IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@king_yo
The "I just want to have fun" argument is inherently and undeniably valid, because it's entirely subjective to any individual and is not based on your assessment of the ease in learning how to play (or the time needed to commit to it) or even the skill of the player, for that matter. One can simply just want to have causal fun. (pubs)
I have over 1k hours playing this game over 4 years, yet if I played with you, you would surely stomp me. This is not necessarily an issue of knowing the basics.*
Could I improve myself to a greater level? Probably.
Is it worth the time to me to do so, and do I have said time?
No.
Does this mean I can't play for fun, then?
No. Of course I can still play for fun...
*Your expectation of the average player is far, far too high, both in terms of commitment to improving as well as the ease in doing so.
I don't hold this against you.. It's pretty much a given for naturally talented people like yourself. ;-)
Regarding your previous post, it was that sentence I quoted you which basically said "why should I bother if they aren't".. Which most definitely implies a stand off approach and an unwillingness to lead by example. Yes I read that you already do these things, I just don't believe a mentality or message like that should be endorsed.. It only serves to worsen the imaginary hostility/divide between the groups.
Imo..
The only thing that should come from the comp side : "Just let us know when you feel it's stacked or imbalanced and we'll adjust. Feel free to ask for pointers"
The only thing that should come from the pub side : "How are you doing that? Teach me your ways!"
Except NS2 isn't Call of Duty. It is a complicated game and you can't just pick it up and expect to have fun just like that. It is just how the game is. You need a minimum of commitement.
I'm sorry but I can't just think most of the people playing this game are so naturally untalented that they cannot reach a decent level of play without trying hard and investing a lot of time. Some people will never even get half decent, even is they try, it is true. But it can't be that much. And even if I am more naturally talented than others, I know I am not a prodigy, and I don't think my expectations are set too high because of it.
My sentence was just another way of saying something like "it's your turn know", but more with a in your face/catchphrase fashion.
*Your expectation of the average player is far, far too high, both in terms of commitment to improving as well as the ease in doing so.
I don't hold this against you.. It's pretty much a given for naturally talented people like yourself. ;-)
I don't think he's expecting high accuracy or skulks constantly moving at top speed. It's more like expecting skulks to use their shift key at least 10 feet before approaching a marine, players to stay in groups, or people to check their maps. Those don't take any real natural talent and contribute a lot to stopping highly skilled players.
However, the real culprit of most stomps usually isn't the single div1 player but the crowd that follows them to whichever team they are joining. This creates imbalanced teams since a larger number of the less experienced players end up on the opposing team.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2014
I'd bet $20 that my hardest slow skulk crawl and already obsessive map peering wouldn't even begin to change the outcome of the first 30 encounters with king_yo trying his hardest..
There's just too many factors involved in separating low to mid skill versus the top tiers. Mostly it boils down to the actual engagement and the meta within, Imo. This is why combat is considered great training as well as warm up. This is where your COD player base comes in.. They can easily enjoy the aspects that don't require much learning and that are already familiar to them.
Knowledge of game mechanics also don't mean much if king is at the end of a long hallway with an LMG. This reality is especially exaggerated in uncoordinated pubs.
King's example was 5 skulks in order to take him down finally? Yeah that's an amazing amount of coordination you are expecting from a public match/player base... It's just not realistic, fellas. (and even if it was, it still demonstrates the aforementioned insane gap between the tiers)
Completely off-topic here... but while you're all talkin about certain comp players... does anybody else go nuts when @WasabiOne says anzestrial instead of @Anzestral in casts? Or am I the crazy one? I don't see a dang "i" in his name!!!
Knowledge of game mechanics also don't mean much if king is at the end of a long hallway with an LMG. This reality is especially exaggerated in uncoordinated pubs.
King's example was 5 skulks in order to take him down finally? Yeah that's an amazing amount of coordination you are expecting from a public match/player base... It's just not realistic, fellas. (and even if it was, it still demonstrates the aforementioned insane gap between the tiers)
It does mean that you shouldn't charge at him down a long hallway though. You would probably beat him if it was him charging down that long hallway against your LMG. Also, it does not happen that often, but if you watch the NSL streams, cases of 1 marine taking out 3 skulks isn't that rare. In most cases, 2 or 3 skulks would be enough, but his example of 5 isn't that outlandish in that context. Just a nitpick on your examples though. The skill difference is definitely there and expecting the average pub player to get much better is not realistic.
The solution cannot be for pub players to get better. It is not going to happen. The individual players will definitely become better over time, but it is unlikely that it will result in a significant shift. Maybe if the same 50 people frequent the same server, but if there are 200-300, I don't think there will be the same improvement.
