@Daphisto please no. I don't want another tablet-like artificial stat addiction game. But yeah - make it free - just download and play. Ask for money if you need money (maybe I am naive?). Offer new maps and engine changes sponsorships, (fair) cosmetical changes, plushies, useless symbolic stuff for donations... maybe make it Steam-optional to appeal to customers of gog.com and such.
I wasn't talking about tablet-like artificial stat addiction gaming experiences. At all.
I was referring to meta-game experiences that exist in popular games such as CS:GO, Payday 2, Team Fortress 2, DOTA2, Warframe, Battlefield, etc. Experiences that create large communities that feel like they are moving towards something.
Coincidentaly I don't play any of those, except Battlefield 2 (you get better gun when you play long enough). If I get those victory screens with credits and ching-ching-ching sound in NS2, I am gonna throw up. Maybe you can't have both player groups and must pick one, when you make a game. Besides if you start playing by the rules the AA titles you mention make, you must be better than them at it. I don't think UWE has resources for that.
@PaLaGi
You're right, performance was abysmal. It hurt NS2, most definitely. No one would argue that.
(The casual focused game mechanics at launch did not, however.)
I still attest a direct port of ns1 to source wouldn't have gone anywhere. It would first have been met with hostility for being a familiar scenario of a "free mod that is now charging money for a graphics update". Then the unfamiliar masses would have tried it and been even more lost, stomped, and frustrated than they were in NS2... And that's saying something.
So yeah, the outcome has not been ideal and it has been rocky to get to the point where we are now, but NS2 was definitely not a failure by any means.
This is especially true if you consider how riding off the coat tails of popularity doesn't really help, contrary to what you stated. Just look at the staple of FPS, relaunched on steam, for free - Quake Live - it now has about the same amount of players as NS2 despite only being 5 months old! It did no better the years prior without steam, too. And what's more is that this is no odd exception, there's plenty of examples out there of niche shooters that have a dead community despite doing everything right, like Nexuiz, Warsow, Shootmania, or brand new Toxikk - all of these combined still don't match NS2's current playercount. (which is low right now)
It's safe to say that today's gamer is just different.
While the long term sustainability of a game requires that hardcore customer base, the real money is undeniably in the hands of facebook Farmville types.
So while I definitely agree in the importance and difference of performance between NS2 and NS1, there's also far more to consider for me to just say "NS1 is superior" across the board.
@IronHorse you tell 'em. I think NS2 will trod on just fine for a little while longer (years I hope). But you know, if it doesn't that is how it is. Gamers today are different, there are so many choices for games now. The market is very fragmented, so NS2 has done well to retain this number of players as is. This game is never going to be a CS:GO beater (unless UWE has Valve's money to promote it). Lets just call it for what it is (IH and other has mentioned this numerous times), NS2 is a niche shooter that is so good when it works. It IS the most team work oriented FPS out there, and for that reason when you get a good game on, it is addictive (the unbalanced team games are crap ofcourse).
I wasn't talking about tablet-like artificial stat addiction gaming experiences. At all.
I was referring to meta-game experiences that exist in popular games such as CS:GO, Payday 2, Team Fortress 2, DOTA2, Warframe, Battlefield, etc. Experiences that create large communities that feel like they are moving towards something.
Same thing. Bunch of manipulative skinner box and reward schedule crap. What you're really suggesting is to not make a game for people who like to actually play them, but to make game for people who like to invest their time to grow meaningless numbers. The best way to ruin a game is to offer extrinsic rewards that conflict with the internal logic and goals of the game. You want me to _not_ have fun shooting people in the face with a shotgun and ruin everyone elses game too? Make me chase some ingame reward or power up that depends on shooting people in the face with a shotgun xx number of times, even if this is counter productive and will make my team lose if I try. Make it a chore I have to complete to arbitrarily gain more power in the game by just wasting time.
There is nothing more corrosive to a teamplay heavy game than free-to-play and strongly rewarding counter-productive behaviour. TF2 is exhibit A and I don't need an exhibit B. A third of the team is invariably trying to make a conga line or trying to convince the enemy team to let them dance into their base, many of the rest are busy trading, chasing some inane achievement, trying to increase the stat counter on a weapon, talking smack or mic spamming. TF2 is a cess pit.
@PaLaGi
You're right, performance was abysmal. It hurt NS2, most definitely. No one would argue that.
(The casual focused game mechanics at launch did not, however.)
NS2 was actually way more complex (and had much less intuitive mechanics) at launch than it does today. NS2 is still "feature-overloaded" because UWE didn't really know how to balance without it (i.e. problem: marines turtling on one base and aliens not able to end the game --> here's a contaminate feature). A new feature should be the last resort to solving a problem like that. Address what's causing the symptom, not the symptom itself. Anyways...
I still attest a direct port of ns1 to source wouldn't have gone anywhere. It would first have been met with hostility for being a familiar scenario of a "free mod that is now charging money for a graphics update". Then the unfamiliar masses would have tried it and been even more lost, stomped, and frustrated than they were in NS2... And that's saying something.
So yeah, the outcome has not been ideal and it has been rocky to get to the point where we are now, but NS2 was definitely not a failure by any means.
Enough people were enjoying NS1 for free for such a long time that an update six years after launch costing $20-30 on a new engine would have got little to no hostility, and on the contrary, would have been welcomed by most. Just look at how much money UWE made off preorder sales for NS2 when it was first announced and there was little/no info on the game. That's proof enough. I couldn't give them my money fast enough, and all I was hoping for was an updated NS1 with better graphics and the same great gameplay.
