State of NS2 Community Mapping
TLDR; The flawed gameplay design, the inconsistent rules of the game and the lack of UWE support has made community mapping a painstaking process.
Introduction
I have been wanting to write this post for a long time now. A lot of mistakes have been made by the developers IMO and we can conclusively see how those mistakes are panning out today. I wanted to highlight a few things so maybe we can all learn something from this horrendous mapping process. Flame if you like, but I am hoping some good discussions can come out of this.
Rules of the Game Keep Changing
It's really difficult to map when the rules keep changing. NS2 started out with being optimized with 5 tech point locations. This created a huge difficulty creating "Balanced" maps that would foster a reliable and unbiased gaming experience for players. Maps with symmetrical features are not only easier to create, but also allow players to learn the maps faster and are easier to balance. Tell me how many ways you can split 5 tech points evenly?
Now the game is arguably balanced for either 4 or 5 tech points. Mappers can rejoice because they can create 4 tech point maps. NS1 Remake Mappers can rejoice because they can re-create NS1 maps without having to add a tech point somewhere. But this change set back the entire mapping community because what worked before may not necessarily translate well into post build 250.
The rules are still currently changing. Who knows what work well in a year or 2 from now.
Current Successful Maps
Summit is probably the best. 9 Res Nodes, 4 Tech points in a circle and 1 in the middle, with the sacred RT-TP-RT-TP chain. Now look at the 2 maps that were created by UWE post-release. Descent and Biodome are basically summit 2.0 and 3.0 respectively.
I personally believe UWE did this because they were scared to release a map that did not play well. They decided to play it safe and create a map knowing what has worked well in the past. Sadly, Summit's layout is the best and only feasible layout in NS2.
Tram is very close to being balanced. However, it became clear in the competitive scene that whoever started on the side with the 2 north tech points had a clear advantage. (This also resulted from poor planning of the Server Room / Mezzanine). The Pentagon shaped layout has a lot of potential, but it was not executed correctly.
Unsuccessful Maps
Aside from the 2 layouts I described above, 95% of other layouts are simply unfeasible.
Look at Mineshaft: Non symmetrical and is very uneven. IMO it plays well in the public scene but plays terribly in an organized 6 v 6. (Scrimming on mineshaft was a terrible experience)
Docking: This map is an example of EVERYTHING I am trying to say. This map has undergone so many changes it has been hard to keep track. After all of the changes, the map still plays like shit in the competitive scene. It was not included in the current season because nobody really cared to give it a shot. Historically, the map either has 2 neighboring tech points or 2 neighboring RT points. The sacred TP-RT-TP-RT chain was broken because there needs to be ONE more room in between Bar, Cafe, and Terminal. The original docking had an rt in landing pad and the sacred RT-TP flow was preserved. This proved to be unbalanced because it was basically a free RT and landing pad now serves as a really nice hallway.
It should not be this way. Maps should not have to confine to a RT-TP-RT-TP chain to be successful. This is an inherent flaw in the game play design and cannot be fixed. I know lots of people will shout veil but that map is not nearly as balanced as summit. Before the dome changes, pipeline was really unbalanced. After the changes, the map plays much better, but is still inferior to summit.
NS1 Maps do not work well in NS2
UWE should have known that people were going to attempt to re-create NS1 maps rather than creating their own. It's always easier to copy what has already been done that do have the imagination to make something from scratch. Many maps have been in production since before the game came out and none have been released. The ones that have been released as grey box test versions all play terrible (Sorry Flat). As a mapper, its hard to devote HUNDREDS of hours into a map that will never play well. This is why I am assuming almost all ns1 maps have never been finished. (Kudos FMPONE, I couldn't use ALL in that statement).
Moving Forward
There really has not been that much support from UWE in the community mapping process. Charlie promised that they would pay the community for maps. When I submitted Jambi to Cory he said it was too bland and generic to be an official ns2 map. I 100% agree with Cory: Jambi is not nearly as pretty as official ns2 maps, but it plays well. (As evidenced by being included in ENSL). There is more to maps than just looks...
