In-world local only voice chat?

Nordic · September 2015

You may or may not have seen this trello card about in-world local only voice chat.
https://trello.com/c/6deHZEOM/784-add-extra-in-world-voice-chat

What would you want to see done with in-world local only voice chat? How would you implement it in game?

For the purposes of this post, I will not use the technical term of "in-world local only voice chat" from the trello card. From this point on I will call it proximity chat.

I have been thinking about proximity chat recently and I think it could be a really nice feature in ns2. I have made this post because I am a fan of the idea, and I would like to propose my ideas about it. This post is not only an avenue to share those ideas but also to gather the forums thoughts, opinions, and hopefully generate a discussion. I think there is a possibility proximity chat could be implemented poorly and create more problems than it is worth. The trello board is vague on functional details. There are two possible implementations that I think will work. Option 1 is a safe bet. It is self-explanatory on how it will function. It adds in a cool new feature, but it leaves behind a lot of potential. Option 2 does not lose that potential, but it does not elaborate on the functional details needed before it could be considered for implementation.

How it would work
So what functional details does option 2 need? Don’t worry, I have thought it all out.

What key bind will it use?
- It should use the V key. It is in a good location on the keyboard. V for voice makes sense. It is far enough away from global voice chat (left alt) key so it would be hard to mistake. There is one problem with this.
  V is already bound as the quick switch key. Most other games use Q for quick switch, but in ns2 it calls for a medpack or a mist. I would leave quick switch unbound, and let those who use it set the bind themselves. That way they can decide which key works best for them. If we can't take V, I would leave proximity chat unbound, and let those who use it set the bind themselves. That way they can decide which key works best for them.
Would proximity chat be on by default in ns2? Or would it need to be enabled by server operators in the server config files? Or would server operators need to install a separate mod?
- Enable only in-world directional audio by default, as Option 1 describes. Allow server operators to enable proximity chat themselves through a config file, or at least through a mod. This gives server operators more self-determination.
If a server does not have proximity chat enabled, what does its key bind do?
- This key bind, on non-enabled servers, would use normal global chat. This way there is minimal disruption.
How could you tell the difference between proximity chat and global chat?
- The trello card states that proximity chat will have a reverb effect and directional audio that clearly differentiates it from global chat. There also needs to be a visual cue. The speaking decal could be a different color, size, font, or whatever. I made a mockup with the speaking decal being grey instead of white. I decided on grey, because it was not biased towards either team. Marines being blue, and alien’s orange/yellow. I also like grey because the white global chat stand out better. Knowing who is near you, the audio cues, and being grey should be enough to know who is speaking and from where. It is harder to know who is speaking if they are on global chat, so white makes more sense. You might be worried that grey text won’t work with grey maps, but look at the picture. It works well enough in my opinion.
What happens when there is chatter on proximity chat, and global chat at the same time?
- Global chat should be given priority over proximity chat. Proximity chat should substantially decrease in volume. I don't know if simply decreasing volume would be enough, so muting and cutting the speaker off might be a better solution. I admit, cutting a speaker off is not ideal. I will address the problem later on in this post.
Would proximity chat need a volume slider in the options?
- Yes. A separate volume slider for proximity chat should be made.
Can the commander use proximity chat?
- No. V is the key bind to recycle for commanders. There are not many good alternative key binds. It would also be confusing having this ghostly voice appear out of nowhere that only talks to you. Out of anyone on the team, the commander has the least need to use proximity chat.
What if I don't want to hear proximity chat?
- There should be another scoreboard option, to mute proximity for a player.

Problems and Concerns
I understand that some of you might see additional concerns with proximity chat. I have tried to answer as many as I can think of.

