hear some thoughts on the subject from the devs. I really hope they read through this topic at one point.

    Yes, I hope they are reading it at least for the entertainment of watching some of us vainly try to become alien world Sea-Life Husbandry Specialists, haha. I have a feeling they are reading and observing (lurkers!) much as we observe our fish in their Aquariums...

    I too wonder what AI is involved with fish behavior when raised in a hatchery and released. I expected the Reginalds and other fish to make a bee-line for more 'native' habitats but when even the captivity raised local fish were released they mostly tried to swim as far away in one direction as possible. You have given me some more ideas though... I will take some of the hatchery fish to different locations and see what happens. So far I have only released them in the immediate vicinity of my habitat and the Kelp Forest biome next door. Perhaps they are 'fleeing' my habitat region. I do have a couple friendly hoverfish and boomerangs that stuck around - but everyone else high-tailed it far away never to be seen again. I thought maybe they'd be in the surrounding shallows but no joy. They are not living there as hoped.
  • ElicioElicio Mexico Join Date: 2016-01-07 Member: 211054Members
    edited January 2016
    Vexare wrote: »

    I too wonder what AI is involved with fish behavior when raised in a hatchery and released. I expected the Reginalds and other fish to make a bee-line for more 'native' habitats but when even the captivity raised local fish were released they mostly tried to swim as far away in one direction as possible. You have given me some more ideas though... I will take some of the hatchery fish to different locations and see what happens. So far I have only released them in the immediate vicinity of my habitat and the Kelp Forest biome next door. Perhaps they are 'fleeing' my habitat region. I do have a couple friendly hoverfish and boomerangs that stuck around - but everyone else high-tailed it far away never to be seen again. I thought maybe they'd be in the surrounding shallows but no joy. They are not living there as hoped.

    Ah....this sheds more light on it. Maybe my own fish going in a straight line to what I thought was their old kelp home was only a direction coincidense....if all your fish make a striaght line this likely means their "origin" does reset to something strange, as well as my own did after being picked up and moved far from their original location. This requires more testing, but if its the case, this will explain even an AI reset of their "home" to something odd under certain player-influenced circumstances.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    edited January 2016
    Did you ever try to take your 'friendly' fish to breed again?
    Could be interesting if they bequeath some sense for 'home'.
    Anyway, it seems the game has just began. :wink:

    Edit: For the Devs ... you might interpolate the parents.should.coordinates;
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    Elicio wrote: »
    Ah....this sheds more light on it. Maybe my own fish going in a straight line to what I thought was their old kelp home was only a direction coincidense....if all your fish make a striaght line this likely means their "origin" does reset to something strange, as well as my own did after being picked up and moved far from their original location. This requires more testing, but if its the case, this will explain even an AI reset of their "home" to something odd under certain player-influenced circumstances.

    Not all of them left immediately. Some stayed around for awhile and as lxh put it, I've got some "friendlies" that have stayed - one boomerang, one hoverfish I think. I thought I had a resident Peeper but he's vanished too. They seem to want to leave the vicinity fairly quickly though there's no real pattern to it, it's not like they're all going the same exact way.
    lxh wrote: »
    Did you ever try to take your 'friendly' fish to breed again?
    Could be interesting if they bequeath some sense for 'home'.
    Anyway, it seems the game has just began. :wink:

    Edit: For the Devs ... you might interpolate the parents.should.coordinates;

    That's a good idea! I'll see if I can find the resident hoverfish and try breeding some more. I highly doubt there's something that sophisticated going on (genetic personality traits?!) and is just coincidental but who knows.

    I've now released enough of each species that *should* inhabit the area to know they are just not hanging around my Habitat at all, even if they were 'born' there in the breeding tanks.

    The other biomes are all doing great though - I wonder if some of my released fish have moved there! I have two resident Gasopods nearby (not the same two that were originally by my habitat) so I know they still exist. I have visited the other kelp forests and they have Stalkers in them... so the biomes seem to be working everywhere but the ones I'm in frequently.

  • TenebrousNovaTenebrousNova England Join Date: 2015-12-23 Member: 210206Members
    edited January 2016
    Found something interesting just now. I finally tried out the farming tray and planted lots of creepvine in it. Ambient shoals of hoopfish began to congregate in the area (This is a dead zone and there were no shoals before) and a day later, I find a group of baby hoopfish have spawned in the vicinity. I didn't breed them and I certainly didn't put them there, I just noticed several tiny green lights moving around. My theory is that the hoopfish shoals are somehow capable of reproducing. Further testing is required.

