SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited October 2013
Well, it was also a lot easier to make a ns1 map as they were all pretty basic compared to now. I know I always see mappers updating the community on the status on the map though. UWE have to worry about a lot more stuff now though since it's built on their own engine, not a third party one. Still doesn't mean they can't interact with the community though. I can kinda prove that if it is client side and does NOT need to pass consistency it is a LOT more popular. Just look at how many people downloaded the menu poses mod, which doesn't even need to pass consistency. Or skins, those pass consistency most times too, so I also think part of it is server Admins not running enough community mods either. Maybe it would be useful to create some sort of poll for server admins to fill out asking simple questions like why don't you run more custom maps and mods? How often do you look for mods in the workshop? How often do you check the UWE forums creation sub-forum? Maybe they should create an @NS2Mods which is dedicated to just spotligthing maps and mods
Even if they do run them, people still don't play them. All these great game modes out there going unplayed. Not once have I seen someone play faded LS xenoswarm or classic in the last 6 months.
Even if they do run them, people still don't play them. All these great game modes out there going unplayed. Not once have I seen someone play faded LS xenoswarm or classic in the last 6 months.
I put 8 community maps on my server for the first time today. I was able to play only 3 of them because I would always get a "files differ than the server" for almost all of them. I have never joined a server with custom maps or mods so I have nothing in my mod cache.
Mappers are kind of wasting their time at this point if a server is downloading the latest version off of the workshop but clients can't join. I thought that if you join a server running a map or mod the game downloads the map or mod automatically for you and then you just join and play. today this was not the case... Booooooo!
I put 8 community maps on my server for the first time today. I was able to play only 3 of them because I would always get a "files differ than the server" for almost all of them. I have never joined a server with custom maps or mods so I have nothing in my mod cache.
Mappers are kind of wasting their time at this point if a server is downloading the latest version off of the workshop but clients can't join. I thought that if you join a server running a map or mod the game downloads the map or mod automatically for you and then you just join and play. today this was not the case... Booooooo!
Yeah mappers are wasting their time because either a) Steam workshop is working like crap or b) a bug in programming.
That's because there's a bug since god knows when that if a map is using something that is missing a texture or whatever (ie. not even the server has it) it fails consistency checking.
Ie. Jambi with jambi_black.material, you need to add that to excludes for the map to work, for example.
That's because there's a bug since god knows when that if a map is using something that is missing a texture or whatever (ie. not even the server has it) it fails consistency checking.
Ie. Jambi with jambi_black.material, you need to add that to excludes for the map to work, for example.
I have been looking since the end of time for this jambi_black.material. I cannot find it for the life of me. I don't know who put it in there (it certainly was not me) and I have 0 contact with any of the mappers that made it.
I'm guessing if we turn off the consistency checking on the server it will stop the issue... but it is not worth it to run maps. I'd rather have checks to cut down on dbags.
You have to add the missing resources to the ignore list, so, change the server to the map, see what "missing X" errors come up, take note, then add them to your consistency config, such as for jambi:
That's because there's a bug since god knows when that if a map is using something that is missing a texture or whatever (ie. not even the server has it) it fails consistency checking.
Ie. Jambi with jambi_black.material, you need to add that to excludes for the map to work, for example.
I have been looking since the end of time for this jambi_black.material. I cannot find it for the life of me. I don't know who put it in there (it certainly was not me) and I have 0 contact with any of the mappers that made it.
Any ideas on how to search for it?
Yes, create a dummy texture file with that name (copy another texture and give it that name and put it where it should), then use the "Select by texture" feature in the editor to select all faces with that texture and change it to another texture. That should do the trick. Also, these errors come up in NSL Jambi, not sure if normal Jambi has the problem.
I agree uwe need to give more support to the community, maps and mods are one area they claimed ns2 was special yet mods break every update and custom maps hardly get played, partly due to lack of awareness and there being so many incomplete ones or playability issues, players in general are also quite unforgiving and sometimes pathetic from what i've seen on servers, complaining about minor or irrelevant stuff, sometimes simply that they didn't like it so it was rubbish!
I remember the complaints about jambi being too big or some combat maps people just didn't like because they were different, fun or imperfect maps are frowned upon by some it seems, they may prefer dull a to b maps with no interesting features, it's a shame when people invest a lot of time and love into a map only for it to go unplayed or trash talked.
I suggest mappers take a simpler approach to getting maps out quicker while still looking good. forget excessive grey boxing and detail work, with the amount of models and textures we have there's really no need to leave areas looking dull and boring for so long, dump some models and slap some textures to get a general style going, from there you can improve as much as you like but at least you'll have something, don't try to match the quality of the official maps, you can get there eventually but no need to early on.
