Fade Upgrades Viability

2

Comments

  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    Wouldn't want to be too revolutionary, but what about making vortex teleport health from the hive....
  • VlaadVlaad Join Date: 2012-10-03 Member: 161403Members
    The very fact that fades are very useful in the late game without upgrades should tell you something.
    Vlaad wrote: »
    ...fact that current (vanilla) fade functions as developers intended.
    Fade does, as do all other lifeforms in good hands with the difference that upgrades expand their role and make them more interesting and exciting to play to offset for brutal late game w3a3 marines. The fades only role is to kill marines, it cant do much else and from early to late game fade's job is getting more difficult and less meaningful for final outcome.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    ...
    If the biomass level was kept, i could see stab being unrestricted by movement (aka not requiring SS to be mobile) and having vortex maintain momentum.. and possibly even a damage increase of stab. (one hit kill on A2 marines?)
    ...
    Damage increase sounds a bit overkill... Smooth execution is something that would really help it to be useful.
    Speaking of STAB mechanics, how about this:
    Stab is something like a more energy expensive blink (say 30%), so when pressing mouse button fade enters the blink but on exit (release) it performs a quick stab (somewhat slower than a regular swipe). High energy requirement would keep it from being spammed and for effective usage it would require adrenalin so player could follow through initial attack. Reason for this is that most pro fades see adrenalin as unneeded and instead opt for benefits of celerity and this would make them divert from classic fade play for sake of a new move.

    It would make it excellent entry move in line with smooth play that is obligatory for a fade. Not sure how much biomass would this kind of stab cost.
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    MoFo wrote: »
    I still think Vortex would be a much more useful and interesting ability if it teleported the Marine back with the Fade. The Fade would then have to finish off the Marine with whatever health they had left, giving Marines a slight chance to kill the Fade (and then potentially be behind enemy lines for a PG) Could make for some really intense action.

    Any exploiting (like using it to teleport Marines into the lava/off a cliff) could easily be fixed with a 2-3 second cooldown on Blink & Shadow step after placing the Vortex. (so it would be impossible to place it in an exploitable spot without falling to your death)

    assuming other aliens are able to damage the marine, what's stopping the commander from putting 4 whips in a circle and him having half his team go fade and start teleporting marines into it? for that idea to work you'd need to remove the ability for the fade to teleport back (so he can be killed from the other marines) and some other nerf, I don't know what. either way it's a bad idea imo.
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    edited January 2014
    MoFo wrote: »
    I still think Vortex would be a much more useful and interesting ability if it teleported the Marine back with the Fade. The Fade would then have to finish off the Marine with whatever health they had left, giving Marines a slight chance to kill the Fade (and then potentially be behind enemy lines for a PG) Could make for some really intense action.

    Any exploiting (like using it to teleport Marines into the lava/off a cliff) could easily be fixed with a 2-3 second cooldown on Blink & Shadow step after placing the Vortex. (so it would be impossible to place it in an exploitable spot without falling to your death)

    assuming other aliens are able to damage the marine, what's stopping the commander from putting 4 whips in a circle and him having half his team go fade and start teleporting marines into it?

    Hmm I don't know, why not add reflective damage for anyone who isn't the Fade for like 5 seconds. If a Fade teleported a Marine into a whip farm or to waiting players he would do nothing but damage the whips or get teammates killed. - Just a thought. :)

    The best solution would be to warp the Fade and Marine into a little "killbox" style realm (think acid trip type walls like in eclipse's secret room) and leave them to fight to the death. If Marine wins he gets ported back to where he was, if Fade wins he gets ported to wherever the Vortex was placed.

    I would imagine something like that is extremely hard to do though.

  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    ^ That'd be cool and has been suggested before. Wouldn't be any harder to do than gorge tunnels (arent they just props placed somewhere high, high above the map?).

    I can't see it being used much though because it's a late game utility move that basically stops a fade retreating unless he can kill the marine. What if he plans to vortex, takes two meatshots as he engages and then is trapped in a small room with one more SG? Or even if he has full health and is trapped in a small room with one SG... Chances are he will die pretty often to that scenario.

    I still think the old vortex was cool, it had its place in terms of vortexing exos while your team kills all the marines... Back when exos were something to be feared.
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    MoFo wrote: »
    The best solution would be to warp the Fade and Marine into a little "killbox" style realm (think acid trip type walls like in eclipse's secret room) and leave them to fight to the death. If Marine wins he gets ported back to where he was, if Fade wins he gets ported to wherever the Vortex was placed.

    omg Hero Wars (wc3)!!

