A Civil Discussion on why the Big Announcement was not so big....

IdlerayIdleray Join Date: 2012-10-04 Member: 161464Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
For me personally it was a let down and the reason is simple.

For me e-sports is as much as about hype as it is about the spectacle of top-level team play and display of skill. What's hype? It's the personalities, the rivalries, the tribalistic US vs THEM mindset between fans of different teams, fans of different countries.

I do not feel any hype for the NS2 e-sports scene right now. Sure there's a higher level of player skill and teamwork on offer, but the events on Twitch rarely get 800+ viewers. There is little to no scene in the Asian countries. The prize money on offer can't compete with the other big names (but this is the leastest gripe. The big ones we gotta work on is still growing the size of this community).

It all comes back to that perennial problem; you need to grow the player base, you need more community involvement, you need a REASON for people to keep coming back for more, and THEN they will go "oh hey look it's a tournament for this game that I am emotionally invested in, I better check it out!".

So really I am disappointed because the Big Announcement wasn't the BUS or the organised play system or some other persistent player stat-tracking gadgetry. The latter would've gotten me to play again earlier. This new tournament does not affect my enthusiasm levels.
joohoo_n3dfrantixBlarney_StoneSilverwingWoefulDragonNominousDeadite AshSolidSpiderMalGanis2elodeaMasterBatellnic[Deleted User]RisingSunKeizo
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Comments

  • Dictator93Dictator93 Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 657 Fully active user
    edited October 2013
    I find it disappointing because I cannot convince myself that I can afford to donate. If it involved the expansion of the game in some sense (like reinforced), I would try and give more... but I am not positive if an esporting event is worth it.
    I enjoyed watching it last time around... but I enjoy watching the non-localised event online also (blind etc,...). Not sure.-...
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 216 Fully active user
    edited October 2013
    CCTEE wrote: »
    I enjoy watching good comp games with nice casting.
    yes, me too.
    i will edit my original wording.
    thank you.


    ps. they still haven't delivered on the promise of posters and tshirts from the reinforcement program and now theyre asking us to raise more than twice as much money for an event we cant participate in?
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 772 Advanced user
    Well, quite often companies work like this:
    You have a marketing budget, you use it for marketing.
    You have a development budget, you use it for development.
    You balance the two, set goals and budget for, lets say a year, and you keep those budgets in place so the different departments can actually function and plan ahead.
    grrrr im beast
  • IdlerayIdleray Join Date: 2012-10-04 Member: 161464Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
    Wait, can someone explain to me how organising Tournaments help sell copies of this game? My impression was that things like Tournaments cement customer loyalty of existing players, so they will buy more in-game stuff further down the line, or are more likely to buy products from the game company.

    And this is why according to my limited understanding there seems little sense in spending money promoting NS2 esports, YET.

    There's

    1. Little in the way of stuff for players to purchase in-game, whether it be micro-transaction stuff like LOL or a subscription fee like WOW

    2. Not enough numbers in the community to make the above work anyway

    3. No other UWE titles.


    So, I'm not saying tournaments are useless. they keep part of the community alive and busy, but does little to grow it and keep the base of casual players.
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 216 Fully active user
    CCTEE wrote: »
    Well, quite often companies work like this:
    You have a marketing budget, you use it for marketing.
    You have a development budget, you use it for development.
    You balance the two, set goals and budget for, lets say a year, and you keep those budgets in place so the different departments can actually function and plan ahead.
    umm...theyre asking for our budgets.
    "quite often companies" NEVER DO THAT.
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 772 Advanced user
    Companies always ask for budgets i.e. money.

    The product for this one is just more subtle and diverse:

    -you get a hamburger
    vs:
    -you get a community spirit boost, something too watch, some 'social status' (i.e. badges), a feeling to belong / feel part of.. etc.
    grrrr im beast
    meatmachine
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
  • Butane45Butane45 Join Date: 2013-07-29 Member: 186444Members Posts: 11
    I spent the last half hour of the cast really hoping it was a joke that went too far.


    UWE: look at the badges of the people in this thread. These are your core audience. These are the people who had no problem throwing money at you for Reinforced.
    RadimaXKeizo
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Posts: 1,194
    edited October 2013
    So much caring in this thread... It is quite adorable, actually. :P

    Yours truly, Missed-the-whole-big-what-thing?
    image
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AU Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Posts: 514 mod
    So much negativity...

