Cr4zy Alien Vision with optional Bite Aid

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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    @Kouji_San "Huze's old AV"? I think you are mistaken, sir. :)

    I'm just going by the name in NS2+, not Huze's Old Alien Vision. Which is the true Alpha AV, with orange viewmodels as well :D

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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 688 Advanced user
    Calego wrote: »
    Kasharic wrote: »
    I want a bite aid customization option added damnit! :p

    Or a mod that adds a bite aid over ANY AV, including those provided by NS2+

    I want Bite aid put into Vanilla, so no one can complain about it being 'unfair'. And also so it's there by default.

    I genuinely don't understand the argument that the bite aid is unfair to be honest... people keep saying its like aim assist, but aim assist is a minor target lock... the bite aid is just like the sound notifications that are already in the game (that no one complains about)
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  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,954 Fully active user
    If it went into vanilla I would disable it in the NSL mod, simple as that.

    As said before the bite aid cross a line where its not just reducing obscurity. The sound notifications trigger when you have already hit, they don't play when you are in range of being able to hit something. Its a slippery slope where you are really starting to get into territory that really can be classified as an 'aim assist'. I don't really care much either way on the bite aid, but more about ensuring integrity of people that are playing.
    Cr4zyb4st4rdKasharicCalegoSantaClaws
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 688 Advanced user
    xDragon wrote: »
    If it went into vanilla I would disable it in the NSL mod, simple as that.

    As said before the bite aid cross a line where its not just reducing obscurity. The sound notifications trigger when you have already hit, they don't play when you are in range of being able to hit something. Its a slippery slope where you are really starting to get into territory that really can be classified as an 'aim assist'. I don't really care much either way on the bite aid, but more about ensuring integrity of people that are playing.

    Thats fine, it makes sense.... while you're at it, you should disable the ability to remove view models.
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  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 426 Advanced user
    This has been discussed on my stream several times. The conclusion I have come to is that the removal of view models is more analogous to a change in FOV, whereas anything that tells you when targets are in range is very close to an aim assist. Personally, I think it would be a great tool for players new to the game to learn how the melee attacks function. However, I believe it crosses the line when it comes to competitive play.
    SantaClaws
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 688 Advanced user
    Golden wrote: »
    This has been discussed on my stream several times. The conclusion I have come to is that the removal of view models is more analogous to a change in FOV, whereas anything that tells you when targets are in range is very close to an aim assist. Personally, I think it would be a great tool for players new to the game to learn how the melee attacks function. However, I believe it crosses the line when it comes to competitive play.

    I totally agree bud, I was being sarcastic :P (albeit not clearly enough it seems)

    I think the incorporation of a bite aid to vanilla IS needed to help people learn the bite cone and ranges etc of the alien abilities... but that kind of guide shouldn't be wanted and/or needed in competitive play.

    @Dragon I hope you would incorporate an on/off console command for the bite aid so that in official games it can be disabled, because the TAW servers use the nsl mod and we play casually during clan time.
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  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    @Dragon I hope you would incorporate an on/off console command for the bite aid so that in official games it can be disabled, because the TAW servers use the nsl mod and we play casually during clan time.

    This.
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  • Cr4zyb4st4rdCr4zyb4st4rd United Kingdom Join Date: 2012-08-09 Member: 155200Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 210 Fully active user
    I would expect if, if added, to be done as disabled on the 'sv_nslcfg official' mode and not the 'pcw' mode used in gathers etc, but I can't say.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 688 Advanced user
    I would expect if, if added, to be done as disabled on the 'sv_nslcfg official' mode and not the 'pcw' mode used in gathers etc, but I can't say.

    Thats what I'm hoping... but I'm sure there will be complaints from gatherers about the bite aid being used... even though gathers are meant to be for fun and not take too seriously.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,954 Fully active user
    Ideally yes it would work that way.. but given how the servers are run.. I probably would add it to the 'gather' config so that its disabled on pcw/official.. Sadly most actual games dont get played on official because 'reasons'
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Golden wrote: »
    This has been discussed on my stream several times. The conclusion I have come to is that the removal of view models is more analogous to a change in FOV, whereas anything that tells you when targets are in range is very close to an aim assist. Personally, I think it would be a great tool for players new to the game to learn how the melee attacks function. However, I believe it crosses the line when it comes to competitive play.