The biggest time waste must be detail work, geometry and texturing, i've seen videos on youtube where some mappers spend hours making sure textures are aligned on some small curved geometry or floor bump, this is really the most time consuming stuff and should be left for later or not bothered with beyond the basics, remember how simple maps used to be, all that mattered was how fun and playable they were, they often didn't look great but they weren't bad either, now we have enough models to get something that looks good and can be done in a reasonable time in theory, as long as mappers don't waste it on details or perfection early on.
I challenge mappers to start making maps this way, see how fast you can get a mostly model based map out, i bet it takes weeks instead of months.
I suggest mappers take a simpler approach to getting maps out quicker while still looking good. forget excessive grey boxing and detail work, with the amount of models and textures we have there's really no need to leave areas looking dull and boring for so long, dump some models and slap some textures to get a general style going, from there you can improve as much as you like but at least you'll have something, don't try to match the quality of the official maps, you can get there eventually but no need to early on.
The biggest time waste must be detail work, geometry and texturing, i've seen videos on youtube where some mappers spend hours making sure textures are aligned on some small curved geometry or floor bump, this is really the most time consuming stuff and should be left for later or not bothered with beyond the basics, remember how simple maps used to be, all that mattered was how fun and playable they were, they often didn't look great but they weren't bad either, now we have enough models to get something that looks good and can be done in a reasonable time in theory, as long as mappers don't waste it on details or perfection early on.
I wish this would be so simple as it may sounds but it's not. That is why you see just dull grayboxes with nothing of interest with few detailed rooms. If you'd make a map for any other game you'd realise that NS2 is probably the most complex game to make a map. For example, you can make a nice detailed map for CSGO in few months because the gameplay is really simple, you just have to have 2 spawns, 2 bombsites and take account timings and the fact that players use hit scan weapons. That is usually just making 6 rooms and connecting those with corridors.
in NS2 you have to take notice in timings, how big the rooms and how wide and long the corridors are for skulks to be effective, make sure there are enough vents, how many techpoints and resnodes are enough for a balanced game, spawn locations, arc distances, bottle necks... it is just so complex and if you don't take these things into account, players will notice these things and will exploit them to the point that the map can be considered broken.
What this means is that a lot of experimentation and re-iteration is required. Putting some textures and models into a map which is going to be fully remade eventually, which might please your eyes, is just a waste of time.
LokiJoin Date: 2012-07-07Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited October 2013
and the resource point / techpoint distribution as after all it has RTS aspects.
As for kodiak I am doing somthing the game does not have props for (other than rocks) that I could use and because of this I dont want to use lots of refinery / docking / veil / descent etc props to flesh it out. People would get the wrong idea as to what my maps theme is, as soon as people see your map they decide if they like it or not and that sticks with them forever they will not be willing to give it a second chance, if it has random stuff placed all over they wont think highly of it. If its greybox they wont think highly of it but they will come back and try it again still being open minded when it has been more fleshed out and MAY change their minds.
I could spend forever trying to argue with you as to why maps take as long as they do and the majority of mappers here would agree with me but elect0 if you think it is that simple then.....
Id challenge you to make a map the way you suggested :P
TLDR; The flawed gameplay design, the inconsistent rules of the game and the lack of UWE support has made community mapping a painstaking process.
Introduction
I have been wanting to write this post for a long time now. A lot of mistakes have been made by the developers IMO and we can conclusively see how those mistakes are panning out today. I wanted to highlight a few things so maybe we can all learn something from this horrendous mapping process. Flame if you like, but I am hoping some good discussions can come out of this.
Rules of the Game Keep Changing
It's really difficult to map when the rules keep changing. NS2 started out with being optimized with 5 tech point locations. This created a huge difficulty creating "Balanced" maps that would foster a reliable and unbiased gaming experience for players. Maps with symmetrical features are not only easier to create, but also allow players to learn the maps faster and are easier to balance. Tell me how many ways you can split 5 tech points evenly?
Now the game is arguably balanced for either 4 or 5 tech points. Mappers can rejoice because they can create 4 tech point maps. NS1 Remake Mappers can rejoice because they can re-create NS1 maps without having to add a tech point somewhere. But this change set back the entire mapping community because what worked before may not necessarily translate well into post build 250.
The rules are still currently changing. Who knows what work well in a year or 2 from now.
