Okay, I'm a person who moans all the time about stacked times. I moan about it because it's a constant cloud hovering over almost all games. Here's how the stacking process works.
1. A god-like, hero player joins the server. This is a player who pretty much racks up a crazy k/d ratio as either an alien or marine. They usually are very quiet, many times they don't even use a mic. If they are alien they almost always go either lerk or fade if possible, and as marine they always go shotgun/jetpack.
2. After he joins the game, all the good players with some decent sense realize that this guy is good and they don't want to get killed by him over and over so they join his team the next round.
3.The rookies, being dumb and naive, don't realize just how good this guy is, so they just join the other team because they don't feel like waiting.
So basically after all this ends up happening you get a team with a god-like player and several other decent players, while the other team is full of green newbies. The newbies proceed to get slaughtered and soon after the server either dies or is filled with a fresh batch of people of don't realize who the god-like player is yet.
Okay, I'm a person who moans all the time about stacked times. I moan about it because it's a constant cloud hovering over almost all games. Here's how the stacking process works.
1. A god-like, hero player joins the server. This is a player who pretty much racks up a crazy k/d ratio as either an alien or marine. They usually are very quiet, many times they don't even use a mic. If they are alien they almost always go either lerk or fade if possible, and as marine they always go shotgun/jetpack.
2. After he joins the game, all the good players with some decent sense realize that this guy is good and they don't want to get killed by him over and over so they join his team the next round.
3.The rookies, being dumb and naive, don't realize just how good this guy is, so they just join the other team because they don't feel like waiting.
So basically after all this ends up happening you get a team with a god-like player and several other decent players, while the other team is full of green newbies. The newbies proceed to get slaughtered and soon after the server either dies or is filled with a fresh batch of people of don't realize who the god-like player is yet.
Yeah...but I hope you don't blame the god-like player for that.
I got banned going 25:1 as gorge on a combat server, managed to argue myself an unban as admin really couldnt give a reason for the ban (probably just a umad? Moment) anyway the end arguement it ended on was stack, on combat, where I joined aliens as first player, playing gorge the entire time. Fun times, has the guy on friends now.
It's the truth most of the time, especially on the big name servers. Like the LuckyFkers server for instance is awful the majority of the time. I was one there once, and I think it was around 6-7 rounds where the same LF members and a few other select players constantly went to the same team and just rolled the opposing team over and over again. I even saw 1 guy that was stacking with them sit spec one round because he couldn't get on the stacked team, lol. Even with people complaining about it, they continually did it with no shame.
I tend to try and stay away from the large name servers and stick to servers where people constantly vote shuffle the teams. Some servers like ns2diamonds also randomly lock down the server and do a captain/pick teams type thing that usually has good results. KingKahuna servers are also really good, almost every round is shuffled.
I was speaking to a few people who said they'd seen two man teams turn up, always same side ending up ruining the games and emptying servers. Not sure how true that is but don't see what they'd get from doing that.
You must be playing on bad servers with muppets, wheres the fun in pile driving new players? I do however feel your pain @NS-Soldier. There are some great community servers out there, find a good one that is anti-stacking.
The amount of times I've been in a game, and I know EXACTLY which team I need to join to win... The ones that are also using mics, like me.. Not to say you need a mic to win, but it certainty helps
Theres got to be some way to make this game more balanced, does seem to be alot of stacking on this game.. People just always wanna be on the winning team, instead of having a fair and balanced game! Can get rather irrating, even being on the winning team it is irritating because the other team either surrenders 10 mins in, or loads of them will rage quit
Do you think the introduction of skill has helped? People wanting to keep that point up? I would say that communication is a massive part of NS2, players with no mic don't help [-X
I think some people like to label playing with friends as stacking a bit too much. Without a doubt there is the problem of people intentionally joining games with friends with the sole intention of crushing lower skilled players for fun. However something I run in to a lot when I choose to play NS2 with a friend is being blamed for unbalanced games.
NS2 is a intensely teamplay focused game, so naturally one of the most enjoyable ways to play it is with friends you enjoy playing with, more so when you are actually on the same team. Unfortunately in most pub games two players working together who know what they are doing is generally enough to win the game. This then leads to the issue other people have mentioned of "nobody wants to play against the good people" so then stacking starts to happen and the better players get the heat for it.
So who is at fault in that situation? Should nobody be allowed on the same team with some friends if they are good players? (nobody complains about 2-3 friends stacking if they arent having a massive impact on the game). Should these players not be allowed to pub and should stick to competitive matches only so as not to ruin pub games?