I also don't see what the comp players can do. Sure, they can command or gorge, but it is definitely not fun for them to be so severely limited just so other players can have their fun. This isn't their job and they just want to have fun like the rest of us.
I think the easiest solution would be higher skilled servers for them. Unfortunately, they seem to have failed despite many attempts to start such servers. I'm interested to know how and why they failed. It will probably help if they have a go to server. Matchmaking is of course the ideal solution, but it probably harder to implement.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
So the game losing all the players cause:
- Hacking clanplayers stomping on pub and ruining the fun for everyone (Pubview)
- Brainless players running around with no clue what they are doing (clanplayer view)
Cause the low playercount you will find this situation on nearly every server now.
What should i say, both are right cause its frustrating for both sides how the other side perform.
The solutions are existent:
High and low level servers with restrictions.
But instead:
Rookies joining "white" servers and complaining about hacks/stomps or whatever
Vets joining green servers and complain about how low skilled the players are.
Last night after a PCW, a few of us joined the ACV no rookies server. There were a bunch of premiere div players, some div2/3 players and I think only 1 person who isn't currently in the NSL on that account (but I know has played competitively at div3/4).
The server was full solidly all the time I was there, everyone tried to make the teams reasonably balanced (and they were very well balanced in the end, I think). It was absolutely great.
Like the HBZ server, and to a lesser extent YOClan, ACV provides a really good hangout for highly skilled players to pub in peace. Hats off to you Fins for providing another place for us to get good games
I gorged and commanded pretty much exclusively yesterday.
A few things I learnt.
It is not ridiculous to expect coordination in public. I managed to initiate and micro several engagements and the dictate specific strategy. All it takes is a little communication and with the new player names on the map, it's so easy to talk to people. It appears that people only say that public coordination is hard because no one else is trying to make the effort to communicate. I don't hear players saying "name wait there for me in 3 seconds!", or "Lets crush repair in 3, 2, 1", or "They'll probably be pushing reactor core soon, so lets crush flight control PG, lifeforms back to base, skulks keep biting res". One of the BIGGEST things that could improve public play is simply typing "I'm going to go gorge" before the game starts so you don't end up with 4/10 gorges.
The ONLY thing I hear anyone else say is "Guys logistics is under attack" after it's blinking red, or "guys come on....", "ok we need a second hive now", "omg we can't hold our extractors". Like no sugar sherlock, we're all privy to this information, someone just make a decision like "Trade logistics to kill mezz/server/platform" or "ok we HAVE to deny logi, John bob and alex wait for me, I'm going lerk."
When I did go gorge or command marines, rounds were often quick anyway. One game on summit, we lost all engagements as marines. There were no "pro" players on the other team... The games I went gorge ended after about 15 minutes. I really didn't feel much of a difference between those games and normal ones.
Two people approached me yesterday for a little help.
One of them had the most mind bogglingly uncomfortable setup where his keyboard was in front of his chest on a tray under his desk and his mouse essentially on top of it.
The other thought he could position himself against skulks and was checking corners etc etc but wasn't really. Looks like people talk the talk but can't walk the walk.
I gorged and commanded pretty much exclusively yesterday.
A few things I learnt.
It is not ridiculous to expect coordination in public. I managed to initiate and micro several engagements and the dictate specific strategy. All it takes is a little communication and with the new player names on the map, it's so easy to talk to people. It appears that people only say that public coordination is hard because no one else is trying to make the effort to communicate. I don't hear players saying "name wait there for me in 3 seconds!", or "Lets crush repair in 3, 2, 1", or "They'll probably be pushing reactor core soon, so lets crush flight control PG, lifeforms back to base, skulks keep biting res". One of the BIGGEST things that could improve public play is simply typing "I'm going to go gorge" before the game starts so you don't end up with 4/10 gorges.
Unfortunately in my experience getting pubbers to listen or coordinate is a rare thing, and it's unrealistic wishful thinking to expect a team of pubbers to counter a god-like player with coordination and teamwork. Especially when that god-like player can harass one map location and tie up half of the opposing team, which makes it pretty damn hard to defend or take territory against the other 11 players pushing the opposite side of the map. So just like "L2P" or "get better" the "use teamwork" reply is not really a solution.