    No one can make you guys be excited for this tournament, and its fair enough that you guys feel it was a letdown. I would say that the hype might have been read into a bit too much, but this event will affect the community positively. Trust.

    But hey, if you guys aren't interested in supporting the tournament, you don't have to. But believe me, this is pretty different, just based on the fact that 4 teams are going, and its live semis and grand finals. Add in international teams and a huge front page position on twitch it will most likely be a fantastic event.
    Blarney_Stonemeatmachinemushookeeselodea
  • IdlerayIdleray Join Date: 2012-10-04 Member: 161464Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
    seb, it was not my intention to be un-constructive in my negativity. I can't deny feeling let down, and perhaps you make a fair point. The tournament is probably going to turn out to be a positive thing in the end.

    But you know what would be more positive? What would work synergistically, in tandem with something like this that leads to a lot of exposure for the game?

    That would be a more a more welcoming gaming experience especially for new players. I understand that UWE has definitely made progress in this area, but it is my belief that ALL of their resources should be put into this. That anything and everything that helps player retention should be priority #1(as far as NS2 is concerned, obviously UWE could be focusing on their next game and I've no beef with that).
    joohoo_n3dmushookees
  • killer monkeykiller monkey Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70743Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 574 Advanced user
    I just simply don't care in the least about competitive, at all, in any way.
  • RedSwordRedSword Join Date: 2006-12-07 Member: 58947Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 308 Advanced user
    Idleray wrote: »
    3. No other UWE titles.

    http://unknownworlds.com/games/

    NS1, Zen of Sudoku.

    And you prefer to join an alive game than a dead one. Also some competitive players from outside might be interested.
    Nazo
  • MorshuMorshu Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155539Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 84 Fully active user
    I understand what they're trying to do with this whole "world championship" thing but if UWE really REALLY wants some SOLID EXPOSURE they need to approach Totalbiscuit or even Angry joe.

    It kills me that totalbiscuit has yet to upload the NS2 footage from PAX, in my opinion he really needs to drop the "Hearthstone" bandwagon for a couple of days and do a WTF is NS2 video already since he obviously either missed out on the interview with UWE at PAX or simply put lost the footage.
    -Lamp oil? rope? bombs? you want it? it's yours my friend as long as you have enough P.res!
    -MAH BOI this game is what all true warriors strive for
    -Most people today wouldn't know what culture is even if it jumped up and bit their nose!
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 772 Advanced user
    @Idleray
    Space, Year of our Lord 2561 (or somethin)

    Sir,

    Your unconstrucrivess is beyond words! No longer will I allow this gross ravaging of Lady UWE's honor.
    I will meet you at noon for Tea and a duel to the death afterwards.
    Bring the familiy.

    Kind Regards,
    CCTEE
    grrrr im beast
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AU Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Posts: 514 mod
    Fair point again. I wasn't saying you specifically.

    That is fair enough. But this is barely anything to do with UWE. Apart from the funding if we raise 30k, UWE will be putting no resources into the organisation and development of this tournament. I hope that clears it up for a few people. UWE is a sponsor, not the host/organiser.

    I want to see the same features in the game too, but it doesn't make me any less excited for a tournament like this. :)
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 216 Fully active user
    had UWE and Hugh Jeremy marketed a huge "community" announcement then we ALL would have had our expectations properly set and wouldve been able to enjoy this fully.
    but since it was promoted by UWE as something big that will change the face of the community for the sole purpose for us to watch the show and donate for the event...well, i'm still getting over the massive disappointment and anger at being misled by the UWE website and Jeremy Hughs post titled "Tune in For Something Big"
    ...an honest title would've been "Tune in For Something Big from the NS2 Community"
    ...but then they wouldnt have gotten as many donations.
    great work hugh, you did what you wanted!
  • wulfwulf Join Date: 2008-08-03 Member: 64749Members Posts: 415 Fully active user
    Idleray wrote: »
    you need a REASON for people to keep coming back for more

    This in my opinion is the most important bit, moreso even than expanding the playerbase.

    UW's fatal flaw was letting their hardcore base, alpha preorders, ns1 vets, and all fanboys slip through their fingers by ignoring performance and simple necessities (such as a functional key binding system). With it's steeper learning curve NS isn't in need of exposure to new players, it needs to be enjoyable to keep those new players through the learning process.