Hopefully when the gather system is implemented this will accommodate players who want to group up with friends so they dont have to terrorize pub games in the hope of stumbling across some competition. As I see it its a pretty difficult problem to handle as the scope of both player skill and teamwork is massive across pub games and there isnt really much of a solid system in place (yet!) to accommodate more organised pub play where people can group up with friends without unbalancing a game.
Do you think the introduction of skill has helped?
NO. This deserves its own topic. It's done nothing but force round starts to take longer, since no one wants to play commander. Despite the "skill" system being completely meaningless and poorly implemented, people treat it seriously, like it's an experience bar or something. The secondary problem from this system is that your "skill" PLUMMETS if you decide to com/khamm a round or two. Since "skill" is kill based, you're unlikely to experience a net gain unless you go early sentries against some particularly poor aliens (or get really lucky with some whip kills).
"I don't want to com, that'll kill my skill level!!"
(Edit: Just to be sure my point is clear, I'm unhappy with the system itself, not your post, Mucky. I agree with all of the points you've made thus far in the thread.)
http://hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/24651600
Feel free to inspect my recent rounds. If I'm participating on the ground, my rounds are generally 300-400 skill, but the ones where I com (which is often, nowadays) show up 0-100. I don't know if it recorded all of my com rounds, but it certainly caught some of them.
To reiterate, I personally don't care about the skill system (I'm well aware of how bad I am, and it doesn't stop me from enjoying the game ). I would, however, like to submit my Hive stats as data that show that there's a problem with the way comming works with the skill calculation.
Also, you said stay in the chair the whole time. Does this mean if I jump out of the chair to (attempt to) pop a skulk chewing on my IP's, my skill rating will take an invariably large nosedive, since my whole contribution to the game was apparently one kill (or, more realistically, one death)?
Well, I've had games where I started as khamm then hopped out to skulk around or something and somebody hops in, then round ends w/ me outta chair and some points and I get like a 37. I've also late joined a game right when they lose/win to get a score of 0. But I do comm fairly often and almost never do those games show up. I think if you're out of chair long enough for you to start getting res, maybe then the round sends or something?
Maybe someone w/ some more knowledge could enlighten us.
Oh just hide the entire hive system tbh. Especially the website (given that menu values will be out next patch already).
a smaller group of people could be put together to review and refine the algorithm (win/loss is actually the only way this should be done, but it seems that this message isn't getting through). None of that should be done in public though.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
The trouble with Win/Loss only, like today, we were sat with 8v12 for almost 5 minutes in a game, because no-one wanted to change from the winning team and screw their skill score.
Using win/loss in this means that people will be forever changing to the winning team and all the other stupid tricks people pull because they lack anything of value in their own lives and have to have an e-peen to rub in other people's faces.
Another example, earlier we had a skill-balanced match, and guess what? While the teams were evenly matched overall, we had 1 player on our team who had a much higher skill rating than the rest of us. So essentially it was one carry player and a team of noobs, against a more evenly distributed team. While the high skilled player did increase the balance slightly, the rest of the team, myself included, were getting hammered. Had he not left before the end, we might not have been whipped so badly, but this is all about win/loss, so I guess he didn't want to damage his high skill rating..
If you lose a game, you obviously have no skill, and if you win a game, you obviously are a god.
Essentially, that is what win/loss becomes, a statistic that means nothing, with people swapping teams before the end etc. It used to annoy the crap out of me in other games, and now we want the same focus on win/loss?
Can I make a request, that being a part of this skill system is entirely voluntary, and if I do not want to be skill ranked, give me an option to opt out. And I mean opt out, not just hidden, but fully no stats recorded in an identifiable way opt-out.
Soul rider the same argument is true of any algorithm but is so much worse for those. I agree with you about the problem and would also prefer it to be opt out, but that isn't likely to help matchmaking causes.
The more parameters you include in the function, the more different ways there will be to abuse it. Like right now it's all about rookie farming to get a high k/d.
There are so many reasons not to change teams already, but there may be ways to discourage that behavior (eg only count complete games played on one team - there would be other ways beside this, too).
I think it's better to get the stats right and robust and work around that than to fudge the stats from the start.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
And the current system is?
I lost all 8 games i played yesterday, either because:
a) I switched to the losing team because I didn't want to wait for respawn, I want to play the game.. (Team-Auto Balance and delayed spawns is another annoying thing).
b) I was on the crap team and we got stuffed.
I would say the only way to make the stats fair is the results get discarded if Team Auto Balance has to be activated during a round. Then all those people who refuse to keep the teams even because of their score, are wasting their time.
As it is, with my skill score well below 200, I would be matched with rookies, who I would generally outplay. I would of course still switch to the losing side to spawn, meaning I would be losing in games full of rookies, never improving my skill score, and being stuck playing with people who are not as good as me, despite what the ranking would say...