OK, I am not saying UWE should start to pay anybody for maps, but some basic support would come a long way. Here are some ways UWE can help:
@Howser (and others) have been keeping the ns2 mapping community afloat with weekly custom map testing sessions. Every week him and many others devote their time to give community mappers feedback on their maps. From what I understand (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong) UWE donates ENSL a few servers. It would be a huge help if UWE could sponsor a server or 2 dedicated to public map testing.
Furthermore, the ENSL staff was nice enough to include a custom map cup to help mappers get competitive feedback for their maps. Unfortunately there has been only one the past year, and another is planned for after season 3. UWE could simply host a custom map tournament and they do not even need to award prize money. An awesome private badge to the winning teams could be a big enough incentive for a bunch of teams to participate.
Marketing: A simple front page news post informing the entire community that the mapping community has public testing could go a long way.
It's simple stuff like these suggestions which could really help out. Not everything revolves around money. It's not too late to help out.
-xtcmen
Introduction
I have been wanting to write this post for a long time now. A lot of mistakes have been made by the developers IMO and we can conclusively see how those mistakes are panning out today. I wanted to highlight a few things so maybe we can all learn something from this horrendous mapping process. Flame if you like, but I am hoping some good discussions can come out of this.
Rules of the Game Keep Changing
It's really difficult to map when the rules keep changing. NS2 started out with being optimized with 5 tech point locations. This created a huge difficulty creating "Balanced" maps that would foster a reliable and unbiased gaming experience for players. Maps with symmetrical features are not only easier to create, but also allow players to learn the maps faster and are easier to balance. Tell me how many ways you can split 5 tech points evenly?
Now the game is arguably balanced for either 4 or 5 tech points. Mappers can rejoice because they can create 4 tech point maps. NS1 Remake Mappers can rejoice because they can re-create NS1 maps without having to add a tech point somewhere. But this change set back the entire mapping community because what worked before may not necessarily translate well into post build 250.
The rules are still currently changing. Who knows what work well in a year or 2 from now.
Current Successful Maps
Summit is probably the best. 9 Res Nodes, 4 Tech points in a circle and 1 in the middle, with the sacred RT-TP-RT-TP chain. Now look at the 2 maps that were created by UWE post-release. Descent and Biodome are basically summit 2.0 and 3.0 respectively.
I personally believe UWE did this because they were scared to release a map that did not play well. They decided to play it safe and create a map knowing what has worked well in the past. Sadly, Summit's layout is the best and only feasible layout in NS2.
Tram is very close to being balanced. However, it became clear in the competitive scene that whoever started on the side with the 2 north tech points had a clear advantage. (This also resulted from poor planning of the Server Room / Mezzanine). The Pentagon shaped layout has a lot of potential, but it was not executed correctly.
Unsuccessful Maps
Aside from the 2 layouts I described above, 95% of other layouts are simply unfeasible.
Look at Mineshaft: Non symmetrical and is very uneven. IMO it plays well in the public scene but plays terribly in an organized 6 v 6. (Scrimming on mineshaft was a terrible experience)
Docking: This map is an example of EVERYTHING I am trying to say. This map has undergone so many changes it has been hard to keep track. After all of the changes, the map still plays like shit in the competitive scene. It was not included in the current season because nobody really cared to give it a shot. Historically, the map either has 2 neighboring tech points or 2 neighboring RT points. The sacred TP-RT-TP-RT chain was broken because there needs to be ONE more room in between Bar, Cafe, and Terminal. The original docking had an rt in landing pad and the sacred RT-TP flow was preserved. This proved to be unbalanced because it was basically a free RT and landing pad now serves as a really nice hallway.
It should not be this way. Maps should not have to confine to a RT-TP-RT-TP chain to be successful. This is an inherent flaw in the game play design and cannot be fixed. I know lots of people will shout veil but that map is not nearly as balanced as summit. Before the dome changes, pipeline was really unbalanced. After the changes, the map plays much better, but is still inferior to summit.