But just for the sake of discussion, here's a scenario for you that happened last night. I don't see anything else I could have done to make people listen, maybe you can tell me if there's anything I did "wrong"
So we're playing on Veil, a pretty even game that went back and forth for about 30 minutes or so... Then Marines grouped up for their final push, targeting Nano and taking it fairly quickly with Jetpacks and Shotguns. As they start to push Pipe our team is trying to coordinate a defense (which is failing horribly) when I spoke up with "Guys we need to hit their main base. They only have 1 chair, if we get 3-4 Gorges to rush we can win easily." To which our commander followed up by saying "ok I want everyone to meet up in Skylights vent and go Gorge for a base rush"
So naturally I go to Skylights and evolve to Gorge, then proceed to wait as Marines take Pipe then start pushing toward Cargo. "Guys we need more people at Skylights for a rush" Our comm "everyone get to Skylights now, if you are defending you aren't helping" - One other player showed up and went Gorge... "Cmon there's only 2 of us here, we need more people to Skylights, stop trying to defend Cargo against Jetpackers, we need to rush."
We waited about 3-4 more minutes, yet NOBODY else showed up. Both myself, the other gorge, and our commander were all calling for people to show up for a base rush, I even typed it out a couple times in case anyone was playing with voice turned off. Then we finally said "screw it" and tried to rush with just two Gorges. Of course that failed pretty bad (though we did take down one IP and the AA... 1 more Gorge would've made all the difference in the world) By the time our rush failed the Marines had Pipe and Cargo both built up and secured, leaving Aliens with only Sub and Overlook... It was THEN that people wanted to group up for a control rush... "It's too late now, they have chairs in Pipe and Cargo... the time for a rush was before we lost pipe, when we were calling for everyone to group up... 5 minutes ago!
Our team actually grouped up for a push after that, but by the time we hit control they were already killing our hive. We didn't even have time to kill one structure in their base before the hive blew up and it was game over.
I gorged and commanded pretty much exclusively yesterday.
A few things I learnt.
It is not ridiculous to expect coordination in public. I managed to initiate and micro several engagements and the dictate specific strategy. All it takes is a little communication and with the new player names on the map, it's so easy to talk to people. It appears that people only say that public coordination is hard because no one else is trying to make the effort to communicate. I don't hear players saying "name wait there for me in 3 seconds!", or "Lets crush repair in 3, 2, 1", or "They'll probably be pushing reactor core soon, so lets crush flight control PG, lifeforms back to base, skulks keep biting res". One of the BIGGEST things that could improve public play is simply typing "I'm going to go gorge" before the game starts so you don't end up with 4/10 gorges.
Unfortunately in my experience getting pubbers to listen or coordinate is a rare thing, and it's unrealistic wishful thinking to expect a team of pubbers to counter a god-like player with coordination and teamwork. Especially when that god-like player can harass one map location and tie up half of the opposing team, which makes it pretty damn hard to defend or take territory against the other 11 players pushing the opposite side of the map. So just like "L2P" or "get better" the "use teamwork" reply is not really a solution.
But just for the sake of discussion, here's a scenario for you that happened last night. I don't see anything else I could have done to make people listen, maybe you can tell me if there's anything I did "wrong"
So we're playing on Veil, a pretty even game that went back and forth for about 30 minutes or so... Then Marines grouped up for their final push, targeting Nano and taking it fairly quickly with Jetpacks and Shotguns. As they start to push Pipe our team is trying to coordinate a defense (which is failing horribly) when I spoke up with "Guys we need to hit their main base. They only have 1 chair, if we get 3-4 Gorges to rush we can win easily." To which our commander followed up by saying "ok I want everyone to meet up in Skylights vent and go Gorge for a base rush"
So naturally I go to Skylights and evolve to Gorge, then proceed to wait as Marines take Pipe then start pushing toward Cargo. "Guys we need more people at Skylights for a rush" Our comm "everyone get to Skylights now, if you are defending you aren't helping" - One other player showed up and went Gorge... "Cmon there's only 2 of us here, we need more people to Skylights, stop trying to defend Cargo against Jetpackers, we need to rush."
We waited about 3-4 more minutes, yet NOBODY else showed up. Both myself, the other gorge, and our commander were all calling for people to show up for a base rush, I even typed it out a couple times in case anyone was playing with voice turned off. Then we finally said "screw it" and tried to rush with just two Gorges. Of course that failed pretty bad (though we did take down one IP and the AA... 1 more Gorge would've made all the difference in the world) By the time our rush failed the Marines had Pipe and Cargo both built up and secured, leaving Aliens with only Sub and Overlook... It was THEN that people wanted to group up for a control rush... "It's too late now, they have chairs in Pipe and Cargo... the time for a rush was before we lost pipe, when we were calling for everyone to group up... 5 minutes ago!
Our team actually grouped up for a push after that, but by the time we hit control they were already killing our hive. We didn't even have time to kill one structure in their base before the hive blew up and it was game over.
This sounds like a game I was in. I feel like I was the second gorge... but I think this happens often. We actually had a tunnel and shade in skylights, though.
