Fade Upgrades Viability
Vlaad
Join Date: 2012-10-03 Member: 161403Members
Join Date: 2012-10-03 Member: 161403Members
Skipping the discussion is the fade worthless or not since that really comes down to skill as well as hardware one owns so as a general statement in this discussion it is taken as a fact that current (vanilla) fade functions as developers intended.
SO my question would be directed to fade upgrades: Stab and Vortex.
Stab: Slow animation and limits prior to execution of the move make it really... well persistently most useless ability in ns2. In a game where twitch aim and reflexes are meant to be key to win on a lifeform that exists only on mobility I find it highly challenging to find its usage. In pro games it would be highly amusing to see how many kilos would that fade weight more from all the flack it picked up while executing this near pro-Wrestling quality move. In pubs on green server new guy can empty his lungs 3 times over screaming and then kill the fade before strike landed. Its timing is no better. 8 biomass. Game is already won by aliens at that point in large percentage of times, and even if was not, stab does not play any kind of role.
Vortex. Not as funny as stab but still it struggles in finding its place beyond "exibition move" by pro players.
Shadow step while it can be utilized more practically than rest is not really a reason to go for fade upgrades over rest of lifeforms.
That being said I, as a comm, leave fade upgrades persistently last, even going so far to prioritize (in already won game) 4th hive and will do so until player(s) requests a fade upgrade. It is commonly seen as a collectionner's accessory rather than game changer tear such as gorge, skulk, lerk or an onos upgrade. As a player I really don't waste my time with those, axe kill brings more joy than stab kill. It even feels less forced and natural in gameplay sense.
Is there any plan to update/change before mentioned abilities? If so, what can changes can we welcome?
SO my question would be directed to fade upgrades: Stab and Vortex.
Stab: Slow animation and limits prior to execution of the move make it really... well persistently most useless ability in ns2. In a game where twitch aim and reflexes are meant to be key to win on a lifeform that exists only on mobility I find it highly challenging to find its usage. In pro games it would be highly amusing to see how many kilos would that fade weight more from all the flack it picked up while executing this near pro-Wrestling quality move. In pubs on green server new guy can empty his lungs 3 times over screaming and then kill the fade before strike landed. Its timing is no better. 8 biomass. Game is already won by aliens at that point in large percentage of times, and even if was not, stab does not play any kind of role.
Vortex. Not as funny as stab but still it struggles in finding its place beyond "exibition move" by pro players.
Shadow step while it can be utilized more practically than rest is not really a reason to go for fade upgrades over rest of lifeforms.
That being said I, as a comm, leave fade upgrades persistently last, even going so far to prioritize (in already won game) 4th hive and will do so until player(s) requests a fade upgrade. It is commonly seen as a collectionner's accessory rather than game changer tear such as gorge, skulk, lerk or an onos upgrade. As a player I really don't waste my time with those, axe kill brings more joy than stab kill. It even feels less forced and natural in gameplay sense.
Is there any plan to update/change before mentioned abilities? If so, what can changes can we welcome?
Comments
It's not much fun when you don't get to see the result of your labour.
It's actually funny how many different fingers you need to use for a simple attack with stab/vortex to the point it's like doing a mortal kombat combo except you can't use a pillow to button mash.
Vortex I like in theory but I would like it to save the direction you were facing when you placed it and the momentum you had when you use swipe because the sudden stop and wall facing is disorienting.
On that note, Id like to see body parts detach as you swipe... Or explode violently as a blood fountain of arms, legs, eyes, ears and nipples when you stab-kill the 'rine. That would kind of give me the reason to attempt to use it.
-->flash of white hot violence to fix anything wrong
Oven if one could keep track of no less than 3 abilities + energy consumption + health status, you will be more efficient by a large margin just doing "basic" fade play. Again, intuitive smooth gameplay that can be executed quickly is a way to play fade in almost any type of game.
Its not justifiable to switch the style to the one that is more risky, less intuitive, more difficult and reduces ones chances to retreat/win encounter.
I can't tell if stab really is useless and needs changing, because I'm never able to use it.
IIRC you can use it in mid air and even (mini) shadow step while charging it, so it's not like you'd be just standing there next to a shotgun.
In a group fight I could imagine it being pretty strong, because at some point the marines become unmeddable oneshots (armor loss due to bile bomb, spikes, etc.).
I'm not sure if that makes up for the cost though. It would probably still better to just drop a crag and a whip next to a harvester and just keep swiping.
