not sandbox,nor building,nor a survival game

Deepo

i feel that subnautica strayed far from its innitial ideas.

the game designer charly cleveland once said :

"We're not making a sandbox game, nor a building game, nor a survival game, although at times we thought we were," he says.
"We're building a game where you feel like a scientist who has crash-landed on an aquatic alien world and is learning how it (and its strange inhabitants) work.
It's a game of exploration, discovery and theme."

thats why i bought this game in the first place. but it is now a survival-building game and the science part is reduced to automatic analyzers and bizarre headscratchers like cubic salt deposits in the water and such.

i still love the game for what it is - it´s fun but i´m kindof sad that Charly Clevelands ideas seem to be abandoned. hopefully i´m wrong. we will see

i think this could be a much better discussion than weapons yes or no. in the game charly cleveland envisioned it wouldnt be a big issue i think.
and that could have been a good basis for the story too.

make the player feel like a tiny scientist in an huge alien ocean. give him relatively simple tools to observe and study and make the alien ocean the main-character and make the player understand that he just serves science and discovery in front of a much bigger picture.

but it has been all designed to be a survival-building game with exploration like so many others so maybe its too late for that ...

destroyah87

Well ... while you're not wrong. This is still a game in early access. And I know that might sound like an excuse or a shield to hide behind but hear me out.

Only time will tell if the final version of the game stays as it is currently or hews closer to that single quote. But the thing is, the survival part, the base building part, the basic exploration. Those are the easy things to do, so it does make sense that they'd be implemented first. They're also the bedrock on which the science and discovery and story has to rest on, so it also makes sense they'd be implemented first. We've seen inklings of a story being worked on and there's mention of using the pad to provide lore and research messages.

So, I don't say your comments should be dismissed or that you're wrong to feel this way. All I do say is be patient and just keep watching where the game goes. I'm not seeing anything that's convinced me the dev's have abandoned the game's initial core themes just to churn out a basic crafting/survival game that happens to be set in an alien ocean. What I am seeing is a software development team that's checking off the tick marks in their goal sheet that are easiest to implement and offer concrete results now, visible to the players and the developers themselves.

lorcogoth

the science part is indeed very small but there is going to be more of it with the specimen analyser and DNA-based buffs and other stuff.

and to be honest salt does crystalize in "squarish" crystals under the right circumstances

Naali

Salt deposits itself in sometimes. I can see where your concerns are, but honestly this game is still really fun to me. With the addition of the DNA thingy, and some more fauna/flora and farming it'll be a little more "sciency" I think. Though it would be really cool if you could "create" an encyclopedia of sorts by seeing/interacting with the various flora and fauna. I'm all for it being more of a science adventure as well, as I'd got a soft spot for zoology/botany.

Racer1

If you watch trello, you will see that work is being done on the science/research end. I doubt it will ever be as big a part as you appear to want it to be, but there will be more.

Arbinator

The way I see it, they're trying to make a sort of open world adventure game. Think Skyrim, except with only one quest and several survival mods installed. They're giving you the freedom to do whatever, but as you do whatever you do, you learn more about the planet and what happened to the Aurora.

Deepo

well i watch trello almost every day - and i play the game every few weeks to see updates. and i dont see much of charly clevelands vision being implemented. what i see is a open world sandbox, building,survival. judging by the visuals it seems to be more aimed at a young adolescent audience that love survival games than at young and old gamers that love science.

and i´m not making this up - it was the game-designer himself that said it.
it seems to be of little interest on this forum. i posted the same on steam and there are some more people that agree with me.
there are others that want more of Charly Clevelands vision and less survival and building - i´m surprised about the reaction here honestly.

i´m not attacking the game- i love this game even like its heading now. but i bought this because of Mr. Clevelands words. i read that and went right away to buy it on steam. and now i´m waiting for Subnautica to live up to his vision.
hope it happens !

2cough

@deepo, your sentiment is understandable (horticulturist/aquarist here, natural observer), but dont you think the world needs to exist before science can exist within it? The game is not even close to beta. You cant implement m-z without first a - l. As @destroyah87 said,

destroyah87 wrote: »

What I am seeing is a software development team that's checking off the tick marks in their goal sheet that are easiest to implement and offer concrete results now, visible to the players and the developers themselves.

I also think we'll see much more meat and potatoes as development continues and more foundations have been laid.

But who knows?!

En9a9e

It'd be nice to have those quotes you gave in the full context of what he was discussing. One could also read it as "we don't want the game to be any one of those things exclusively", which it isn't. Quite frankly, as we look at the roadmap, I'm not sure why you are indicating this is a concern or what exactly you are expecting.