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  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    edited January 2016
    @TenebrousNova

    Yes! I meant to expand on that further in my essay at the top of this page. It seems the Creepvine planters are causing these tiny hoopfish schools to form. I believe they may spawn schools of boomerang too though that may have been coincidental to the area.

    Nice addition to the discussion, thank you for posting some screenshots of this in action! :)

    I would very much like to know if there will be future ways to repopulate areas depending on what sorts of flora you introduce or plant there.

    Here is a shot right after I first started to grow farming trays outside my new habitat I just built. You can see only one school and a few other shoals starting in this one:

    Wd85Ng2.jpg

    Only a day or so later, with additional trays added to the outer areas of the 'lagoon' I am building (terraformed walls around perimeter) you can now see multiple schools ... thousands of hoopfish!

    PSWZYho.jpg

    *Fixed the links!

    I need to get some more recent shots now that I have completed the terraformed lagoon and added more trays to the outer edges (for lighting mostly) it's insane now how many schools of hoopfish there are!

    This solution makes me very happy.

    I am still frustrated at trying to reintroduce food fishes into the biome but that's an entirely different issue. My habitat is very lively!
  • TenebrousNovaTenebrousNova England Join Date: 2015-12-23 Member: 210206Members
    edited January 2016
    @Vexare

    Bloody hell, that's a lot of hoopfish. It's almost like attracting bees and butterflies to your garden by providing certain flowers.
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    @Vexare

    Bloody hell, that's a lot of hoopfish. It's almost like attracting bees and butterflies to your garden by providing certain flowers.

    Yes indeed! The more planters of creepvine, the more hoopfish... so hopefully this means in the future other types of fish will also congregate around other types of things you plant!
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Uh ... wow! Well done, guys!
    Pffff, I should really stop reading this thread now. You spoiler the whole fun ;)
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    lxh wrote: »
    Uh ... wow! Well done, guys!
    Pffff, I should really stop reading this thread now. You spoiler the whole fun ;)

    Maybe I should put a spoiler tag on the first post? I probably wrongly assume those coming to this forum already know most of this stuff. Easy to forget Experimental isn't played by everyone. Sorry!
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    Vexare wrote: »
    lxh wrote: »
    Uh ... wow! Well done, guys!
    Pffff, I should really stop reading this thread now. You spoiler the whole fun ;)

    Maybe I should put a spoiler tag on the first post? I probably wrongly assume those coming to this forum already know most of this stuff. Easy to forget Experimental isn't played by everyone. Sorry!

    Well, I think this thread in general is very interesting, informing, philosophical and ethical "food for thought". You might just spoiler your achievements!
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I have not yet released a lot of fish.. part of me hoped for a installation which would auto release the surplus every x time.

    I am getting much more enthusiastic seeing the screenshots though.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    auto release

    Hi DC_Darkling! :)

    Good to see you linked in! As I know you to be a tech fan ... (nothing against, I'm sort of too) ... but don't you think an 'auto release' of enormous amounts of fish was pure symptom control? I guess the request is to figure out the true balance and subsequently act in its sense. Otherwise we'd end up with hundreds of self releasing breeding stations, spread all over.

    However, it's like an old wisdom says: Prevention is better than treatment. But who knows ... it is generally known that a good software provides more than just one single approach. ;)

    Cheers man!
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    True true.. prevention is totally better.
    I must admit I did not think over the entire situation fully. I tend to not overthink alpha stuff because its such big subject to change. :D
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    I agree that it should be up to the player to limit his own impact on the ecosystem. Perhaps there could be an option to craft advanced sensors to count life signs within a seabase's biome , giving instant feedback on the ecosystem's integrity. That may not tell you which species is fine and which is endangered , though.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    Ok so I read it all and I think its a excellent idea to have us research our surroundings.
    On anything.

    * How does it work.
    * Did the Aurora do odd stuff to some biomes?
    * Are we making some kind of wrong impact? etc etc.


    This will improve a lot of the longer play. Eventually the world size is finite. Having us do more and more works for this.