Yeah, I have seen that exact episode happen fairly often. If not there then the surprise tunnel in topo that people then bite the res node there before we even leave topo. Wish there was a way to speed up spawn times for aliens, noticed in one of my last games, I was commanding and telling people to group up, and they did, and then to push and kept them moving in a big group switch hitting both sides of our hive that was being assaulted. Tried to lead them to the marine base but the other commander was pinging like crazy. But pretty amazing what an entire team of aliens can do alone when grouped up.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
BE GLAD if you play public and people communicate back.
Recent experiences in pub with anyone not played for a few hundred hours:
* I will go gorge.
* why do we have 4 gorges?
* Folk, they will shoot ventilation. (or 'lie' and say they already are in vent to speed up the process)
* Uhm folk ventilation.
* Please go vent.
* Why is noone going to vent?
* ventilation is dying people!
- (if lucky) HEY someone is attacking vent (said 5 seconds before it will die regardless)
* Get of the floor.
* Do not run on the floor as skulk.
* Climb, use the walls, the ceiling.
* Floor is lava, get off.
- Omg they must hack, they always kill me.
- rare moment of coordination for a ambush.
* Go in now people.
* Go now!
* NOW people go in.
- one goes in.
- rest starts moving in, finally 3 sec after.
- inevitable beacon on a way to late rush in.
- all die.
The LARGEST frustration with this game is that it is a year and a half old and the average player base skill level is still extremely low. Typically I would point to the fact that we have people with 2+ years experience playing with 5 hour rookies, but that is not even the root of the issue.
I was on a 250+ hour server the other day as alien and there were 3 marines egg camping our starting subsector hive on veil while our 2 lerks were biting the RT in topo....
As @king_yo said, it does not take a "NS2 world champion" to figure out how to block lanes, watch your minimap, etc. even if your aim isn't that great. The fact that "veterans" still travel around in 8 man packs leaving other sides of the map extremely exposed and then are like "oh shit guys marine start is under attack". The fact that the majority of people still can't figure that you need to pressure alien RTs at the start instead of some "veteran" comm telling the team how he needs that crucial phase gate to the closest tech point ASAP (my biggest pet peeve) while meanwhile aliens are getting 5+ RTs and 3 techpoints.
On the majority of pubs right now, if one team shows any amount of coordination and awareness, they will stomp. Matchmaking had the potential to fix this and players would be able to learn at a steady pace. Is anyone really learning anymore? The bar needs to be raised up so NS2 can actually shine and be played the way it's supposed to be played, instead of the shitshow of incompetence it is on pubs right now that drives the good players away.
The LARGEST frustration with this game is that it is a year and a half old and the average player base skill level is still extremely low.
This. It is shocking how bad some people with hundreds of hours played are at this game. Tunnel vision, zero awareness, no communication skills and no forethought whatsoever. All the innate stuff mentioned like reflexes and hand-eye coordination don't even come into the equation if you can't get the basics right. If you "just want to have fun" and your definition of that is playing the game like a mindless corridor shooter, don't complain about being outsmarted by others who take the game more seriously than you do.
The LARGEST frustration with this game is that it is a year and a half old and the average player base skill level is still extremely low.
This. It is shocking how bad some people with hundreds of hours played are at this game. Tunnel vision, zero awareness, no communication skills and no forethought whatsoever. All the innate stuff mentioned like reflexes and hand-eye coordination don't even come into the equation if you can't get the basics right. If you "just want to have fun" and your definition of that is playing the game like a mindless corridor shooter, don't complain about being outsmarted by others who take the game more seriously than you do.
It's no different in other games, I'd play with people with endless hours behind them in CS and it's sequels and the same issues would crop up. it's just how it is, they weren't brainless either, some were engineers/programmers etc. some folks just don't have that mindset, which to be fair is common when you dedicate yourself to another discipline.
Playing smarter in ANY game will obviously make you a better player/top player.
Even in a game as basic as COD. You can apply all those things to that mindless shooter and always come out on top.
Yet players that don't think will always exist in ANY community. You may look at them as toxic, but they are a part of it and to alienate them isn't the best way to build a larger community.
Food for thought : if you aren't willing to change your attitude to accept them, why should they change theirs?
Need more players so there are more choices for server skill levels.
Hopefully, after Subnautica, we will have a very successful NS3. I believe if they were to make a NS3 in the future it would be successful since they learned many things form developing NS2.
Most of the weaker Marine players have 3 behaviours:
- Only ever move forward on the map, never backward
- Never wait in a room (even if asked)
- Always move towards the largest marine group
For the first two, I find the exact opposite to be true. It's actually what smart players do. Every time I command marines, I find myself screaming at people to always move forward and never ever stay in a room unless I tell them to, because there's spawners to deal with anything behind them and staying on the defence is a sure fire way to lose. The third behaviour you mentioned is easily avoided by directing people to lane block - provided they're listening. Seems to be working out for me most times.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2014
Did someone play soccer? Im sure we have some here.