Diablo 3 was another game I couldn't preorder fast enough. Sure it was a "success" at launch as they sold a ton of copies purely based off the franchise and how good Diablo 1 and 2 were. But the actual game at launch had tons of flaws and lost a ton of players who never came back. Hypothetically, I wouldn't preorder Diablo 4, just like I wouldn't preorder NS3. When you are trending downward, I consider that a failure. It may look like a success based on revenue alone, but it is at the expense of your customers' loyalty and the cannibalization of your franchise.
It's safe to say that today's gamer is just different.
While the long term sustainability of a game requires that hardcore customer base, the real money is undeniably in the hands of facebook Farmville types.
So while I definitely agree in the importance and difference of performance between NS2 and NS1, there's also far more to consider for me to just say "NS1 is superior" across the board.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited March 2015
As for all the NS1 love, today's modern gamer would be even less keen on it. The movement was exceptionally hard to master, listening to Silverwolf from Exigent talk to me about bunny hopping (even silent bhop) is just an impossible dream for a younger me. That doesn't sound conducive to a warm, friendly new-player welcome. The teamplay elements in NS2 already get chaotic in pubs. Imagine if new gorges were unable to understand that they are the ones needing to drop RTs? That leaves your good fades and lerks to do it, or be inevitably crushed by the mad res game, which also sets you back on your higher lifeforms. While I don't like the Alien Comm or cysts as much as the next guy, they do serve many purposes including acting as the counter for those sorts of problems, and helping those familiar with today's most popular RTS, Starcraft 2, feel more at home. Fall damage removed as an annoyance, removal of recoil streamlines combat. Oh, and your camera freaking out when you got hit, that was totes awesome, wasn't it? Nah.
I do like devour though, but I understand fully why it's not fun from a gameplay standpoint. Also, the old Onos 'paralyze' knocking jetpackers out of the air (which got removed, thank god), essentially web and stomp put together. Or acid rocket, making Fades even more powerful than necessary.
I think most of us played NS1 on the team, and we talk about those kinds of things, you know? What made them interesting, what makes them fun. We're not daft, we care and we understand, and we know what people want. People like variety. People like.. interesting mechanics and things the diversify the metagame. People like better performance, and things like matchmaking. People like flamethrowers. People like stuff in NS2+.
There is nothing more corrosive to a teamplay heavy game than free-to-play and strongly rewarding counter-productive behaviour. TF2 is exhibit A and I don't need an exhibit B. A third of the team is invariably trying to make a conga line or trying to convince the enemy team to let them dance into their base, many of the rest are busy trading, chasing some inane achievement, trying to increase the stat counter on a weapon, talking smack or mic spamming. TF2 is a cess pit.
I have to agree with this. NS2 can do with a price drop, though. $25 is really pushing it.
On the topic of 'remastered' NS2, we're constantly in the process of creating new content and (most of the time) great patches that build off of the engine and the game's inner workings. Our coders do stellar work. Our artists do stellar work. I do.. subpar work, and did I mention Comprox picks his nose quite stellar-ly? But remastering NS2 is a complicated, expensive, and full-time deal. Did I say expensive? The Reinforcement Program should exist as a monument to how much money is spent on the game. Lots. Quality art assets, man. $money&maker$ And we don't get paid, bro. So the remaster is sort of off the table, at least in the current time frame.
Current goal: We just want to make the game legit, continue making you guys happy, fixing problems, and hopefully bring some veterans back and some fresh and friendly faces into NS2.
As for all the NS1 love, today's modern gamer would be even less keen on it. The movement was exceptionally hard to master, listening to Silverwolf from Exigent talk to me about bunny hopping (even silent bhop) is just an impossible dream for a younger me. That doesn't sound conducive to a warm, friendly new-player welcome.
I think you are forgetting it was a mod for the HL1 engine, meaning all players already had experience with the movement of Half-Life and most played a lot of the other popular HL mods with similar movement. Bunnyhopping was not something invented in NS1 by any means, and learning to bhop was not that difficult to the average gamer, especially if you had any Quake experience before touching HL. It also felt much more responsive in movement compared to the slow, heavy skulk in NS2 many complain about.
Yet NS2 invented its own engine and has a less intuitive wall-jumping mechanic to the new player, still evidenced by all the ground skulks during sale weekends. Not only do you have to learn to dodge and chain your jumps while negotiating both terrain and enemy, but even vertical change could increase your speed as well. "That doesn't sound conducive to a warm, friendly new-player welcome."
The HL1 engine also had strafe-jumping (which was almost as good as bhopping in HL1) and was extremely easy to learn, and meant even new alien players could get around the maps quickly and be pretty effective in combat right off the bat.
But in the end, how can I argue with someone that heard the movement described second-hand and has already made up their mind that NS2 is better...
As for all the NS1 love, today's modern gamer would be even less keen on it. The movement was exceptionally hard to master, listening to Silverwolf from Exigent talk to me about bunny hopping (even silent bhop) is just an impossible dream for a younger me. That doesn't sound conducive to a warm, friendly new-player welcome.
I think you are forgetting it was a mod for the HL1 engine, meaning all players already had experience with the movement of Half-Life and most played a lot of the other popular HL mods with similar movement. Bunnyhopping was not something invented in NS1 by any means, and learning to bhop was not that difficult to the average gamer, especially if you had any Quake experience before touching HL. It also felt much more responsive in movement compared to the slow, heavy skulk in NS2 many complain about.