    Zomb3hUgly_JimKeizo
  • KbpringleKbpringle Join Date: 2013-08-21 Member: 187003Members Posts: 29
    A let down. Well for anyone that's not a comp player it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever so I'd say the fact that its not actually an announcement for most players is a pretty decent reason it was a letdown.

    "It will change the face of the NS2 community" - I don't see how this is even remotely true. <<<<<br>
    How? How in any way does this affect most players ?

    Another feelgood event funded by players that will involve no more than 200 players. (And I think that's a high guess)
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AU Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Posts: 514 mod
    wulf wrote: »
    Idleray wrote: »
    you need a REASON for people to keep coming back for more

    This in my opinion is the most important bit, moreso even than expanding the playerbase.

    UW's fatal flaw was letting their hardcore base, alpha preorders, ns1 vets, and all fanboys slip through their fingers by ignoring performance and simple necessities (such as a functional key binding system). With it's steeper learning curve NS isn't in need of exposure to new players, it needs to be enjoyable to keep those new players through the learning process.
    I'm pretty sure alpha preorders, NS1 vets, and the hardcore competitive players all want better performance and a functional key binding system. If you polled them all I suspect they'd prefer that stuff to this tournament. This is coming from one of those NS1 veteran preorder people.

    -_-

    This tournament isn't instead of those things. It's an independently run tournament.
    Scorpion9908elodea
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    edited October 2013
    Morshu wrote: »
    It kills me that totalbiscuit has yet to upload the NS2 footage from PAX, in my opinion he really needs to drop the "Hearthstone" bandwagon for a couple of days and do a WTF is NS2 video already since he obviously either missed out on the interview with UWE at PAX or simply put lost the footage.

    He is actually doing them a favor in particular, because he likes Hugh. Unlike other PAX videos, he wanted to record a commentary for NS2 later on instead of using the one live from the show. And he is waiting with the video until a patch fixed the performance issues that arose after the Reinforced update.

    While TB can give a big popularity boost to games, he's like a card that you need to play at the right time to make the most of it. You need to make sure that the game is in a top condition so that it can actually draw people in with the new popularity instead of losing them right away due to bad first impressions.

    Performance is one major thing that influences first impressions. Getting stomped by veterans is another thing, though, so ideally he would not release the floodgates until some kind of matchmaking system is in place that prevents stacked roflstomps against rookie teams. Because that is exactly what killed SMNC after TB promoted it.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
    NominousMasterBatmushookees
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    For me it was a bit bizarre to watch the stream.
    On the left side 4 people trying to tell us how awesome this tournament going to be and on the right side the reactions.

    In times with 800 players peak and top teams disbanding (duplex, archea, godar,..) this is the big event every one is waiting for?

    NO

    Why the hell should i pay some € to see the the usual suspects in cologne?

    @UWE
    In your marketing blabla you try to tell the people "Hey, be part of this. Join a team, you can be in cologne"
    Cmon, dont tell me you believe in that.

    My predictions for the finals: Snails vs Saunamen
    image
    Ugly_Jim
  • MorshuMorshu Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155539Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 84 Fully active user
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Morshu wrote: »
    It kills me that totalbiscuit has yet to upload the NS2 footage from PAX, in my opinion he really needs to drop the "Hearthstone" bandwagon for a couple of days and do a WTF is NS2 video already since he obviously either missed out on the interview with UWE at PAX or simply put lost the footage.

    He is actually doing them a favor in particular, because he likes Hugh. Unlike other PAX videos, he wanted to record a commentary for NS2 later on instead of using the one live from the show. And he is waiting with the video until a patch fixed the performance issues that arose after the Reinforced update.

    While TB can give a big popularity boost to games, he's like a card that you need to play at the right time to make the most of it. You need to make sure that the game is in a top condition so that it can actually draw people in with the new popularity instead of losing them right away due to bad first impressions.

    Performance is one major thing that influences first impressions. Getting stomped by veterans is another thing, though, so ideally he would not release the floodgates until some kind of matchmaking system is in place that prevents stacked roflstomps against rookie teams. Because that is exactly what killed SMNC after TB promoted it.

    Dare I ask for a 'source' on this? :o
    -Lamp oil? rope? bombs? you want it? it's yours my friend as long as you have enough P.res!
    -MAH BOI this game is what all true warriors strive for
    -Most people today wouldn't know what culture is even if it jumped up and bit their nose!
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