NS1 Maps do not work well in NS2
UWE should have known that people were going to attempt to re-create NS1 maps rather than creating their own. It's always easier to copy what has already been done that do have the imagination to make something from scratch. Many maps have been in production since before the game came out and none have been released. The ones that have been released as grey box test versions all play terrible (Sorry Flat). As a mapper, its hard to devote HUNDREDS of hours into a map that will never play well. This is why I am assuming almost all ns1 maps have never been finished. (Kudos FMPONE, I couldn't use ALL in that statement).
Moving Forward
There really has not been that much support from UWE in the community mapping process. Charlie promised that they would pay the community for maps. When I submitted Jambi to Cory he said it was too bland and generic to be an official ns2 map. I 100% agree with Cory: Jambi is not nearly as pretty as official ns2 maps, but it plays well. (As evidenced by being included in ENSL). There is more to maps than just looks...
OK, I am not saying UWE should start to pay anybody for maps, but some basic support would come a long way. Here are some ways UWE can help:
@Howser (and others) have been keeping the ns2 mapping community afloat with weekly custom map testing sessions. Every week him and many others devote their time to give community mappers feedback on their maps. From what I understand (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong) UWE donates ENSL a few servers. It would be a huge help if UWE could sponsor a server or 2 dedicated to public map testing.
Furthermore, the ENSL staff was nice enough to include a custom map cup to help mappers get competitive feedback for their maps. Unfortunately there has been only one the past year, and another is planned for after season 3. UWE could simply host a custom map tournament and they do not even need to award prize money. An awesome private badge to the winning teams could be a big enough incentive for a bunch of teams to participate.
Marketing: A simple front page news post informing the entire community that the mapping community has public testing could go a long way.
It's simple stuff like these suggestions which could really help out. Not everything revolves around money. It's not too late to help out.
-xtcmen
Comments
NS1 maps were massive undertakings, sometimes require complete redesigns to become even remotely playable, let alone balanced. Its no surprise to see NS2 maps having similar problems. Most of the problems for NS2 maps really comes down to a couple key problems - dedicated 'map testers' are extremely hard to find AND keep, much less find ones that can offer the kind of feedback that will improve a map. Beyond that, you still need a mapper with a lot of dedication to keep improving, fixing and changing the map, and also to have a good creative vision for the final version of the map, and a good basic design to promote interesting gameplay. A good example of that is veil - the map plays very different from the other maps, and because of that it is one of the more popular maps in some aspects (i think).
I wouldn't expect the game to keep changing like 250, I think that's a really poor argument to use in support of a struggling mapping community... especially when any of those changes that would require map changes would essentially break all current official maps?...
TLDR your making maps for an indie/niche game which requires quite careful attention to detail and balance, in a larger then average level size... its not going to be easy.
Thanks for your reply.
To your first point: NS2 plays BEST when there is an rt-TP chain. Almost every map in the ENSL map pool has this chain (except VEIL, which is not as balanced as the other maps)
Look at all the maps without this chain. Mine shaft, refinery, docking. None of them have a perfect rt-TP Chain. Look at the maps created post-release. All follow summit's layout. Which is why I believe summit is perceived as the best layout.
All NS1 maps did not have this chain and they were fine. The game design confines how maps can be made, which is why the mapping community is struggling.
Second point: 250 changed a lot. The reason why all current maps did not alter was because the 5th tech point is now optional. The aliens can reach full tech (but max bio mass) with only 3 hives. Marines can reach full tech (except dual exos) on 1 tech point. The need for a 5th tech point became less valuable post build 250. Which in turn made it more feasible to create a 4 tech point map.
Firstly the SCC group isn't really in need of financial support or of more servers. We have enough trouble filling our current one and split between our most active/involved members the costs of running our little corner of the internet are very manageable. Though I appreciate the consideration and mention.
Making a map for a game that is in constant flux is a challenge. That said I don't think the changes have ever really affected the fundamentals of map design, the range of 4-5 tech points and 9-11 RT's has been established from quite early on. Also the optimum scale and complexity of connections has not really changed. I would say most changes to balance could be fixed by adding/removing more cover or vents.