Current Successful Maps
Summit is probably the best. 9 Res Nodes, 4 Tech points in a circle and 1 in the middle, with the sacred RT-TP-RT-TP chain. Now look at the 2 maps that were created by UWE post-release. Descent and Biodome are basically summit 2.0 and 3.0 respectively.
I personally believe UWE did this because they were scared to release a map that did not play well. They decided to play it safe and create a map knowing what has worked well in the past. Sadly, Summit's layout is the best and only feasible layout in NS2.
Tram is very close to being balanced. However, it became clear in the competitive scene that whoever started on the side with the 2 north tech points had a clear advantage. (This also resulted from poor planning of the Server Room / Mezzanine). The Pentagon shaped layout has a lot of potential, but it was not executed correctly.
Unsuccessful Maps
Aside from the 2 layouts I described above, 95% of other layouts are simply unfeasible.
Look at Mineshaft: Non symmetrical and is very uneven. IMO it plays well in the public scene but plays terribly in an organized 6 v 6. (Scrimming on mineshaft was a terrible experience)
Docking: This map is an example of EVERYTHING I am trying to say. This map has undergone so many changes it has been hard to keep track. After all of the changes, the map still plays like shit in the competitive scene. It was not included in the current season because nobody really cared to give it a shot. Historically, the map either has 2 neighboring tech points or 2 neighboring RT points. The sacred TP-RT-TP-RT chain was broken because there needs to be ONE more room in between Bar, Cafe, and Terminal. The original docking had an rt in landing pad and the sacred RT-TP flow was preserved. This proved to be unbalanced because it was basically a free RT and landing pad now serves as a really nice hallway.
It should not be this way. Maps should not have to confine to a RT-TP-RT-TP chain to be successful. This is an inherent flaw in the game play design and cannot be fixed. I know lots of people will shout veil but that map is not nearly as balanced as summit. Before the dome changes, pipeline was really unbalanced. After the changes, the map plays much better, but is still inferior to summit.
NS1 Maps do not work well in NS2
UWE should have known that people were going to attempt to re-create NS1 maps rather than creating their own. It's always easier to copy what has already been done that do have the imagination to make something from scratch. Many maps have been in production since before the game came out and none have been released. The ones that have been released as grey box test versions all play terrible (Sorry Flat). As a mapper, its hard to devote HUNDREDS of hours into a map that will never play well. This is why I am assuming almost all ns1 maps have never been finished. (Kudos FMPONE, I couldn't use ALL in that statement).
Moving Forward
There really has not been that much support from UWE in the community mapping process. Charlie promised that they would pay the community for maps. When I submitted Jambi to Cory he said it was too bland and generic to be an official ns2 map. I 100% agree with Cory: Jambi is not nearly as pretty as official ns2 maps, but it plays well. (As evidenced by being included in ENSL). There is more to maps than just looks...
OK, I am not saying UWE should start to pay anybody for maps, but some basic support would come a long way. Here are some ways UWE can help:
@Howser (and others) have been keeping the ns2 mapping community afloat with weekly custom map testing sessions. Every week him and many others devote their time to give community mappers feedback on their maps. From what I understand (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong) UWE donates ENSL a few servers. It would be a huge help if UWE could sponsor a server or 2 dedicated to public map testing.
Furthermore, the ENSL staff was nice enough to include a custom map cup to help mappers get competitive feedback for their maps. Unfortunately there has been only one the past year, and another is planned for after season 3. UWE could simply host a custom map tournament and they do not even need to award prize money. An awesome private badge to the winning teams could be a big enough incentive for a bunch of teams to participate.
Marketing: A simple front page news post informing the entire community that the mapping community has public testing could go a long way.
It's simple stuff like these suggestions which could really help out. Not everything revolves around money. It's not too late to help out.
-xtcmen
i think the reason why greybox recreations of ns1 maps play poorly is because they are greybox maps, In ns2 you have to flesh out the rooms with nook and crannies for aliens to hide in and objects to block marine los otherwise the map will not play well and greybox games just wont work. So it cant ever be an exact copy.
I couldn't find either of those. I can suggest what to do though. Use Notepad++ and use find in files to search for both of those. All model files have readable paths to materials, if you can't find it in materials that are used in the map then look in .model files. All material files list their materials used. Most likely in one of those types since I couldn't find it in the editor
Edit: talking about a model not a material. Yes, a find model feature would be nice too.
Comments
Even if they do run them, people still don't play them. All these great game modes out there going unplayed. Not once have I seen someone play faded LS xenoswarm or classic in the last 6 months.
The latter two, sometimes. LS not.
Mappers are kind of wasting their time at this point if a server is downloading the latest version off of the workshop but clients can't join. I thought that if you join a server running a map or mod the game downloads the map or mod automatically for you and then you just join and play. today this was not the case... Booooooo!