Vortex definitely feels kind of worthless though. I really don't know what to do with it other than fast returning after healing at the hive (where you could just as well use a gorge tunnel in most situations).
Hit&run? Might as well just not engage, if that vortex ports me out again. It's not like they're not welding each other in the time I'm out. In group fights you need the presence of fades, or the shotties will go for the softer targets.
In combat usage? Too predictable. It might work once or twice, but sooner or later the marines will focus the vortrex.
Infact by the time Xeno is up I normally devovle from Fade and start a xeno rampage which is much more fun.
Check at 1:30 ->
I've never played that but it looks clunky and slow to use as a Fade, especially if you are moving, and doesn't let the marine predict your movement at all.
Lets say now your fighting a marine or a group of marines. You attack once, and then blink or shadow step to the roof. Before falling down you place a vortex. Now, after you attack you will again go the roof and make the marines lose their sight of you for one last attack or escape. (this is energy heavy so have adrenal and watch your energy)
Shadow step is a fast and way to have marines lose sight of you, help travel across the map, and increase the power/accuracy of your other attacks.
I'd personally say that the fade upgrade is well worth the cost ^
It's far from clunky or slow. You just aim, click, and you're there. Just as fast as shooting a gun. You should totally buy Dishonored (great game!) and play with it. It's the #1 selling ability in that game.
Yeah you're right it does make it hard for marines to track. But it's supposed to be an upgrade. You can always reduce spammability if it's too OP.
I mean, i suppose it doesn't really matter at that point in the biomass tree, the game is pretty much over anyways.
If the biomass level was kept, i could see stab being unrestricted by movement (aka not requiring SS to be mobile) and having vortex maintain momentum.. and possibly even a damage increase of stab. (one hit kill on A2 marines?)
But i would not change anything if the biomass level were to be lowered or made cheaper per the quote above.
I'm all in favor of removing the movement restriction. In the "base turtle" and "Exo+support" scenarios, it won't make much of a difference, except making it easier for new players to learn. But it might make it worthwhile to use Stab in normal combat, too.
Also, I disagree with always getting the Fade upgrade last. Shadow Step is highly useful IMO, and I feel quite restricted without it. But it feels overpriced for getting truly useful ability, that's true.
I'd also welcome swapping the biomass positions of Vortex+Stab. With the movement restriction removed, Stab might actually become useful in mid game.
(This is all from a pub perspective, obviously.)
Metabolize fits with the fade's gameplay as a lone assassin since it lets the fades operate behind enemy line for extended periods of time, and let fade players be more comfortable with more of a variety of upgrades.
Vortex moving one marine away from his squad, and allowing the fade to fight them 1v1 would definitely be an upgrade worth getting. This would also enhance the assassin role of the fade as it would let them kill squads piece by piece.
Vortex being switched the original CC ability (disables marines that got touched by its AoE effect) would be good as well for the same reason that teleporting a marine away is a good thing. IMO this is not as useful as marines caught in the area could just reload and reposition themselves without risk.
Any exploiting (like using it to teleport Marines into the lava/off a cliff) could easily be fixed with a 2-3 second cooldown on Blink & Shadow step after placing the Vortex. (so it would be impossible to place it in an exploitable spot without falling to your death)
His idea of the Blink and Shadow Step cool down would make the Post Vortex Fade a more even match for a marine (Assuming he is sufficiently tech'd). The Vortex to a death chamber full of whips would be harder to balance. Maybe put a range limit on Vortex, indicated by a color coding the fades vision once active, Tint to blue and fade to normal colors once out of range or something. This way if the aliens make a kill chamber at least it is near the front lines.
Like you said though, while it could be fun it would probably make late game fade WAY to powerful. Either that or it would change the mechanic to the point it was hard to understand.
Or just revert back to original implementation. Vortexing buildings and Exos is infinitely more useful that a 1-hit teleport
Vortex 3.0
- Can be created over a long distance.
- No longer teleports the Fade to it, instead while Blinking, the Fade is drawn toward the vortex at high speed.
- Uses old disabling Vortex shader on the Fade to make him more visibly noticeable.
- After using Blink (as in either after 1 tap of RMB or releasing RMB to stop channeling), vortex is consumed and energy used to create vortex returns to Fade (like it does now).
- Momentum is preserved, allowing the Fade to slingshot through long hallways!
The rest of the fade ups feel near useless to any but the utmost top. (thinking of that vid of vortex in combat)
This isn't a bad idea if it also teleports weapons back too. Would be a good way to incentivize vortex use.
>:P