    Of course it needs to unlock somehow on higher levels only, so you need to go back.
  • rrichard2rrichard2 Bacon Join Date: 2015-06-17 Member: 205549Members
    edited January 2016
    The fact that there are no more fish after you eat them all or you all die is simply unrealistic. It's an ocean planet that should have fish going everywhere, there shouldn't be places where there's just no fish. No matter how much you hunt, an oceanic planet should be having billions of fish, impossible to run out. Re spawning fish should be implemented in for example loading a save. Or they should have fish spawns around the map that take different paths across the entire map so that fish will never be...gone. (But that's most likely not going to happen considering in experimental all they do is load the world 10 feet around you, with only these spawns as you can even sometimes see the fish just spawn in in front of your eyes most of the time. as you can literally see it loading a few feet in front of your eyes. This honestly seemed very lazy of the developers to make the game like this, it saddens me. These 10 feet loads keep causing severe fps drops which just makes the game a worse experience too. As you literally see everything pop up in front of your camera, (most likely causing the fps drops, in the first place), I hope they bring about a better idea about fish (And smoother + farther away loading so that everything doesn't pop up 10 feet in front of me) or this game isn't going to feel like an aquatic ocean world. It's just going to be a dead, virtual, sea with every unrealistic aspect to it.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    edited January 2016
    Stakhanov wrote: »
    there could be an option to craft advanced sensors to count life signs within a seabase's biome , giving instant feedback on the ecosystem's integrity. That may not tell you which species is fine and which is endangered , though.

    Yep, that was my thought too while trying to count the fish stock of a certain area. Impossible. It could also be very handy if there was the ability to mark single fish.

    rrichard2 wrote: »
    The fact that there are no more fish after you eat them all or you all die is simply unrealistic. It's an ocean planet that should have fish going everywhere, there shouldn't be places where there's just no fish. No matter how much you hunt, an oceanic planet should be having billions of fish, impossible to run out.

    Hehehe, vanishing fauna is definitely not exclusively caused by overfishing. Did you read the whole thread? Go on! *G


  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    Thanks all who have given continued feedback and thoughts on the situation.

    I'll quote this simple line by lxh as my research thesis summary statement:
    lxh wrote: »
    ... vanishing fauna is definitely not exclusively caused by overfishing.

    This is, from my extensive research, the biggest problem that needs addressed by development. It is not the player's direct action (over-fishing) that is causing a depletion of fish and other wildlife (ambient creatures) in a specific biome.

    In a post (Jan 03) by Developer "Obraxis" on the Steam forums that initially brought me here to begin my long Ecology studies, it is stated:
    "We want people to explore the world. IN the upcoming large aquarium update you'll be able to hatch and breed fish, and you can then re-introduce them back into the wild if stocks are depleted."

    It is found, without error, to be impossible to do that in the current state of the experimental game.

    Summary of Findings:

    1. You can build 1 Large Aquarium and self-sustain yourself very easily on reproducing fish so as not to deplete your surrounding biome - working!
    2. You can build Farming trays for creepvine and an infinite supply of that as well. Cannot reproduce acid mushrooms or corals - semi working!
    3. Farming trays of creepvine attract 'ambient' schools of small fish which look fantastic around your base (see previous photos) - working!
    4. Predator fish are continuing to deplete local food fish populations even when the player is not. - not working!
    5. Predator fish are forced to move into shallows biomes or to vanish altogether - not working!
    6. Catch-Breed-Release program (as currently exists in experimental) does not repopulate fish in your immediate area. They vacate. - not working!

    *Note: No 'eggs' were found to be in existence in current build of experimental so I reserve some of my final results until that method can be further tested.

    Overall I am happy with the additional content/changes that will vastly improve the state of the stable build game and much of the 'barren/lifeless' complaints should resolve with those additions.

    I'd love developer feedback on the problem of fish leaving the immediate area when released - even those 'native' to that biome and raised in captivity aquariums do not stay around long.

    The only way I have been able to keep fish around is by completely enclosing the release area outside my habitat with an artificial wall built via the terraformer tool. That was fun to do, but doesn't solve the problem as a longterm solution nor will that be an effort most players will want to undertake in order to create a 'fish-bowl' environment.