I do completely agree that the choice of map layouts are extremely limited. I think this is mainly due to the cyst system forcing linear expansion on aliens. Which is why NS 1 remakes fail. Gorges can no longer go off to some random location and secure it. Maybe making gorge tunnels behave like extensions of cyst chains would solve this issue to some extent. Couple that with random spawns and the only real option is a wagon wheel. LOS and the need to accommodate multiple life forms also really restricts the scale of rooms.
Another issue is the disparity between competitive and pub play. Its essentially two different games. This is partly due to the fact a lot of popular pub servers are 18+ players and comp players will find and exploit any flaws in your maps design. When starting a map I would really suggest deciding on either group and try accommodate to that sort of player range and player style.
As an example; A few months ago I felt fracture was consistently producing good games on a 18 player games and I was almost ready to move onto art.... until I pushed it onto a few comp teams and some serious flaws came up. Make a choice before you start designing your map. I've now decided to focus entirely producing a competitive map.
The only thing I disagree on is Caged not playing well it's actually a very wagon-wheel like map and flat is making a lot of progress with improving it. Although these improvements mean it's layout is straying further away from the original design but its certainly good at the moment and getting better.
it's late and I'm blabbering. Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to actually write. Bed time!
As for 250, sure it changed alot, but as you said didnt require massive map reworking.. which kind of makes that point moot - there will probably never been another patch that has even 10% of the amount of changes that 250 had.
I think the biggest thing hurting the community mapping scene is the state of the game, not necessarily the design rules that are placed upon the mappers, but more the game mechanics and the 'fun' aspect of playing. There were NS1 maps with horrible balance but they still proved fun to play on pubs, and became somewhat popular because of that.
Interesting Gameplay > Absolute Balance.
2) The tools are still lacking features and buggy, making some people shy away from making maps. Those who do make them have to put up with the bugs all the time.
3) Some people might be discouraged to make a map just to see it never get played like 75% of the other maps out there. I mean really, when do you see a custom map get played on a public server other than the few dedicated to playing custom maps. Very few.
4) Limited layouts on what you can do.
5) Some people don't have the motivation to finish a map/experience.
6 )Spark is not as widely known as Hammer for example. Which is a shame because it has a lot of potential and is a great engine.
7) Hard to create a map that plays well in both competitive and public games. Having competitive players and public players play it is CRUCIAL and I don't there are enough cups like you mentioned.
8) Things like modspots should happen more often. Recently Hugh did a few modspots of Kodiak and the other custom maps, which is great!
Those are some of the problems I see.
Heck, look at all the game modes out there no one plays! I have never ever seen anyone play Faded, Last Stand, Xenoswarm, Classic, or any of the other ones but Combat and LFBM. That disappoints me tbh. People put a lot of work into making mods that end up rarely if ever being used.
What I think should happen and be really cool is if the community did another portals, but a regular mode map. All the best mappers out there teaming up to create one REALLY good map, good enough to become official. Don't tell me we don't have talented mappers out there, NS2 has had and still has some of the best mappers out there. If everyone focused their efforts together surely a good map could come of it.
I think with the RT TP RT TP that might work well for comp games as it is balanced / fair but when I realised my map has not got a bat in hells chance of becoming a comp map I threw that out of the window and ive got TP RT RT TP or TP RT MASSIVE OPEN SPACE / GAP TP etc now on the games we play on the scc server it seems to work ok but that’s it we are just mappers / pubs. It is very hard to get comp players to come and play something that is "part grey box" with out the OMG ITS GREYBOX THIS IS MARINE BIASED MAP, err no aliens win 95% of the time on this map (although with the current balance of the game marines are winning 75% of the time now). So rethinking map layout again to get this to 50/50. I am only spending as much time as I do now mapping for kodiak + ayumi because I know that they get played regularly on I think 3 servers and I get feedback from those who play it SCC / NA custom map server (sorry @ghoulofGSG I don’t know your server otherwise Id join you). This helps when mapping and keeps you motivated but as a MAPPER you need to be open minded and willing to obliterate anything on your map to make it work.
I intend to submit both ayumi and kodiak to the custom map cup when it happens but need to see the submission rules first.