Lets say a manager is coming to an regional league club and says:
"You want to play in the champions league? We can make this but you have to train very hard for this."
Do you think this could work? Well, no.
Why?
- 4 of the team have not the talent for this mission
- 4 of them dont want to spend so much time cause they have family and have to work hard.
- 2 of them are no real teamplayers
Only 1 left, but cant do this alone.
But these players loving soccer and thats why they are team. They train to improve things but only within there limits from above, wich is ok for them.
Why?
They have fun and have no problem to be a regional team.
This "be a premium div player is no magic, everyone can be one" attitude is just nonsense.
As SNB says, you would want at least 1 marine to stay in an area that he can either 1. Lane Block 2. Cut of retreat aliens or 3. be there to defend and recap if need be, also if there is no marines respawning you do need those marines that will hold an area while others move forward and kill alien RT's and Tech, there is no point in 6 marines rushing reactor core to kill 1 RT and a Gorge and leave the rest of the map completely open to alien pressure and even the marine base, And when the marine pressure dies that holding marine can either try and push up and move forward as there is now reapwners, or hold to group up and move forward again.
I think some overestimate the linearity of the NS2 learning process. I dare say that at least most of the players learn from their experiences and mistakes - but the conclusions they draw are not necessarily the right ones. You end up with players who have several hundred hours of experience, but unfortunately, their experience tells them to do things differently than they actually should be done, because they made the wrong conclusions.
Learning is not just like
"Player makes mistake A -> Player thinks about mistake -> Player draws conclusion B and gets better"
A great many players will instead try to avoid their mistake with strategy C, or attitude D or behavior Z.
I think some overestimate the linearity of the NS2 learning process. I dare say that at least most of the players learn from their experiences and mistakes - but the conclusions they draw are not necessarily the right ones. You end up with players who have several hundred hours of experience, but unfortunately, their experience tells them to do things differently than they actually should be done, because they made the wrong conclusions.
Learning is not just like
"Player makes mistake A -> Player thinks about mistake -> Player draws conclusion B and gets better"
A great many players will instead try to avoid their mistake with strategy C, or attitude D or behavior Z.
"I ran into the hive and shot at eggs and the hive all game and ended up with a score of 1-20"
"I know, I should stand outside the hive all game and shoot them when they try to get me"
*team loses due to no res, but player runs a score of 4-15*
"Thats not good but its way better, maybe I just need to get better at doing this"
I just wonder how much pro the normal pub player wants to become. Always perfect positioning? Only attack in a big group and use competitive tactics? Force everyone in the team to unity and play every game with the same dry notation and stress? I am just guessing here, but I don't think most pubbers will enjoy that. They would all play in a Clan otherwise. Or buy a PC that can actually run ns2.
Remember the beta days? I liked to play on the HBZ-Server. Everyone knew each other and the games were fun, because everyone knew how the game works and what the goal of each team should had been. But even in such an environment filled with only regulars, we still didn't play on competetive level. It didn't feel like an endless chain of Clanwars. It was fun. And if a widespread pro-transformation didn't happen in that environment...I bet it won't happen in any other server right now and in the future. Pub and Comp play is different and feels different. Maybe just realizing that and playing more casual could help.
Two days ago I met a well known player that went 90:11 as rine as soon as he bought a shotgun. We needed half the team to defend the new elevator hive against the rine team and half the aliens to defend shipping against Mr. I never expose myself to bad positioning and I kill everything that approaches me and if I get the chance, I just enter your start and spawn 1-shot kill you. Yes, it is a valid tactic, yes he helped his normal stats team to take elevator....but...really? Spawncamping until you have 90 kills for fun in a pub game? Gorges just wanna have fun man, don't use your jedi pro tactics in public matches...save it for the CWs.
I can get killed by alien lifeforms all day long, I don't mind it. You still have a chance to kill and there is this dance before they get you. But a never missing shotgun? Twenty res and you are invincible...awesome. There is no "might I win or not?" There is just "BAM dead, you had your try". And then they go rine again next round and buy another shotgun. They wouldn't have gone far into alien territory on their own in ns1. Or survived in a Hive where aliens spawn out of thin air without showing some eggs first.
Many say UWE did learn a lot by making ns2. I sure hope they don't forget the strong points of ns1 if they ever make another sequel...