Yet NS2 invented its own engine and has a less intuitive wall-jumping mechanic to the new player, still evidenced by all the ground skulks during sale weekends. Not only do you have to learn to dodge and chain your jumps while negotiating both terrain and enemy, but even vertical change could increase your speed as well. "That doesn't sound conducive to a warm, friendly new-player welcome."
The HL1 engine also had strafe-jumping (which was almost as good as bhopping in HL1) and was extremely easy to learn, and meant even new alien players could get around the maps quickly and be pretty effective in combat right off the bat.
But in the end, how can I argue with someone that heard the movement described second-hand and has already made up their mind that NS2 is better...
I was soooooo disappointed when I booted NS2 the first time and couldn't increase speed by strafing against a wall lol
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I wasn't talking about skulk bunnyhopping. And for marines, binding jump to your mouse wheel is hardly considered easy to learn, though it is comparably the easiest way to learn bhopping in NS.
I think you are forgetting it was a mod for the HL1 engine, meaning all players already had experience with the movement of Half-Life and most played a lot of the other popular HL mods with similar movement.
I think you are forgetting that games like Quake have faded away, and that bunnyhopping isn't commonplace anymore. It's included in CounterStrike, but it's not even common there.
While I would also be one of those who wishes we came away with an engine of something better, this comment is not relevant to an exchange about movement in the slightest. NS2C even emulates the original's movement fairly well, but even that was changed to make it easier for newer players.
But in the end, how can I argue with someone that heard the movement described second-hand and has already made up their mind that NS2 is better...
In the end, how can I argue with someone with rose-tinted glasses so worn that they didn't read the part where I played the game? Most people don't even remember Onos paralyze, let alone remember why it was too good. Don't be like that, man. I played NS for well over a thousand hours over several years, but it wasn't regular, nor was it competitive. I didn't sign up on this forum in 2005 with a patient but fevered anticipation of a sequel. I'm good, bro. I made my mind up when I picked up NS last year again with pick-up games, with my old friends and those who were interested. I took off those same glasses, and actually saw all of bad things which I outlined in the post. It's fun, but it's not perfect by any means, and nor is NS2.
(Dreaming commences)...I think that all this time that have been poured into the game by betatesters, players, comp players, coders (UWE, CDT and modders) has led up to a point where everything really is coming together. Think of everything up today as a long betatest! I think that a repackaging of the ns2 brand could be possible and even a really good idea, if you made it valuable to all players.
I would like to see a new release with vanilla, compmod and combatstyle together in the same exe. Matchmaking and teamspeak shouldbe integrated as well (normal server browser,gather/pug style). ns2 needs tmatch even playersbecause as anyone knows,every server almost is a misch masch of happy rookies and seasoned veterans.They don't mix well together. The noobs get frustrated with being overrun and vets gets bored teaching and playing the green ones. This diversity is what holds off most players,not steep learning curves or whatever.
So in this package, put ( for example) 3 levels of play:
1. Combat, for training combat in it self and for joining when you can't find a good server or is waiting for the server to fill up. Just like the old mod in ns1.This is "casual"
2. Vanilla games for "the masses". Look at what servers are still alive today. Wooza's servers are doing fine, because they have fun small mods (some balancing stuff with extra ips at the start and so on. This is "normal play"
3. Compmod games (gather -NSL-style-matchmaking). Call it "hardcore"
I'm not sure but the constant evolvement in the game, changing it the whole time, makes it hard to fathom til it stabilized with biomass and stuff. This was/is also confusing. I say that everything is right under our noses, it is all about the package! This game (idea) could actually go on for a very long time if some obstacles where removed. The computers are also more suited today to the recommended specs, and the engine (with some quirks) is way ahead of what it was when released. I know i would play all three.
Forget about making money, this is an idea that lives anyway. I'd be happy if CDT could make enough money to pay the rent and put food on the table ( and a little extra ). Let's just hope for someone rich (e g B Gates...) to look this way and dump some money on CDT. it is all about perspective.
PS. Sorry if my english sux, it isn't my native language.
I think you are making quite the assumption regarding people purchasing just due to the first game, or wanting just that same game ported.
A big reason people (like me) pre ordered NS2 was also because of all the promises of NEW features such as dynamic lighting and dynamic infestation and alien commander etc etc
That was basically the pre order page and all the developer videos and blogs... promises of 1/3 same 1/3 improved 1/3 new. So people pre-ordered for 1/3 of NS1. The dynamic infestation hype was palpable.
The comeback of CSGO is exactly what I was talking about, I am glad you brought that up.
It is NOT a niche shooter by any stretch of the imagination!! It has a very low skill barrier (and a very high skill ceiling) so therefore not a niche, hardcore product - any casual can play it, and do, with other casuals.
It's return to popularity was because of a TF2 style economy and items introduced.. again, empty rewards for the casual : "As Grimes put it during her talk: 'After our economy launched, we had a pretty dramatic increase in peak player numbers, bringing us to regular highs that we'd only achieved previously by making the game temporarily free.'"
Lastly, I wish you knew (and that I could say, without completely derailing this thread) who really provided those solutions like contaminate and how they came about and why..
Oh and Quake bunny hopping is NOTHING like NS1 skulk bhop... nothing... come on? Even HL bhop was easier to pull off.
I wasn't talking about skulk bunnyhopping. And for marines, binding jump to your mouse wheel is hardly considered easy to learn, though it is comparably the easiest way to learn bhopping in NS.