I really disagree with the NS1 maps for NS2 idea. IF the NS1 remakes are done by a DEDICATED mapper who is willing to put in a LOT and I mean A LOT of effort in to getting it to play well in NS2 it will eventually succeed. Having said this there is an expectation that the NS1 is not allowed to change for NS2 even when there are clear reasons for it to change. As a mapper you open yourself up to a flame war if heaven forbid you removed my favourite corner from that one ns1 map. I know flat and I want to make caged / ayumi work well however we want to try to stick to the original layout as best we can.
A lot of community mappers seem to think that they can thrash out a map within a week and be done with it. But if you’re after creating a really good map with visuals etc then its going to take months and months many people do not realise this. Many custom mappers dont even like being given advice on making the map look better I have tried but they dont care.
Hugh did a kick ass job for kodiak and I hope he can spare more time in the future to do it again for other maps!
I have no idea if UWE still are after custom maps in order to make them official if they are it would be nice to know or a link with guidelines etc on getting to that stage. It would give a lot of people something to aim for. Hell even if it was just to get your map put on rotation on the official servers never mind UWE purchasing your map just so more people can play it. As more people = more feedback = better map !
@xdragon if you had an EU map tester group you might be able to get more people. Id love to do it but you play at NA times
It could potentially be better, and a generally better interface for making maps means people like me could try making them :P
One thing you didn't mention however is the different gamemodes, combat & xenoform as large examples. Combat maps can be easier to make, people can just take a standard map and cut it down (not always with success, CO_veil anyone?). My point is very roundabout, but also consider some unoffical maps as successful too
The choice to opt for a proven system (TP->RT, wagon wheel layout, etc) is easy to make if you don't want to spend ages painstakingly going over feedback and reiterating your layout---a layout that will likely be greyboxed if you don't want to destroy too much work constantly, which limits the number of people even wanting to play your map. Right now I feel the working layouts we're aware of are the wagonwheel (still quite a few variations possible there) and Veil's (which I would identify as a more linear symmetrical layout---two paths from MS branching out into more paths down south towards the other TP's).
Inclusion in the current NSL season and having watched competitive teams play Caged in preparation for it taught me some very important new things about my map that had never come to light during our own pubby map tests. With the big balance patch happening recently before it, the map almost instantly switched from seemingly alien biased to very marine biased. I do believe that in principle a map that is balanced for competitive play is also balanced for pub play. That said, I also believe the current game balance is not where it should be, which makes me nervous about the changes I am working on. What if I alter all these things, and then the OP marine strafe jump gets nerfed and suddenly game balance flips around again?
I... I didn't really have a point here that I was trying to make, I just wanted to chime in with whatever I had on my mind.
I'd like to see us (as a mapping community) start playing more wildly with different layouts and see what gameplay we can provoke. For example, Jambi and Veil have introduced us to the lockdown map. There's one point on each map that you have little option but to try and lock down first. Then, a decent portion of the game is then spent trying to assault/hold that spot.
Personally, I've been playing with the idea of an attrition map - largely linear; easy for both teams to tech up; relatively easy to defend in the middle; relatively easy to assault at either end.
Mapping is hard. The rules are constantly changing. But mapping is not hard because the rules are changing all the time (see posts above). Maps that worked fine pre250 work still fine.
A map is defined by more than just the TP/RT layout - routes are important, too. Descent and Biodome offer quite different routes (especially Descent) to various RTs.
For example: Try (on Descent) to get from Gravity to Plaza. You have three choices: Via Launch, via Hydro, or in between (don't remember the location right now).
If you want to get from Comp Labs to Crevice, you have to go via whatever-the-left-techpoint-is-called-again or Crossroads. The same for every other two RTs.
As you said, Mineshaft plays very well in pubs. Docking... is a difficult case indeed.
There are a) not enough servers running custom maps and b) there is a lack of reward for creating a NS2 map, because of a) and because the small, shrinking playerbase will make your map a map for a dead game sooner or later.
"You have a nice aligned grid over there.
Would be a shame if something... happened to it..."
I dare you to work with diagonals.