    I totally agree bud, I was being sarcastic :P (albeit not clearly enough it seems)
    I wonder where people could get the idea that you were not being sarcastic??
    Kasharic wrote: »
    I genuinely don't understand the argument that the bite aid is unfair to be honest...
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 688 Advanced user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Golden wrote: »
    This has been discussed on my stream several times. The conclusion I have come to is that the removal of view models is more analogous to a change in FOV, whereas anything that tells you when targets are in range is very close to an aim assist. Personally, I think it would be a great tool for players new to the game to learn how the melee attacks function. However, I believe it crosses the line when it comes to competitive play.

    I totally agree bud, I was being sarcastic :P (albeit not clearly enough it seems)
    I wonder where people could get the idea that you were not being sarcastic??
    Kasharic wrote: »
    I genuinely don't understand the argument that the bite aid is unfair to be honest...

    One statement (the second one you quoted) is about vanilla NS2 (the bit where I can't understand why people would say it shouldn't be in the game)

    The other quote was in relation to a totally different comment in which I was being sarcastic... "Thats fine, it makes sense.... while you're at it, you should disable the ability to remove view models." <--- Sarcasm... and it is in reference to the bite aid being used in competitive play.<br>
    2 different comments... 2 different situations.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    All other things aside, bite aid toggle should definitely be in NS2+ though.
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
    Kasharic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    I am sure most reading this have read the hitreg testing instructions I have posted. If not, they are in my signature. One night I was playing ns2 and this veteran player, with ~1700 hive skill, was saying that the alien hitreg is terrible. He was saying more than 50% of his bites were no regs. So I linked him the instructions and walked him through testing it. He played aliens for an hour. He did not have a single no reg confirmed by the hitreg command. After further testing I found out he just did not have an accurate idea of where the bitecone was.

    This veteran player could really benefit from the bite aid.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • Cr4zyb4st4rdCr4zyb4st4rd United Kingdom Join Date: 2012-08-09 Member: 155200Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 210 Fully active user
    edited February 2016
    So work in progress, this is now in my local mod of ns2+, not ready yet gotta add all the options for this too and make sure it works properly ^_^

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    Post edited by Cr4zyb4st4rd on
    KasharicNominousYojimboBlrg
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    Golden wrote: »
    whereas anything that tells you when targets are in range is very close to an aim assist.

    I think classing it as near an aim assist, is incorrect, it does not assist your aim, as in, it makes no change to your aim. It may tell you to not press bite now, or it may tell you pressing bite now would land a hit, but it still requires you to adjust your aim, and it still requires you to register the bite aid has appeared, and then press the mouse.

    If you are waiting for the bite aid to appear, before pressing mouse, you are potentially slower than someone who knows without the aid.

    I can see why it would be questionable in Comp, but to call it an aim assist is to lump it in with a very different category of player tool. It is merely a new player aid that would be outmatched by proper skilled player knowledge.
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  • NominousNominous Baltimore, MD Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Members Posts: 325 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Golden wrote: »
    whereas anything that tells you when targets are in range is very close to an aim assist.

    I think classing it as near an aim assist, is incorrect, it does not assist your aim, as in, it makes no change to your aim. It may tell you to not press bite now, or it may tell you pressing bite now would land a hit, but it still requires you to adjust your aim, and it still requires you to register the bite aid has appeared, and then press the mouse.

    If you are waiting for the bite aid to appear, before pressing mouse, you are potentially slower than someone who knows without the aid.

    I can see why it would be questionable in Comp, but to call it an aim assist is to lump it in with a very different category of player tool. It is merely a new player aid that would be outmatched by proper skilled player knowledge.
    Traditionally, it doesn't fit the definition of aim assist since this term is specific to consoles. For PC multiplayer games, I consider the definition to be broader. The bite aid does not make active changes to your aim like in console games, but it does provide you with visual feedback for melee range, aiming, and knowing when to press M1. Therefore, I would consider it as aim assist for this game since it is assisting your aim in these ways.