What were you referring to if it wasn't alien bunnyhopping? Marine double jump? http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6614039TtweDbG9?h1=Dest's+Marine+Double+Jump+Tutorial
You specifically said bunnyhopping so I took it as you meant alien. It's hard to understand what you are talking about when you don't use the correct terminology. Double jump was hardly a required skill for new players to learn as marine in NS1, but learning to walljump effectively in NS2 is much more essential to enjoy the game and not get smashed every round.
I think you are forgetting that games like Quake have faded away, and that bunnyhopping isn't commonplace anymore. It's included in CounterStrike, but it's not even common there.
I was using it as an example for when NS1 came out that the movement wasn't that difficult to learn because there was a precedent for that type of movement already (HL1, Quake, etc). Because NS2 is a unique engine, there is no precedent for new players to draw experience from. I didn't think I would need to spell that point out for you...
In the end, how can I argue with someone with rose-tinted glasses so worn that they didn't read the part where I played the game? Most people don't even remember Onos paralyze, let alone remember why it was too good. Don't be like that, man. I played NS for well over a thousand hours over several years, but it wasn't regular, nor was it competitive. I didn't sign up on this forum in 2005 with a patient but fevered anticipation of a sequel. I'm good, bro. I made my mind up when I picked up NS last year again with pick-up games, with my old friends and those who were interested. I took off those same glasses, and actually saw all of bad things which I outlined in the post. It's fun, but it's not perfect by any means, and nor is NS2.
Re-read your first post. It is unclear if you played NS1, especially when you are using the wrong terminology. And, for the record, I don't have rose-tinted glasses as I firmly believe NS1 has its flaws, just like NS2. Some of those flaws were attempted to be fixed in NS2 and my opinion is that it ended up making the game take a step backwards.
@NotPaLaGi I think you are making quite the assumption regarding people purchasing just due to the first game, or wanting just that same game ported.
A big reason people (like me) pre ordered NS2 was also because of all the promises of NEW features such as dynamic lighting and dynamic infestation and alien commander etc etc
That was basically the pre order page and all the developer videos and blogs... promises of 1/3 same 1/3 improved 1/3 new. So people pre-ordered for 1/3 of NS1. The dynamic infestation hype was palpable.
There may be more people than I realize that bought NS2 without any idea what NS1 was. I would still argue at least the majority of preorders were not people that randomly stumbled upon the "dynamic infestation" hype videos and decided to purchase NS2 without at least playing NS1 at some point and hoping for those same elements to be present in NS2. Everyone alike was excited for new stuff (including myself). It was in the alpha that many long time players and NS1 vets argued venomously against things like the implemented cysting/power node mechanic once they got their first taste of it.
The comeback of CSGO is exactly what I was talking about, I am glad you brought that up.
It is NOT a niche shooter by any stretch of the imagination!! It has a very low skill barrier (and a very high skill ceiling) so therefore not a niche, hardcore product - any casual can play it, and do, with other casuals.
It's return to popularity was because of a TF2 style economy and items introduced.. again, empty rewards for the casual : "As Grimes put it during her talk: 'After our economy launched, we had a pretty dramatic increase in peak player numbers, bringing us to regular highs that we'd only achieved previously by making the game temporarily free.'"
The elements of what CS:GO did could be applied to any game, which is why I brought it up. It doesn't matter if it's a niche shooter or not. I think for people who returned to play CS:GO again, things like improved matchmaking and balancing/making every gun relevant in the game were just as important as the introduced TF2 style economy. But on a side note, I would actually be in favor of unlockable gun skins and a cosmetic upgrade/reward system to keep more players in NS2.
Achievement grinds - Kill 300 gorges, Kill 20 fade's with a welder... or long term "rewards" like battlefields packs or weapon upgrades seem to keep people coming back for more.
Perhaps a rank system linked to the other shoulder™ might be an incentive, bragging rights rule right?
You, obviously, wouldn't have to charge as much as you did for NS2 for a remastered version of NS1. I don't think anyone would complain to contribute a couple of bucks to an updated version of a game they truly enjoyed.
I, for one, felt the unique style of gameplay for each side is what made NS a fun and all-encompassing experience. If I wanted to just play a quick, laid-back game, I'd go aliens and do my thing. If it wanted a more immersive experience, I would go marines. Both sides now feel as they're exact mirrors of each other. For the 500th time, Alien commander ruined NS2 for me.
I dont understand why so many people seem to strongly oppose some kind of achievement system.
Provided it was well thought out and presented in such a way that it would not strongly influence a players game other than for the better, or only be achievable from grinding, whats the big issue?
And even IF it sucked utter ass, its not like you'd have to pay attention to it?
It is possible to create achievement systems that to not detract from, or heavily affect the gameplay.
Achievement systems are an interesting topic I think. I agree with @meatmachine, that there's a bit much opposition to this. I think there's both merit in the opposition, but I also think there is some productive use for achievements.
I think most of us can agree that silly achievements like "get 1,000 welder kills" would severely damage the gameplay, as far too many players would deviate from the core purpose of the game.
We want to encourage people to play the main objective. One could make the argument that a "Win 1,000 games with both races", would help encourage that. However, even that might have negative effects as well, such as an increased amount of stacking.
I wouldn't look at examples like the above and then prematurely conclude that it's simply always bad to have achievements. Instead I would try to think carefully.
What are some of the problems of player behavior in the game? Let us say; not enough people welder their team mates and this offsets the balance in favor of the aliens in public games. One attempt to solve that could be; give players points on the scoreboard for welding team mates. If that isn't enough, you could supplement that with achievements.