Or I could become a complete ass, not swap teams etc, quit when my team is losing, and swap permanently to the winning team, which is what everyone else on Pubs seems to be doing...
I don't think people leave the losing team because they are afraid of lowering their "skill number". They probably leave because of the same reason people left before this system was implemented, they don't feel like losing for the next hour.
Honestly I don't think many players care about their arbitrary "skill" number. Considering it changes absolutely nothing with your play experience.
If you do, you are probably one of those players that actively tries to stack the high k:d players team.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
You don't think people care? When I tried to get people to swap to our team, when we were down to 8v12, people gave not lowering their skill level as an excuse on the server.
I don't give a shit myself, as previously mentioned, I will swap to the losing team as long as it means I get to respawn and keep playing. Winning or losing is not important to me, having fun is. This is why I don't want systems in which use winning and losing as a metric for deciding how good you are/not and who you can play with.
Sure it's a team game, but if I am on your team, your probably going to lose. Does that make you the crap player? According this system, it will....
In fact, I even Merc'd with Archaea during Beta a few times in scrims against other teams, and they lost every round I played. Think what that would have done to their skill rating, as a good example to highlight what an inaccurate system it is...
What's really annoying is when a game has been going on for 25+ minutes with lots of back and forth, and then when one team FINALLY starts getting the upper hand they are accused of stacking. I guess it's easier to accept defeat when you convince yourself that the other team had an unfair advantage.
With really good games being somewhat of a rarity these days, it is frustrating when someone develops stacking-paranoia and starts pointing fingers. But I guess you could say that the paranoia comes as a result of the increasing number of stacked games.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
As broken as the ranking and skill score might be, I would like to see it used in a randomize ready room. Currently, whenever we random, we tend to get a bad game in pubs as more often than not, the best 2-3 players are randomized to one team and promptly stomp the other team. We have reverted to captain's picks when we can on the Australian servers I play on (UWE official and Monash). But need to have a large number of regulars to make this work. So, if randomize ready room based on skill score would be implemented, it would be nice.
It explains why my skill fluctuates so much (not that I care less) and why I see players leaving before the end of games.... hmmmmmm
personally, I'll leave if the game is over, as in turtle mode, or an alt-concede mechanic/emphasize my choice in that regard, or im playing so badly I don't even feel like I need a break from ns2 for a bit. that last one is a combination of rage and frustration.
Comments
This is exactly right.
it does feel good, until i remember that i'm currently 1:3 with them personally...
God.willing it doesn't run to 1:5, that generally means we're going to lose massively in pubs.
@ItsSuperEffective! How is that vid coming along?
I tend to try and stay away from the large name servers and stick to servers where people constantly vote shuffle the teams. Some servers like ns2diamonds also randomly lock down the server and do a captain/pick teams type thing that usually has good results. KingKahuna servers are also really good, almost every round is shuffled.
The amount of times I've been in a game, and I know EXACTLY which team I need to join to win... The ones that are also using mics, like me.. Not to say you need a mic to win, but it certainty helps
Theres got to be some way to make this game more balanced, does seem to be alot of stacking on this game.. People just always wanna be on the winning team, instead of having a fair and balanced game! Can get rather irrating, even being on the winning team it is irritating because the other team either surrenders 10 mins in, or loads of them will rage quit
NS2 is a intensely teamplay focused game, so naturally one of the most enjoyable ways to play it is with friends you enjoy playing with, more so when you are actually on the same team. Unfortunately in most pub games two players working together who know what they are doing is generally enough to win the game. This then leads to the issue other people have mentioned of "nobody wants to play against the good people" so then stacking starts to happen and the better players get the heat for it.
So who is at fault in that situation? Should nobody be allowed on the same team with some friends if they are good players? (nobody complains about 2-3 friends stacking if they arent having a massive impact on the game). Should these players not be allowed to pub and should stick to competitive matches only so as not to ruin pub games?
Hopefully when the gather system is implemented this will accommodate players who want to group up with friends so they dont have to terrorize pub games in the hope of stumbling across some competition. As I see it its a pretty difficult problem to handle as the scope of both player skill and teamwork is massive across pub games and there isnt really much of a solid system in place (yet!) to accommodate more organised pub play where people can group up with friends without unbalancing a game.
NO. This deserves its own topic. It's done nothing but force round starts to take longer, since no one wants to play commander. Despite the "skill" system being completely meaningless and poorly implemented, people treat it seriously, like it's an experience bar or something. The secondary problem from this system is that your "skill" PLUMMETS if you decide to com/khamm a round or two. Since "skill" is kill based, you're unlikely to experience a net gain unless you go early sentries against some particularly poor aliens (or get really lucky with some whip kills).
"I don't want to com, that'll kill my skill level!!"