    TF2 has a similar mechanic in the form of the spy's backstab animation. It's there to help spies determine whether they're in sufficient range and position for a backstab (rear 180' arc) or a pitifully weak attack (front 180' arc). I consider it as aim assist. All other melee weapons for other classes do not have the luxury of a melee range "ready" animation or indicator even if melee is viable for them as a primary play style (e.g. pyro, demo, etc.). They just have to estimate melee range on their own like in most other FPS games. Ranged is often the superior play style (perhaps arguably for demo on certain maps) or it can be used in conjunction with melee to great effect (e.g. pyro). Spies are the exception since backstabs are crucial to their kill count. Trying to determine backstab positioning and timing, especially from the enemy's sides, would be frustrating without that animation. Some third person PC games like Smite have a form of non-target-lock aim assist, such as range indicators for cone or charge attacks.

    Concerning the potential to be slower at attacking than someone who doesn't use the bite aid, I somewhat disagree. Aliens should not be holding down M1 in the first place, which is a bad habit I tend to have. Holding down M1 and relying purely on reflexes/prediction/bad marine movement is lazy and will mess up your accuracy when you suddenly run into a marine who jukes unpredictably. Timing your bites when you're sure you'll hit might make your attacks slower overall, but your accuracy becomes more consistent vs. marines of all skill levels. The bite aid makes timing bites easier due to the immediate visual feedback, although most rookies probably don't know this. They'll probably continue holding M1 or get caught up in the visual opportunity the bite aid presents and get M1 tunnel vision instead of retreating, juking, or whatnot. It can potentially be bad for those still learning how to survive, but I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages for rookies who are trying to get better at aliens.

    Concerning alien aids, isn't it about time for a visually updated debugspeed bar that can be used in pubs? @Cr4zyb4st4rd @Mendasp Something with a red to green (or choose your own colors) gradient from standstill to fast speed. Also, it would be great to able to change its orientation/shape from horizontal to vertical to curved. A small curved speed bar incorporated with NS2+'s curved HP/energy bars next to the crosshair is my dream. I appreciate the fact that the bar exists for use in listen servers, but being able to use it in pubs would greatly aid players of all skill levels for learning and optimizing alien movement during real gameplay. I would turn it on by default for new players since speed is so crucial for aliens.
    Post edited by Nominous on
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited February 2016
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    It is merely a new player aid that would be outmatched by proper skilled player knowledge.

    I agree it would help new players a lot, but it would also help a lot of veterans.
    Nordic wrote: »
    I am sure most reading this have read the hitreg testing instructions I have posted. If not, they are in my signature. One night I was playing ns2 and this veteran player, with ~1700 hive skill, was saying that the alien hitreg is terrible. He was saying more than 50% of his bites were no regs. So I linked him the instructions and walked him through testing it. He played aliens for an hour. He did not have a single no reg confirmed by the hitreg command. After further testing I found out he just did not have an accurate idea of where the bitecone was.

    This veteran player could really benefit from the bite aid.

    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    Ok, what about the games where your crosshair changes color when over an enemy, this has been in various PC games for years. As I said, it is an indicator, not an assist. They are two different things. I agree it is controversial for comp mod, and see why it would be veto'd for that, but I just get tired of people lumping things together that are very different things.

    More clarity helps everybody. Sure comp players shouldn't need these indicators, but they are just indicators.
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  • NominousNominous Baltimore, MD Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Members Posts: 325 Advanced user
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Ok, what about the games where your crosshair changes color when over an enemy, this has been in various PC games for years. As I said, it is an indicator, not an assist. They are two different things. I agree it is controversial for comp mod, and see why it would be veto'd for that, but I just get tired of people lumping things together that are very different things.