A. It simply is not necessary in ns2. It will be an unused feature.

Proximity chat can be used to improve teamwork. Instead of using global chat, to ask, "Nordic please weld me?” say it over proximity chat. The rest of the team did not need to hear that request. You could say, "Watch that vent Nordic" over proximity chat. The rest of the team did not need to hear that. "BEHIND YOU NORDIC" is another example of something the rest of the team does not need to hear in global chat. When speaking to another player, I try to use their name. I am not perfect; I do not always use their name. I do not expect every player to use names. I am sure most everyone has heard "BEHIND YOU" over global chat. Some players will check behind them, but most would ignore it because it is probably irrelevant to them. You might say global chat in Option 1 solves this, because there would be an audio cue signaling that the information is relevant. This is true, but does the whole team need to hear you yell "BEHIND YOU" in global chat?
Proximity chat can be used to improve tactics. There are an infinite amount of tactical scenarios where you could use proximity chat. You might tell me, “Let’s kill that fade. You hide in that corner, and I will hide over here." You might say, "Nordic, let’s focus down the crag first." The rest of the team did not need to hear either of those comments. Some people may find that information useful to know, and want that said over global chat. The point is that players might not have said it at all if they did not have proximity chat. Give players a new tool and they will do new things.
Proximity chat has the potential to create a better gaming experience. Large servers are popular. By large I mean 12v12. When someone first experiences ns2 it is most likely going to be on a large server. Then there are giant servers, like wooza 's, which have 21v21 ns2. The larger the server, the more it has to gain from proximity chat. The benefits of proximity chat that I described in my previous three points would have a greater effect on large servers. Since large servers are popular, the net effect of proximity chat could be a better gaming experience.
Proximity chat can be used to socialize more. Have you ever seen players talk about topics unrelated to ns2 in global chat? I have. They usually are asked to stop. The rest of the team does not need to hear that. Most players use teamspeak or mumble instead of talking in game. Not everyone can do this, especially if it is two random strangers who just met in ns2. With proximity chat they could keep talking to each other without bothering the whole team. They might still bother a few other players nearby, but then someone will ask them to stop just like they would now. The point is that they at least have the option and the possibility to socialize. This could create an even stronger sense of community in ns2.
We do not know how proximity chat will be used. I just gave at least 3 simplistic examples of how I think proximity would be used. I could be entirely wrong, and so could those who think proximity chat would not work in ns2. In academic studies, social theories are considered exciting if they predict 30% of behavior. That leaves 70% unexplained. We have no clue what will happen if we introduce a new tool. Giving people a new form of communication, and they will communicate differently. If proximity chat was added into ns2 today, the behaviors we would see would not be the same a year from now. Not one person knows how proximity chat will be used in ns2. That does not mean we should not try it. That means we need to try it.

B. There are already too many key binds in ns2. There is no good key bind if you can’t use an already bound key. People use V for quick switch, and you can’t take it.

By using the V key, the amount of key binds would not increase. All the good key binds, at least ones useful for proximity chat, are in use. If we can’t take V, then proximity chat needs to be left unbound. That the default amount bound keys in ns2. Players would have self-determination over if they want a key bind for proximity chat. If they want the key bind, they can choose what works best for them.

C. In your proposal you said: “Global chat should be given priority over proximity chat. Proximity chat should substantially decrease in volume. I don't know if simply decreasing volume would be enough, so muting and cutting off the speaker might be a better solution.” Wouldn’t this make proximity chat entirely irrelevant?

It would not be irrelevant. If there was chatter on global chat, you would not be able to use that either. Functionally this would play out the exact same as it does in ns2 with the voice chat we already have.
It would not be irrelevant. It just emphasizes knowing whether to speak in proximity chat, or speak globally. Knowing whether to speak in proximity chat or speak globally would be within the bounds of ns2’s skill curve. It is not even that hard. I would expect low level pubs to be chaotic, which is not different from now. I would expect higher level players to be more selective in what they say. Obviously there is a scale to this, but it is the same scale for the voice chat we already have.
It would not be irrelevant because it is a social tool. It can be tactical, but tactics are a social phenomenon. I could equally be recent gossip, another social phenomenon. . I think players have the capacity to emergently learn when and when not to use proximity chat. They can’t learn it until they play with it for a while. If one person figures it out, and does it well, other players would emulate creating a ripple pool effect.

D. Large servers already have too much communication clutter, and this could add more voice clutter, making option 2 irrelevant.