I look at achievements as a tool to socially engineer player behavior. So you shouldn't just make a bunch of achievements for the sake of achievements (i.e. "get 1,000 fade frags with a welder). But use achievements to promote what ever kind of behavior you believe would improve the gaming experience.
tl;dr - achievements should be implemented with great consideration, but can be productive wrt gaming experience.
@meatmachine Well in that case, I oppose it only moderately. But I oppose it, because it is hard/impossible to implement it tastefully, while keeping the ability to draw more money. By all means make an stats or achievements hidden in the menu, if that makes you happy. But I can't switch off attention (well I can, to filter most bs during the day, but I don't want to do that even more). I gave Nosgoth a try and it's exactly that annoying level. Game start : lottery. chk chk chk chk. You get free stuf. How nice! Then: you played one consecutive day, here get free stuff for a week. Well Okay If you insist. Then: Play 7 consecutive days to get reward! Yeah, totes, I am that addicted. Then: Buy this nonsense or that to win more for coin or money. Then: Tutorial learn to WSAD and use mouse. You are sooo good at this game! Get a free ability for a week. Then: Deathmatch. Oh you showed those losers. Here get some insignificant amount of coins. Ching ching ching sound. Blech!
@meatmachine Well in that case, I oppose it only moderately. But I oppose it, because it is hard/impossible to implement it tastefully, while keeping the ability to draw more money. By all means make an stats or achievements hidden in the menu, if that makes you happy. But I can't switch off attention (well I can, to filter most bs during the day, but I don't want to do that even more). I gave Nosgoth a try and it's exactly that annoying level. Game start : lottery. chk chk chk chk. You get free stuf. How nice! Then: you played one consecutive day, here get free stuff for a week. Well Okay If you insist. Then: Play 7 consecutive days to get reward! Yeah, totes, I am that addicted. Then: Buy this nonsense or that to win more for coin or money. Then: Tutorial learm to WSAD and use mouse. You are sooo good at this game! Get a free ability for a week. Then: Deathmatch. Oh you showed those losers. Here get some insignificant amount of coins. Ching ching ching sound. Blech!
Anything like that is better than the utter lack of casual competition available in this game.
I have used these in the past to learn little tips and tricks about games, and they CAN be very useful, provided they are not irrelevent to the game.
Examples:
marines:
weld 10,000 points of armor on friendly players (makes players weld teammates)
kill 100 aliens that have recently damaged a friendly player (makes players move/fight together)
Buy 1,000 pieces of equipment with personal resources (makes people spend their money, rather than horde it for exos)
Aliens:
Kill 100 marines without taking damage (encourages ambushes).
Give each lifeform achievements:
Skulk: have enemy pkayers parasited for a total of 10 min (makes players use parasite)
Gorge: negate x damage with babbler shields (makes players use babbler shields)
Lerk: deal 10,000 damage with spikes (makes players not use bite)
etc.
Commanders have their own achievement for supporting their team
marine:
resore x HP with medpacks
refill x ammo with ammo packs
reveal x aliens with scanner sweeps
aliens:
accelerate x alien evolutions with nutrient mist
get x assists with drifter abilities
Taking an idea from elove: elite skins.
once a player gets all the achievements for a certain class (marine, skulk, gorge)
The idea of elite skins in evolve makes people play classes and characters they don't prefer, making them become better players overall.
tl/dr
Achievements can be like tutorials, with a reward for learning to play better, if they are designed correctly.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited March 2015
I was agreeing with you for the record I don't have time to wait around in mumble for hours on end to find one single scrim, if even that. I wish I did have the time, I loved doing it every second I could. But now all I can do is go into pubs and pretty much be first every game and feel like I'm ruining the game for everyone (and I'm not even half as good as I was, which wasn't even all that good). I'd play more pugs if they existed more consistently but they don't even.
And I don't feel like your second sentence even makes sense
edit: "casual competition" was important in what I said earlier
@Benson Tablet-like games fixed that problem too! Charge coins or money to enter the round or wait 10 minutes. If you lose terribly wait 1 hour. That will teach them to support their team!
Now seriously: what about commander wasting Tres dumping medpacks and ammo? What about teammates welding stuff while attacked? What about skulks wasting time in abushes instead of being aggresive when needed? Stupid players can't be helped with tutorials and achievements.
edit: @mattji104 Sorry I thought you ment casual competition, not "casual competition". :P Well I guess you need to teach some players your magic, so you won't get to be first all the time on pubs.
Now seriously: what about commander wasting Tres dumping medpacks and ammo? What about teammates welding stuff while attacked? What about skulks wasting time in abushes instead of being aggresive when needed? Stupid players can't be helped with tutorials and achievements.
Answer to that, I think, is to make the achievement easily accessible in such a way, that it doesn't take too long to achieve it. So yes, in the short term it might promote that unfortunate type of behavior, but once the player has gained the achievement, the hope is that they will retain some of that behavior afterwards but only to the extend where it is still useful in terms of winning the games.
To clarify. Imagine a commander that never supports his team with assists because he's under the impression it's not worth it or what ever - He will then be encouraged, through an achievement, to re-examine the effectiveness of these assists, admittedly by exaggerating the action in a short time span. Once he's achieved it, he can then choose whether to go back to his old ways or incorporate some of the new skills he hopefully acquired during the period in to his standard skill set.