    Again, I'll reserve final judgement once I can test out the egg hatching methods mentioned. If those produce fish that remain in the biome where they hatch - at least nearby your base - then a solution to the barren shallows issue could be found.
  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    I think vanishing breed fish is not a bug, it's a feature,Vexare ... a gaming challenge if you like.
    I've tested to breed a second generation of my 'friendly' fish in the latest experimental version of the game. So I took two homegrown peepers that have been so kind to stay near my base and put them into an empty(!) water park. This second generation really seems to stay so far. Besides that I've noticed - it's not verified yet - that they like or need some airsacks in their surroundings to stay, and since there are some additional garryfish, boomerangs and the creepvine-attracted ton of hoopfish (not only schools), most of all stays. It's getting too much soon, I've difficulties to approach my base by seamoth without crashing them. Hehe ...
    Well, it looks like there has just to be the correct specimen amount relation within the second generation.

    I can not verify that they are already breeding in the 'wild'. Just don't know enough yet.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    Actually eggs are in last I tried.. The spadefish eggs just fine.
    Its just no longer food.

    Edible fish seem to skip the egg phase.
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    lxh wrote: »
    I think vanishing breed fish is not a bug, it's a feature,Vexare ... a gaming challenge if you like.
    I've tested to breed a second generation of my 'friendly' fish in the latest experimental version of the game. So I took two homegrown peepers that have been so kind to stay near my base and put them into an empty(!) water park. This second generation really seems to stay so far. Besides that I've noticed - it's not verified yet - that they like or need some airsacks in their surroundings to stay, and since there are some additional garryfish, boomerangs and the creepvine-attracted ton of hoopfish (not only schools), most of all stays. It's getting too much soon, I've difficulties to approach my base by seamoth without crashing them. Hehe ...
    Well, it looks like there has just to be the correct specimen amount relation within the second generation.

    I can not verify that they are already breeding in the 'wild'. Just don't know enough yet.

    Interesting! I hadn't gotten to that point - I gave up too soon it seems! I figured there was no point in re-breeding another pair but perhaps I should try again.
    Actually eggs are in last I tried.. The spadefish eggs just fine.
    Its just no longer food.

    Edible fish seem to skip the egg phase.

    I guess I don't understand the egg system then ... do they simply lay eggs inside the aquariums or do you have to somehow do something? I have put just about every fish in the aquariums except spadefish ... doesn't that figure. I never even stopped to collect those on deeper dives.

    Maybe I'll try again though I've just about exhausted my energy and interest for the time being with 20 hours on a regular game save and another 25 or so now on my experimental build save.

    If others would continue the research in the direction of multiple generational fish breeding, I'd be grateful. I may get to it later this coming week.

  • lxhlxh Austria Join Date: 2015-03-13 Member: 202074Members
    edited January 2016
    Vexare wrote: »
    I figured there was no point in re-breeding another pair

    I can't tell you the difference, Vexare. I can only speculate, not knowing if some of these points do matter.
    I ...
    • closed the radiation leak very quickly in game
    • started early to get reginalds and salt from far away
    • didn't plunder the surrounding of my base (there's still quartz, ore, mushrooms, ...)
    • didn't ever take everything from one place
    • did always drive carefully *g
    • released only pairs
    • had (perhaps) the newer experimental version running on my tests
    • or simply more luck and the better 'place'

    Don't give it up! Here's no one else with your special sort of inquiring mind :)
    Cheers
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    I am not giving up by any means - just taking a little break. I played so much over the weekend I'm all water-logged so to speak! ;)
  • AstrogatorAstrogator Join Date: 2016-01-11 Member: 211257Members
    edited January 2016
    Hey!

    I just came across this forum and stumbled upon this thread, and I must say, nice work! Very interesting stuff! I've been working on breeding and trying to repopulate the deserts I have created over the course of the game (mainly the Shallows and the surrounding Kelp Forest, who are completely depleted) myself. So far I have made largely the same observations, fish that I released near my base disappearing after a little time, f.e., and I always tried to replenish them. Even those that tended to stay around for a few days, however, were gone after some time. Stalkers were eradicated around my base after the last one I kept arround attacked me when I fed him.