Yeah mappers are wasting their time because either a) Steam workshop is working like crap or b) a bug in programming.
Ie. Jambi with jambi_black.material, you need to add that to excludes for the map to work, for example.
I have been looking since the end of time for this jambi_black.material. I cannot find it for the life of me. I don't know who put it in there (it certainly was not me) and I have 0 contact with any of the mappers that made it.
Any ideas on how to search for it?
"ignore": [ "materials/refinery/jambi_black.material", "models/marine/male/male_black_ammo.material" ]
Yes, create a dummy texture file with that name (copy another texture and give it that name and put it where it should), then use the "Select by texture" feature in the editor to select all faces with that texture and change it to another texture. That should do the trick. Also, these errors come up in NSL Jambi, not sure if normal Jambi has the problem.
Looks like it is a clear glass. So just change it to something else.
Is in nsl and normal version.
The mapping community is alive. There is more that could be done but it may happen in the future? eitherway we all know
NEW STUFF KEEPS PEOPLE PLAYING THE GAME.
I remember the complaints about jambi being too big or some combat maps people just didn't like because they were different, fun or imperfect maps are frowned upon by some it seems, they may prefer dull a to b maps with no interesting features, it's a shame when people invest a lot of time and love into a map only for it to go unplayed or trash talked.
I suggest mappers take a simpler approach to getting maps out quicker while still looking good. forget excessive grey boxing and detail work, with the amount of models and textures we have there's really no need to leave areas looking dull and boring for so long, dump some models and slap some textures to get a general style going, from there you can improve as much as you like but at least you'll have something, don't try to match the quality of the official maps, you can get there eventually but no need to early on.
The biggest time waste must be detail work, geometry and texturing, i've seen videos on youtube where some mappers spend hours making sure textures are aligned on some small curved geometry or floor bump, this is really the most time consuming stuff and should be left for later or not bothered with beyond the basics, remember how simple maps used to be, all that mattered was how fun and playable they were, they often didn't look great but they weren't bad either, now we have enough models to get something that looks good and can be done in a reasonable time in theory, as long as mappers don't waste it on details or perfection early on.
I challenge mappers to start making maps this way, see how fast you can get a mostly model based map out, i bet it takes weeks instead of months.
I wish this would be so simple as it may sounds but it's not. That is why you see just dull grayboxes with nothing of interest with few detailed rooms. If you'd make a map for any other game you'd realise that NS2 is probably the most complex game to make a map. For example, you can make a nice detailed map for CSGO in few months because the gameplay is really simple, you just have to have 2 spawns, 2 bombsites and take account timings and the fact that players use hit scan weapons. That is usually just making 6 rooms and connecting those with corridors.
in NS2 you have to take notice in timings, how big the rooms and how wide and long the corridors are for skulks to be effective, make sure there are enough vents, how many techpoints and resnodes are enough for a balanced game, spawn locations, arc distances, bottle necks... it is just so complex and if you don't take these things into account, players will notice these things and will exploit them to the point that the map can be considered broken.
What this means is that a lot of experimentation and re-iteration is required. Putting some textures and models into a map which is going to be fully remade eventually, which might please your eyes, is just a waste of time.
As for kodiak I am doing somthing the game does not have props for (other than rocks) that I could use and because of this I dont want to use lots of refinery / docking / veil / descent etc props to flesh it out. People would get the wrong idea as to what my maps theme is, as soon as people see your map they decide if they like it or not and that sticks with them forever they will not be willing to give it a second chance, if it has random stuff placed all over they wont think highly of it. If its greybox they wont think highly of it but they will come back and try it again still being open minded when it has been more fleshed out and MAY change their minds.
I could spend forever trying to argue with you as to why maps take as long as they do and the majority of mappers here would agree with me but elect0 if you think it is that simple then.....
Id challenge you to make a map the way you suggested :P
i think the reason why greybox recreations of ns1 maps play poorly is because they are greybox maps, In ns2 you have to flesh out the rooms with nook and crannies for aliens to hide in and objects to block marine los otherwise the map will not play well and greybox games just wont work. So it cant ever be an exact copy.
@samusdroid @mendasp
I couldn't find either of those. I can suggest what to do though. Use Notepad++ and use find in files to search for both of those. All model files have readable paths to materials, if you can't find it in materials that are used in the map then look in .model files. All material files list their materials used. Most likely in one of those types since I couldn't find it in the editor
Edit: talking about a model not a material. Yes, a find model feature would be nice too.