@Benson, some of those seem good. Some of them seem iffy. I could imagine some wall jumping achievements would be good. Maybe chain 10 jumps or more as a basic one. Sustain maximum speed as skulk for 3 jumps chained. I don't want to judge those possible achievements to harsh because they can be good.
One that really catches my eye is "Kill 100 marines without taking damage (encourages ambushes)."
There are two kinds of rookies, those who run in strait lines repeatedly dying and those who sit in a corner waiting to ambush for 5 minutes. This is a bit of an over simplification, but it does bring up the question; What kind of skulk behavior do we want to encourage?
@SantaClaws There was a attempt at that with the in game hints. I suppose they could be extended and made to give that "good boy" pat for < 20h players. Still I think you underestimate how capable and relentless stupid people are.
Either the "Buy a welder 1,000 times" or "Weld a teammate that needs armor for 10,000 seconds" sounds good to me.
Unlocks the "Golden welder" weapon skin or shoulder patch or badge or something maybe.
@NotPaLaGi Well, the later is safer I think. Imagine that rookies doing: buy welder, drop welder, buy welder ...
Though there are those capable of front-welding you when you try to shoot something with grenade launcher....
Comments
Unreal Engine, Unity, ... are sort of free, so maybe no one will. Still it can have benefits to have own engine. What does open sourcing solve?
@IronHorse you tell 'em. I think NS2 will trod on just fine for a little while longer (years I hope). But you know, if it doesn't that is how it is. Gamers today are different, there are so many choices for games now. The market is very fragmented, so NS2 has done well to retain this number of players as is. This game is never going to be a CS:GO beater (unless UWE has Valve's money to promote it). Lets just call it for what it is (IH and other has mentioned this numerous times), NS2 is a niche shooter that is so good when it works. It IS the most team work oriented FPS out there, and for that reason when you get a good game on, it is addictive (the unbalanced team games are crap ofcourse).
Same thing. Bunch of manipulative skinner box and reward schedule crap. What you're really suggesting is to not make a game for people who like to actually play them, but to make game for people who like to invest their time to grow meaningless numbers. The best way to ruin a game is to offer extrinsic rewards that conflict with the internal logic and goals of the game. You want me to _not_ have fun shooting people in the face with a shotgun and ruin everyone elses game too? Make me chase some ingame reward or power up that depends on shooting people in the face with a shotgun xx number of times, even if this is counter productive and will make my team lose if I try. Make it a chore I have to complete to arbitrarily gain more power in the game by just wasting time.
There is nothing more corrosive to a teamplay heavy game than free-to-play and strongly rewarding counter-productive behaviour. TF2 is exhibit A and I don't need an exhibit B. A third of the team is invariably trying to make a conga line or trying to convince the enemy team to let them dance into their base, many of the rest are busy trading, chasing some inane achievement, trying to increase the stat counter on a weapon, talking smack or mic spamming. TF2 is a cess pit.
NS2 was actually way more complex (and had much less intuitive mechanics) at launch than it does today. NS2 is still "feature-overloaded" because UWE didn't really know how to balance without it (i.e. problem: marines turtling on one base and aliens not able to end the game --> here's a contaminate feature). A new feature should be the last resort to solving a problem like that. Address what's causing the symptom, not the symptom itself. Anyways...
Enough people were enjoying NS1 for free for such a long time that an update six years after launch costing $20-30 on a new engine would have got little to no hostility, and on the contrary, would have been welcomed by most. Just look at how much money UWE made off preorder sales for NS2 when it was first announced and there was little/no info on the game. That's proof enough. I couldn't give them my money fast enough, and all I was hoping for was an updated NS1 with better graphics and the same great gameplay.
Diablo 3 was another game I couldn't preorder fast enough. Sure it was a "success" at launch as they sold a ton of copies purely based off the franchise and how good Diablo 1 and 2 were. But the actual game at launch had tons of flaws and lost a ton of players who never came back. Hypothetically, I wouldn't preorder Diablo 4, just like I wouldn't preorder NS3. When you are trending downward, I consider that a failure. It may look like a success based on revenue alone, but it is at the expense of your customers' loyalty and the cannibalization of your franchise.
The comeback in popularity in CS:GO would disagree that is it all just "facebook Farmville type" gamers left. If I listened to you, what they did would be simply impossible.
A forum user here linked this article a while back but it's worth reading again: http://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/05/how-counter-strike-global-offensive-turned-itself-around/
I do like devour though, but I understand fully why it's not fun from a gameplay standpoint. Also, the old Onos 'paralyze' knocking jetpackers out of the air (which got removed, thank god), essentially web and stomp put together. Or acid rocket, making Fades even more powerful than necessary.
I think most of us played NS1 on the team, and we talk about those kinds of things, you know? What made them interesting, what makes them fun. We're not daft, we care and we understand, and we know what people want. People like variety. People like.. interesting mechanics and things the diversify the metagame. People like better performance, and things like matchmaking. People like flamethrowers. People like stuff in NS2+.
I have to agree with this. NS2 can do with a price drop, though. $25 is really pushing it.
On the topic of 'remastered' NS2, we're constantly in the process of creating new content and (most of the time) great patches that build off of the engine and the game's inner workings. Our coders do stellar work. Our artists do stellar work. I do.. subpar work, and did I mention Comprox picks his nose quite stellar-ly? But remastering NS2 is a complicated, expensive, and full-time deal. Did I say expensive? The Reinforcement Program should exist as a monument to how much money is spent on the game. Lots. Quality art assets, man. $money&maker$ And we don't get paid, bro. So the remaster is sort of off the table, at least in the current time frame.