"We're building a game where you feel like a scientist who has crash-landed on an aquatic alien world and is learning how it (and its strange inhabitants) work.
It's a game of exploration, discovery and theme." <- Charlie's cited quote

"make the player feel like a tiny scientist in an huge alien ocean. give him relatively simple tools to observe and study and make the alien ocean the main-character and make the player understand that he just serves science and discovery in front of a much bigger picture." <- Op quote

I don't see how your accusation stands, that the vision of the game which Charlie described has "been abandoned". In your quote above, you are layering things on which were never stated by Charlie. ( ie "relatively simple tools" and "just serves science and discovery". )

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the story setup doesn't even specify what role your character has on the ship... which had a mission of colonization, not specifically research and science. All I could ascertain was that I am the lone survivor and I better start making use of what I find whether I'm a scientist, engineer, explorer, janitor or now some crazy new amateur combination of all those.

I'm not trying to come off as angry or dismissive at all, I just think your argument is pre-mature at this point and misconstrues explanations about the general vision of the game to fit your claim of abandonment.

I like your excitement about making the alien ocean the main character and I basically agree with that sentiment, but isn't it already so (and has been for a good while) even in this stage of development? I mean if you read the reviews and comments across the forums, it's pretty safe to say that is already an impressive feature of the game with all the fear, wonder, and amazement it has invoked in their descriptions of play. There is also A LOT more to come which will enhance that aspect even more. Looking at the details of this next update you can see it's only going to be realized even better (again).

As was just noted and as others have pointed out, there is still a lot more to come, across many aspects of the game, which I feel pretty certain would include and address what it seems is an issue for you. Story is just now being introduced more via Tom Jubert. In base analyzers, as well as updates to PDA analyzer functionality, are coming. More creatures to study are coming. More environments to explore. More interaction mechanics. More ecosystem mechanics. Research and science is something you best incorporate fully AFTER these things are in place. Guessing here, but it's likely very much a cart before horse scenario in answer to your main assertion. It's all still very much early access.

It was also my understanding, from Charlie and the devs, that the process of development on this game would be fluid (pun intended). Many things may change slightly or significantly based on finding out how the game plays as it comes together, team member comings and goings, intricacy/complexity feasibility, and (especially) player feedback. I very much want a great scientific exploration feel to the game as you expressed, but I also really enjoy the survival and base building aspects as well. I don't know how deep in to the "science" of the fictional setting they will end up going, but I would argue that it HAS been realized within the game even though very limited in its current early stages. Fun factor and "over complicated" considerations also have to made in regard to heavy science focus, when fleshing out the game. Looking at what is to come, as well as continuing brainstorm documents posted, I'd say there is great hope we'll get something that well incorporates your wishes for more science inspired themes.

Deepo

thanks for your comments folks. to En9a9e : you dont come off as angry or dismissive - and i hope i dont come off as such too.

i admit that my post is a little exaggerated on purpose in order to stirr discussion about this. I dont really want to accuse the devs of having abandoned mr. clevelands ideas - i just use the sensationalistic approach to get attention to this concept of the game. in hopes the devs see there are players that still remember this stuff and are waiting for it. in hopes not too much will be cut out in the end - in favor of decorative furniture,multiplayer,co-op etc.

and 2 cough is right- first the world needs to exist before any "sciency gameplay" can be implemented.

in the end i will for sure enjoy what they create - even if it turns out to be different to what i was hoping for. i also admit i´m not quite sure what exactly i was hoping for ... but i´m glad to see there are other players here that want exploration and "science" play a central part.

i trust that the developers will steer this in the right direction and i admit my sentence "i feel that subnautica strayed far from its innitial ideas." is a little over the top.

SrCumference

Honestly, there are two things which I think will make the science pop: The PDA and the DNA interplay. From design docs and trello cards, we also know that there has been some thought about really expanding the role of flat-out chemistry, as well.

Honestly, I think the next few patches will include more of this. We will see flora incorporated and become more than decoration (as food) and we will see analyzation of species and their eggs. These are barely being touched on so far, and there is a lot of potential here. In fact, I worry that the potential (and the vision) are so big that it might not be achievable.

When I was reading about Subnautica for the first time, I imagined watching the different species, and basically having journal entries "unlock" when you observe a species doing something. "Stalkers like metal shiny things" "Stalkers prefer peepers but leave hoverfish alone" "Peepers always swim in groups of odd numbers, never even" and things like that (obviously with a bit more flair). Honestly, I think that is kinda the reason why the "Gallery" function is being added to the PDA (but for all I know, it is an in-game way to make screenshots. I'll be happy either way).

In short, I think that those systems are coming, and I hope they do. I have been absolutely loving Subnautica, and I love to see whatever progress is being made. I think the team is pursuing a very logical method of development, and it is shaping up beautifully. I doubt anything has been forgotten quite yet, although it may take some time to show up.

Either way, I'm excited for the future, impressed by the present, and think fondly on the past.

En9a9e

Cheers Deepo, never hurts to let the devs know what themes/aspects you enjoy most or hope they focus on better.

sayerulz

If anything. I want more survival/building stuff. When I got this game, I was under the impression that that was what it was about. I like science, but I don't feel that it is a good subject for a game. The issue is that having the whole focus of the game being researching things means that it will have very little replayability and a limited lifetime. After a while, a player will simply have researched everything and have nothing left to do. A game should be fun outside of scripted content.