    More clarity helps everybody. Sure comp players shouldn't need these indicators, but they are just indicators.
    I did some research and it seems you're right. I always get target lock, auto aim, and aim assist mixed up. The term "aim assist" sounds the most ambiguous out of these, so I've been lumping up anything related to assisting aim, including range/crosshair indicators, using this term. I don't play console games, so I've probably been misusing this term all this time. Yes, the bite aid is an indicator, but I felt like this word was too generic and didn't do justice to how advantageous it can be. Due to its effectiveness, perhaps golden considered it as aim assist even though it doesn't literally function like one. "Due to the stark color contrast, it compels you more than usual to lock onto the target. It's as if the NS2 gods touched thee and blessed thy hand with divine aim assist..." Maybe I'm reaching a bit here, lol.
  • KaiAllardLiaoKaiAllardLiao Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111800Members Posts: 24 Fully active user
    the bite aid looks to me more akin to the crosshair for a marines gun. it lets you see where your shot will hit. if a marine can put a crosshair over something to know where it'll land it's hits from across entire lengths of hallway, why can't the aliens have a color shift to know where their melee attack will hit? it honestly feels fitting for the alien faction by comparison, and you still have to pull the trigger as it were for the attack to hit. it doesn't even mean the hit will land, since the marine can still dodge at the last minute or your trajectory may carry you past when you time the bite.

    for a comparative example, why not try taking the crosshair away from the marines? if aliens should 'have to know' through practice where their bitecone is, why don't marines have to know via practice where their aiming their guns? *no, i'm not recognizing the whole 'cause guns have sights' angle, since the mechanics of having to bite as an alien creature would be a lot simpler. how often do dogs miss bites due to hand-eye coordination, for example?* just food for thought......
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    This is a really neat mod; I can see it help people a great deal and wish I had noticed it sooner. Sadly, I find the bite aid highly distracting on lifeforms that I'm used to - however, I'm currently trying to get into fading, and it seems to make it much easier for me to hit something. Static targets, that is. Tomorrow I'll try in an actual game.

    So I agree, I can see this helping rookies a lot.
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    I just played on Tactical Freedom and wasn't able to turn biteaid off. (It also looked different (and obnoxious)). Tested it on a listen server and it worked. What's up with that?
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  • ShamelessCookieShamelessCookie United States Join Date: 2014-06-11 Member: 196499Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer Posts: 35 Advanced user
    @F0rdPrefect I operate Tactical Freedom. Feel free to reach out to me so we can figure it out: http://steamcommunity.com/id/ShamelessCookie/
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    edited April 2016
    .
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    edited April 2016
    @F0rdPrefect I operate Tactical Freedom. Feel free to reach out to me so we can figure it out: http://steamcommunity.com/id/ShamelessCookie/

    Thanks! I sent you a request.

    Apparently I can't turn off bite aid on any server, but at least it looks normal on other ones.

    edit: Oh, screw this forum software. Sorry for the repeated double posts.
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    edited April 2016
    After some testing I've come to the conclusion that the "accurate range" mod does not work on servers. (Possibly this is normal and I'm just missing something.)
    Not only can I not turn biteaid off while playing on a server (as opposed to sandbox/listen server), the green cone also looks like in the standard version of the mod.

    Since Tactical Freedom was full I could not take a look there; I still have no idea why it would look entirely different there.

    edit: Tactical Freedom was empty just now so I was able to test it there. Bite aid looked normal, so I guess that was just a one time bug and nothing server specific.
    Post edited by Vetinari on
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  • Cr4zyb4st4rdCr4zyb4st4rd United Kingdom Join Date: 2012-08-09 Member: 155200Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 210 Fully active user
    @F0rdPrefect the accurate range is a server mod, if the server doesnt run it it shouldnt have any impact. If the servers do run it and it doesnt work it probably got broken somehow in a patch. I was aware of a bug that caused it to render incorrectly but I could never figure out the cause and a restart of the game (or maybe a reconnect even) fixed it.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    @F0rdPrefect the accurate range is a server mod, if the server doesnt run it it shouldnt have any impact. If the servers do run it and it doesnt work it probably got broken somehow in a patch. I was aware of a bug that caused it to render incorrectly but I could never figure out the cause and a restart of the game (or maybe a reconnect even) fixed it.

    Ah, good to know. I'm sorry I didn't take a screenshot of that bug when it happened. I also I guess I never ran into a server that runs it :D
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