Current goal: We just want to make the game legit, continue making you guys happy, fixing problems, and hopefully bring some veterans back and some fresh and friendly faces into NS2.
I wish I knew. I think Hugh may have forgotten about that card. Too much time on the beach has fried his brain.
PS. If you want to live in a mansion, own an art assets company.
Will give more resources and wider vision.
I think you are forgetting it was a mod for the HL1 engine, meaning all players already had experience with the movement of Half-Life and most played a lot of the other popular HL mods with similar movement. Bunnyhopping was not something invented in NS1 by any means, and learning to bhop was not that difficult to the average gamer, especially if you had any Quake experience before touching HL. It also felt much more responsive in movement compared to the slow, heavy skulk in NS2 many complain about.
Yet NS2 invented its own engine and has a less intuitive wall-jumping mechanic to the new player, still evidenced by all the ground skulks during sale weekends. Not only do you have to learn to dodge and chain your jumps while negotiating both terrain and enemy, but even vertical change could increase your speed as well. "That doesn't sound conducive to a warm, friendly new-player welcome."
The HL1 engine also had strafe-jumping (which was almost as good as bhopping in HL1) and was extremely easy to learn, and meant even new alien players could get around the maps quickly and be pretty effective in combat right off the bat.
But in the end, how can I argue with someone that heard the movement described second-hand and has already made up their mind that NS2 is better...
I was soooooo disappointed when I booted NS2 the first time and couldn't increase speed by strafing against a wall lol
I think you are forgetting that games like Quake have faded away, and that bunnyhopping isn't commonplace anymore. It's included in CounterStrike, but it's not even common there.
While I would also be one of those who wishes we came away with an engine of something better, this comment is not relevant to an exchange about movement in the slightest. NS2C even emulates the original's movement fairly well, but even that was changed to make it easier for newer players.
In the end, how can I argue with someone with rose-tinted glasses so worn that they didn't read the part where I played the game? Most people don't even remember Onos paralyze, let alone remember why it was too good. Don't be like that, man. I played NS for well over a thousand hours over several years, but it wasn't regular, nor was it competitive. I didn't sign up on this forum in 2005 with a patient but fevered anticipation of a sequel. I'm good, bro. I made my mind up when I picked up NS last year again with pick-up games, with my old friends and those who were interested. I took off those same glasses, and actually saw all of bad things which I outlined in the post. It's fun, but it's not perfect by any means, and nor is NS2.
I would like to see a new release with vanilla, compmod and combatstyle together in the same exe. Matchmaking and teamspeak shouldbe integrated as well (normal server browser,gather/pug style). ns2 needs tmatch even playersbecause as anyone knows,every server almost is a misch masch of happy rookies and seasoned veterans.They don't mix well together. The noobs get frustrated with being overrun and vets gets bored teaching and playing the green ones. This diversity is what holds off most players,not steep learning curves or whatever.
So in this package, put ( for example) 3 levels of play:
1. Combat, for training combat in it self and for joining when you can't find a good server or is waiting for the server to fill up. Just like the old mod in ns1.This is "casual"
2. Vanilla games for "the masses". Look at what servers are still alive today. Wooza's servers are doing fine, because they have fun small mods (some balancing stuff with extra ips at the start and so on. This is "normal play"
3. Compmod games (gather -NSL-style-matchmaking). Call it "hardcore"
I'm not sure but the constant evolvement in the game, changing it the whole time, makes it hard to fathom til it stabilized with biomass and stuff. This was/is also confusing. I say that everything is right under our noses, it is all about the package! This game (idea) could actually go on for a very long time if some obstacles where removed. The computers are also more suited today to the recommended specs, and the engine (with some quirks) is way ahead of what it was when released. I know i would play all three.
Forget about making money, this is an idea that lives anyway. I'd be happy if CDT could make enough money to pay the rent and put food on the table ( and a little extra ). Let's just hope for someone rich (e g B Gates...) to look this way and dump some money on CDT. it is all about perspective.
PS. Sorry if my english sux, it isn't my native language.
I think you are making quite the assumption regarding people purchasing just due to the first game, or wanting just that same game ported.
A big reason people (like me) pre ordered NS2 was also because of all the promises of NEW features such as dynamic lighting and dynamic infestation and alien commander etc etc
That was basically the pre order page and all the developer videos and blogs... promises of 1/3 same 1/3 improved 1/3 new. So people pre-ordered for 1/3 of NS1. The dynamic infestation hype was palpable.
The comeback of CSGO is exactly what I was talking about, I am glad you brought that up.
Lastly, I wish you knew (and that I could say, without completely derailing this thread) who really provided those solutions like contaminate and how they came about and why..
Oh and Quake bunny hopping is NOTHING like NS1 skulk bhop... nothing... come on? Even HL bhop was easier to pull off.
What were you referring to if it wasn't alien bunnyhopping? Marine double jump? http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6614039TtweDbG9?h1=Dest's+Marine+Double+Jump+Tutorial
You specifically said bunnyhopping so I took it as you meant alien. It's hard to understand what you are talking about when you don't use the correct terminology. Double jump was hardly a required skill for new players to learn as marine in NS1, but learning to walljump effectively in NS2 is much more essential to enjoy the game and not get smashed every round.
I was using it as an example for when NS1 came out that the movement wasn't that difficult to learn because there was a precedent for that type of movement already (HL1, Quake, etc). Because NS2 is a unique engine, there is no precedent for new players to draw experience from. I didn't think I would need to spell that point out for you...