Hell, even with simple boxes I can manage to throw off the grid...
you need a well rounded outer ring to make distances for both teams have relatively fair access and travel times to the central/neutral areas. Rounder rings are better!
Travel times need to be fairly even for both teams. Too small and marines will rush down alien expansion easily, too big and the map feels slow and spread out. So maps all have to be a similar size especially for comp play.
You're also limited with the scale of rooms and corridors. Large spaces just aren't fun to fight in not to mention the LOS issues.
Connectivity is very important. Too many or too few routes can have really negative effects on game-play. I still think the sloop diagrams are really valuable in understanding the kind of complexity you are restricted to. 5-7 Loops seems to be the optimum amount.
Don't get me wrong though I have really enjoyed mapping for NS2. I've long since accepted the limitations of the mapping and I feel they actually add to the fun and challenge of making a good map. There's enough possibilities to make maps different from each-other. I just don't expect any successful unique map layouts are going to be found.
*Rage inducing comment Inbound! read with caution*
Now I think a lot of the problems lie with us as mappers. We need to up our game and make some exceptional content because right now there's nothing that's really outstanding or overly interesting. Too many mappers focus on making 'Cool idea bro' maps or Arty rooms that generally never get finished. There seems to be a distinct lack of investment in people following proper mapping procedures and focusing on making great maps within the limitations of a good ns2 map and as such the vast majority of maps are quite hard to play and riddled with bad ideas.
~X(
Not even any amount of aligning to grid can help you there.
It becomes really entertaining when you manage to get your Geo off grid half a 0.13m.
Where is your god now *evil laughter*
There are many current limitations to map design due to inherent limits placed on us by spark. There are workarounds i.e. jim wests extra entity mod but a lot of us mappers will not use this in case a patch breaks it then we have to wait for jimwest to update it. Which he may or may not do quickly or at all if he ever decides to stop playing. Kodiak is not a perfect circle however its more a circle now than previously but I refused to make it anymore summit like ! I have tried my best to work around the limits but there are limits on the work arounds
People want new stuff but what else is there new to add? Maybe we should create another community NS map like jambi (not co they just had portals!). What might be worth trying to do is more atmospheric maps yeah sure we have narrow dark corridors / rooms but that is not what I mean. They are not claustrophobic; you as a player do not have a sense of loneliness lost in space on some ship or station. You don’t walk around a corner in to a glass hallway and go wow I am space the middle of nowhere, or I am on some desolate god forsaken planet.
What I think I can safely say is that the devs DO look at what we have here they just do not always respond. Also we have a very good group of current active mappers here on the forums, helping each other out, making tutorials, helping on issues with each other’s maps, testing maps for each other, giving feedback etc, you might not find this in every game CNC 3 was a nightmare lol
1. The ability to group layers in folders.
2. Being able to chose which face the grid is referring to, and locking it.
I'm sure there's a lot more, but this second feature would make mapping sooooooooo(o x 10^15) much easier.
Weld vertex to line or face/snap to line. Would solve a lot of problems. That plus a make parallel/perpendicular feature.
Or the ability to make the grid absolute. Currently, it's rather dynamic (= annoying).
*Warning, incoherent rambling and grammar mistakes ahead!*
Although, I cannot comment about the "gameplay changing" issue, because I haven't played vanilla NS2 for long time and the recent changes missed by approx 80 million miles (avg distance from Earth to Mars, *wink* *wink*). Biomass? WTF?.
But what I personally feel, is the growing flustration with the way how UWE support the modding community. I am not that much frustrated by technical problems, occurring after every few patches, but what lets me down is the lack of communication and support. And trust me, I am lurking this mapping forum for near a decade (had different account back then) and I can count the number of post from each developer on the fingers of one hand (with few exceptions maybe of two, more I don't have).
Also, just look at the front page and look what you can find her beside the developer updates? Just big pile of annoucements for a E-Sport tournaments for some (in global scale) niche computer game (despite people doing awesome job out there). Where are the news about custom mods, maps and servers? I don't think that NSL is the way how to keep the player base.