Proximity chat would be a new tool with a lot of social implications. Because it has so many social elements it is really hard to predict. I understand this argument, and it is a tough one. Anything I say would be an attempt to predict social behaviors, a nearly impossible feat. I think players have the capacity to learn. I think if we provided large servers with this new tool, they will learn when it will be most benefit. If they can learn that, I think communication clutter will be improved.

E. It could make Ns2 more difficult. A player could misuse proximity chat accidentally speak into the wrong chat creating confusion.

A marine commander could try to look at his map with C, accidentally press V and then accidentally recycle his observatory. A player lerking could accidentally press S instead of A, losing his lerk. It does not happen often, and when it does, people move on quickly because they have a game to play.

F. A player might say information relevant to the team on proximity chat.

That same player might not say anything at all. That same player might have typed it instead, but not everyone reads the text chat. Knowing which communication channel

G. One player could speak with proximity chat with the other player responding over global chat, or vice versa, creating confusion for the rest of the team because they only hear half of the conversation.

Similar situations already exist in ns2. Not everyone reads text chat, but some people do and then respond to it with the voice chat we already have. The difference being that at least you can read text chat, but you cannot hear the far away player’s proximity chat. This is a social issue. Both should know that one of them is not responding in the proper voice channel. Both have a mic, and they both should know better. In my experience, situations like the example I just gave do not last long. Everyone will move on quickly because they have a game to play. Again, this is a social issue. People are not always logical. I am no saint. Lots of players do many stupid things when talking, including me. I often do not speak clearly, I may say irrelevant information, I might stutter, or not finish a thought. People move on.

H. There would be opportunity for trolling specific players. It might not even be trolls that are problematic. It could just be talkative and or annoying people. Either way it would be distracting. These social issues could create additional stress on server admins.

I could tell you to use your big/girl boy voice and ask them to stop as if you are in a childhood playground. It did not work then, and I doubt it will work on the internet. I did propose two tools available that could solve this problem. You could mute player’s proximity chat from the scoreboard. Maybe you just do not want to hear proximity chat at all? Well then you can mute all proximity chat from the sound options. You can already do this with the voice chat that is already in ns2. I do not foresee problems with people muting, because people can and already do this with the voice chat we have now.
Ns2 has been out long enough that there are not too many server operator's left. The ones that are left know how to admin their servers. Even if they did not, they should be able to make a decision. I would expect problem players to be repeat offenders, and could easily be moderated as such. There are servers out there that have rules against muting other players. This already creates additional stress for those server admins. If they can already handle such a strong rule, then I think they should be able to handle proximity chat. If a server operator is so concerned, they do not have to enable proximity chat. This is a social issue, and one that is easily solved. Server operators would have plenty of options available to them.

I. Competitive ns2 would not use it anyways.

Competitive ns2 will does what competitive ns2 does. They have their own servers. They have their own mod. As I proposed, it would be entirely optional just like it is for the rest of ns2. They can use it only if they want.

If anyone was thinking about having the other team also hear your proximity chat, I don’t think that is a good idea. It opens up the possibility for easy trash talk. People already think ns2 has a toxic community, and we do not need to add to this perception. If someone made a mod and did this on their own server, that is their decision. It does not need to be official. That is my opinion though. Feel free to discuss it though.

I know this has been a really long post. I needed to explain how I imagine option 2 really well. I expect people to have lots of concerns about proximity chats use and implementation. I needed to answer those before they were bright up. This way I can skip a few pages of posts and get more direct feedback on the idea. I really hope to see a discussion. What would you want to see done with proximity chat? How would you implement it in game? What good things will proximity chat do? How might proximity chat hurt ns2? Lend me your thoughts.

Obraxis · September 2015

We've tested it out internally, and it did not work. You try things, they dont work, you move on. We've already discussed this internally after much debate.

Calego · September 2015

I definitely misread. Did not realize that #2 was all of #1 plus the dedicated bind. As long as I don't have to use two binds I'm good with whatever. But I don't much want to have to decide whether I want to local talk or global talk when I need to shout something at my teammate.