Comments
The "I just want to have fun" argument is inherently and undeniably valid, because it's entirely subjective to any individual and is not based on your assessment of the ease in learning how to play (or the time needed to commit to it) or even the skill of the player, for that matter. One can simply just want to have causal fun. (pubs)
I have over 1k hours playing this game over 4 years, yet if I played with you, you would surely stomp me. This is not necessarily an issue of knowing the basics.*
Could I improve myself to a greater level? Probably.
Is it worth the time to me to do so, and do I have said time?
No.
Does this mean I can't play for fun, then?
No. Of course I can still play for fun...
*Your expectation of the average player is far, far too high, both in terms of commitment to improving as well as the ease in doing so.
I don't hold this against you.. It's pretty much a given for naturally talented people like yourself. ;-)
Regarding your previous post, it was that sentence I quoted you which basically said "why should I bother if they aren't".. Which most definitely implies a stand off approach and an unwillingness to lead by example. Yes I read that you already do these things, I just don't believe a mentality or message like that should be endorsed.. It only serves to worsen the imaginary hostility/divide between the groups.
Imo..
The only thing that should come from the comp side : "Just let us know when you feel it's stacked or imbalanced and we'll adjust. Feel free to ask for pointers"
The only thing that should come from the pub side : "How are you doing that? Teach me your ways!"
I'm sorry but I can't just think most of the people playing this game are so naturally untalented that they cannot reach a decent level of play without trying hard and investing a lot of time. Some people will never even get half decent, even is they try, it is true. But it can't be that much. And even if I am more naturally talented than others, I know I am not a prodigy, and I don't think my expectations are set too high because of it.
My sentence was just another way of saying something like "it's your turn know", but more with a in your face/catchphrase fashion.
I don't think he's expecting high accuracy or skulks constantly moving at top speed. It's more like expecting skulks to use their shift key at least 10 feet before approaching a marine, players to stay in groups, or people to check their maps. Those don't take any real natural talent and contribute a lot to stopping highly skilled players.
However, the real culprit of most stomps usually isn't the single div1 player but the crowd that follows them to whichever team they are joining. This creates imbalanced teams since a larger number of the less experienced players end up on the opposing team.
There's just too many factors involved in separating low to mid skill versus the top tiers. Mostly it boils down to the actual engagement and the meta within, Imo. This is why combat is considered great training as well as warm up. This is where your COD player base comes in.. They can easily enjoy the aspects that don't require much learning and that are already familiar to them.
Knowledge of game mechanics also don't mean much if king is at the end of a long hallway with an LMG. This reality is especially exaggerated in uncoordinated pubs.
King's example was 5 skulks in order to take him down finally? Yeah that's an amazing amount of coordination you are expecting from a public match/player base... It's just not realistic, fellas. (and even if it was, it still demonstrates the aforementioned insane gap between the tiers)
It does mean that you shouldn't charge at him down a long hallway though. You would probably beat him if it was him charging down that long hallway against your LMG. Also, it does not happen that often, but if you watch the NSL streams, cases of 1 marine taking out 3 skulks isn't that rare. In most cases, 2 or 3 skulks would be enough, but his example of 5 isn't that outlandish in that context. Just a nitpick on your examples though. The skill difference is definitely there and expecting the average pub player to get much better is not realistic.
The solution cannot be for pub players to get better. It is not going to happen. The individual players will definitely become better over time, but it is unlikely that it will result in a significant shift. Maybe if the same 50 people frequent the same server, but if there are 200-300, I don't think there will be the same improvement.
I also don't see what the comp players can do. Sure, they can command or gorge, but it is definitely not fun for them to be so severely limited just so other players can have their fun. This isn't their job and they just want to have fun like the rest of us.
I think the easiest solution would be higher skilled servers for them. Unfortunately, they seem to have failed despite many attempts to start such servers. I'm interested to know how and why they failed. It will probably help if they have a go to server. Matchmaking is of course the ideal solution, but it probably harder to implement.
- Hacking clanplayers stomping on pub and ruining the fun for everyone (Pubview)
- Brainless players running around with no clue what they are doing (clanplayer view)
Cause the low playercount you will find this situation on nearly every server now.
What should i say, both are right cause its frustrating for both sides how the other side perform.
The solutions are existent:
High and low level servers with restrictions.
But instead:
Rookies joining "white" servers and complaining about hacks/stomps or whatever
Vets joining green servers and complain about how low skilled the players are.
The server was full solidly all the time I was there, everyone tried to make the teams reasonably balanced (and they were very well balanced in the end, I think). It was absolutely great.
Like the HBZ server, and to a lesser extent YOClan, ACV provides a really good hangout for highly skilled players to pub in peace. Hats off to you Fins for providing another place for us to get good games
A few things I learnt.