(NOTE: One exception is Combat mode, which is sometimes mentioned in Twitter feed. Also Hugh did 2 short videos about Fracture and Kodiak, other modding videos are about year old).
But, the pitty is, that in the first place, this is the biggest loss for UWE. The modding community is the cheapest way how they can extend the lifespan for this game. For just few hours of their time per week, they can get an army of dedicated people expanding this game for free, faster than they could do in 7 people.
I do not demand, that Devs should spend all their time in Mapping and Modding forums. But for example - something that everybody here in Mapping would appreciate, will be just basic info about any ETA when the major bugs from Editor will be fixed. Just any form of acknowledgement that somebody atleast reads our suggestions. I am assured that just few hours from their workweek spent on forums would do a miracle for the morale of the modding community and will boost the productivity.
I think the developers really do not realize how powerful asset they got in this community. So I am suggesting that, we the Mapping and Modding community, we should get our heads together and should write an Official appeal letter to the UWE stating our concerns.
I think that has UWE has already clearly stated that after Reinforced failure, they will slowly pull out from the development of NS2. Why not to offer helping hand for keeping the NS2 sustainable? I think its up to UWE and how they will utilize the creative community which formed behind this game. At least they can give it a try. An official map pack with "quality control" for starters?
So what do ya think?
You are sick, sick person, do you know?
Expanding on Rudy's suggestion for more UWE involvement with the community: What I would like to see is more openness and interaction with the official mappers and the projects they are working on. I understand UWE likes to surprise us all with big announcements as they can generate short bursts of hype and a few sales. but looking at the player numbers these soon die down and really have no long term benefits for the wider community. I think Monthly (or so) blog updates from mappers would be a much better approach. Not only would they be helpful/educational for us community mappers but also generate more long-term investment, interest and engagement from the wider community. This in no way would prevent UWE's doing the big announcements, everyone who reads the forums has already purchased and is invested in the game surely!?
eclipse is hardly a secret to the dedicated community. Why not try another approach with releasing maps and information on them?! Lets see grey-box tests matches, concept art, hear about failed ideas and planned improvements. lets start some serious discussion. There really is no reason for keeping us in the dark with the maps in development. Blogs like this work wonders for Wolfires Overgrowth. At least try it with one of the maps?!
As for the rest of the devs, I can't really complain. Insane and Hugh seem to be very helpful chaps, I'd suggest you PM them if you have any mapping issues or want publicity for your work (respectively). I think the trick is to meet them half way if you need help.
Thanks to NSL we've been seeing something similar with jambi, caged and the custom map cup(s). But we're yet to see much official support/acknowledgement.
I wonder how busy the official map testing group is these days.
So much this...
The sad reality is the way the game is constructed, feedback is crucial in NS2. It would be cool if UWE could host some custom map servers mixed with regular maps.
Crazy that it hasn't been included in the official map pool.
Hours, weeks, months of work with my map ns2_triad seems it was not very popular, but many people see it has played and congratulated, at some point there was some recognition, I am thrilled beyond knowing that it will never be an official map.
I can not stand my desire mappear so I roll less ambitious projects such as co_maps ...
Please know everyone here in this community that I am proud to be part of it and I marvel at many things you share and teach!
At least that is how I feel and I'm sure others feel the same. I've never played Jambi but I have played on a number of servers that had it in it's Mod List. But I have played some brutally incomplete maps and saw very slow progress or never really made public awareness of its progression. ls_hellevator, ns2_tanith, ns2_nothing come to mind.
On behalf of public players everywhere, I apologize for our ignorance for not knowing where the state of your custom maps are at, but perhaps it's merely a public perception problem. As you mentioned, if these maps were more popular, you would feel more motivated to continue your work. I know thats how I would feel about my videos.
Perhaps I can contribute to the solution by making some videos that focus on map exposure and strategies for both official and custom maps.
In the meantime I think there needs to be greater emphasis on custom maps like Jambi that need a larger light. It worked for L4D2 with Cold Stream.
Maybe you could do a map guide on all the maps? Start with the official maps, but work in some mod maps, and when you're finished with the official maps, focus on the mod maps.
But that would be a lot of work...