(Edit: Just to be sure my point is clear, I'm unhappy with the system itself, not your post, Mucky. I agree with all of the points you've made thus far in the thread.)
Pretty sure rounds aren't recorded when you comm, at least if you're in chair whole time.
Feel free to inspect my recent rounds. If I'm participating on the ground, my rounds are generally 300-400 skill, but the ones where I com (which is often, nowadays) show up 0-100. I don't know if it recorded all of my com rounds, but it certainly caught some of them.
To reiterate, I personally don't care about the skill system (I'm well aware of how bad I am, and it doesn't stop me from enjoying the game
Also, you said stay in the chair the whole time. Does this mean if I jump out of the chair to (attempt to) pop a skulk chewing on my IP's, my skill rating will take an invariably large nosedive, since my whole contribution to the game was apparently one kill (or, more realistically, one death)?
Maybe someone w/ some more knowledge could enlighten us.
a smaller group of people could be put together to review and refine the algorithm (win/loss is actually the only way this should be done, but it seems that this message isn't getting through). None of that should be done in public though.
Using win/loss in this means that people will be forever changing to the winning team and all the other stupid tricks people pull because they lack anything of value in their own lives and have to have an e-peen to rub in other people's faces.
Another example, earlier we had a skill-balanced match, and guess what? While the teams were evenly matched overall, we had 1 player on our team who had a much higher skill rating than the rest of us. So essentially it was one carry player and a team of noobs, against a more evenly distributed team. While the high skilled player did increase the balance slightly, the rest of the team, myself included, were getting hammered. Had he not left before the end, we might not have been whipped so badly, but this is all about win/loss, so I guess he didn't want to damage his high skill rating..
If you lose a game, you obviously have no skill, and if you win a game, you obviously are a god.
Essentially, that is what win/loss becomes, a statistic that means nothing, with people swapping teams before the end etc. It used to annoy the crap out of me in other games, and now we want the same focus on win/loss?
Can I make a request, that being a part of this skill system is entirely voluntary, and if I do not want to be skill ranked, give me an option to opt out. And I mean opt out, not just hidden, but fully no stats recorded in an identifiable way opt-out.
The more parameters you include in the function, the more different ways there will be to abuse it. Like right now it's all about rookie farming to get a high k/d.
There are so many reasons not to change teams already, but there may be ways to discourage that behavior (eg only count complete games played on one team - there would be other ways beside this, too).
I think it's better to get the stats right and robust and work around that than to fudge the stats from the start.
I lost all 8 games i played yesterday, either because:
a) I switched to the losing team because I didn't want to wait for respawn, I want to play the game.. (Team-Auto Balance and delayed spawns is another annoying thing).
b) I was on the crap team and we got stuffed.
I would say the only way to make the stats fair is the results get discarded if Team Auto Balance has to be activated during a round. Then all those people who refuse to keep the teams even because of their score, are wasting their time.
As it is, with my skill score well below 200, I would be matched with rookies, who I would generally outplay. I would of course still switch to the losing side to spawn, meaning I would be losing in games full of rookies, never improving my skill score, and being stuck playing with people who are not as good as me, despite what the ranking would say...
Or I could become a complete ass, not swap teams etc, quit when my team is losing, and swap permanently to the winning team, which is what everyone else on Pubs seems to be doing...
Honestly I don't think many players care about their arbitrary "skill" number. Considering it changes absolutely nothing with your play experience.
If you do, you are probably one of those players that actively tries to stack the high k:d players team.
I don't give a shit myself, as previously mentioned, I will swap to the losing team as long as it means I get to respawn and keep playing. Winning or losing is not important to me, having fun is. This is why I don't want systems in which use winning and losing as a metric for deciding how good you are/not and who you can play with.
Sure it's a team game, but if I am on your team, your probably going to lose. Does that make you the crap player? According this system, it will....
In fact, I even Merc'd with Archaea during Beta a few times in scrims against other teams, and they lost every round I played. Think what that would have done to their skill rating, as a good example to highlight what an inaccurate system it is...
What's really annoying is when a game has been going on for 25+ minutes with lots of back and forth, and then when one team FINALLY starts getting the upper hand they are accused of stacking. I guess it's easier to accept defeat when you convince yourself that the other team had an unfair advantage.
With really good games being somewhat of a rarity these days, it is frustrating when someone develops stacking-paranoia and starts pointing fingers. But I guess you could say that the paranoia comes as a result of the increasing number of stacked games.
personally, I'll leave if the game is over, as in turtle mode, or an alt-concede mechanic/emphasize my choice in that regard, or im playing so badly I don't even feel like I need a break from ns2 for a bit. that last one is a combination of rage and frustration.