@Obraxis Is that referring to the whole idea of proximity speech, or just what Nordic is describing?

xDragon · September 2015

I don't see the real utility in a feature like this. It sounds like it would do a lot to complicate certain things, and seems overall pretty unnecessary. I cant think of any time I the voicecomms should be sooo busy in a 24 player game that you couldnt call out someone by name nearby

Nordic · September 2015

xDragon wrote: »

I don't see the real utility in a feature like this. It sounds like it would do a lot to complicate certain things, and seems overall pretty unnecessary. I cant think of any time I the voicecomms should be sooo busy in a 24 player game that you couldnt call out someone by name nearby

You can't think of one, but that does not mean there will be. Provide a new tool for communication and players will do new things.
Out of many possible concerns, that was the first I answered in the OP. I will copy it here for redundancy.

A. It simply is not necessary in ns2. It will be an unused feature.

Proximity chat can be used to improve teamwork. Instead of using global chat, to ask, "Nordic please weld me?” say it over proximity chat. The rest of the team did not need to hear that request. You could say, "Watch that vent Nordic" over proximity chat. The rest of the team did not need to hear that. "BEHIND YOU NORDIC" is another example of something the rest of the team does not need to hear in global chat. When speaking to another player, I try to use their name. I am not perfect; I do not always use their name. I do not expect every player to use names. I am sure most everyone has heard "BEHIND YOU" over global chat. Some players will check behind them, but most would ignore it because it is probably irrelevant to them. You might say global chat in Option 1 solves this, because there would be an audio cue signaling that the information is relevant. This is true, but does the whole team need to hear you yell "BEHIND YOU" in global chat?
Proximity chat can be used to improve tactics. There are an infinite amount of tactical scenarios where you could use proximity chat. You might tell me, “Let’s kill that fade. You hide in that corner, and I will hide over here." You might say, "Nordic, let’s focus down the crag first." The rest of the team did not need to hear either of those comments. Some people may find that information useful to know, and want that said over global chat. The point is that players might not have said it at all if they did not have proximity chat. Give players a new tool and they will do new things.
Proximity chat has the potential to create a better gaming experience. Large servers are popular. By large I mean 12v12. When someone first experiences ns2 it is most likely going to be on a large server. Then there are giant servers, like wooza 's, which have 21v21 ns2. The larger the server, the more it has to gain from proximity chat. The benefits of proximity chat that I described in my previous three points would have a greater effect on large servers. Since large servers are popular, the net effect of proximity chat could be a better gaming experience.
Proximity chat can be used to socialize more. Have you ever seen players talk about topics unrelated to ns2 in global chat? I have. They usually are asked to stop. The rest of the team does not need to hear that. Most players use teamspeak or mumble instead of talking in game. Not everyone can do this, especially if it is two random strangers who just met in ns2. With proximity chat they could keep talking to each other without bothering the whole team. They might still bother a few other players nearby, but then someone will ask them to stop just like they would now. The point is that they at least have the option and the possibility to socialize. This could create an even stronger sense of community in ns2.
We do not know how proximity chat will be used. I just gave at least 3 simplistic examples of how I think proximity would be used. I could be entirely wrong, and so could those who think proximity chat would not work in ns2. In academic studies, social theories are considered exciting if they predict 30% of behavior. That leaves 70% unexplained. We have no clue what will happen if we introduce a new tool. Giving people a new form of communication, and they will communicate differently. If proximity chat was added into ns2 today, the behaviors we would see would not be the same a year from now. Not one person knows how proximity chat will be used in ns2. That does not mean we should not try it. That means we need to try it.

xDragon · September 2015

I don't see why you posted that, I read your post where you already stated it. I simply provided my feelings on the feature.

There are tons of features that can add value to a game like NS2, which ones should be focused on and add the most for the amount of programming work involved is probably not an easy decision.

From the options provided it already seems like the feature is added, so that makes this mostly moot.

Nordic · September 2015

Since it is such a long post, I expect many forum goers to gloss over the details. Since you brought up the first concern I thought you may not have read it, and that others may feel the same way as you while also not having read it. Your post gave me the opportunity to answer the biggest concern I know of for this feature again so that those others may read my response.

You disagree and that is fine. I just was hoping for more of a friendly debate than just restating a concern I already addressed. Thank you for reading it, and thank you for providing your feelings. That is more than I will get from most.