It is not ridiculous to expect coordination in public. I managed to initiate and micro several engagements and the dictate specific strategy. All it takes is a little communication and with the new player names on the map, it's so easy to talk to people. It appears that people only say that public coordination is hard because no one else is trying to make the effort to communicate. I don't hear players saying "name wait there for me in 3 seconds!", or "Lets crush repair in 3, 2, 1", or "They'll probably be pushing reactor core soon, so lets crush flight control PG, lifeforms back to base, skulks keep biting res". One of the BIGGEST things that could improve public play is simply typing "I'm going to go gorge" before the game starts so you don't end up with 4/10 gorges.
The ONLY thing I hear anyone else say is "Guys logistics is under attack" after it's blinking red, or "guys come on....", "ok we need a second hive now", "omg we can't hold our extractors". Like no sugar sherlock, we're all privy to this information, someone just make a decision like "Trade logistics to kill mezz/server/platform" or "ok we HAVE to deny logi, John bob and alex wait for me, I'm going lerk."
When I did go gorge or command marines, rounds were often quick anyway. One game on summit, we lost all engagements as marines. There were no "pro" players on the other team... The games I went gorge ended after about 15 minutes. I really didn't feel much of a difference between those games and normal ones.
Two people approached me yesterday for a little help.
One of them had the most mind bogglingly uncomfortable setup where his keyboard was in front of his chest on a tray under his desk and his mouse essentially on top of it.
The other thought he could position himself against skulks and was checking corners etc etc but wasn't really. Looks like people talk the talk but can't walk the walk.
Unfortunately in my experience getting pubbers to listen or coordinate is a rare thing, and it's unrealistic wishful thinking to expect a team of pubbers to counter a god-like player with coordination and teamwork. Especially when that god-like player can harass one map location and tie up half of the opposing team, which makes it pretty damn hard to defend or take territory against the other 11 players pushing the opposite side of the map. So just like "L2P" or "get better" the "use teamwork" reply is not really a solution.
But just for the sake of discussion, here's a scenario for you that happened last night. I don't see anything else I could have done to make people listen, maybe you can tell me if there's anything I did "wrong"
So we're playing on Veil, a pretty even game that went back and forth for about 30 minutes or so... Then Marines grouped up for their final push, targeting Nano and taking it fairly quickly with Jetpacks and Shotguns. As they start to push Pipe our team is trying to coordinate a defense (which is failing horribly) when I spoke up with "Guys we need to hit their main base. They only have 1 chair, if we get 3-4 Gorges to rush we can win easily." To which our commander followed up by saying "ok I want everyone to meet up in Skylights vent and go Gorge for a base rush"
So naturally I go to Skylights and evolve to Gorge, then proceed to wait as Marines take Pipe then start pushing toward Cargo. "Guys we need more people at Skylights for a rush" Our comm "everyone get to Skylights now, if you are defending you aren't helping" - One other player showed up and went Gorge... "Cmon there's only 2 of us here, we need more people to Skylights, stop trying to defend Cargo against Jetpackers, we need to rush."
We waited about 3-4 more minutes, yet NOBODY else showed up. Both myself, the other gorge, and our commander were all calling for people to show up for a base rush, I even typed it out a couple times in case anyone was playing with voice turned off. Then we finally said "screw it" and tried to rush with just two Gorges. Of course that failed pretty bad (though we did take down one IP and the AA... 1 more Gorge would've made all the difference in the world) By the time our rush failed the Marines had Pipe and Cargo both built up and secured, leaving Aliens with only Sub and Overlook... It was THEN that people wanted to group up for a control rush... "It's too late now, they have chairs in Pipe and Cargo... the time for a rush was before we lost pipe, when we were calling for everyone to group up... 5 minutes ago!
Our team actually grouped up for a push after that, but by the time we hit control they were already killing our hive. We didn't even have time to kill one structure in their base before the hive blew up and it was game over.
This sounds like a game I was in. I feel like I was the second gorge... but I think this happens often. We actually had a tunnel and shade in skylights, though.
Recent experiences in pub with anyone not played for a few hundred hours:
* I will go gorge.
* why do we have 4 gorges?
* Folk, they will shoot ventilation. (or 'lie' and say they already are in vent to speed up the process)
* Uhm folk ventilation.
* Please go vent.
* Why is noone going to vent?
* ventilation is dying people!
- (if lucky) HEY someone is attacking vent (said 5 seconds before it will die regardless)
* Get of the floor.
* Do not run on the floor as skulk.
* Climb, use the walls, the ceiling.
* Floor is lava, get off.
- Omg they must hack, they always kill me.
- rare moment of coordination for a ambush.
* Go in now people.
* Go now!
* NOW people go in.
- one goes in.