  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    MoFo wrote: »
    The best solution would be to warp the Fade and Marine into a little "killbox" style realm (think acid trip type walls like in eclipse's secret room) and leave them to fight to the death. If Marine wins he gets ported back to where he was, if Fade wins he gets ported to wherever the Vortex was placed.

    Fade would win every time since the marine wouldnt be able to be medpacked.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    But the marine would be on acid.
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Members
    Seconded for metabolize. I miss swipe, blinking to the roof, metabolize, blink/fall on a marine and swipe
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I actually think vortex's most useful use is to drop it in a safe place when going to heal, then activate it when at full hp to quickly return to battle. It is a risk though, as if they find that glowing orb you will probably die.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    How about vortex dragging the targeted marine towards you? It'd make dealing with jetpackers that little bit easier.
  • MrFangsMrFangs Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    MoFo wrote: »
    The best solution would be to warp the Fade and Marine into a little "killbox" style realm (think acid trip type walls like in eclipse's secret room) and leave them to fight to the death. If Marine wins he gets ported back to where he was, if Fade wins he gets ported to wherever the Vortex was placed.
    That sounds suspiciously like this suggestion. :D

    (NB: Vortex+Stab were discussed a lot after build 250: here and here at least, maybe even more.)

    MoFo wrote: »
    I would imagine something like that is extremely hard to do though.
    Yeah, in that form, it would be a lot of work. Probably too much to see it happen.

    But maybe the same effect could be achieved in the way of @IronHorse's and @Benson's idea? Make Vortex an attack (either ranged or melee), and shield the Fade and its target from the rest of the world for a few seconds. But do *not* teleport the Fade anywhere on the end of it... that would be ridiculously OP, I think.
  • TheKarvaTheKarva Join Date: 2011-06-13 Member: 104251Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    How about vortex dragging the targeted marine towards you? It'd make dealing with jetpackers that little bit easier.
    this i like. drop a vortex, loose so much adre you can only blink away. in return marines get stuck in the vortex, being able to move but at like 20% of their normal speed for like 2 sec. a marine jumpdodging just when the vortex hits would land the jump at the same time the vortex ends. Imagine bullet time feeling.
    Jetpackers suddenly go slow-mo in the air and gives your skulks a chance to effectively leap on them. Range of the vortex would still be relatively small so you could only catch a few marines in it if they stand next to eachother? no penalty of firerate for the marine or exo so he's still a threat, just not moving as franticaly.
    catpacks would give the marine a better chance of survival with the speed boost but at a cost.

    or a temporary teleportation device? teams onos being chased? - fade puts a vortex, takes time and lots of adrenaline, but just int time for the onos to jump through, flying through an lsd trip for 15sec (penalty) and ends up at closest hive. vortex open only for a short period of time and anyone can jump through during that time. If the whole team jumps through you got no one on the field for 10sec and harvesters get vulnerable. dunno just throwing ideas. i miss devour and dat upgrade that took you away from battle. wasn't there even a feign death skill in ns1 at some point?
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    TheKarva wrote: »
    How about vortex dragging the targeted marine towards you? It'd make dealing with jetpackers that little bit easier.
    this i like. drop a vortex, loose so much adre you can only blink away. in return marines get stuck in the vortex, being able to move but at like 20% of their normal speed for like 2 sec. a marine jumpdodging just when the vortex hits would land the jump at the same time the vortex ends. Imagine bullet time feeling.
    Jetpackers suddenly go slow-mo in the air and gives your skulks a chance to effectively leap on them. Range of the vortex would still be relatively small so you could only catch a few marines in it if they stand next to eachother? no penalty of firerate for the marine or exo so he's still a threat, just not moving as franticaly.
    catpacks would give the marine a better chance of survival with the speed boost but at a cost.

    or a temporary teleportation device? teams onos being chased? - fade puts a vortex, takes time and lots of adrenaline, but just int time for the onos to jump through, flying through an lsd trip for 15sec (penalty) and ends up at closest hive. vortex open only for a short period of time and anyone can jump through during that time. If the whole team jumps through you got no one on the field for 10sec and harvesters get vulnerable. dunno just throwing ideas. i miss devour and dat upgrade that took you away from battle. wasn't there even a feign death skill in ns1 at some point?

    I was actually thinking of a ranged attack that could only target a single marine at a time. While you have Vortex activated, that marine gets slowly dragged towards you. (even if you're no longer looking at them). Think of it like using tow rope or reeling in a fish.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I propose some simple tweaks to Vortex and Stab, since there won't be any major Fade redesigns soon.