"From the options provided" Those are options I provided. Those are simply ideas.

SantaClaws · September 2015

Nordic wrote: »

A. It simply is not necessary in ns2. It will be an unused feature.

Proximity chat can be used to improve teamwork. Instead of using global chat, to ask, "Nordic please weld me?” say it over proximity chat.

You can bind the "Request weld" radio command. I bound it to X myself.

Nordic wrote: »

Proximity chat can be used to improve tactics. There are an infinite amount of tactical scenarios where you could use proximity chat. You might tell me, “Let’s kill that fade. You hide in that corner, and I will hide over here." You might say, "Nordic, let’s focus down the crag first." The rest of the team did not need to hear either of those comments. Some people may find that information useful to know, and want that said over global chat. The point is that players might not have said it at all if they did not have proximity chat. Give players a new tool and they will do new things.

All of this can be achieved with global voice comm. Yes, there will be information that the rest of the team doesn't need - but I don't buy the conclusion that it "improves tactics".

Nordic wrote: »

Proximity chat has the potential to create a better gaming experience.

Probably, but as dragon explained, so will a lot of things.

Nordic wrote: »

Proximity chat can be used to socialize more. Have you ever seen players talk about topics unrelated to ns2 in global chat? I have.

I just mute them. Let them socialize all they want.

Nordic wrote: »

We do not know how proximity chat will be used. I just gave at least 3 simplistic examples of how I think proximity would be used. I could be entirely wrong, and so could those who think proximity chat would not work in ns2. In academic studies, social theories are considered exciting if they predict 30% of behavior. That leaves 70% unexplained. We have no clue what will happen if we introduce a new tool. Giving people a new form of communication, and they will communicate differently. If proximity chat was added into ns2 today, the behaviors we would see would not be the same a year from now. Not one person knows how proximity chat will be used in ns2. That does not mean we should not try it. That means we need to try it.

Social studies are rubish though. But this argument would apply to ANY change, so it's a zero-sum game. It's not an argument in favor of prioritizing this particular suggestion over any other. It would only make sense, if we have time and resources to spare.

1dominator1 · September 2015

This is gonna be very cool. I vote for separate keybinds for local and global voice chat. Wait or is this idea scrapped due to being unimplementable? That second post is confusing.

Nordic · September 2015

1dominator1 wrote: »

This is gonna be very cool. I vote for separate keybinds for local and global voice chat. Wait or is this idea scrapped due to being unimplementable? That second post is confusing.

Option 1 and 2 are my ideas and are not related to the CDT. I can not speak for the second post.

AlienJu · October 2015

OOooo! Just found this.

Too many keybindings!
How about global and local chat are bound by the same key, and will broadcast to the whole team? However while local chat will function as it is, all voice coming from out of ear shot have low and high pass filters applied to them creating a radio talk effect, with some added distortion and crackle to emphasise it is radio chatter. I can understand that part of the point is to separate local tactics from the global ones, but providing you are not playing on a 42 man server with loads of talking i don't think it will be a huge problem, provided that local chat will be slightly louder than radio chatter with the exception of chatter from the com.

I already had to rebind the x key to v cos whenever i tried to drop cat packs i would always bring up the x menu and it completely got in the way. <- how have other coms dealt with this?

Nordic · October 2015

AlienJu wrote: »

OOooo! Just found this.

Too many keybindings!
How about global and local chat are bound by the same key, and will broadcast to the whole team? However while local chat will function as it is, all voice coming from out of ear shot have low and high pass filters applied to them creating a radio talk effect, with some added distortion and crackle to emphasise it is radio chatter. I can understand that part of the point is to separate local tactics from the global ones, but providing you are not playing on a 42 man server with loads of talking i don't think it will be a huge problem, provided that local chat will be slightly louder than radio chatter with the exception of chatter from the com.

I already had to rebind the x key to v cos whenever i tried to drop cat packs i would always bring up the x menu and it completely got in the way. <- how have other coms dealt with this?

I sort of abandoned this thread, because I was not going to get anywhere. But to respond, what you described is basically what I described in option 1.

In-world local only voice chat?

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