Re-read your first post. It is unclear if you played NS1, especially when you are using the wrong terminology. And, for the record, I don't have rose-tinted glasses as I firmly believe NS1 has its flaws, just like NS2. Some of those flaws were attempted to be fixed in NS2 and my opinion is that it ended up making the game take a step backwards.
There may be more people than I realize that bought NS2 without any idea what NS1 was. I would still argue at least the majority of preorders were not people that randomly stumbled upon the "dynamic infestation" hype videos and decided to purchase NS2 without at least playing NS1 at some point and hoping for those same elements to be present in NS2. Everyone alike was excited for new stuff (including myself). It was in the alpha that many long time players and NS1 vets argued venomously against things like the implemented cysting/power node mechanic once they got their first taste of it.
The elements of what CS:GO did could be applied to any game, which is why I brought it up. It doesn't matter if it's a niche shooter or not. I think for people who returned to play CS:GO again, things like improved matchmaking and balancing/making every gun relevant in the game were just as important as the introduced TF2 style economy. But on a side note, I would actually be in favor of unlockable gun skins and a cosmetic upgrade/reward system to keep more players in NS2.
Perhaps a rank system linked to the other shoulder™ might be an incentive, bragging rights rule right?
I, for one, felt the unique style of gameplay for each side is what made NS a fun and all-encompassing experience. If I wanted to just play a quick, laid-back game, I'd go aliens and do my thing. If it wanted a more immersive experience, I would go marines. Both sides now feel as they're exact mirrors of each other. For the 500th time, Alien commander ruined NS2 for me.
Provided it was well thought out and presented in such a way that it would not strongly influence a players game other than for the better, or only be achievable from grinding, whats the big issue?
And even IF it sucked utter ass, its not like you'd have to pay attention to it?
It is possible to create achievement systems that to not detract from, or heavily affect the gameplay.
I think most of us can agree that silly achievements like "get 1,000 welder kills" would severely damage the gameplay, as far too many players would deviate from the core purpose of the game.
We want to encourage people to play the main objective. One could make the argument that a "Win 1,000 games with both races", would help encourage that. However, even that might have negative effects as well, such as an increased amount of stacking.
I wouldn't look at examples like the above and then prematurely conclude that it's simply always bad to have achievements. Instead I would try to think carefully.
What are some of the problems of player behavior in the game? Let us say; not enough people welder their team mates and this offsets the balance in favor of the aliens in public games. One attempt to solve that could be; give players points on the scoreboard for welding team mates. If that isn't enough, you could supplement that with achievements.
I look at achievements as a tool to socially engineer player behavior. So you shouldn't just make a bunch of achievements for the sake of achievements (i.e. "get 1,000 fade frags with a welder). But use achievements to promote what ever kind of behavior you believe would improve the gaming experience.
tl;dr - achievements should be implemented with great consideration, but can be productive wrt gaming experience.
Anything like that is better than the utter lack of casual competition available in this game.
I have used these in the past to learn little tips and tricks about games, and they CAN be very useful, provided they are not irrelevent to the game.
Examples:
marines:
weld 10,000 points of armor on friendly players (makes players weld teammates)
kill 100 aliens that have recently damaged a friendly player (makes players move/fight together)
Buy 1,000 pieces of equipment with personal resources (makes people spend their money, rather than horde it for exos)
Aliens:
Kill 100 marines without taking damage (encourages ambushes).
Give each lifeform achievements:
Skulk: have enemy pkayers parasited for a total of 10 min (makes players use parasite)
Gorge: negate x damage with babbler shields (makes players use babbler shields)
Lerk: deal 10,000 damage with spikes (makes players not use bite)
etc.
Commanders have their own achievement for supporting their team
marine:
resore x HP with medpacks
refill x ammo with ammo packs
reveal x aliens with scanner sweeps
aliens:
accelerate x alien evolutions with nutrient mist
get x assists with drifter abilities
Taking an idea from elove: elite skins.
once a player gets all the achievements for a certain class (marine, skulk, gorge)
The idea of elite skins in evolve makes people play classes and characters they don't prefer, making them become better players overall.
tl/dr
Achievements can be like tutorials, with a reward for learning to play better, if they are designed correctly.
And I don't feel like your second sentence even makes sense
edit: "casual competition" was important in what I said earlier
Now seriously: what about commander wasting Tres dumping medpacks and ammo? What about teammates welding stuff while attacked? What about skulks wasting time in abushes instead of being aggresive when needed? Stupid players can't be helped with tutorials and achievements.
edit: @mattji104 Sorry I thought you ment casual competition, not "casual competition". :P Well I guess you need to teach some players your magic, so you won't get to be first all the time on pubs.
To clarify. Imagine a commander that never supports his team with assists because he's under the impression it's not worth it or what ever - He will then be encouraged, through an achievement, to re-examine the effectiveness of these assists, admittedly by exaggerating the action in a short time span. Once he's achieved it, he can then choose whether to go back to his old ways or incorporate some of the new skills he hopefully acquired during the period in to his standard skill set.
One that really catches my eye is "Kill 100 marines without taking damage (encourages ambushes)."
There are two kinds of rookies, those who run in strait lines repeatedly dying and those who sit in a corner waiting to ambush for 5 minutes. This is a bit of an over simplification, but it does bring up the question; What kind of skulk behavior do we want to encourage?
Unlocks the "Golden welder" weapon skin or shoulder patch or badge or something maybe.
Though there are those capable of front-welding you when you try to shoot something with grenade launcher....