- rest starts moving in, finally 3 sec after.
- inevitable beacon on a way to late rush in.
- all die.
Etc etc.
I was on a 250+ hour server the other day as alien and there were 3 marines egg camping our starting subsector hive on veil while our 2 lerks were biting the RT in topo....
As @king_yo said, it does not take a "NS2 world champion" to figure out how to block lanes, watch your minimap, etc. even if your aim isn't that great. The fact that "veterans" still travel around in 8 man packs leaving other sides of the map extremely exposed and then are like "oh shit guys marine start is under attack". The fact that the majority of people still can't figure that you need to pressure alien RTs at the start instead of some "veteran" comm telling the team how he needs that crucial phase gate to the closest tech point ASAP (my biggest pet peeve) while meanwhile aliens are getting 5+ RTs and 3 techpoints.
On the majority of pubs right now, if one team shows any amount of coordination and awareness, they will stomp. Matchmaking had the potential to fix this and players would be able to learn at a steady pace. Is anyone really learning anymore? The bar needs to be raised up so NS2 can actually shine and be played the way it's supposed to be played, instead of the shitshow of incompetence it is on pubs right now that drives the good players away.
- Only ever move forward on the map, never backward
- Never wait in a room (even if asked)
- Always move towards the largest marine group
It's no different in other games, I'd play with people with endless hours behind them in CS and it's sequels and the same issues would crop up. it's just how it is, they weren't brainless either, some were engineers/programmers etc. some folks just don't have that mindset, which to be fair is common when you dedicate yourself to another discipline.
Even in a game as basic as COD. You can apply all those things to that mindless shooter and always come out on top.
Yet players that don't think will always exist in ANY community. You may look at them as toxic, but they are a part of it and to alienate them isn't the best way to build a larger community.
Food for thought : if you aren't willing to change your attitude to accept them, why should they change theirs?
Need more players so there are more choices for server skill levels.
Hopefully, after Subnautica, we will have a very successful NS3. I believe if they were to make a NS3 in the future it would be successful since they learned many things form developing NS2.
Lets say a manager is coming to an regional league club and says:
"You want to play in the champions league? We can make this but you have to train very hard for this."
Do you think this could work? Well, no.
Why?
- 4 of the team have not the talent for this mission
- 4 of them dont want to spend so much time cause they have family and have to work hard.
- 2 of them are no real teamplayers
Only 1 left, but cant do this alone.
But these players loving soccer and thats why they are team. They train to improve things but only within there limits from above, wich is ok for them.
Why?
They have fun and have no problem to be a regional team.
This "be a premium div player is no magic, everyone can be one" attitude is just nonsense.
Learning is not just like
"Player makes mistake A -> Player thinks about mistake -> Player draws conclusion B and gets better"
A great many players will instead try to avoid their mistake with strategy C, or attitude D or behavior Z.
"I ran into the hive and shot at eggs and the hive all game and ended up with a score of 1-20"
"I know, I should stand outside the hive all game and shoot them when they try to get me"
*team loses due to no res, but player runs a score of 4-15*
"Thats not good but its way better, maybe I just need to get better at doing this"
Remember the beta days? I liked to play on the HBZ-Server. Everyone knew each other and the games were fun, because everyone knew how the game works and what the goal of each team should had been. But even in such an environment filled with only regulars, we still didn't play on competetive level. It didn't feel like an endless chain of Clanwars. It was fun. And if a widespread pro-transformation didn't happen in that environment...I bet it won't happen in any other server right now and in the future. Pub and Comp play is different and feels different. Maybe just realizing that and playing more casual could help.
Two days ago I met a well known player that went 90:11 as rine as soon as he bought a shotgun. We needed half the team to defend the new elevator hive against the rine team and half the aliens to defend shipping against Mr. I never expose myself to bad positioning and I kill everything that approaches me and if I get the chance, I just enter your start and spawn 1-shot kill you. Yes, it is a valid tactic, yes he helped his normal stats team to take elevator....but...really? Spawncamping until you have 90 kills for fun in a pub game? Gorges just wanna have fun man, don't use your jedi pro tactics in public matches...save it for the CWs.
I can get killed by alien lifeforms all day long, I don't mind it. You still have a chance to kill and there is this dance before they get you. But a never missing shotgun? Twenty res and you are invincible...awesome. There is no "might I win or not?" There is just "BAM dead, you had your try". And then they go rine again next round and buy another shotgun. They wouldn't have gone far into alien territory on their own in ns1. Or survived in a Hive where aliens spawn out of thin air without showing some eggs first.
Many say UWE did learn a lot by making ns2. I sure hope they don't forget the strong points of ns1 if they ever make another sequel...