    Today I made an interesting observation. Some of the fish I had released where all swimming in a straight line, all together on the same course. One Peeper, two Hoverfish, two Garryfish and a Reginald were all swimming in the same direction - away from my base in the Kelp Forest towards the northwest into the Shallows. When I followed them, I found a large group of fish that hadn't been there previously - the whole area around them was barren and had been for weeks. The group contains several peepers, some Hoverfish, a large number of Boomerangs and Hoopfish as well as some Garryfish, Airsacks and Reginalds, all species that I have released - and at least the Hoopfish, Hoverfish and Reginalds aren't native to the Safe Shallows, so they have to either have migrated there from another biome - or from the locations where I released them. The location where they gathered is roughly at -17, -4, 13.5.

    Maybe artificially bred fish move to a certain location after release? Other fish seem to have taken of in different direction, and the number seems to be not consistent with what I think I have released, so there are some discrepancies (not enough Garryfish, f.e.), but since I haven't been keeping log, I can't say. Just thought I'd share that observation with you guys here.

    Edit:

    Alright, it seems my hypothesis has been confirmed. I've released three Gerryfish (at least one of them must have been a new spawn since I started only with one breeding pair) and observed them all swimming in the same direction - towards the large gathering of fish I had observed earlier!

    The three Gerryfish leaving their release area, heading northeast:

    3725789E2D3614F7B41E10267D27853A33F6E136

    Here is another group of fish swimming in the same direction:

    DE8E8CA59D3CDE692E02E19D5033E763C25C1198

    They all joined the larger group, which mainly keeps close to the surface. Here's an image of the group:

    ED87B91C9F56F00B3BF1FDEBB688DA65EF211835

    To test this further, I released a single Reginald off to the Northwest of that group, and he immediately began to head southeast, joining his 'friends'.
  • VexareVexare Austin,TX Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210942Members
    edited January 2016
    @Astrogator

    This is fantastic additional information to add to our ongoing ecology mystery - thank you so much for the details and screenshots!

    I have suspected there's some sort of 'homing' beacon in the fish AI but I had no idea what or how to test.

    As an added update to my own independent research... I've totally enclosed my underwater habitat in terraformed walls other than one small tunnel opening that was already there via the 'tube' rock formation nearest the lifepod. My own catch/release observations are now similar to yours although mine cannot physically leave anymore and are congregating at the side of the artificial lagoon closest towards the Aurora. I will get some compass headings of fish I release at various sides of the lagoon and also outside of it and report this back tomorrow.

    Your observations renewed my interest in further studies! :)
  • SpacedInvaderSpacedInvader Join Date: 2016-01-08 Member: 211083Members
    edited January 2016
    I've finally finished reading through *most* of this thread (you guys write too much :p) and have a couple of theories of my own to add. First, I believe the dead-zone effect around bases is probably a result of the fact that players spend a lot more time in and around their bases than they do in any other location on the map, as a result the area around the base is active in the game much more than any other area. Now, I'm guessing that the game only simulates the life cycle of any particular fish while you're within spawn range, meaning that no fish can die unless you're near it. These two concepts, when taken together, mean that any fish unlucky enough to live near your base is much more likely to get eaten by something (you or another predator) as its being simulated much longer than a fish not within the active area around your base. This is just a theory, of course, but it seems to fit as travelling a few hundred meters (not sure what the actual spawn distance is, but turning off water volume would lead me to believe its at least 250m) in any direction from your base usually finds healthy fish populations of all types.

    Now, what this doesn't explain is why everything you release always swims off in the same direction, but at least it might explain why the area around a base becomes a dead zone fairly quickly. Personally, I think the ecosystem should be stable without player involvement, meaning the fish breed (or spawn) at a rate capable of keeping up with natural predation, and then that balance could be upset or restored based on player actions. Ideally this would have a knock-on effect up the food chain, where over fishing an area would deplete the prey stocks, leading the predators to find food elsewhere, but then reintroducing fish to the local environment would bring the predators back. It might even go so far as to entice even larger predators to show up if you over populate the area... imagine releasing too many fish, only to get stuck with a reaper hunting bone sharks around your base...

    EDIT: If any Dev reads this, please at least implement respawning / breeding at a level sufficient to balance out natural predation. Non-respawning fish might force the player to go ever further afield to get food if they don't farm, but thanks to the fact that there is predation, the ultimate result of this can only be that the ocean is completely barren of life. This might take a while, but it still means that there is limited longevity for any one game save as exploring in a barren and lifeless seascape would get boring really quick...
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