    Vortex: Changed to trigger the next time Blink (instead of an attack) is used.
    This improves Fades' control over the teleportation and simplifies the control scheme, as well as the potential for more damage, but disables normal Blink during combat. However, Fades will have Shadowstep by then.

    Stab: For a late game ability, the speed penalty and the slow attack wind-up are crippling its use. Either remove the slowing effect, or speed up the attack animation.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    edited January 2014
    Vortex & Stab suffer from the same problem of requiring too high a biomass level & research cost for its payoff. Reduce the biomass requirement of both and you will see more creative play for each of these.

    Vortex
    Instead of using it in combat, I find the most useful scenario placing vortex in a useful spot so that I can get back to action very quickly.

    1. Engage marine
    2. Place vortex in safe location
    3. Blink back to hive & heal
    4. Vortex back to original location

    Allowing you to constantly be in action, you're only down time consists of going back to hive. Effectively removing half the distance for healing & saving fade energy.

    For those that play 6v6, it also allows you to feign a 'alien pack' on 1 side of the map resulting in marines on the opposite side charging your RT's. You can then vortex back and catch marines unaware...

    I treat vortex like a constantly moving gorge tunnel...

    In fact, a way to make it OP would be having it so swipe doesn't initiate the teleport. You need to activate vortex again or something similar to teleport to vortex location. This means you could place vortex's in strategic places on the map, play like normal but teleport to you're moving 'gorge tunnel' at the appropriate time.

    This would be so OP, but could be balanced out with high biomass level 6-7

    Stab
    Never even had a chance to use it, biomass requirement is too high its never reached. My only suggestion would be leave it at a very high biomass level, but make it like NS1 focus fade.
  • BobRossTheBossBobRossTheBoss Join Date: 2012-12-31 Member: 176824Members
    edited January 2014
    Maybe vortex could do something silly like cut a marine's remaining clip in half by teleporting the bullets away

    ...or something
  • FreekerFreeker France Join Date: 2013-10-28 Member: 188858Members, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Vortex could be a snare (the fade webs ^^). Vortex slow down ennemy in a radius of x meter: Fade blinks in, vortex around a group of marine, then the skulk/onos come in and take down the slow-moving marine. It could also help to protect an escaping onos.

    For stab, if it's still on bio8, maybe a quicker attack animation and/or damage increased (something like 200 dmg = 1-shot a1 marine / 2-shots on a3)
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    What if stab fired instantly instead of waiting for the fade to die during its (loud, slow) animation?
    And what if vortex were replaced with metabolise?

    Gosh, I don't know maybe that might help.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    Vortex & Stab suffer from the same problem of requiring too high a biomass level & research cost for its payoff. Reduce the biomass requirement of both and you will see more creative play for each of these.

    Vortex
    Instead of using it in combat, I find the most useful scenario placing vortex in a useful spot so that I can get back to action very quickly.

    1. Engage marine
    2. Place vortex in safe location
    3. Blink back to hive & heal
    4. Vortex back to original location

    Allowing you to constantly be in action, you're only down time consists of going back to hive. Effectively removing half the distance for healing & saving fade energy.

    For those that play 6v6, it also allows you to feign a 'alien pack' on 1 side of the map resulting in marines on the opposite side charging your RT's. You can then vortex back and catch marines unaware...

    I treat vortex like a constantly moving gorge tunnel...

    In fact, a way to make it OP would be having it so swipe doesn't initiate the teleport. You need to activate vortex again or something similar to teleport to vortex location. This means you could place vortex's in strategic places on the map, play like normal but teleport to you're moving 'gorge tunnel' at the appropriate time.

    This would be so OP, but could be balanced out with high biomass level 6-7

    Stab
    Never even had a chance to use it, biomass requirement is too high its never reached. My only suggestion would be leave it at a very high biomass level, but make it like NS1 focus fade.

    i think vortex being triggered on attack is so you can't use it as a get out of jail free card. they intentionally did it so that you can't use it and attack effectively at the same time.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @male_fatalities
    That would be awesome and justifiable on a high biomass. Maybe biomass 7/8. Third hive is meant to be the game ender and that would help.
  • TheKarvaTheKarva Join Date: 2011-06-13 Member: 104251Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    I was actually thinking of a ranged attack that could only target a single marine at a time. While you have Vortex activated, that marine gets slowly dragged towards you. (even if you're no longer looking at them). Think of it like using tow rope or reeling in a fish

    Who would want a marine getting drawn towards you? :D
    imagine a marine magnetically pulled towards you, firing away with his lmg.. or shotgun!

    unless it would be superfast and could be combined with stab = youtube.com/watch?v=3C3poU_0sK4
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Personally I do think that fades should be given more late-game versatility at the cost of some of their killing effectiveness, and the best way to do this is to give them researchable abilities that do NOT focus on directly assaulting marines. Ultimately I think that if this is done right it will make the fade more interesting to play all game AND make it more easy to balance for both pub and comp levels at the same time.

    Anyway I don't have any specific ideas how this should be done, just that it should be some kind of other utility like an anti-structure weapon or a buff/debuff type effect.
  • GeekavengerGeekavenger Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157117Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    What about kind of a single use phase gate. The fade can place 2 Vortexes and as soon as the originating fade touches the Vortex it get transported to the other one and they both dissipate, to balance you could have reduced energy regen while the vortex is "open".

    And to make it really fun you could have any alien touching the Vortex Trigger it and dissipate it. So an errant skulk could ruin the escape of the Fade, or the Fade could help an Onos escape but leave it high and dry and low on energy.

    Or it could be used offensively to sneak an Onos into somewhere. I think it could be a bit overpowered but it would be fun.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    amoral wrote: »
    i think vortex being triggered on attack is so you can't use it as a get out of jail free card. they intentionally did it so that you can't use it and attack effectively at the same time.

    Just have a small delay on it like 3 seconds and it would be no problem. You can normally escape from a room in under 1 second normally, but it does mean you are removing 'pinching'. However just balance it with high biomass
  • shriikeshriike Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184461Members
    I'm loving this thread. Awesome ideas. I like @TheKarva 's idea on vortex. For stab I have my own idea:

    Make it do high structural damage and low marine damage. Fade structure damage was already nerfed a few builds ago because of the fade explosion and usefulness, but when you have enough biomass for stab you might as well help end the game. Fades become the op thing they were with skulk structure damage. Maybe even buff the damage higher than skulk.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    shriike wrote: »
    I'm loving this thread. Awesome ideas. I like @TheKarva 's idea on vortex. For stab I have my own idea:

    Make it do high structural damage and low marine damage. Fade structure damage was already nerfed a few builds ago because of the fade explosion and usefulness, but when you have enough biomass for stab you might as well help end the game. Fades become the op thing they were with skulk structure damage. Maybe even buff the damage higher than skulk.

    at that point why Nerf marine damage at all? just make it a 1 shot of anything short of a3, leave them in parasite range :)
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    TheKarva wrote: »
    I was actually thinking of a ranged attack that could only target a single marine at a time. While you have Vortex activated, that marine gets slowly dragged towards you. (even if you're no longer looking at them). Think of it like using tow rope or reeling in a fish

    Who would want a marine getting drawn towards you? :D
    imagine a marine magnetically pulled towards you, firing away with his lmg.. or shotgun!

    unless it would be superfast and could be combined with stab = youtube.com/watch?v=3C3poU_0sK4

    That's pretty much what you'd use it for most of the time. A quick tap or two to make sure they're within stab/swipe range. Though you could also hold it down to help your teammates catch that retreating EXO. Also, I mentioned "even if you're no longer looking at them"; so you'd be able to keep it active while you're retreating around the corner - perhaps to drag them into a nest of whips & hydras.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    No need to "pull in" the marine, imo... just re implement vortex like it used to be as a ranged weapon, and have it apply to whatever marine you specifically target (bonus points for highlight color on marine changing to denote which one out of a group)

    I've wanted to see this as far back as a couple of weeks after launch..
    I don't think it would be OP either (even if it were, who cares at biomass 9??).. ending up sharing a private space with an A3 W3 Shotgun JP marine after you just used a decent amount of your energy on Vortex guarantees nothing... it just makes the fade's T3 ability fun for once, and accessible to anyone.

    I just think it would be highly effective at ending turtles as well, considering it allows you to pick out a singular marine from a group: exactly how marines travel and how they end up in a turtle. You wouldn't be able to see the marine or the fade either, just hear them battling. After the marine dies or the time expires, they come back from the ether... and goodluck to the fade with escaping the room, i hope he planned well. ;)
  • LústLúst Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178186Members
    I think the problem right now is that it costs tooooooo much energy. Right now you need to play with celery on fades and after about 2-3 swipes with a combination of blinks its back to the shift. Why don't we replace it with a headbutt for late game structure destruction.
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